Child sacrifice, a transgression/ God sacrifices his only begotten

tdidymas said:

All this sounds nice, but to claim God is not angry "sitting on a high mountain" is a straw man. God is most certainly angry at sinners, since it clearly says, "he who does not believe will not see life, but the wrath of God remains on him." So the one who refuses to believe in Christ remains in disobedience and under God's wrath.

This is critically important in communicating the gospel to the ungodly, because most unbelievers don't think they are wicked in God's sight, and so they have no incentive to seek to be saved from their sinful nature. Most people I've met and heard a response concerning their state of spiritual affairs claim to be "a good person." So people have to be told they are sinners under God's wrath, because they simply don't believe they are, and so they don't have a healthy fear of God. On that, Jesus said, "fear Him who can destroy your body and soul in gehenna."

The good news is that the grace of God (that is, the power of the Spirit in redemption) overcomes unbelief and fear, and induces hope that Christ will save. So it is through the fear of God, that eternal punishment is deserved for every sinner, that the love of God is known and appreciated, by recognizing Christ substituting Himself in the punishment we deserved.

The belief in this doctrine begins a personal relationship with God, in which the individual starts trusting in God's divine help to do all that which pleases God. This relationship strengthens with knowledge, experience, etc., and the testimony from God that He is pleased. Is not that something to rejoice about?

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I am reminded of Dr. Luther's sermon wherein he says, "He who sees God as angry, does not see God rightly; but is as a dark storm cloud has covered His face" We need to be very careful when talking about God's wrath. Wrath is what I behold when I see God hidden behind the dark storm cloud of His righteous glory and holiness; not when I see God revealed and shown to us face-to-face in the Incarnate Person of Jesus Christ, in particular, at the Cross.

Law and Gospel; Deus Absconditus and Deus Revelatus; these are incredibly important concepts that we need to understand exist in dichotomy.

It's not about God being angry, it's about God being holy.
It's not about God being angry, it's about us being sinful.

That's what the wrath of God is: to behold the Holy God as unholy sinners. Because the message we proclaim isn't that God is going to send people to hell unless they get their ducks in a row (and having the right religious program would be one such duck); the message we proclaim is that we are the enemies of God because of our sin. The animosity is a one way street: We hate God, God doesn't hate us. Wrath is about the truth of our condition as utterly sinful as we approach the blinding glory of the Holy God--because we can't. It is entirely too dreadful, as it is written, "It is a terrible thing to fall into the hands of the living God" not because God is angry, but because God is Holy.

-CryptoLutheran

ViaCrucis said:

I am reminded of Dr. Luther's sermon wherein he says, "He who sees God as angry, does not see God rightly; but is as a dark storm cloud has covered His face" We need to be very careful when talking about God's wrath. Wrath is what I behold when I see God hidden behind the dark storm cloud of His righteous glory and holiness; not when I see God revealed and shown to us face-to-face in the Incarnate Person of Jesus Christ, in particular, at the Cross.

Law and Gospel; Deus Absconditus and Deus Revelatus; these are incredibly important concepts that we need to understand exist in dichotomy.

It's not about God being angry, it's about God being holy.
It's not about God being angry, it's about us being sinful.

That's what the wrath of God is: to behold the Holy God as unholy sinners. Because the message we proclaim isn't that God is going to send people to hell unless they get their ducks in a row (and having the right religious program would be one such duck); the message we proclaim is that we are the enemies of God because of our sin. The animosity is a one way street: We hate God, God doesn't hate us. Wrath is about the truth of our condition as utterly sinful as we approach the blinding glory of the Holy God--because we can't. It is entirely too dreadful, as it is written, "It is a terrible thing to fall into the hands of the living God" not because God is angry, but because God is Holy.

-CryptoLutheran

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The Luther quote you cited was him talking about Christians, not unbelievers.

And how do you define "holy" that excludes God's wrathful justice on sinners? It appears to me that you have some obsession with the exclusion of God's anger, as if you think if God is angry at sinners, then He is angry at you, because you're a sinner, and you further think that to appease God's anger you must "get your duckies in a row." That sounds like your thinking is legalistic by nature, as if you don't think of your relationship with God as friendly, as if you can't see God's grace in that relationship.

But for certain, since the Bible says, "he who does not believe will not see life, but the wrath of God remains on him." So from this we see that believers have a grace relationship with God, and therefore God is friendly toward all who believe; but unbelievers are unregenerate and have no interest in obeying Christ, and the wrath of God remains toward them. What distinguishes those whom God loves from those whom God is wrathful toward is whether or not they believe the gospel (and in so doing have repented of their sins).

So then, when I quote the Bible saying that God is angry toward sinners, do you think you are included in that?

tdidymas said:

The Luther quote you cited was him talking about Christians, not unbelievers.

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Correct.

tdidymas said:

And how do you define "holy" that excludes God's wrathful justice on sinners? It appears to me that you have some obsession with the exclusion of God's anger, as if you think if God is angry at sinners, then He is angry at you, because you're a sinner, and you further think that to appease God's anger you must "get your duckies in a row." That sounds like your thinking is legalistic by nature, as if you don't think of your relationship with God as friendly, as if you can't see God's grace in that relationship.

But for certain, since the Bible says, "he who does not believe will not see life, but the wrath of God remains on him." So from this we see that believers have a grace relationship with God, and therefore God is friendly toward all who believe; but unbelievers are unregenerate and have no interest in obeying Christ, and the wrath of God remains toward them. What distinguishes those whom God loves from those whom God is wrathful toward is whether or not they believe the gospel (and in so doing have repented of their sins).

So then, when I quote the Bible saying that God is angry toward sinners, do you think you are included in that?

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My problem isn't with God's wrath. My problem is with a conception of God's wrath that presents a faulty view of God.

You and I are sinners. The fact that we are Christians doesn't change the fact that we are sinners--dirty, rotten, scoundrel sinners. The Old Man remains in us until the day this old mortal flesh expires. That is why the Christian must live penitently, in repentance. That means that insofar as we are sinners the Law speaks against us--and rightly so. So that the Law can, in its preaching, mortify my flesh and drag my knees to the ground in repentance, to grieve over my sin. But the beauty of the Gospel is that the condemnation of the Law does not destroy me. Through faith I behold God in Christ who forgives me all my sin and who is gracious beyond measure, and that I can freely come before and confess my sins, and know I am forgiven, and that grace super-abounds above and beyond all my abounding sin. Not that "if grace super abounds I may go on sinning"; but that if I am Christ's then I belong to God, and if I belong to God then I should no longer be captive to sin and the passions of my flesh--but when I am weak (and I am weak) and where I fail (and I do fail), I can always hope, trust, and be at peace in the Lord who gives me peace and comfort, saying I belong to Him.

So no, my relationship isn't built on legalism, but grace. But I do not ignore the dread truth of the Law and its just condemnation.

For the Law that condemns my unbelieving neighbor condemns me all the same--for sin is sin. The difference isn't in the Law or in the sin; but faith--for faith beholds God in Christ, trusting boldly in God's promises, and therefore beholds not a God obscured by the dread terror of the Law but beholds the God made incarnate in the living, breathing, suffering Jesus Christ.

And the love of God which He has for you and me who have faith is the same love with which He loves the whole world of sinners; for He who became flesh of the Virgin and embraced the shame and pain of the Cross did so for you and me, and He did so for all sinners.

Thus to present wrath and love as though God's wrath applies only to "those people" and God's love only applies to "me and my own" is a radical missing of the mark. It ignores the seriousness of the Law in its condemnation, which is meant to drive you and me as sinners to our knees in humble grief and contrition over our sins; and it ignores the full scope and beauty of the Gospel which is that God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, so that whoever trusts in Him shall not perish but have life eternal.

Wrath is not an emotion God feels toward "the bad people over there". Wrath is when I behold God in the depth of my sin--in my sin, gazing through the condemnation of the Law, I can't see the God who loves me--who loves me in Christ and gives Himself to me in Christ--I see condemnation and death. Because I justly deserve condemnation and death in my sin.

Love, however, God is love. God's love is not an emotion He feels toward those special people; but it is the universal truth of who God is toward Himself and all creation. For God loved before the foundation of all creation, and in that love He made all things, in that love He has caused all creatures to exist, including you and me. And it is that love that He, from beginning to end, intends to bring all things into its perfect conclusion in Christ. God loves the unregenerate sinner no less than He loves you and me. He loves the most contemptable sinner, the sinner who will never believe, just the same as He loves you and me--for that is God's love, without partiality, but full and perfect in Christ, who gave Himself for all upon the cross.

-CryptoLutheran