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Communism- Socialism

Pommer

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Capitalism is not a form of governance. Socialism and Communism are. So no one has died under a capitalist government. But multi millions have under socialist and communist governments.
Capitalism is an economic system that requires government to allow to it to thrive, with moderate regulation (lest it ends up a corporatocracy). Socialism can exist under a democracy. Communism requires the state be “in charge” of everything (hence the need to ax religions which traditionally are a check on secular power).

Here’s the thing, when living under a system, is is very difficult to obtain an objective view of that system.
 
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BCP1928

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Capitalism is not a form of governance. Socialism and Communism are. So no one has died under a capitalist government. But multi millions have under socialist and communist governments.
No, they are all economic systems. Government is still required and there is no necessary connection between those economic systems and any particular form of government. As a practical matter, most of the world's totalitarian regimes--both on the left and on the right--are constitutional representative democracies of some kind, often based on the content of our own Constitution.
 
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rjs330

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No, they are all economic systems. Government is still required and there is no necessary connection between those economic systems and any particular form of government. As a practical matter, most of the world's totalitarian regimes--both on the left and on the right--are constitutional representative democracies of some kind, often based on the content of our own Constitution.

They are all economic systems, but not all are forms of government. Socialism is a form or government as is communism. Capitalism is only an economic system. There is no Capitalist form of government.

Totalitarian regimes may come into power by a Democratic process. But they stay in power by either getting rid or it or taking control of it like basically having fake elections or by threats where people vote the "right way" or else. Or they may just not ever have elections again.

Non-totalitarian regimes, allow free elections and abide by the vote of the people.
 
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RDKirk

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They are all economic systems, but not all are forms of government. Socialism is a form or government as is communism. Capitalism is only an economic system. There is no Capitalist form of government.

Socialism is not a form of government, it is an economic system that can be put into place by several forms of government. Communism is also not a form of government, but it requires a totalitarian government to put it into place. North Korea, for instance, has a fascist form of government and a communist economy.
 
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Hentenza

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Socialism is not a form of government, it is an economic system that can be put into place by several forms of government.
Agreed.
Communism is also not a form of government, but it requires a totalitarian government to put it into place. North Korea, for instance, has a fascist form of government and a communist economy.
Communism is a form of government which is a totalitarian system where a single, authoritarian party controls the sate. A good example is Cuba. I do agree with you about North Korea’s government.
 
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durangodawood

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Socialism is not a form of government, it is an economic system that can be put into place by several forms of government. Communism is also not a form of government, but it requires a totalitarian government to put it into place. North Korea, for instance, has a fascist form of government and a communist economy.
North Korea is essentially a monarchy. What else would we call a hereditary absolutism?
 
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RDKirk

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North Korea is essentially a monarchy. What else would we call a hereditary absolutism?
Fascism, as defined by the Fascists themselves, such as Mussolini, has three primary characteristics:

Organicism: A “blood and soil” view of national identity.

Absolutism: The will of the people is embodied in a single, Inspired Leader.

Political Irrationalism: Citizens must suppress their political will in favor of obedience to the Inspired Leader.

Applying the classical definition of fascism to North Korea shows us:

Organicism = YES North Korea is highly ethnic-nationalist. It promotes a pure Korean identity (especially in contrast to South Korea’s Western influence and multiculturalism). The Juche ideology emphasizes Korean self-reliance, cultural purity, and spiritual unity. Border restrictions, hereditary class status (songbun), and militaristic rituals all promote an organic unity of the nation.

Absolutism = YES The Kim dynasty embodies this entirely: Kim Il-sung became a quasi-deified leader. His successors rule not merely as heads of state, but as infallible patriarchs. The leader is the sole source of law, morality, and national destiny.

Political Irrationalism = YES Independent political will is forbidden. The people are not expected to reason politically, only to obey and venerate the Inspired Leader. Critical thought is suppressed in favor of myth, ritual, and unquestioning loyalty.

People tend to link fascism with the particular kind of "national capitalism" practiced by Nazi Germany, but in fact fascism defines no particular economic system. The mixes of systems used by Mussolini and Franco, for instance, were significantly different from the mix used by Hitler. A fascist government uses whatever economic scheme works for it.

We have tended to consider the DPRK as communist, but it presents a clear case of why Communism is a system of economics and fascism is, separately, a system of government. Though North Korea calls itself socialist, its actual structure lacks Marxist class dialectic, has no functioning worker control of production, preserves an elite caste and hereditary rule.
 
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durangodawood

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Fascism, as defined by the Fascists themselves, such as Mussolini, has three primary characteristics:

Organicism: A “blood and soil” view of national identity.

Absolutism: The will of the people is embodied in a single, Inspired Leader.

Political Irrationalism: Citizens must suppress their political will in favor of obedience to the Inspired Leader.

Applying the classical definition of fascism to North Korea shows us:

Organicism = YES North Korea is highly ethnic-nationalist. It promotes a pure Korean identity (especially in contrast to South Korea’s Western influence and multiculturalism). The Juche ideology emphasizes Korean self-reliance, cultural purity, and spiritual unity. Border restrictions, hereditary class status (songbun), and militaristic rituals all promote an organic unity of the nation.

Absolutism = YES The Kim dynasty embodies this entirely: Kim Il-sung became a quasi-deified leader. His successors rule not merely as heads of state, but as infallible patriarchs. The leader is the sole source of law, morality, and national destiny.

Political Irrationalism = YES Independent political will is forbidden. The people are not expected to reason politically, only to obey and venerate the Inspired Leader. Critical thought is suppressed in favor of myth, ritual, and unquestioning loyalty.

People tend to link fascism with the particular kind of "national capitalism" practiced by Nazi Germany, but in fact fascism defines no particular economic system. The mixes of systems used by Mussolini and Franco, for instance, were significantly different from the mix used by Hitler. A fascist government uses whatever economic scheme works for it.

We have tended to consider the DPRK as communist, but it presents a clear case of why Communism is a system of economics and fascism is, separately, a system of government. Though North Korea calls itself socialist, its actual structure lacks Marxist class dialectic, has no functioning worker control of production, preserves an elite caste and hereditary rule.
Very interesting analysis. It almost seems like fascism is a more spiritually coercive form of monarchy - enabled by the tools of modern propaganda and surveillance.
 
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rjs330

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Is it?

Please describe the socialist form of government.
Yes it is. Or at least can be. Socialism is one of those things that has been and currently is a form of governance. It is also one of those things that can be incorporated into other forms of government in bits and pieces. Thing democratic socialism. It can also be part of a hard core type of government as well.

Socialist Countries 2025

"All that is required is that a country identifies itself as socialist. This includes nations that claim to be socialists or have constitutions that state that they are based on socialism, even if they do not rigidly follow the economic or political systems associated with socialism, because socialism is still the foundation of their political and economic policy."

"Countries that have constitutional references to socialism and are thus considered to be socialist states include: Bangladesh (The People’s Republic of Bangladesh), Eritrea (State of Eritrea), Guyana (Co-operative Republic of Guyana), India (Republic of India), Nepal (Federal Democratic Republic of Nepal), Nicaragua (Republic of Nicaragua), Portugal (Portuguese Republic), Sri Lanka (Democratic Socialist Republic of Sri Lanka), and Tanzania (United Republic of Tanzania)."
 
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rjs330

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Socialism is not a form of government, it is an economic system that can be put into place by several forms of government. Communism is also not a form of government, but it requires a totalitarian government to put it into place. North Korea, for instance, has a fascist form of government and a communist economy.
Socialism certainly can be a form of government, but it doesn't have to be. It can also be used by government as part of governance without being all encompassing. Like Democratic Socialism. See post #230.
 
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durangodawood

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Yes it is. Or at least can be. Socialism is one of those things that has been and currently is a form of governance. It is also one of those things that can be incorporated into other forms of government in bits and pieces. Thing democratic socialism. It can also be part of a hard core type of government as well.

Socialist Countries 2025

"All that is required is that a country identifies itself as socialist. This includes nations that claim to be socialists or have constitutions that state that they are based on socialism, even if they do not rigidly follow the economic or political systems associated with socialism, because socialism is still the foundation of their political and economic policy."

"Countries that have constitutional references to socialism and are thus considered to be socialist states include: Bangladesh (The People’s Republic of Bangladesh), Eritrea (State of Eritrea), Guyana (Co-operative Republic of Guyana), India (Republic of India), Nepal (Federal Democratic Republic of Nepal), Nicaragua (Republic of Nicaragua), Portugal (Portuguese Republic), Sri Lanka (Democratic Socialist Republic of Sri Lanka), and Tanzania (United Republic of Tanzania)."
None of that tells me what is this socialist form of government. What I see instead are countries that have chosen, at least on paper, a commitment to a socialist economic scheme. Obviously getting there is a political goal. But its not indicative of a specific form of government.
 
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rjs330

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None of that tells me what is this socialist form of government. What I see instead are countries that have chosen, at least on paper, a commitment to a socialist economic scheme. Obviously getting there is a political goal. But its not indicative of a specific form of government.
You dont have to believe it, but I did prove that Socialist governments exist. And if you read the article you would see your question answered.

You are a smart guy, you know what socialist government does because you know what socialism is.

You also know that a government doesn't have to be socialist to have some socialist programs.
 
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BCP1928

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You dont have to believe it, but I did prove that Socialist governments exist. And if you read the article you would see your question answered.

You are a smart guy, you know what socialist government does because you know what socialism is.

You also know that a government doesn't have to be socialist to have some socialist programs.
They can have programs that are similar to those of socialist economies, but it's a game anyone can play, from representative democracies all the way to totalitarian hereditary monarchies, all can have programs similar to socialist economies if they want. Even a king can hand out welfare checks.

You just like to use "socialism" as a scare word to describe safety net programs you dislike and we are all well aware of it.
 
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RDKirk

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Yes it is. Or at least can be. Socialism is one of those things that has been and currently is a form of governance. It is also one of those things that can be incorporated into other forms of government in bits and pieces. Thing democratic socialism. It can also be part of a hard core type of government as well.

Socialist Countries 2025

"All that is required is that a country identifies itself as socialist. This includes nations that claim to be socialists or have constitutions that state that they are based on socialism, even if they do not rigidly follow the economic or political systems associated with socialism, because socialism is still the foundation of their political and economic policy."
So, what is the uniquely socialist method of determining the head of state? How are laws formulated and passed? What is the power comparison of the executive to the judicial functions? What definition or description of socialism describes only public governance without reference to economics?
 
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rjs330

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They can have programs that are similar to those of socialist economies, but it's a game anyone can play, from representative democracies all the way to totalitarian hereditary monarchies, all can have programs similar to socialist economies if they want. Even a king can hand out welfare checks.

You just like to use "socialism" as a scare word to describe safety net programs you dislike and we are all well aware of it.
I bet you have no idea what programs I don't like. Well, you might know one.

And all safety net programs are socialist programs. But because we dont have a Socialist government or a Democratic Socialist state the socialist programs are limited.
 
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BCP1928

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I bet you have no idea what programs I don't like. Well, you might know one.

And all safety net programs are socialist programs. But because we dont have a Socialist government or a Democratic Socialist state the socialist programs are limited.
OK, but safety net programs are found in all forms of government., from representative democracies to absolute monarchies. Wht makes them specifically socialist? Sure, the government of a socialist economy will have safety net programs, but so will the governments of capitalist economies.
 
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Hentenza

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OK, but safety net programs are found in all forms of government., from representative democracies to absolute monarchies. Wht makes them specifically socialist? Sure, the government of a socialist economy will have safety net programs, but so will the governments of capitalist economies.
All forms of government do indeed offer some form of safety net program and some are truly needed. However, to a subset of those drawing benefits there is a very real benefits cliff that keeps this subset under the grips of poverty. Those need to be weeded out of these programs.
 
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BCP1928

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All forms of government do indeed offer some form of safety net program and some are truly needed. However, to a subset of those drawing benefits there is a very real benefits cliff that keeps this subset under the grips of poverty. Those need to be weeded out of these programs.
The benefits cliff? What are you talking about? That people are often better off on welfare than working some crappy job?
 
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Hentenza

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