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Ultra Dispensationalism and Right Division
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Guojing
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The resurrected Christ continue to instruct obedience to the Law in Matthew 28:20
James likewise instructs readers to follow the Law in James 2.
Therefore you continue to follow the Law.
Alright then.
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Dan Perez
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And jusr wondering and since brought not only Dispensentistism and Ultra-Dispensatinalist , will you say where you stand
as to your position , and are you a Disbe or and Ulra ?
dan p
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I would say that I am a dispensationalist only insofar as the bible describes dispensations.
The oikonoms (house rule) was used of the head steward of a household. He was the guy to dispensed work assignments, tools, money to those of the house each day to make sure that everything worked the way oit was supposed to. We get the work "economy" from this Greek word.
Paul describes himself as a dispenser
Eph_3:2 If ye have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which is given me to you-ward:
One might see in the giving oif the law through Moses a sort of dispensing. However, since the bible does not call it that, I am reluctant to do so.
Some dispensationalists describe the history of the world in seven dispensations. I resist tht because the bible does not call it that. Likewise some covenant people see seven covenants. To do so, they have to combine single party covenants with two party covenants.
Sometimes the prefix hyper or ultra is appended to dispensationalist when describing someone who sees a post-Acts 2 transition from Israel to the church. I thin Bullinger was an Acts 28 guy. Those of us that hold to an overlap (until 70 AD) more often go with a "mid Acts" or "right division" label.
In a way it becomes somewhat of an anti-Calvinist view. The election,," no free will" view seems to honor God by elevating his sovereignty but actually blames God for the evil in the world. By trying to look at the bible as one seamless perfect plan, one risks a similar distortion. God gave us free will. God knew we would repeatedly fail even before the world was created.
There is a short (19 minute) video bible tract that describes how God made the world increasingly more difficult to help us resist our intrinsic and destructive selfishness.
Here is a short article that describes different ways God has dealt with us. These different "plans" are not the result of some failure of God, but a demonstration that without God, we are completely hopeless.
Plan “F”?
God created heaven and earth perfect. This was plan “A” When Satan’s pride led him to rebel against God and take a third of the angles with him, God had plan “B”. When Adam and Eve sinned, plan “C” went into effect. However, just a few generations after Adam and Eve people became so wicked (amplified by angelic interference) that the world was destroyed with a flood and only eight people were saved. This brought us to plan “D”. However, with the Tower of Babble, it was apparent that a more direct means of getting people to know about their creation, God, and the need for faith a plan “E” was needed. The nation of Israel was supposed to be a nation of priests who would bring the knowledge of God to the whole world.
God put an awful lot of work into plan “E”. The Old Testament of the bible is almost all about What Israel was supposed to do, promises to Israel about the future, and a continual record of their disregard for God. Sending Jesus as the promised Messiah was the culmination of the plan of God to offer a way back to eternal life that was lost by Adam and Eve. Since Israel did not accept the kingdom offered by Jesus at his ministry to the nation, dramatic circumstances will be brought on earth such that a faithful remnant of Israel will be persuaded to received the kingdom. However, this cataclysmic event will not happen until after plan “F” has run its course.
The nation of Israel was supposed to receive the gospel of the kingdom and her king, Jesus, and subsequently bring the knowledge of God to the world. This knowledge instead was spread by those through the gospel of the grace of God introduced by Paul who was called to be an apostle to the gentiles. This might be called plan “F”. When the full number of the gentiles come in, plan “G” would be established where Jesus returns to earth and rules as king from Jerusalem for 1,000 years.
These various plans are not the result of God not having control (being all knowing he knew that we would fall short), but of his allowing humans and angles to have free will. The angels were created all at once and with knowledge. They made their choice all at once. Humans are born sequentially and in ignorance. As a result, God endures the evils that result from bad choices until he can harvest a “crop” of those that surrender to his will.
Some call these “plans” covenants or dispensations. However, these names can be misleading. The world “plan” can also be misleading. It does convey that God is in charge, however, it fails to convey that they might better be called opportunities. Each of these “plans” demonstrate that no matter what the circumstances, most people will ultimately reject God and seek to go their own way. God structured our redemption to be based on faith (trust). Trust is given to that which is true. Israel would keep their laws when they trusted God as a demonstration of faith. Today with plan “F” those who trust in Jesus and his payment on the cross for our sins are regenerated unto the eternal life that is in Christ, can have the Holy Spirit make them better people, and have access to the wisdom of God..
Rom 11:12 Now if the fall of them be the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fulness?
The oikonoms (house rule) was used of the head steward of a household. He was the guy to dispensed work assignments, tools, money to those of the house each day to make sure that everything worked the way oit was supposed to. We get the work "economy" from this Greek word.
Paul describes himself as a dispenser
Eph_3:2 If ye have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which is given me to you-ward:
One might see in the giving oif the law through Moses a sort of dispensing. However, since the bible does not call it that, I am reluctant to do so.
Some dispensationalists describe the history of the world in seven dispensations. I resist tht because the bible does not call it that. Likewise some covenant people see seven covenants. To do so, they have to combine single party covenants with two party covenants.
Sometimes the prefix hyper or ultra is appended to dispensationalist when describing someone who sees a post-Acts 2 transition from Israel to the church. I thin Bullinger was an Acts 28 guy. Those of us that hold to an overlap (until 70 AD) more often go with a "mid Acts" or "right division" label.
In a way it becomes somewhat of an anti-Calvinist view. The election,," no free will" view seems to honor God by elevating his sovereignty but actually blames God for the evil in the world. By trying to look at the bible as one seamless perfect plan, one risks a similar distortion. God gave us free will. God knew we would repeatedly fail even before the world was created.
There is a short (19 minute) video bible tract that describes how God made the world increasingly more difficult to help us resist our intrinsic and destructive selfishness.
Here is a short article that describes different ways God has dealt with us. These different "plans" are not the result of some failure of God, but a demonstration that without God, we are completely hopeless.
Plan “F”?
God created heaven and earth perfect. This was plan “A” When Satan’s pride led him to rebel against God and take a third of the angles with him, God had plan “B”. When Adam and Eve sinned, plan “C” went into effect. However, just a few generations after Adam and Eve people became so wicked (amplified by angelic interference) that the world was destroyed with a flood and only eight people were saved. This brought us to plan “D”. However, with the Tower of Babble, it was apparent that a more direct means of getting people to know about their creation, God, and the need for faith a plan “E” was needed. The nation of Israel was supposed to be a nation of priests who would bring the knowledge of God to the whole world.
God put an awful lot of work into plan “E”. The Old Testament of the bible is almost all about What Israel was supposed to do, promises to Israel about the future, and a continual record of their disregard for God. Sending Jesus as the promised Messiah was the culmination of the plan of God to offer a way back to eternal life that was lost by Adam and Eve. Since Israel did not accept the kingdom offered by Jesus at his ministry to the nation, dramatic circumstances will be brought on earth such that a faithful remnant of Israel will be persuaded to received the kingdom. However, this cataclysmic event will not happen until after plan “F” has run its course.
The nation of Israel was supposed to receive the gospel of the kingdom and her king, Jesus, and subsequently bring the knowledge of God to the world. This knowledge instead was spread by those through the gospel of the grace of God introduced by Paul who was called to be an apostle to the gentiles. This might be called plan “F”. When the full number of the gentiles come in, plan “G” would be established where Jesus returns to earth and rules as king from Jerusalem for 1,000 years.
These various plans are not the result of God not having control (being all knowing he knew that we would fall short), but of his allowing humans and angles to have free will. The angels were created all at once and with knowledge. They made their choice all at once. Humans are born sequentially and in ignorance. As a result, God endures the evils that result from bad choices until he can harvest a “crop” of those that surrender to his will.
Some call these “plans” covenants or dispensations. However, these names can be misleading. The world “plan” can also be misleading. It does convey that God is in charge, however, it fails to convey that they might better be called opportunities. Each of these “plans” demonstrate that no matter what the circumstances, most people will ultimately reject God and seek to go their own way. God structured our redemption to be based on faith (trust). Trust is given to that which is true. Israel would keep their laws when they trusted God as a demonstration of faith. Today with plan “F” those who trust in Jesus and his payment on the cross for our sins are regenerated unto the eternal life that is in Christ, can have the Holy Spirit make them better people, and have access to the wisdom of God..
Rom 11:12 Now if the fall of them be the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fulness?
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Dan Perez
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And the word Dispensation is used also in Luke 16:2 and verse 3 and also found in 1 Tim 1:4 and am Acts 9:5
and that Saul / Paul was the FRST ONE in the Body of Christ and That never Water Baptized no one !!
So , do you disagree with my Premise ?
dan p
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The bible does not give us detailed information. We can speculate, but there is always the danger of seeing one's speculation as doctrine.
I assume that the doctrine of salvation came to Paul progressively. He probably taught the gospel of the kingdom initially as he would have been ideally suited to teach that Jesus was the Messiah as he had studied at the feet of Gamaliel.
We do know that at this time Cornelius was saved by the kingdom gospel. It is unclear if some of those in Antioch were gentiles of Hellenistic Jews.
I think it is likely that Paul water baptized Crispus in Corinth as he was the ruler of the synagogue and may have initially herd the Jesus was Messiah and wanted to be baptized. The failure of most of the rest of the synagogue to accept the kingdom gospel, may have accounted for the departure of Crispus and the start of the grace gospel church in Corinth.
That Paul was also allowed to preach the kingdom gospel might be inferred from;
Act 9:15 But the Lord said unto him, Go thy way: for he is a chosen vessel unto me, to bear my name before the Gentiles, and kings, and the children of Israel:
I do not see support for the Paul never water baptized anyone view. However, I cannot say conclusively that he did. I tend toward the view that he did water baptize a few because of 1 Corinthians 1:16, but I understand that the "water" is an assumption.
I assume that the doctrine of salvation came to Paul progressively. He probably taught the gospel of the kingdom initially as he would have been ideally suited to teach that Jesus was the Messiah as he had studied at the feet of Gamaliel.
We do know that at this time Cornelius was saved by the kingdom gospel. It is unclear if some of those in Antioch were gentiles of Hellenistic Jews.
I think it is likely that Paul water baptized Crispus in Corinth as he was the ruler of the synagogue and may have initially herd the Jesus was Messiah and wanted to be baptized. The failure of most of the rest of the synagogue to accept the kingdom gospel, may have accounted for the departure of Crispus and the start of the grace gospel church in Corinth.
That Paul was also allowed to preach the kingdom gospel might be inferred from;
Act 9:15 But the Lord said unto him, Go thy way: for he is a chosen vessel unto me, to bear my name before the Gentiles, and kings, and the children of Israel:
I do not see support for the Paul never water baptized anyone view. However, I cannot say conclusively that he did. I tend toward the view that he did water baptize a few because of 1 Corinthians 1:16, but I understand that the "water" is an assumption.
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