Trump-enomics

Fantine said:

The tariffs haven't hit yet.

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When the impact occurs and prices rise, it will be appropriate to critique President Trump's economic policies. However, at this moment, referring to the current economy as "Trump's economy" is premature.

FAITH-IN-HIM said:

Contrary to pundits' warnings, tariffs have not spiked prices or inflation. Most economists predicted a stock market drop and soaring inflation, but neither occurred. The stock market is at a record high and inflation remains stable.

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Let's revisit in 6 months. Companies will not be able to absorb tariffs over a long period.

SimplyMe said:

Yes, and the heaviest vehicles out there are semis, 10 times the weight of pretty much all cars and light trucks. As your own article stated, it is those vehicles that are the heavy vehicles that cause the problem.

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We're not talking about semis.

Also, just because semis cause the MOST road wear doesn't mean they are the sole cause. ALL vehicles contribute to road wear, and the heavier they are, the more road wear they cause.

SimplyMe said:

So why do you keep debating it by claiming it is EVs, when they are only slightly more heavy, not 10 times the weight.

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Because EVs are heavier, and therefore cause more road wear than an equivalent ICE vehicle.

SimplyMe said:

No, it is currently heavier.

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You say "no", and then you agree with me. It is a fact that the Ford F-150 Lightning is ~35% heavier than its ICE equivalent.

SimplyMe said:

We'll see what happens in the next decade, as batteries become more energy dense.

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Well OK. But we're talking about what exists now. And what exists now is 35% heavier.

SimplyMe said:

And, no, the Lightning is not 35% heavier than than an F-150 ICE counterpart.

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It absolutely is.

SimplyMe said:

I'm not comparing SUVs to sedans.

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Yes, you are.

SimplyMe said:

I'm comparing the cars currently selling the best, which for ICE are things like the F-150 (and other trucks) and large SUVs.

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Why? Heavier cars use more gas, and therefore pay more in road-use taxes. OTOH, if you drive a Ford F-150 Lightning in PA, you'll pay a mere $200 in road use taxes, while those driving gas-powered F-150's that are MUCH lighter and causing less road wear are paying FAR MORE in road use taxes. We're talking about "fairness" here. How is that "fair"?

SimplyMe said:

No, again, more like 25% (and less) depending on configuration.

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Why are you denying reality to try to make your point?

SimplyMe said:

And, again, the most popular ICE vehicles sold in the US tend to be quite large -- like the absolutely best selling car being the F-150. Yet, as pointed out, the best selling EVs are much smaller -- with the best selling EVs being mid-sized cars, the Tesla Model 3 sedan and the Tesla Model Y SUV. I can't take you seriously when you try to compare all EVs to the F-150 Lightning, when it is a rather modest selling EV, but its ICE counterpart is absolutely the best selling "car" in the US.

Let me try it this way for you: the number 1 selling "car" last year was the Ford F-series (not just the F-150, but also the F-250 and F-350), so just the F-150 can weigh up to 5,740 in an ICE variant, though the F-350 starts over 6,000 lbs and goes up over 7,700 lbs. The best selling EV was the Tesla Model Y, which is a max of about 4,400 pounds. My point is the best selling ICE "car" is much heavier than the best selling EV.

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So what? As I've already pointed out numerous times and you've completely ignored, those heavier vehicles use more gas and therefore pay more in road use taxes.

SimplyMe said:

Again, the ICE cars selling the most tend to be very heavy, yet there is zero concern of the damage these large pickups are doing to the roads;

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This is blatantly untrue. Heavier gas-powered vehicles use more gas, and therefore pay more in road use taxes.

In PA, if you drive a gas-powered Ford F-150 15,000 miles per year @ 15 mpg, you're paying $576 annually in road-use tax. By comparison, if you drive a 35% heavier Ford F-150 Lightning, you're paying just $200 no matter how many miles you drive. Is it "fair" that someone driving a lighter vehicle and causing less road wear is paying almost 3x more in road use taxes than someone driving a heavier vehicle and causing more road wear?

The idea that there is "zero concern" for these heavier vehicles concerning road use tax is a remarkably disingenuous statement, because by nature of including the road use tax in the price of gasoline, vehicles that use more gasoline are ALREADY paying more in road use tax than lighter vehicles.

FAITH-IN-HIM said:

I haven't researched other companies, but Apple often announces billion-dollar investments in the U.S. every 2-3 years without following through. I wouldn't expect Apple to invest in the USA.

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You do remember that during the first Trump term. Apple repatriated 250billion into the US. When corporate taxes were brought under control

Fantine said:

The stock market went down 19.4% at its low and now seems to be near the record high it hit under Biden in October, 2024

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On October 4, 2024, the Dow Jones Industrial Average closed at a record high of 42,352.75, gaining 341.16 points (or 0.81%) for the day.

On June 30, 2025, the Dow Jones Industrial Average closed at 44,094.77

Yeah, it was near Biden's record high as it passed it and went 1,742.02 points higher than Joe Biden ever reached -

Always in His Presence said:

You do remember that during the first Trump term. Apple repatriated 250billion into the US. When corporate taxes were brought under control

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Yes, I remember Apple announced a significant investment in 2018 of $350 billion. This amount was increased to $450 billion in 2021 when President Biden took office, and then to $500 billion earlier this year after President Trump took over. However, they never invested even 10% of these amounts. There were a few billion-dollar investments Apple made in the US, but some were canceled after a year of construction, such as the $552 million campus in North Carolina.

As I have mentioned, I did not research other companies in your list. However, Apple's $500 billion investment is purely a marketing strategy with no actual investment involved.

probinson said:

I just looked that up. Arizona pays WAY higher annual registration fees but the gas tax in Arizona is $0.18 per gallon while it's $0.576 per gallon in PA.

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But in PA, our roads are pristine!

FD: Our roads are not pristine.

probinson said:

We're not talking about semis.

Also, just because semis cause the MOST road wear doesn't mean they are the sole cause. ALL vehicles contribute to road wear, and the heavier they are, the more road wear they cause.



Because EVs are heavier, and therefore cause more road wear than an equivalent ICE vehicle.



You say "no", and then you agree with me. It is a fact that the Ford F-150 Lightning is ~35% heavier than its ICE equivalent.



Well OK. But we're talking about what exists now. And what exists now is 35% heavier.



It absolutely is.

Ford’s new F-150 Lightning, the all-electric version of its most popular truck, is more powerful and faster than the previous gas versions of the vehicle, and designed to tempt truck drivers to decarbonize. But the truck is also much heavier, weighing in at 6,500 pounds, or 35% more than the gas-powered F-150. That’s mostly because of the enormous battery inside.​

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https://www.fastcompany.com/90686171/electric-vehicles-have-a-weight-problem

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This sucker’s heavy, too. The Lightning weighs 6,500 pounds—more than 35 percent more than the gas-powered model. That’s in large part because of an immovable weight at its core: an 1,800-pound battery. Part of that is just the nature of electric vehicles: The Tesla Model 3 weighs 1,000 pounds more than a Honda Civic. The more luxurious Tesla Model S weighs 1,200 pounds more than a Lexus ES 350.​

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There’s Just One Problem With Ford’s Electric F-150

Joe Biden says the pickup truck is fast. It's heavy, too.

slate.com

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The Lightning is also a much heavier vehicle because of the batteries at 6,500 pounds, which is 35% more than a gas-powered F-150. Why? That 1,800-pound battery has a lot to do with it.​

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Ford F-150 Lightning first drive: This is BIG

Ford flew us down to San Antonio, Texas, and took us around town and out to a lovely country winery...

electrek.co

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Yes, you are.



Why? Heavier cars use more gas, and therefore pay more in road-use taxes. OTOH, if you drive a Ford F-150 Lightning in PA, you'll pay a mere $200 in road use taxes, while those driving gas-powered F-150's that are MUCH lighter and causing less road wear are paying FAR MORE in road use taxes. We're talking about "fairness" here. How is that "fair"?

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Take it up with Pennsylvania, and the relatively few F-150 Lightnings sold. At the same time, if you buy a Chevy Bolt, you'll pay that same $200 charge but an equivalent weight car would pay far less. How is that fair? And which do you think there are more of on the roads (hint: it is the Chevy Bolt).

probinson said:

Why are you denying reality to try to make your point?

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I'm not, despite your link making an unsubstantiated claim. Look up the actual weights: an F-150 with a crew cab weighs from 4,343 to 5,950 lbs. At the same time, an F-150 Lightning weighs from roughly 6,000 to almost 6,900 pounds. What they are doing is what you complained about, not comparing equivalent vehicles -- comparing the heaviest F-150 Lightning to the lightest (not crew cab) F-150 ICE to get that 35%. If you do compatible F-150s, the difference is either 4,343 to a 6,000 lbs F-150 (both crew cabs, less power, less options which mean less weight) or almost 6,000 to 6,900 lbs. There is no 35% difference -- at worst it is 25% -- between similar F-150 ICE and Lightning models.

probinson said:

So what? As I've already pointed out numerous times and you've completely ignored, those heavier vehicles use more gas and therefore pay more in road use taxes.



This is blatantly untrue. Heavier gas-powered vehicles use more gas, and therefore pay more in road use taxes.

In PA, if you drive a gas-powered Ford F-150 15,000 miles per year @ 15 mpg, you're paying $576 annually in road-use tax. By comparison, if you drive a 35% heavier Ford F-150 Lightning, you're paying just $200 no matter how many miles you drive. Is it "fair" that someone driving a lighter vehicle and causing less road wear is paying almost 3x more in road use taxes than someone driving a heavier vehicle and causing more road wear?

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Let's try this again -- as I mentioned, the F-150 typically gets between 20 and 25 mpg; though there is one extra heavy version that only gets 18 mpg. It's also worth noting that the average driver in Pennsylvania only drives 11,000 miles per year, so you are over-estimating in 2 different ways. .

At the same time, about 1.7 million EVs were sold in 2024 with only about 2% of them being F-150 Lightnings, so it isn't fair to compare the "damage" done by all EVs to the F-150 Lightning. Again, many of those are much lighter, and equivalent ICE vehicles get far better fuel economy, so how is a flat fee fair to all EV drivers.

probinson said:

The idea that there is "zero concern" for these heavier vehicles concerning road use tax is a remarkably disingenuous statement, because by nature of including the road use tax in the price of gasoline, vehicles that use more gasoline are ALREADY paying more in road use tax than lighter vehicles.

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So why isn't there a similar way to charge EV drivers per mile of use, so it can be fair to them? Instead, lighter EVs that do less damage (and even less than many ICE cars) are charged more than they should.

And to take it away from Pennsylvania and back to the US, again, your EV user in a light EV (half what an ICE F-150 can weigh) is paying 150% more than what some F-150 drivers are paying, and far more than any F-150 drivers pay. The federal road tax for one of the F-150s that gets 24 mpg, running the US average of roughly 12,500 miles per year, only pays about $96 in gas tax. At the same time, the heaviest F-150 that weighs 6,000 lbs -- about as much as some Lightnings -- and gets 18 mpg still only pays $127. So how is it fair that all EV drivers, even those driving 3,000 or 3,500 lbs cars, that are almost half the weight of America's best selling "car," have to pay twice (or even 150% more) as much?

And again, why is this suddenly an issue with EVs, about how heavier cars cause more road damage. In the 90s, back when the federal gas tax was last changed, cars weighed an average of 3178 lbs. That has gone up by "35%" today to 4329 lbs. So we're driving substantially heavier cars today but the gas tax hasn't changed.

Now, I'm sure you'll say that today's cars pay more in gas tax, but that isn't true. While today's cars are heavier, they are about 20% more fuel efficient, so these much heavier cars are actually paying less gas tax. If the "35%" heavier cars are such a concern, why has the gas tax never been increased, particularly since the government gets less money per mile from these cars?

Now, the average EV weighs pretty close to that average weight of US cars sold last year. Again, the best selling Tesla Model Y weighs a maximum of 44,000 lbs. The next best selling EV, the Tesla Model 3, weighs 4,000 lbs (less than the national average of new cars sold). The Hyundai Ioniq 5 weighs between 4,144 up to 4,861 -- meaning the average Ioniq 5 weighs about the same as the average ICE car. And while you can point to the F-150 Lightning (maybe 2% of EV sales last year) as weighing substantially more, you also have to account for the Nissan Leaf and Fiat 500e, which are "35%" lighter than the average ICE car sold last year (and at under 3,000 lbs, the Fiat 500e is actually around 35% lighter than the average US car sold last year).

Yet it is proposed that EVs pay a national gas tax equal to what an up to 26,000 lbs box truck pays in gas taxes. How is that fair and how does it make sense?

wing2000 said:

Sounds like a good reason for the Congress to leave it to the states. I would still prefer the whole system to be overhauled based on tolls.



Yes, I have driven the PA turnpike, though not in the past 10 years or so. Why do you think it's so expensive?

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I drive one exit weekly, 10 miles, $1.79 each way. Seems a bit steep.

Always in His Presence said:

On October 4, 2024, the Dow Jones Industrial Average closed at a record high of 42,352.75, gaining 341.16 points (or 0.81%) for the day.

On June 30, 2025, the Dow Jones Industrial Average closed at 44,094.77

Yeah, it was near Biden's record high as it passed it and went 1,742.02 points higher than Joe Biden ever reached -

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Do you bother to check these claims before you just copy & paste them?

The DJIA's highest closing was not on October 4 - in fact, it spend most of the rest of 2024 closing higher than it did that day. Its highest closing was on Dec 12, 2024, at 45,014.

It closed at 43,487 on Jan 17, 2025 (the last day before Trump's inauguration).

As I write this, it's at 44,540, which means it's up 2.4% over the last six months that Trump has been in office, but still below its peak near the end of Biden's term. As I pointed out in the other thread where you also tried to talk up Trump's effects on the stock market, an annualized growth rate of 4-point-something percent is fairly low for the market.

Fantine said:

I understand that when the road is paid for interstate tolls must be removed. This was the case with the NY Thruway-- now i87 and I90.

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I assure you that the Thruway still charges tolls, as do sections of I-95. I'm fixin to eat some of them in a few days.

Fantine said:

I understand that when the road is paid for interstate tolls must be removed. This was the case with the NY Thruway-- now i87 and I90.

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The problem is the road is never paid for. While tolls do help pay it down, you then have road maintenance which creates more debt, and then eventually you need road improvements, etc. Basically it is set up in such a way that the road never gets paid off, so tolls remain forever.

iluvatar5150 said:

Do you bother to check these claims before you just copy & paste them?

The DJIA's highest closing was not on October 4 - in fact, it spend most of the rest of 2024 closing higher than it did that day. Its highest closing was on Dec 12, 2024, at 45,014.

It closed at 43,487 on Jan 17, 2025 (the last day before Trump's inauguration).

As I write this, it's at 44,540, which means it's up 2.4% over the last six months that Trump has been in office, but still below its peak near the end of Biden's term. As I pointed out in the other thread where you also tried to talk up Trump's effects on the stock market, an annualized growth rate of 4-point-something percent is fairly low for the market.

https://finance.yahoo.com/quote/%5EDJI/

https://finance.yahoo.com/quote/%5EDJI/history/

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First, I was using the dates in the post I quoted, try keeping up

Always in His Presence said:

First, I was using the dates in the post I quoted, try keeping up

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First, nobody said "October 4" but you. Try keeping up.

Second, ok, so @Fantine was also wrong about when the "record" was set under Biden. Sure, it hit a high in October - as it had been doing for the 11 months prior, and then it went on to hit even higher highs in November and December.

Third, you still added info and claims there were completely wrong, and should have been obvious to anybody looking at a chart. I don't know where you got the idea that Oct 4, 2024 was the previous peak for the Dow.

SimplyMe said:

Take it up with Pennsylvania, and the relatively few F-150 Lightnings sold. At the same time, if you buy a Chevy Bolt, you'll pay that same $200 charge but an equivalent weight car would pay far less.

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In PA, you reach $200 in road use tax after slightly more than 347 gallons of gas. It's incredibly unlikely that anyone driving a gas-powered vehicle will ever pay any less than $200 unless they're never driving their car.

SimplyMe said:

I'm not, despite your link making an unsubstantiated claim.

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I guess you think every article out there (and there are many) stating the F-150 Lightning is 35% heavier than its ICE counterpart are all wrong and you're right. OK.

SimplyMe said:

Let's try this again -- as I mentioned, the F-150 typically gets between 20 and 25 mpg;

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Meanwhile back here in the land of reality, here are the real numbers that Ford F-150 owners have reported they get. The mode is 15 mpg.



Source: Ford F-150 MPG - Actual MPG from 15,494 Ford F-150 owners

SimplyMe said:

At the same time, about 1.7 million EVs were sold in 2024 with only about 2% of them being F-150 Lightnings, so it isn't fair to compare the "damage" done by all EVs to the F-150 Lightning.

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I'm not. I'm comparing road wear from an F-150 Ligthing to an ICE F-150. Because the Lightning weighs ~35% more, it will cause more road wear.

SimplyMe said:

Again, many of those are much lighter, and equivalent ICE vehicles get far better fuel economy, so how is a flat fee fair to all EV drivers.

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Because that flat fee is almost always going to be far less than any ICE vehicle will pay, at least in PA.

SimplyMe said:

So why isn't there a similar way to charge EV drivers per mile of use, so it can be fair to them? Instead, lighter EVs that do less damage (and even less than many ICE cars) are charged more than they should.

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What exactly would you propose? Should the government be able to track your every mile so that they can charge you accordingly?

SimplyMe said:

And again, why is this suddenly an issue with EVs, about how heavier cars cause more road damage. In the 90s, back when the federal gas tax was last changed, cars weighed an average of 3178 lbs. That has gone up by "35%" today to 4329 lbs. So we're driving substantially heavier cars today but the gas tax hasn't changed.

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It's not "suddenly" an issue. Heavier vehicles use more fuel and therefore pay more in road use tax.

SimplyMe said:

Now, I'm sure you'll say that today's cars pay more in gas tax, but that isn't true.

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You must be joking. When I started driving in 1993, I remember filling up for about $0.75/gallon. Today, I'm paying $0.576/gallon in PA fuel tax alone. Of course I'm paying FAR MORE today than I did in 1993.

Pommer said:

But in PA, our roads are pristine!

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In reality, we have to budget for a new suspension every year or two when we drive a car on PA roads.