How is it that the Catholic Church is evil?

Valletta · Sunday at 2:08 PM

BobRyan said:
I hope you do not view prayers and doing acts of kindness to others - as "self punishment"

I actually don't know the details of how you view this subject. You defined "Penance" as "the outward expression of repentance and self-punishment. ".

I am simply taking your word for it - while at the same time having some doubts as to whether you would really classify acts of charity in your term "self punishment". I was kind of doubting whether that was the case - but I needed you to clarify.

Penance no longer refers to the sacrament itself, but an act demonstrating or expressing your repentance (I would drop the "self punishment.") Something showing you are sorry for your sins. That could include almsgiving, that could include fasting or some other task. Today typically a penance assigned by a priest is not that extreme, such as the extreme fasting done by the Apostles, the important part often emphasized is understanding God's mercy.

tampasteve · Monday at 6:55 AM

BobRyan said:
I was kind of doubting whether that was the case - but I needed you to clarify.

Fair enough, thanks Bob

tampasteve · Monday at 7:10 AM

Kathleen30 said:
Steve yu say that Martin Luther believed that the Eucharist was the body and blood of Jesus. Yes he did . But never in the way the Catholic Church performs it with a priest acting as conduit between the the Eucharist and the congregation. He never endorsed that.

Well, not "never", of course he was a Catholic Priest before he jumpstarted the Reformation. Also, yes he did believe that the Eucharist was a means of grace for forgiveness of sins. He did not agree with the idea of Transubstantiation or view the Eucharist in exactly the same manner as the Catholic Church, but he did believe in the real body and blood and the Eucharist as a conduit (to use your wording) of Grace and forgiveness.

Kathleen30 said:
As to the presence of Christ God is omniscient. He is everywhere

Of course.

Kathleen30 said:
View attachment 366894

I am not sure what these images are, but I only see these blocks of pink in your recent posts.

Kathleen30 said:
Steve when you say you never said that Christ does not save. Yet you say that both Christ and the apostles had power to forgive sins. That was the issue. Not Christ but the apostles being able to forgive sins or deny. You wrote in post 226 ( As for the apostles being given the right to forgive or retain sins. We can see the evidence of that. When they go out to preach the gospel and then to proclaim these people forgiven ) Steve me can only read and go what you wrote in reference to my reply from my post 236 . And that being that the apostles never saved nor forgave anyone of their sin. They only proclaimed the gospel Christ done the saving.and the forgiving not the apostles

Christ's work on the cross atoned for all sins, but we as believers need to seek forgiveness for our sins. It isn't just a one time event for us, our ongoing relationship with Christ requires reconciliation and repentance. Although Christ's sacrifice atones for all sin, individuals must consciously recognize their wrongdoing, genuinely repent, and seek God's forgiveness in order to fully receive the blessings of that grace.

Catholics and Orthodox practice the Sacrament of Reconciliation as a way to acknowledge our sins, receive absolution, and experiencing God's healing grace.

boughtwithaprice · Monday at 10:15 AM

DaveM said:
biggest issue for me was going to Priest to ask forgiveness of sin, and never being freed from the enslavement of that sin, only Jesus frees us from the enslavement of sin, only Jesus gives us a new heart, a new spirit, going to priest to confess your sins is 100% worthless, and has no spiritual power at all. Only Jesus can free you from sin, only Jesus grants us eternal life by the father.

I would encourage you to read the letter to the Hebrews. Especially chapter 10.

Catholics believe, as do Protestants that Jesus paid the price for our sins, and it is by His sacrifice that we are reconciled to God. We cannot work our way to heaven.

At the moment we are born again in baptism, all of our past and present sins are forgiven and our soul is cleansed. We are a new creature, and we are able to begin to walk as He walked.

Scripture says nothing about future sins, once we believe. It does not say rest easy, don’t worry about your sinful behavior, you are a believer now. It actually says the opposite.

Once we believe, our sins are forgiven, and we are supposed to stop sinning. As Jesus said to the woman caught in adultery, go away and don’t sin anymore. Scripture even explicitly warns us not to rely on Jesus’ sacrifice if we sin once we become believers. That would be presumption

Hebrews 10:26 says “For if we sin willfully after having received the knowledge of the truth, there is now left no sacrifice for sins.” That includes Jesus’ sacrifice on the cross, which becomes of no effect if we choose to sin. Once we are born again, we are obligated to stop sinning.
If we are born again, we are dead to sin. If we are dead to sin, how can we live any longer therein? If we sin with impunity once we claim to know Jesus, it make Him a joke and brings Him to open shame. We are weak, what then can we do?

Jesus knows our flesh is weak, and it is very hard to walk the path that leads to life, yet we are called to walk the narrow way and enter the straight gate.

He gave His apostles the power to forgive sins on earth, they are the priests.

Our sin after we have been born again greatly offends God. It is as if we were at His passion spitting on Him, mocking Him, beating Him, killing Him. Hey thanks for cleansing my sin Jesus, why don’t I just laugh and continue sinning while I watch you bleed, you have forgiven me so it’s no big deal, right?
Do you really think that is how God would react to the previous absurd statement?

If we sin in weakness, our fear of the Lord causes us to feel sorrow and we seek out Christ’s representative to apologize and ask for grace to abandon our sin. That is what the priest is for. He does not forgive us our sin of his own accord, but by the authority of Christ vested in him. We are apologizing to Jesus for having wounded Him. Going to confession also gives us grace to give up our sin and detach our hearts from material things and esteem of the world.
Jesus also gives us His body and blood in the Eucharist, and regular worthy consumption gives us the grace to overcome sin. Confession and the Eucharist are acts of humility not magical substitutes for Christs death on the cross.

Scripture says that if we sin after we are born again, we should have a sense of dread of punishment, not arrogant presumption.
We sin after we are born again, what are we to do?

I don’t known about you, but I am going to confess to one of Christ’s ambassadors, and I will consume Christ’s body and blood to strengthen me against sin. Life is hard, and God has given us the gift of Confession and Eucharist to help us. They should not be mocked or squandered

Kathleen30 · Tuesday at 3:04 AM

tampasteve said:
Well, not "never", of course he was a Catholic Priest before he jumpstarted the Reformation. Also, yes he did believe that the Eucharist was a means of grace for forgiveness of sins. He did not agree with the idea of Transubstantiation or view the Eucharist in exactly the same manner as the Catholic Church, but he did believe in the real body and blood and the Eucharist as a conduit (to use your wording) of Grace and forgiveness.

Of course.

I am not sure what these images are, but I only see these blocks of pink in your recent posts.

Christ's work on the cross atoned for all sins, but we as believers need to seek forgiveness for our sins. It isn't just a one time event for us, our ongoing relationship with Christ requires reconciliation and repentance.Although Christ's sacrifice atones for all sin, individuals must consciously recognize their wrongdoing, genuinely repent, and seek God's forgiveness in order to fully receive the blessings of that grace.

Catholics and Orthodox practice the Sacrament of Reconciliation as a way to acknowledge our sins, receive absolution, and experiencing God's healing grace.

TampaSteve as I as said and you admit that Martin Luther certainly did not believe in how the Catholics believe in the transubstantian. More so of the power of the priest being the conduit between the bread and the wine and being able to turn the bread and the wine into the literal body and blood of Christ. He only believed that they became so just not by the power of the priest but by God himself. The very reason why I mentioned that God is omniscient he doesn't need the emphasis placed on a priest having that sort of power and control over the communion. The whole emphasis of communion is supposed to be on what the sacrifice of Christ has done for us each and not in the priest having such alleged powers.Seems your religion takes control and authority over communion as well. When it was meant for every believer to participate minus the supposed conduit powers of the priest over the believers communion. You ask about the pink blocks. They are topical break points.

Tampasteve you again be referring to my post 236 of which you claimed that the apostles can save, forgive and withold forgiveness just as Christ did. My reply to that was the apostles only ever proclaimed the gospel but they never had the power to save anyone. It was God that done all the saving and not the apostles. This now be a entirely new subject you bring to the discussion. You now say Christs work on the cross did atone for sin . Yes . You than say as believers we need to seek forgiveness for our sin. Yes we do that in our thoughts and prayer now doubt countless times a day. Some maybe more some maybe less. You than say ( it just isn’t a one time event for us, our ongoing relationship with Christ requires reconciliation and repentance.) you then say again. ( Although Christs atones for all sin, individuals must consciously recognise their wrong doing, genuinely repent and seek Gods forgiveness in order to fully recieve the fullness of that grace ) Well that be your experiences with communion. I say Maybe sometimes. But mostly for many of us. We are to busy rejoicing in our communion experience in what Christ has done for us . We be to busy thinking upon Him then to be thinking upon ourselves and the self. Meaning do this in remembrance of me.. we have already passed from death unto eternal life. Steve to whom the Son sets free is free indeed ❤️

boughtwithaprice · Tuesday at 5:48 AM

Kathleen30 said:
TampaSteve as I as said and you admit that Martin Luther certainly did not believe in how the Catholics believe in the transubstantian. More so of the power of the priest being the conduit between the bread and the wine and being able to turn the bread and the wine into the literal body and blood of Christ. He only believed that they became so just not by the power of the priest but by God himself. The very reason why I mentioned that God is omniscient he doesn't need the emphasis placed on a priest having that sort of power and control over the communion. The whole emphasis of communion is supposed to be on what the sacrifice of Christ has done for us each and not in the priest having such alleged powers.Seems your religion takes control and authority over communion as well. When it was meant for every believer to participate minus the supposed conduit powers of the priest over the believers communion. You ask about the pink blocks. They are topical break points. View attachment 366974 Tampasteve you again be referring to my post 236 of which you claimed that the apostles can save, forgive and withold forgiveness just as Christ did. My reply to that was the apostles only ever proclaimed the gospel but they never had the power to save anyone. It was God that done all the saving and not the apostles. This now be a entirely new subject you bring to the discussion. You now say Christs work on the cross did atone for sin . Yes . You than say as believers we need to seek forgiveness for our sin. Yes we do that in our thoughts and prayer now doubt countless times a day. Some maybe more some maybe less. You than say ( it just isn’t a one time event for us, our ongoing relationship with Christ requires reconciliation and repentance.) you then say again. ( Although Christs atones for all sin, individuals must consciously recognise their wrong doing, genuinely repent and seek Gods forgiveness in order to fully recieve the fullness of that grace ) Well that be your experiences with communion. I say Maybe sometimes. But mostly for many of us. We are to busy rejoicing in our communion experience in what Christ has done for us . We be to busy thinking upon Him then to be thinking upon ourselves and the self. Meaning do this in remembrance of me.. we have already passed from death unto eternal life. Steve to whom the Son sets free is free indeed ❤️

That is wonderful , so you do not commit sin ever? Have you examined your conscience ?

Scripture tells us that the path to life is hard, and it is only through much suffering that we enter into life. How is it that you say it is easy?

Kathleen30 · Tuesday at 6:58 AM

boughtwithaprice said:
That is wonderful , so you do not commit sin ever? Have you examined your conscience ?

Scripture tells us that the path to life is hard, and it is only through much suffering that we enter into life. How is it that you say it is easy?

Broughtwitaprice . Of course me sin. For all have sinned and fall short of the perfect God. Scripture says it’s well nigh impossible for anyone to enter the kingdom of God within their own strength. But with the God it much easy because he has the power to forgive whom he pleases. That simple. You have been brought at great price by the blood of Christ . Who is it that can break the seal of God when it comes to our salvation. Certainly not our selves or religious organisations nor the principalities of darkness can undo. Even if some claim they can

tampasteve · Tuesday at 7:36 AM

Kathleen30 said:
TampaSteve as I as said and you admit that Martin Luther certainly did not believe in how the Catholics believe in the transubstantian.

I am not "admitting" anything, you were originally upholding the Memorialist view while I countered that all of the Historic churches, and the Lutheran church, all believe in the Real Presence while stating that the way that they come to the "how" is different from Catholic and Orthodox.

Kathleen30 said:
More so of the power of the priest being the conduit between the bread and the wine and being able to turn the bread and the wine into the literal body and blood of Christ. He only believed that they became so just not by the power of the priest but by God himself. The very reason why I mentioned that God is omniscient he doesn't need the emphasis placed on a priest having that sort of power and control over the communion....

Catholics don't believe that it is the power of the priest that is doing the changing in the elements, it is only the power of God working through the priest as Christ's representative on Earth. The distinction between what you wrote and what I wrote is important. All of the historic churches believe that one must be ordained a priest to effect the Eucharist. Even the Lutherans believe that one should be a priest and only under very limited and grave circumstances can a lay person effect the Eucharist.

Kathleen30 said:
Seems your religion takes control and authority over communion as well. When it was meant for every believer to participate minus the supposed conduit powers of the priest over the believers communion.

We have the same "religion" - Christianity.

Kathleen30 said:
The whole emphasis of communion is supposed to be on what the sacrifice of Christ has done for us each and not in the priest having such alleged powers.Seems your religion takes control and authority over communion as well. When it was meant for every believer to participate minus the supposed conduit powers of the priest over the believers communion.

Catholics don't believe that it is the power of the priest that is doing the changing in the elements, it is only the power of God. The website here explains it pretty well:

During the celebration of the Eucharist the priest, acting in the person of Christ (in persona Christi), “re-presents (makes present) the sacrifice of the cross” under the sacramental forms of bread and wine (CCC 1366). This is the sacrifice of the Mass.

During Holy Mass, the priest wears clothes called “vestments” to show he represents Christ, not himself. The priest reflects an image of Christ, who is the “high priest of the New Covenant” (CCC 1348). When a priest offers the Eucharist, he uniquely and most powerfully makes Jesus present to and for the benefit of the faithful, and the world at large as well.

All of the historic churches believe that one must be ordained a priest to effect the Eucharist. Even the Lutherans believe that one should be a ordained pastor and only under very limited and grave circumstances can a lay person effect the Eucharist. Very few churches believe that "every believer" can or should effect the Eucharist, nearly all of them believe that an ordained pastor or minister or priest should be the person doing it.

Kathleen30 said:
You ask about the pink blocks. They are topical break points. View attachment 366974

I would say that they are atypical, I haven't seen anyone use them before, they are not necessary, you can just make paragraphs.

Kathleen30 said:
Tampasteve you again be referring to my post 236 of which you claimed that the apostles can save, forgive and withold forgiveness just as Christ did. My reply to that was the apostles only ever proclaimed the gospel but they never had the power to save anyone. It was God that done all the saving and not the apostles. This now be a entirely new subject you bring to the discussion.

I'm really not saying different things, but we are using the same words in a different manner. I thought you understood atonement and salvation as well as the idea of retaining or forgiving temporally, I was incorrect in that assumption.

Kathleen30 said:
You now say Christs work on the cross did atone for sin . Yes . You than say as believers we need to seek forgiveness for our sin. Yes we do that in our thoughts and prayer now doubt countless times a day. Some maybe more some maybe less. You than say ( it just isn’t a one time event for us, our ongoing relationship with Christ requires reconciliation and repentance.) you then say again. ( Although Christs atones for all sin, individuals must consciously recognise their wrong doing, genuinely repent and seek Gods forgiveness in order to fully recieve the fullness of that grace ) Well that be your experiences with communion.

Yes, that is what I say and what all of the Historic Christian churches teach.

Kathleen30 said:
I say Maybe sometimes. But mostly for many of us. We are to busy rejoicing in our communion experience in what Christ has done for us . We be to busy thinking upon Him then to be thinking upon ourselves and the self. Meaning do this in remembrance of me.. we have already passed from death unto eternal life. Steve to whom the Son sets free is free indeed ❤️

So you are too busy to examine your conscience and repent of your sins? That's concerning and honestly points to a primary issue with many Evangelical Protestants - a lack of conscious desire to examine one's faults and sins - to lay them bare to Jesus for forgiveness. If we don't confront our faults and sins we can't truly turn from them and change our ways. It isn't "thinking upon ourselves" in some selfish way as it seems to be that you are thinking, it is so that we can turn from our selfish sin and reconcile ourselves to our creator.

boughtwithaprice · Tuesday at 10:18 AM

Kathleen30 said:
Broughtwitaprice . Of course me sin. For all have sinned and fall short of the perfect God. Scripture says it’s well nigh impossible for anyone to enter the kingdom of God within their own strength. But with the God it much easy because he has the power to forgive whom he pleases. That simple. You have been brought at great price by the blood of Christ . Who is it that can break the seal of God when it comes to our salvation. Certainly not our selves or religious organisations nor the principalities of darkness can undo. Even if some claim they can

That is where you are wrong. Scripture is clear that we ourselves can break “the seal of God when it comes to our salvation” God is merciful, and He is also Just. He will not be mocked nor let His word be mocked.
Committing any sin after we are born again is a grave matter that is not to be taken lightly. If we are caught in the habit of sin, then we need to ask God for help, as He has promised to help any who ask Him.
What is He to do if we will not ask? Sin breaks the seal of salvation and our relationship with God must be restored. We do not take our salvation for granted. We must keep our wedding garment pure.
Christ has given us the analogy of marriage to teach us the right place to put our hearts. We are going to the marriage supper of the Lamb, not a potluck.
Those that say we don’t do anything once we believe and works cannot make us more saved are like a slothful wife. She reasons in her heart, “I am now married, my husband is an honorable man and will never divorce me, so I will do nothing” She sits on the couch, watches TV and doesn’t move. She takes no thought for her husbands wishes and behaves as he is supposed to fill her every whim. Eventually, she begins to smell bad due to lack of hygiene. Her husband is honorable, so he does not divorce her, but the smell is so bad that he must put her out of the house, and there is no way he could live with the smell. He does not even consider enjoying the fullness of their love in intercourse because he cannot get near her. He will not divorce her, but neither can he delight in her, and he grieves that his love is rejected.
Now consider the wife that delights in her husband. She takes care of her home and herself to the best of her ability. If she cannot perform all of her duties, she asks her husband and he provides all assistance necessary. She studies her husband to know what he likes so that she may more please him. She greats him with a smile and gives off the odor of sweetness.
They are able to enter the bridal chamber and experience all the depths of their love.

It is the same with us and God. He loves us so much that He died for us, and the gifts and calling of God are without repentance. The drops of blood which He sweated on the ground were not from His fear of crucifixion, but from the agony of His heart that His love would be rejected and His assistance scorned. He asked the Father to take the cup away, not out of fear of pain, but the agony that He was dying for everyone, even those that reject Him and wind up in hell. As humans we know that there is not quite as deep a pain as when our love is rejected. How much more for God?
How much do we value our salvation? do we do all we can to please God, or do we want Him to please us? Our decision in that matter will determine our eternal destiny. God has given us free will, as love that is not free, is not love.

The Catholic Church differs from the Calvinists in that the Catechism teaches that there is not one soul for whom Christ did not suffer and die.
The souls in hell are not there because of punishment, but they are condemned because they have rejected the only Son of God. (John 3:17) He poured out His blood and died for them, there is nothing more He can do.

When Christ calls us, He says we must deny ourselves and take up our cross. What we want no longer matters. We must live to please God as a wife preparing herself for her husband. If we don’t, then we may find ourselves in outer darkness.

The question is how much do we love God, and if we do not love Him enough, are we willing to ask Him for the grace to love Him more?
Or are we just self centered and want God to love us while we do nothing ?

Kathleen30 · Wednesday at 9:27 AM

boughtwithaprice said:
That is where you are wrong. Scripture is clear that we ourselves can break “the seal of God when it comes to our salvation” God is merciful, and He is also Just. He will not be mocked nor let His word be mocked.
Committing any sin after we are born again is a grave matter that is not to be taken lightly. If we are caught in the habit of sin, then we need to ask God for help, as He has promised to help any who ask Him.
What is He to do if we will not ask? Sin breaks the seal of salvation and our relationship with God must be restored. We do not take our salvation for granted. We must keep our wedding garment pure.
Christ has given us the analogy of marriage to teach us the right place to put our hearts. We are going to the marriage supper of the Lamb, not a potluck.
Those that say we don’t do anything once we believe and works cannot make us more saved are like a slothful wife. She reasons in her heart, “I am now married, my husband is an honorable man and will never divorce me, so I will do nothing” She sits on the couch, watches TV and doesn’t move. She takes no thought for her husbands wishes and behaves as he is supposed to fill her every whim. Eventually, she begins to smell bad due to lack of hygiene. Her husband is honorable, so he does not divorce her, but the smell is so bad that he must put her out of the house, and there is no way he could live with the smell. He does not even consider enjoying the fullness of their love in intercourse because he cannot get near her. He will not divorce her, but neither can he delight in her, and he grieves that his love is rejected.
Now consider the wife that delights in her husband. She takes care of her home and herself to the best of her ability. If she cannot perform all of her duties, she asks her husband and he provides all assistance necessary. She studies her husband to know what he likes so that she may more please him. She greats him with a smile and gives off the odor of sweetness.
They are able to enter the bridal chamber and experience all the depths of their love.

It is the same with us and God. He loves us so much that He died for us, and the gifts and calling of God are without repentance. The drops of blood which He sweated on the ground were not from His fear of crucifixion, but from the agony of His heart that His love would be rejected and His assistance scorned. He asked the Father to take the cup away, not out of fear of pain, but the agony that He was dying for everyone, even those that reject Him and wind up in hell. As humans we know that there is not quite as deep a pain as when our love is rejected. How much more for God?
How much do we value our salvation? do we do all we can to please God, or do we want Him to please us? Our decision in that matter will determine our eternal destiny. God has given us free will, as love that is not free, is not love.

The Catholic Church differs from the Calvinists in that the Catechism teaches that there is not one soul for whom Christ did not suffer and die.
The souls in hell are not there because of punishment, but they are condemned because they have rejected the only Son of God. (John 3:17) He poured out His blood and died for them, there is nothing more He can do.

When Christ calls us, He says we must deny ourselves and take up our cross. What we want no longer matters. We must live to please God as a wife preparing herself for her husband. If we don’t, then we may find ourselves in outer darkness.

The question is how much do we love God, and if we do not love Him enough, are we willing to ask Him for the grace to love Him more?
Or are we just self centered and want God to love us while we do nothing ?

Brougtwithaprice you say ( or are we self centred and want God to love while we do nothing . ) That is what Bible tells us. He first loved us and we not him. We do good works because we love God it’s an automatic reaction and certainly not as a penance or that I have to please God with continued confessions in some way to earn my salvation. You then use the example of a smelly bride and a sweet smelling bride. It seems to me that you sold like to defrock me of my salvation and everyone else for that matter. What your saying is that a Christian can lose their salvation. Then how do we keep it? Is it by continued daily ritual confessions. And how manny times do you lose it ? with each evil thought or action and how many times do we regain our salvation?. Is it a case of being saved and then not being saved with the interpretation of your religion on that matter, by us not following the standard that you promote of continual confession ? I always thought the law was to bring us into the realisation that we cannot keep the law, and that brought us to the realisation that we need a Saviour. And the question must be asked how can anyone know they are truly saved if we can lose our salvation if we follow your mode of confession. But the reality is that all true Christians confess their failings on a consistent basis anyway

As to the Calvinism you mention . Well what influenced John Calvin more barring the Bible . St Augustine of course. He was rather Calvinistic. And finally Why is that your religion so infatuated in wanting to control every aspect of a Christian’s being. ? And now it also seems our salvation also with what you have explained to me that our salvation is now not guaranteed by God.

boughtwithaprice · Thursday at 3:06 PM

Kathleen30 said:
Brougtwithaprice you say ( or are we self centred and want God to love while we do nothing . ) That is what Bible tells us. He first loved us and we not him. We do good works because we love God it’s an automatic reaction and certainly not as a penance or that I have to please God with continued confessions in some way to earn my salvation. You then use the example of a smelly bride and a sweet smelling bride. It seems to me that you sold like to defrock me of my salvation and everyone else for that matter. What your saying is that a Christian can lose their salvation. Then how do we keep it? Is it by continued daily ritual confessions. And how manny times do you lose it ? with each evil thought or action and how many times do we regain our salvation?. Is it a case of being saved and then not being saved with the interpretation of your religion on that matter, by us not following the standard that you promote of continual confession ? I always thought the law was to bring us into the realisation that we cannot keep the law, and that brought us to the realisation that we need a Saviour. And the question must be asked how can anyone know they are truly saved if we can lose our salvation if we follow your mode of confession. But the reality is that all true Christians confess their failings on a consistent basis anyway View attachment 366997 As to the Calvinism you mention . Well what influenced John Calvin more barring the Bible . St Augustine of course. He was rather Calvinistic. And finally Why is that your religion so infatuated in wanting to control every aspect of a Christian’s being. ? And now it also seems our salvation also with what you have explained to me that our salvation is now not guaranteed by God.

I refer you to sacred scripture which clearly says that we cannot save ourselves, as does the Catholic Church, yet it does not tell us to act presumptuously. We are warned time and again to repent for the kingdom of God is at hand.
We are not told to rest now as salvation is assured. God is merciful, He is also just. God is love and love is voluntary. It requires an act of the will.
Salvation is not lost for those that actively love God. It can be discarded at any time for those that chose to discard God’s commands, do nothing and expect heaven blaming it all on someone that told them Jesus paid it all.
Jesus did pay it all, but if you want salvation, you have to ask for it. He who asks receives, seeks finds and knocks it is opened to them. That includes freedom from sin.
There is no excuse for a believing Christian to sin. The Bible says it is as if you crucify the Son of God afresh and bring Him to open shame. We need to react with horror to our sins, not take a lackadaisical attitude of no big deal, Jesus paid it all.
We can look at God’s warning in the Apocalypse also known as Revelation against taking salvation for granted. Those that have no fear of God say Jesus paid it all. They say I am rich, well fed and have need of nothing. God says they are miserable blind poor and naked. He then charges them to buy of Him gold tried in the fire, and gives promises to those that overcome. Those that won’t, He will vomit out of His mouth.
That is pretty scary.
We like to have our ears tickled and told everything is alright and we don’t have any responsibility, but that is not what the Bible says.
Some misinformed teachers say that, but we are not saved by teachers, we are saved the the Son of God who loves us and gives Himself for us. Do we love Him? Or take Him for granted ? Can we look on His broken body and continue to sin? Realizing that every sin is another spit of contempt, a crack of the whip that tears flesh, blood from His crown of thorns given to mock Him, and another drive of the nails that ended His life?
Can we really sin so easily knowing that is what we are doing? Can we really expect salvation from Him while treating Him with utter contempt? If you sin, that is what you are doing. Why would you scorn a Church that teaches us to confess our sins and not take Our Lord for granted?
Jesus is merciful and He will forgive our weakness, but we have to ask for forgiveness and show forth works of repentance. Scripture tells us to forgive our brother 70 times seven times but only after he says I repent. It does not teach us to give license to sin, nor should we presume the mercy of God and act as if we have a license to sin.
What? God will send to eternal hellfire those that do not believe and continue wickedness, but we can say, I believe in Jesus and we get a pass to do the same things? God forbid!
We do not sin more, so that grace may more abound. Freedom from sin is difficult but not impossible with the grace of God. He tells us narrow is the way, straight is the gate that leads to life. Strive to enter by the straight gate. Pursue holiness without which no one will see the Lord.
The spiritual battle is in our minds. Scripture says for us to be transformed by the renewing of our minds. That involves us to stop listening to false teachers that tell you sin does not matter, you are saved and cannot be lost. If we want salvation, we have to ask for it. How can we ask for it if we allow our minds to be deceived into thinking we do not need it?
The Calvinists are right in one thing is that there is an elect. However they get it wrong in that the elect are not merely those that believe there is an elect. The elect are those that do the will of the Father, which is to repent and live a life of holiness.
Jesus tells us many ways in which salvation can be discarded. One of them is the parable of the seed. We have the seed on the path, the seed on rock, and the seed among thorns. All of those seeds have heard the Gospel and did not put it into practice, some even received it with great joy but discarded it.
Keeping the commandments of God is not impossible, we have to be willing to ask God for help, and then humble enough to accept the help that is offered. He has given some Apostles, some prophets, some teachers, etc. It is arrogant to reject the help God offers and say we don’t need them, I can go to Jesus myself. Ok, how is that working out?
The path of life is hard. Jesus tells us we will be hated by all men for His name’s sake. We are to deny ourselves and take up our cross. The path of life is one of poverty, contempt and humility. We must mortify the deeds of our flesh according to scripture. God loves us and will help us whenever we ask Him, and He has promised to cleanse us from all unrighteousness, but we have to ask.
God does not force Himself on us and that is another error of the Calvinists. Grace is not irresistible. Free will is maintained as God is love and love is not love if it is not free. Scripture says we have set before us the path of life and death, choose which one you will serve, as for me, I will follow the Lord, not with my lips only, but in deeds
Satan lies to us, and tells us that we don’t have to repent. He says you don’t have to follow that hard path, take it easy, don’t run the race, it’s already won. Don’t work out your salvation with fear and trembling, works can’t save you. Holiness? Puhh no one can be holy, so don’t worry about it. Relax, take it easy, suffering is for suckers. Don’t take that path of poverty, contempt and humility. I give you the path of wealth, vain glory, and pride. Don’t deny yourself, puff your self up and have your ears tickled instead.
Satan is an angelic being so he is infinitely more intelligent than us, as can make convincing arguments. We can see through them by comparing them with scripture and the humility of self denial, along with the willingness to accept contempt.
Salvation is available at anytime while we are alive. God has tremendous love and will save anyone that asks Him, but we have to ask Him to cleanse us because now is the time, today is the day of salvation. We stop sinning today, not some pie in the sky future day. The spiritual battle begins now, there is time in eternity for us to rest in a salvation which cannot be lost. For now we are in a battle, so put on the full armor of God and fight against the powers of darkness, else be over run by them. It is your choice

Kathleen30 · 2025-07-04T08:35:29-0500

boughtwithaprice said:
I refer you to sacred scripture which clearly says that we cannot save ourselves, as does the Catholic Church, yet it does not tell us to act presumptuously. We are warned time and again to repent for the kingdom of God is at hand.
We are not told to rest now as salvation is assured. God is merciful, He is also just. God is love and love is voluntary. It requires an act of the will.
Salvation is not lost for those that actively love God. It can be discarded at any time for those that chose to discard God’s commands, do nothing and expect heaven blaming it all on someone that told them Jesus paid it all.
Jesus did pay it all, but if you want salvation, you have to ask for it. He who asks receives, seeks finds and knocks it is opened to them. That includes freedom from sin.
There is no excuse for a believing Christian to sin. The Bible says it is as if you crucify the Son of God afresh and bring Him to open shame. We need to react with horror to our sins, not take a lackadaisical attitude of no big deal, Jesus paid it all.
We can look at God’s warning in the Apocalypse also known as Revelation against taking salvation for granted. Those that have no fear of God say Jesus paid it all. They say I am rich, well fed and have need of nothing. God says they are miserable blind poor and naked. He then charges them to buy of Him gold tried in the fire, and gives promises to those that overcome. Those that won’t, He will vomit out of His mouth.
That is pretty scary.
We like to have our ears tickled and told everything is alright and we don’t have any responsibility, but that is not what the Bible says.
Some misinformed teachers say that, but we are not saved by teachers, we are saved the the Son of God who loves us and gives Himself for us. Do we love Him? Or take Him for granted ? Can we look on His broken body and continue to sin? Realizing that every sin is another spit of contempt, a crack of the whip that tears flesh, blood from His crown of thorns given to mock Him, and another drive of the nails that ended His life?
Can we really sin so easily knowing that is what we are doing? Can we really expect salvation from Him while treating Him with utter contempt? If you sin, that is what you are doing. Why would you scorn a Church that teaches us to confess our sins and not take Our Lord for granted?
Jesus is merciful and He will forgive our weakness, but we have to ask for forgiveness and show forth works of repentance. Scripture tells us to forgive our brother 70 times seven times but only after he says I repent. It does not teach us to give license to sin, nor should we presume the mercy of God and act as if we have a license to sin.
What? God will send to eternal hellfire those that do not believe and continue wickedness, but we can say, I believe in Jesus and we get a pass to do the same things? God forbid!
We do not sin more, so that grace may more abound. Freedom from sin is difficult but not impossible with the grace of God. He tells us narrow is the way, straight is the gate that leads to life. Strive to enter by the straight gate. Pursue holiness without which no one will see the Lord.
The spiritual battle is in our minds. Scripture says for us to be transformed by the renewing of our minds. That involves us to stop listening to false teachers that tell you sin does not matter, you are saved and cannot be lost. If we want salvation, we have to ask for it. How can we ask for it if we allow our minds to be deceived into thinking we do not need it?
The Calvinists are right in one thing is that there is an elect. However they get it wrong in that the elect are not merely those that believe there is an elect. The elect are those that do the will of the Father, which is to repent and live a life of holiness.
Jesus tells us many ways in which salvation can be discarded. One of them is the parable of the seed. We have the seed on the path, the seed on rock, and the seed among thorns. All of those seeds have heard the Gospel and did not put it into practice, some even received it with great joy but discarded it.
Keeping the commandments of God is not impossible, we have to be willing to ask God for help, and then humble enough to accept the help that is offered. He has given some Apostles, some prophets, some teachers, etc. It is arrogant to reject the help God offers and say we don’t need them, I can go to Jesus myself. Ok, how is that working out?
The path of life is hard. Jesus tells us we will be hated by all men for His name’s sake. We are to deny ourselves and take up our cross. The path of life is one of poverty, contempt and humility. We must mortify the deeds of our flesh according to scripture. God loves us and will help us whenever we ask Him, and He has promised to cleanse us from all unrighteousness, but we have to ask.
God does not force Himself on us and that is another error of the Calvinists. Grace is not irresistible. Free will is maintained as God is love and love is not love if it is not free. Scripture says we have set before us the path of life and death, choose which one you will serve, as for me, I will follow the Lord, not with my lips only, but in deeds
Satan lies to us, and tells us that we don’t have to repent. He says you don’t have to follow that hard path, take it easy, don’t run the race, it’s already won. Don’t work out your salvation with fear and trembling, works can’t save you. Holiness? Puhh no one can be holy, so don’t worry about it. Relax, take it easy, suffering is for suckers. Don’t take that path of poverty, contempt and humility. I give you the path of wealth, vain glory, and pride. Don’t deny yourself, puff your self up and have your ears tickled instead.
Satan is an angelic being so he is infinitely more intelligent than us, as can make convincing arguments. We can see through them by comparing them with scripture and the humility of self denial, along with the willingness to accept contempt.
Salvation is available at anytime while we are alive. God has tremendous love and will save anyone that asks Him, but we have to ask Him to cleanse us because now is the time, today is the day of salvation. We stop sinning today, not some pie in the sky future day. The spiritual battle begins now, there is time in eternity for us to rest in a salvation which cannot be lost. For now we are in a battle, so put on the full armor of God and fight against the powers of darkness, else be over run by them. It is your choice

Broughtwithaprice. Again we are sealed unto the day of redemption. Full redemption occurs when we recieve out resurrection bodies who can break that promise. Not you nor other religion claiming they can break the seal of God

You say that God does not force his will upon us. Yet scripture says the opposite God does certainly force himself on whomever he chooses

you say there is no excuse for a believing Christian to sin. Yet it happens to every Christian on a daily basis. It is inexcusable to say that we do not . Whilst we inherit our fallen nature we will continue to sin. Broughtwithaperice until cometh that perfect day. The resurrection when sin will entertain us no more. We are in a transitional period. The sin nature is only temporary for those saved in Christ while we remain in our sinful fallen nature. You again mention Calvinism. All Calvinism ever done was restore the Sovereignty of God in having to right to choose and going back to roots of the Bible for such authority and along with such notable church fathers as St Augustine who believed much the same . But you continue to ignore St Augustine. Because what you teach was not always the teaching of the church that being your claim that a believer can lose their salvation. But you may continue to believe as you please.

boughtwithaprice · 2025-07-05T07:38:11-0500

Kathleen30 said:
Broughtwithaprice. Again we are sealed unto the day of redemption. Full redemption occurs when we recieve out resurrection bodies who can break that promise. Not you nor other religion claiming they can break the seal of God View attachment 367099 You say that God does not force his will upon us. Yet scripture says the opposite God does certainly force himself on whomever he chooses View attachment 367100you say there is no excuse for a believing Christian to sin. Yet it happens to every Christian on a daily basis. It is inexcusable to say that we do not . Whilst we inherit our fallen nature we will continue to sin. Broughtwithaperice until cometh that perfect day. The resurrection when sin will entertain us no more. We are in a transitional period. The sin nature is only temporary for those saved in Christ while we remain in our sinful fallen nature. You again mention Calvinism. All Calvinism ever done was restore the Sovereignty of God in having to right to choose and going back to roots of the Bible for such authority and along with such notable church fathers as St Augustine who believed much the same . But you continue to ignore St Augustine. Because what you teach was not always the teaching of the church that being your claim that a believer can lose their salvation. But you may continue to believe as you please.

You misunderstand the scriptures and Saint Augustine. There is no scripture that says God forces His will upon us. It is the opposite.
In the Apocolalypse(Revelation) we read the Spirit and the Bride say come. Whosoever will come drink of the waters of life freely.

You need to read St Augustine again, or if you have not, then actually read his writings and not take quotes apart from the whole.
Are you familiar with the heresy of Jansenism?
It is a good study of history if you would take the time to read it.

Scripture also tells us in apocalypse 3, Behold I stand at the door and knock. If any man open the door I will come in and he will sup with me and I with him. There is no mention of God forcing His will upon us. He waits for consent
He did not even force His will upon Mary, though He greatly desired to save us through her. He waited for her consent and Our Lady said, behold the handmaid of the Lord, be it done to me according to thy word.

The teaching of the Church is that there is mortal and venial sin. All sin is without excuse, yet scripture says that those that commit mortal sin should not think they have any inheritance in the kingdom of God. We are to live circumspect lives and mortify the deeds of our flesh.
The Church teaches us to detach our hearts from material things and the esteem of the the world, as friendship with the world is enmity with God. If we neglect that duty and continue on thinking because we merely believe in Jesus we need not change, how can we think that we are following in His footsteps?
Scripture tells us that there is a class of people that think they are saved but are not. How do we know who they are and we are not one of them.
Scripture says to strive to make your calling and election sure. We do that through humility, obedience and well doing.
All of those are works which some say that we do not have to worry about. Scripture says otherwise. Jesus tells us to walk the narrow way, enter the straight gate. In Acts we read that it is only through much hardship that we enter into life. The spiritual battle requires continual self denial.
It would be horrific to live a life thinking we are saved, yet when we appear before Jesus, He says I never knew you, away from me ye that commit iniquity. Jesus does not save sin. He saves sinners. Sinners are saved unto good works. Good works are hard as they do not feel good, but we do them out of obedience to the word of truth

As you say, you are free to believe as you wish, but if you are not mortifying your flesh, you risk Jesus saying, I never knew you

How is it that the Catholic Church is evil?

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