The Harm Caused by Excessive Criticism of the Roman Catholic Church and Other Denominations

Akita Suggagaki · 2025-06-30T12:06:43-0500

The Liturgist said:
With regards to themselves, they are distracting themselves from what the Greek fathers called “nepsis”, that is to say, watchfulness, over their own sins, by focusing on the alleged or historical sins of others which are in many cases literally ancient history.

I am so glad you mention Nepsis.

Matthew 25: 13 “Therefore keep watch, because you do not know the day or the hour.

It is so easy to get swept up and carried away in the distractions of the world, especially what we perceive in sins of others. When all the while the important thing is to be aware of the plank in out own eye. But sometimes it is not as big as a plank an this is where spiritual grown enables us to see more and more, subtler and subtler sins within ourselves.

But Nepsis is the core discipline of awareness, alertness, mindfulness, keeping watch.

Gregory Thompson · 2025-06-30T13:51:31-0500

The Liturgist said:
Anyone who spends an inordinate amount of time attacking a particular denomination, is harming themselves and others.

The seed that fell among thorns.

The Liturgist · 2025-06-30T22:45:53-0500

Akita Suggagaki said:
I am so glad you mention Nepsis.

Matthew 25: 13 “Therefore keep watch, because you do not know the day or the hour.

It is so easy to get swept up and carried away in the distractions of the world, especially what we perceive in sins of others. When all the while the important thing is to be aware of the plank in out own eye. But sometimes it is not as big as a plank an this is where spiritual grown enables us to see more and more, subtler and subtler sins within ourselves.

But Nepsis is the core discipline of awareness, alertness, mindfulness, keeping watch.

Nepsis with regards to our sins and apatheia regarding the world is something taught to Orthodox catechumens.

The Liturgist · 2025-06-30T22:49:50-0500

SabbathBlessings said:
So what about the sins of Rome that are truths? Are we to ignore them and allow for the cover up by the revisions of history?

If they distract from focusing on your own repentence, than yes. As for the cover up “by the revisions of history”, a great many of the things people accuse the Roman Catholics of are falsehoods, or else are communicated in a way that ignores the Eastern Orthodox, Oriental Orthodox and the Church of the East, primarily because most 19th century anti-Catholic polemicists were unaware of our existence or just thought we were Roman Catholics but with funny hats.

The Liturgist · 2025-06-30T22:54:21-0500

SabbathBlessings said:
Sure, there are people who sin in all churches no doubt. Doctrine is what sets churches apart. There are many people who claim to be SDA's who choose not to follow our church beliefs, just like I am sure its the same for all churches.

Doesn't the CC claim the pope as infallible yet has done all these things, I know are not coming from the God of the Bible.

The doctrine of Papal Infalliblity did not exist until the 19th century, its promulgation caused a schism with the Old Catholic churches, who are Roman Catholics that reject Papal Infallibility, another church the anti-Roman Catholic polemicists ignore (in this case completely), and furthermore it has only been used twice, to adopt a popular 19th century doctrine and in 1955 to adopt a doctrine, that of the Assumption, which had been part of the faith of the Eastern Orthodox and Oriental Orthodox since the 1st century, but which for some reason the celebration of which in Rome had lapsed for several centuries (as witnessed by the existence of ancient churches in Greece dedicated to it and ancient icons of it; the idea that the doctrine originated in 1955 is another anti-Roman Catholic, anti-Orthodox smear).

The Liturgist · 2025-06-30T22:55:57-0500

BNR32FAN said:
Oh there’s so many erroneous posts to address here but in respect of the OP I’ll just keep my mouth shut.

I am not disrespected by your commenting upon them, as long as you don’t do so in a way that distracts from your own metanoia. And I am confident that you won’t, since you have evinced great piety on the forums and I regard you as a treasured friend, even though I disagree with some of your posts, I mostly agree with them.

The Liturgist · 2025-06-30T22:59:46-0500

Ivan Hlavanda said:
The OT prophets never spent any time calling out the false leaders of Israel and their sins...oh wait

They were in a position to do so because they had repented of the sins in question themselves, and furthermore the sins they criticized among the Israelis were real sins, and furthermore what they were actually doing, as implied by the word “prophet” was engaging in prophecy, about the coming of Christ our True God, which He confirmed in Luke chapter 24, before His Ascension, when he “Opened the books” for the Apostles and showed them how all the Law and the Prophets testified about him.

Furthermore, if we read the Prophets criticisms of Israel as only applying to Israel, and not generally, we do ourselves a disservice, because ancient Israel was so very human. Like all of us, it repented of a sin, only to return to that same sin, sometimes within the same generation, “like a dog to its vomit.” This is the human pattern…sin, get frightened, repent, get rescued by God, remain repenting for a while, get bored, return to sin, rinse, wash and repeat, do not fold, spindle or mutilate.

The Liturgist · 2025-06-30T23:05:21-0500

2PhiloVoid said:
Don't look at me! I'm not the one here going around poking other Trinitarian Christians in the eye (unless they're racist or dominionists). However, I might be the one guilty of analytically snapping a finger or two when those fingers are used to probe my own eye-sockets.

I'm not going to put up with any of that sort of inverted, misapplied "spiritual" discernment. I didn't put up with it 40 years ago; I'm still not going to today.

I was not looking at you in the slightest my friend! Actually I was not calling out any individual members of Christian Forums, but rather urging everyone tempted to continually attack a denomination, whether Catholic or a different denomination, to the point of beating a dead horse with tired arguments to take a look inward.

For example, I have criticized the mainline Protestant churches for recent doctrinal changes concerning homosexuality, but the flipside is I have very warm relations with members of some of these denominations, particularly the Episcopal Church (of which I was a member and which I love very much, despite its errors), and I don’t talk about these issues that much, except on those unfortunate occasions when something else occurs, but I do so from the perspective of being the chief of sinners - I do not regard the members of those churches as being morally inferior to me, or being more sinful than I am. Which is why I admire you as a member; you cannot be accused of a “holier than thou” disposition.

The Liturgist · 2025-06-30T23:09:46-0500

seeking.IAM said:
I wish we did a better job of recognizing our commonality and embracing each other as fellow believers instead of criticizing others over differences. The simple solution is if you disagree with someone else's belief or affiliation, worship elsewhere. There are a lot of good things about CF. Our sniping at each other is not one of them, in my opinion.

I agree entirely. As you know, I disagree with some current practices of the Episcopal Church, but i love the Episcopal CHurch and I have never allowed my objections to some recent developments in the Episcopal Church to get between myself and my Episcopalian friends such as yourself. Indeed several of my favorite churches in the US, such as St. Thomas Fifth Ave, are Episcopalian (I’m hoping the boys choir at San Diego is revived soon - they’ve been trying to bring it back since Covid, so far without success, but it used to be the West Coast rival to St. Thomas; there are a few other youth choirs on the East Coast such as at Trinity on the Green. Distressingly, there are none in Canada that I am aware of.

I should add I would have joined the Order of the Holy Cross had it been possible for one person to stop the closure of their monastery on the West Coast. And I would return to the Episcopal Church if I thought i could help the church in a meaningful way to regain members. The liturgical diversity permitted in the Episcopal Church while retaining liturgical unity and the popularity of Divine Office services are inspirational.

chevyontheriver · 2025-06-30T23:12:11-0500

Akita Suggagaki said:
I am so glad you mention Nepsis.

Matthew 25: 13 “Therefore keep watch, because you do not know the day or the hour.

It is so easy to get swept up and carried away in the distractions of the world, especially what we perceive in sins of others. When all the while the important thing is to be aware of the plank in out own eye. But sometimes it is not as big as a plank an this is where spiritual grown enables us to see more and more, subtler and subtler sins within ourselves.

But Nepsis is the core discipline of awareness, alertness, mindfulness, keeping watch.

Conceptually interesting. How does that compare to the current psychology mindfulness craze?

The Liturgist · 2025-06-30T23:15:46-0500

chevyontheriver said:
Conceptually interesting. How does that compare to the current psychology mindfulness craze?

No comparison. Nepsis is a Greek Patristic concept focused on the avoidance of sin, whereas mindfulness comes from Buddhism which is not built upon a hamartiological framework but on “self-awareness” and which is ultimately connected to the Nihilist, annihlationist doctrines at the heart of Buddhism - the ultimate goal of Buddhism in its original forms was to escape the cycle of death and rebirth to non-existence, a delusion shared with other Indian religions.

Later, Mahayana Buddhism and others came up with the idea of “Pure Lands” which are reached by the Arishants who attain enlightenment and in that respect are closer to Christianity, but these forms of Buddhism were influenced by non-Indian religions of the Far East and are syncretic - pure Therevada Buddhism tends to shy away from them.

The Liturgist · 2025-06-30T23:19:22-0500

Akita Suggagaki said:
mindfulness

Mindfulness if understood in a non-Buddhist concept; specifically, being mindful of our sins, as opposed to the buzzword kind of mindfulness.

I wish you hadn’t used that word, because it will cause needless alarm, and I hadn’t noticed you had used it, or else I would have objected to it; Nepsis has been stressed by Orthodoxy and also by those Orthoodox churches that would later enter into communion with the Pope after 1054, the sui juris Greek Catholic churches, since the first millennium.

SabbathBlessings · 2025-07-01T06:36:03-0500

The Liturgist said:
If they distract from focusing on your own repentence, than yes.

This isn't another thread on SDA's. You already dedicated over 22 pages on us, perhaps when you said

Anyone who spends an inordinate amount of time attacking a particular denomination,

it doesn't apply to you for some reason along with the Scriptures you posted

The Liturgist said:
As for the cover up “by the revisions of history”, a great many of the things people accuse the Roman Catholics of are falsehoods, or else are communicated in a way that ignores the Eastern Orthodox, Oriental Orthodox and the Church of the East, primarily because most 19th century anti-Catholic polemicists were unaware of our existence or just thought we were Roman Catholics but with funny hats.

And a great many things are true yet people seem to act likes its no big deal for some strange reason. Jesus condemned sin, He does not ask us to cover it Pro 28:13 and sin is His definition

I guess all of this will get sorted out soon enough.

Joseph G · 2025-07-01T06:46:13-0500

Hey, does anybody want to talk about their personal walk with Jesus? The latest bit of wisdom about God as revealed by His indwelling Holy Spirit? The incredible interconnectedness of canonical Scripture such as prophecies fulfilled? Praise reports? Prayer requests? The will of the Father and the commands of the Son?

Jesus?

biblegateway.com

The Liturgist · 2025-07-01T07:02:54-0500

SabbathBlessings said:
This isn't another thread on SDA's. You already dedicated over 22 pages on us, perhaps when you said

No, I dedicated 50 pages to defending Roman Catholics and other liturgical Christians from unwarranted criticism, not just from your denomination but many others, and I have also defended your denomination when someone falsely accused it of being non-Christian.

I do this as a penance, to try to make peace, not because it distracts from my own sins. And this thread is not an attack on Adventists but on excess criticism of denominations.

The Liturgist · 2025-07-01T07:04:49-0500

Joseph G said:
Hey, does anybody want to talk about their personal walk with Jesus? The latest bit of wisdom about God as revealed by His indwelling Holy Spirit? The incredible interconnectedness of canonical Scripture such as prophecies fulfilled? Praise reports? Prayer requests? The will of the Father and the commands of the Son?

Jesus?

biblegateway.com

Yes, and that is the point of this thread - rather than members of denomination A relentlessly criticizing denomination B, we should be doing that. I would rather be sharing the beauty of the traditional liturgies with members of the forum than defending Roman Catholics from false accusations, or defending Adventists and others from equally false accusations.

SabbathBlessings · 2025-07-01T07:08:27-0500

The Liturgist said:
No, I dedicated 50 pages to defending Roman Catholics and other liturgical Christians from unwarranted criticism, not just from your denomination but many others, and I have also defended your denomination when someone falsely accused it of being non-Christian.

I do this as a penance, to try to make peace, not because it distracts from my own sins. And this thread is not an attack on Adventists but on excess criticism of denominations.

We shouldn't have any personal attacks because it shouldn't be about the people, there are good people in all denominations and bad people alike in all of them. What separates us is doctrine and we should never come together at the sake of God's Truth being lost. And His Truth is His definition, not ours.

Anyway, I will bow out, but wish you all a blessed day.

The Liturgist · 2025-07-01T07:16:27-0500

SabbathBlessings said:
We shouldn't have any personal attacks p

I agree, which is why I never engage in them.

seeking.IAM · 2025-07-01T08:03:38-0500

The Liturgist said:
As you know, I disagree with some current practices of the Episcopal Church, but i love the Episcopal CHurch

This is one of the things we share in common. I can say the same thing.

The Liturgist said:
And I would return to the Episcopal Church if I thought i could help the church in a meaningful way to regain members

My congregation added 42 new members in the last year! Don't count us out yet. The Anglican expression of Christianity is alive and well in some places even with its flaws, which I think all Christian expressions have, albeit differently.

BNR32FAN · 2025-07-01T10:57:06-0500

SabbathBlessings said:
This isn't another thread on SDA's. You already dedicated over 22 pages on us, perhaps when you said

it doesn't apply to you for some reason along with the Scriptures you posted

And a great many things are true yet people seem to act likes its no big deal for some strange reason. Jesus condemned sin, He does not ask us to cover it Pro 28:13 and sin is His definition

I guess all of this will get sorted out soon enough.

I think what he’s referring to in the op is attributing the sins of individuals within a specific denomination to that entire denomination and making false accusations against churches because of the actions of individuals within that church who are not acting in accordance to what the church considers to be acceptable behavior. This refrainment would not carry over to doctrinal issues that specific churches actually do teach.

The Harm Caused by Excessive Criticism of the Roman Catholic Church and Other Denominations

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