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Trump-enomics

SimplyMe

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Except it's not really a new tax, and it's not exclusive to EV owners. People driving gas-powered vehicles are paying the tax also every time they fill up. From the link above:

If you drive a gas-powered car, you already help pay to maintain Pennsylvania’s road and bridge network through gas taxes. The new law creates a fair way for all drivers to help maintain Pennsylvania’s transportation network, ensuring that EV and PHEV owners who pay no or very little gas tax are also contributing to Pennsylvania’s Motor License Fund for highway and bridge maintenance.

Ok, you made me look it up. Pennsylvania has pretty much the highest gasoline tax of any state, $0.576 per gallon. For your average gasoline car, if I figured it right this morning, you'll be paying roughly 2 cents per mile in tax for every mile driven. So, over 15,000 miles per year (the average amount per car driven per year is between 12,000 and 15,000 miles) a gas car would be paying around $300 -- so the current fees for an EV (which are far more efficient than ICE cars) doesn't sound out of line -- other than it would be good if there was an option for EVs to pay $.02/mile driven rather than a flat fee.

The issue is that the federal gasoline tax is $0.184/gallon, less than a third of what Pennsylvania state gas tax is -- yet Trump and Republicans are trying to charge EV owners the same rate as what Pennsylvania will be charging. Instead, as pointed out, the federal charge should be closer to $100 if you aren't trying to penalize people for driving EVs.

Why? Every time someone fills up their car, they are paying taxes to maintain PA's roads. If you have an EV, you aren't paying into that, even though you are driving on the same roads. So why do you think it's unfair?

Also, it's not a proposal. It went into effect on April 1, 2025 in PA.

Read what he stated, he has no issue with EVs paying a fair amount. I can't speak for wing2000, but I'm guessing either 1) he's talking specifically about the federal tax, which I've shown is not fair compared to what ICE drivers pay or 2) he's talking about how a flat fee for EVs is not fair when a gas car pays based on the amount they actually drive. I probably drive 5000-ish miles per year now, so a flat $250 if I register an EV is grossly unfair, when if I had a gas car I'd pay less than $33/year in federal gasoline tax (and even only $100 in state gasoline tax, if I lived in Pennsylvania).
 
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wing2000

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I should be clear that I'm talking only about the PA tax.

In PA, if you drove 10,000 miles per year and averaged 25 mpg, you would pay $230.40 in state-imposed taxes at the current rate of $0.576 per gallon.

Yes, I understand. In PA, you play a flat registration fee correct?
In Arizona, registration is based on the car's value, typically hundreds of dollars annually on a newer vehicle.
 
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probinson

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Should we take into account the fact that EVs cause roads to wear considerably faster than ICE vehicles?

 
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wing2000

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Should we take into account the fact that EVs cause roads to wear considerably faster than ICE vehicles?


...check your link.

I assume the argument is EV's additional weight = more road wear?
In that case, tax based on vehicle weight.

Or better yet, scrap the gas tax.

Implement nation wide toll rolls on all federal highways. If you use it, pay for it.
 
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probinson

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Yes, I understand. In PA, you play a flat registration fee correct?

Correct. PA charges a flat registration fee of $48 for passenger vehicles. That's when they'll collect the Road User Charge as well. So an EV owner will pay $248 and a PHEV owner will pay $98.

In Arizona, registration is based on the car's value, typically hundreds of dollars annually on a newer vehicle.

I just looked that up. Arizona pays WAY higher annual registration fees but the gas tax in Arizona is $0.18 per gallon while it's $0.576 per gallon in PA.
 
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probinson

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...check your link.

Sorry. Not sure what happened. It's fixed now.

I assume the argument is EV's additional weight = more road wear?
In that case, tax based on vehicle weight.

Or better yet, scrap the gas tax.

Implement nation wide toll rolls on all federal highways. If you use it, pay for it.

I'm guessing you've never driven in PA, which has the honor of having the most expensive turnpike (toll road) in the WORLD.

 
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wing2000

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Correct. PA charges a flat registration fee of $48 for passenger vehicles. That's when they'll collect the Road User Charge as well. So an EV owner will pay $248 and a PHEV owner will pay $98.



I just looked that up. Arizona pays WAY higher annual registration fees but the gas tax in Arizona is $0.18 per gallon while it's $0.576 per gallon in PA.

Sounds like a good reason for the Congress to leave it to the states. I would still prefer the whole system to be overhauled based on tolls.

I'm guessing you've never driven in PA, which has the honor of having the most expensive turnpike (toll road) in the WORLD.

Yes, I have driven the PA turnpike, though not in the past 10 years or so. Why do you think it's so expensive?
 
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probinson

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Yes, I have driven the PA turnpike, though not in the past 10 years or so. Why do you think it's so expensive?

I have no idea. I think our lawmakers just like charging us Pennsylvanians as much as they can. We have the highest gas tax in the US, and the most expensive toll road in the world. Luckily, I live close enough to the OH/PA line that I usually get my gas over there, where gas can sometimes be up to $0.50/gallon cheaper.
 
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SimplyMe

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Should we take into account the fact that EVs cause roads to wear considerably faster than ICE vehicles?


I'm guessing you posted the wrong link but, regardless, it is untrue. What makes it worse is the trend over the last several decades to larger and larger cars and trucks -- gas cars are, on average, roughly a third heavier than when the federal road usage charge was last raised. At the same time, thanks to CAFE and other fuel efficiency advancements, these larger cars and trucks still get roughly the same fuel economy as cars did 30 years ago, so they still pay the same tax despite the increased weight of cars.

At the same time, the average EV may weigh 30% more than a similar ICE car, so while they are heavier, that difference is similar to the increase in weight in ICE cars over the last 30 years -- and we did nothing to charge these heavier cars more. This merely points out that the complaints of the weight of EVs in making them "more damaging" and "causing more damage in collisions" are little more than distractions -- since similar arguments haven't been made about the increase in size of ICE cars. There is also an argument to be made that the average EV sold (on average a mid-sized car or SUV) are smaller than the average ICE car sold (typically a standard-sized car or SUV, so a step up in size), so the weight between an ICE car and an EV tend to be fairly similar. Not to mention, as battery and construction methods improve for EVs, the weight has been going down on them.

But the major point, personal cars and trucks do not cause most of the wear and tear on our roads. Instead, wear and tear are primarily caused by trucks, with the most damage being caused by semi-trucks and their trailers, which weigh about 7 times more than either an ICE or an EV. It has caused researchers on the topic to conclude, "Load-related damage to pavement and bridges is caused almost exclusively by heavy trucks. The deterioration from a single large truck can easily be equal to that of thousands of autos. The contribution from autos and light trucks is insignificant. It makes no difference if they are EV or internal combustion." (quote from Mark Gottlieb, associate director of the University of Wisconsin-Milwaukee’s Institute for Physical Infrastructure and Transportation).

Additionally, even if you are talking about the added weight to rural roads and bridges, where semi-trucks may not normally travel, then you have the issue that typically one of the primary personal "cars" driven is a type of pickup truck, almost all of which are heavier than most EVs -- particularly when you start talking of "heavy duty" trucks that have larger engines and truck beds that farmers/ranchers often need, and the weight of the items hauled in the bed of the truck.

Edit: Now that you fixed the link, the interesting part is the article stating, "the problem that really has agencies worried is car haulers. These large trucks are designed to carry around five to nine vehicles at once. The federal government currently has a restriction that limits car haulers to a gross weight of 80,000 pounds, including the truck and trailer that account for half of the vehicle’s weight. Many argue that this restriction is dated and prevents the delivery of these strongly desired vehicles—so much so that some truckers are lobbying for the federal government to increase the weight limits of these trucks so they can meet the demands of society."

Note that the sentence doesn't talk about EVs, it instead talks about "strongly desired vehicles" -- which are pickups and SUVs, the vehicles which have contributed the most to the 1/3 increase in weight of ICE cars in the last 30 years. They are saying the worst problem, while EVs may cause some of the issue with car haulers, are not the "strongly desired vehicles" that are causing the trucking industry to attempt to raise the limit on the weight of car haulers (which they identify as the major worry).
 
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Fantine

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Same place as the jobs under Biden.

That is why Trump-enomics will release the strength of our economy and workmanship with hundreds of billions in investment and good high paying jobs.
Unemployment was minimal under Biden, lower than it is now.
 
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Always in His Presence

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This is happening at the state level also. PA just instituted a "Road User Charge" for owners of EVs and PHEVs. In 2025 when you renew your registration, there is now a $200 road user change added for EVs and a $50 charge for PHEVs. In 2026, that number increases to $250 for EVs and $63 for PHEVs. In 2027 and beyond, the rate will continue to increase based on the consumer price index.
Who did that? DEMOCRATIC Governor Shapiro - not a Republican.
 
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Always in His Presence

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Yes, I have driven the PA turnpike, though not in the past 10 years or so. Why do you think it's so expensive?
Because Democrats have never met a tax they didn't endorse.
 
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wing2000

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SimplyMe

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Because Democrats have never met a tax they didn't endorse.

Odd, then, that the Democrats all seem to be opposed to this tax; and it is MAGA Republicans trying to "punish" EV owners with a punitive tax. It is almost like these MAGA Republicans were lying when they said they wanted to free market to decide about EVs.
 
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probinson

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I'm guessing you posted the wrong link

I did. It's fixed.

but, regardless, it is untrue.

It is absolutely true that heavier vehicles cause greater road wear and it is absolutely true that EVs weigh considerably more than their equivalent ICE counterparts. Therefore, it is absolutely true that EVs cause greater road wear than their ICE equivalents.
 
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SimplyMe

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I did. It's fixed.



It is absolutely true that heavier vehicles cause greater road wear and it is absolutely true that EVs weigh considerably more than their equivalent ICE counterparts. Therefore, it is absolutely true that EVs cause greater road wear than their ICE equivalents.

Did you read what I wrote and the link I provided? How much damage does a 3,000 pound car do, compared to a 4,000 pound car, compared to a 5,000 pound pick-up, compared to an 80,000 pound semi? I'm sorry, the vast majority of road damage -- per your own link -- is from diesel powered semi-trucks and trailers. Also, the fact remains the fastest selling ICE vehicles tend to be just as heavy, if not heavier, than the standard EV sold -- again, 5,000 pound SUVs and trucks (the most popular ICE vehicles) tend to weigh more than 4,000 pound EVs (since mid-sized EVs are the vast majority of EVs sold).

And why is there no concern about the road damage done by the best selling vehicle in the US, the F-150 (which is up to 6,000 lbs as an ICE vehicle, heavier than EV cars), but only about EVs? Surely if EV cars or so terrible at road damage, we should consider banning pickup trucks unless you have a legitimate need for your business?
 
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probinson

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Did you read what I wrote and the link I provided? How much damage does a 3,000 pound car do, compared to a 4,000 pound car, compared to a 5,000 pound pick-up, compared to an 80,000 pound semi?

I already answered you. It's a well-established fact that heavier vehicles cause more damage than lighter vehicles.

I'm sorry, the vast majority of road damage -- per your own link -- is from diesel powered semi-trucks and trailers.

That is completely irrelevant. The salient point is that heavier vehicles cause greater road wear. That is not debatable.

Also, the fact remains the fastest selling ICE vehicles tend to be just as heavy, if not heavier, than the standard EV sold

The fact remains that if you buy an equivalent EV, it will ALWAYS be heavier. For example, the Ford F-150 Lighting is about 35% heavier than its Ford F-150 ICE counterpart, as just one example.

-- again, 5,000 pound SUVs and trucks (the most popular ICE vehicles) tend to weigh more than 4,000 pound EVs (since mid-sized EVs are the vast majority of EVs sold).

Why are you comparing SUVs to sedans? If you compare mid-sized EVs to their mid-sized ICE counterpart, they will weigh more, every time.

Also, heavier ICE vehicles use more fuel. Ergo, they already pay far more in road use taxes. The fact that heavier ICE vehicles are less fuel-efficient means that they will pay more in road use taxes because they use more gallons of fuel.

And why is there no concern about the road damage done by the best selling vehicle in the US, the F-150 (which is up to 6,000 lbs as an ICE vehicle, heavier than EV cars), but only about EVs?

As I already pointed out, the Ford F-150 Lightning is ~35% heavier than its ICE equivalent. People with F-150's are spending FAR more in gas, and therefore are contributing FAR more in road use taxes.

I can't take you seriously when you're trying to compare full-size pickup trucks to passenger cars.
 
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SimplyMe

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I already answered you. It's a well-established fact that heavier vehicles cause more damage than lighter vehicles.

Yes, and the heaviest vehicles out there are semis, 10 times the weight of pretty much all cars and light trucks. As your own article stated, it is those vehicles that are the heavy vehicles that cause the problem.

That is completely irrelevant. The salient point is that heavier vehicles cause greater road wear. That is not debatable.

So why do you keep debating it by claiming it is EVs, when they are only slightly more heavy, not 10 times the weight.

The fact remains that if you buy an equivalent EV, it will ALWAYS be heavier. For example, the Ford F-150 Lighting is about 35% heavier than its Ford F-150 ICE counterpart, as just one example.

No, it is currently heavier. We'll see what happens in the next decade, as batteries become more energy dense.

And, no, the Lightning is not 35% heavier than than an F-150 ICE counterpart. At most it is 25%, though even then you are comparing a lower trim level (and much less power) to a higher trim EV. Yes, there is a slightly lighter F-150 but it is a regular cab, 2-wheel drive with a 2.7L engine (325 HP) that does not compare to any version of the Lightning (which are all crew cab, 4-wheel drive, and a minimum of 452 HP. And, as you go up trim levels, the difference is actually smaller between the ICE and the Lightning.

Why are you comparing SUVs to sedans? If you compare mid-sized EVs to their mid-sized ICE counterpart, they will weigh more, every time.

I'm not comparing SUVs to sedans. I'm comparing the cars currently selling the best, which for ICE are things like the F-150 (and other trucks) and large SUVs. As I mentioned, the F-150 Ice is the best selling car in America, with over 300,000 sold per year (and less than 10% of those are Lightning models). When you look at EVs, as people here have previously pointed out, over 50% of the EVs sold in the US each year are the Tesla Model Y and Model 3, which weigh a maximum of about 4,400 lbs and 4,000 lbs -- so less than the F-150 that is the top ICE vehicle.

Also, heavier ICE vehicles use more fuel. Ergo, they already pay far more in road use taxes. The fact that heavier ICE vehicles are less fuel-efficient means that they will pay more in road use taxes because they use more gallons of fuel.

Great, and under the current bill (since we're still waiting to hear the final version) EVs would still pay more than almost all ICE vehicles, including ones far heavier than their EV. Again, EVs would be paying the equivalent of a gas car that gets 12 mpg or less -- and for someone that drives under 10,000 miles per year, it is closer to larger trucks (box trucks when fully loaded) that get 5 mpg, which are definitely far heavier than EVs and cause far more damage to the roadways.

As I already pointed out, the Ford F-150 Lightning is ~35% heavier than its ICE equivalent. People with F-150's are spending FAR more in gas, and therefore are contributing FAR more in road use taxes.

I can't take you seriously when you're trying to compare full-size pickup trucks to passenger cars.

No, again, more like 25% (and less) depending on configuration. And even small, lighter EVs, like the Chevy Bolt, Nissan Leaf, Mini Cooper, Fiat 500e (all around or under 3,500 lbs) would still pay far more in tax than most F-150s on the road today (most of which still tend to get 20 mpg up to even 25 mpg, with the lowest version only about 18 mpg).

And, again, the most popular ICE vehicles sold in the US tend to be quite large -- like the absolutely best selling car being the F-150. Yet, as pointed out, the best selling EVs are much smaller -- with the best selling EVs being mid-sized cars, the Tesla Model 3 sedan and the Tesla Model Y SUV. I can't take you seriously when you try to compare all EVs to the F-150 Lightning, when it is a rather modest selling EV, but its ICE counterpart is absolutely the best selling "car" in the US.

Let me try it this way for you: the number 1 selling "car" last year was the Ford F-series (not just the F-150, but also the F-250 and F-350), so just the F-150 can weigh up to 5,740 in an ICE variant, though the F-350 starts over 6,000 lbs and goes up over 7,700 lbs. The best selling EV was the Tesla Model Y, which is a max of about 4,400 pounds. My point is the best selling ICE "car" is much heavier than the best selling EV.

If we go to the #2 seller, that is the Chevrolet Silverado vs. the Tesla Model 3; so again, we are looking at a truck between 4400 and 5800 lbs vs an EV that has a maximum weight of 4,000 lbs. As you go through the list of best selling cars vs. best selling EVs, you see this repeat over and over. One of the few that aren't that way is when you get to the Toyota RAV4, which is lighter than the Ford Mach E; you also get the Honda CR-V vs. the Hyundai Ioniq 5 but, surprisingly, those two are fairly close in weight. Your issue then is that the next couple of ICE vehicles are the RAM pickup and the GMC Sierra.

Again, the ICE cars selling the most tend to be very heavy, yet there is zero concern of the damage these large pickups are doing to the roads; for some reason it is only brought up when discussing EVs -- not to mention, again, that even your article said the major issue was semi-trucks and trailers (which are 10x heavier than even these pickup trucks). And, again, some of these trucks will pay roughly half in gasoline tax what the Trump administration is trying to get from all EVs, even the light ones and despite how many miles they are driven.
 
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FAITH-IN-HIM

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Just saw this on Yahoo finance. Stocks have been rising, but it does not sound as if the economy is that healthy right now. Trump's solution is to announce who he is nominating to replace Jerome Powell as chair of the Fed as soon as he can. While Powell can't be pushed out until his term ends next year, if Trump telegraphs his replacement It is believed that will hurt Powell's influence on the economy. As usual, Trump wants to push Powell into lowering interest rates sooner than may be prudent and punishing him if he does not.
As a retired person, I feel much more comfortable with a president who appoints well respected experts in their fields and lets them do their jobs. Powell successfully helped our country recover from global inflationary pressures. Lowering interest rates too soon can reignite inflation, which could also be ignited by tariffs.
Are you concerned, too?
I do not agree with President Trump's economic policies. I am a globalist who supports free trade and free markets. President Trump, on the other hand, follows a more isolationist approach that is completely opposed to free market capitalism.

I am concerned about the economy, as we are likely heading toward economic turmoil.

However, the full impact remains to be seen. It typically takes 12 to 18 months to affect an economy of the size of the USA. Therefore, it is premature to attribute the current economic conditions solely to President Trump or label it as the "Trump economy."

Contrary to pundits' warnings, tariffs have not spiked prices or inflation. Most economists predicted a stock market drop and soaring inflation, but neither occurred. The stock market is at a record high and inflation remains stable.
 
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FAITH-IN-HIM

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Here’s a roundup of major companies that have announced significant expansions or investments in the U.S. over the past six months (early 2025):

Manufacturing & Technology

  • Apple – Committed $500 billion to expand U.S. manufacturing, including a new AI server facility in Houston.
  • TSMC – Boosted its U.S. investment to $165 billion, adding chip fabs and R&D centers in Arizona.
  • Nvidia – Building its first U.S.-based chip and supercomputer plants in Texas and Arizona.
  • GE Aerospace – Investing $1 billion to expand its U.S. supply chain and manufacturing.

Pharmaceuticals & Healthcare

  • Johnson & Johnson – Announced $55 billion in U.S. investments for pharma and tech facilities.
  • Eli Lilly – Expanding with four new U.S. plants, totaling $50 billion in investment.
  • AbbVie – Committed $10 billion to build four new pharmaceutical plants.
  • Genentech – Pledged $50 billion for biotech manufacturing and research.

Automotive & Mobility

  • Hyundai – Investing $21 billion in U.S. operations through 2028, including a new steel plant in Louisiana.
  • Honda – Shifting all Civic Hybrid production to Indiana.
  • Toyota – Expanding hybrid vehicle production in West Virginia.

AI & Data Infrastructure

  • SoftBank – Announced a $100 billion AI-focused investment, promising 100,000 U.S. jobs.
  • Amazon – Investing $20 billion in Pennsylvania and $10 billion in North Carolina for data centers.
  • AWS – Committed $11 billion to data centers in Georgia.
  • Microsoft – Spending billions on AI and cloud infrastructure across multiple U.S. states.

Consumer Goods & Food

  • Chobani – Building a $1.2 billion dairy facility in New York.
  • Bel Brands USA – Expanding cheese production with a $350 million investment.
  • Cra-Z-Art – Increasing U.S. production capacity by 50%.

These moves reflect a broader trend of reshoring, AI infrastructure growth, and supply chain localization—driven by tariffs, tech competition, and federal incentives.

That's only in Trumps first six months - doesn't sound like gloom and doom to me.

I haven't researched other companies, but Apple often announces billion-dollar investments in the U.S. every 2-3 years without following through. I wouldn't expect Apple to invest in the USA.
 
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