Catholics debate Church teaching on eternal punishment and hell

So, Pope Francis "hoping" that hell is empty is a problem?

Hope doesn't mean he knows and I have no problem with what he said.
I too would "hope," that no souls are in hell, but that may not be the case.

As St John Paul II stated when he was Pope, "God doesn't send anyone to hell,
they go there on their own." In other words, God doesn't punish souls for eternity,
but that they end up in the state of hell for rejection of God.

Once on retreat the retreat master asked the question, "what would you think
if when you died, you found out that Hitler was not in hell?" The question caused
much debate among the men on the retreat, but it made me think that only God can
judge, and his mercy is beyond our understanding.

JimR-OCDS said:

So, Pope Francis "hoping" that hell is empty is a problem?

Hope doesn't mean he knows and I have no problem with what he said.
I too would "hope," that no souls are in hell, but that may not be the case.

As St John Paul II stated when he was Pope, "God doesn't send anyone to hell,
they go there on their own." In other words, God doesn't punish souls for eternity,
but that they end up in the state of hell for rejection of God.

Once on retreat the retreat master asked the question, "what would you think
if when you died, you found out that Hitler was not in hell?" The question caused
much debate among the men on the retreat, but it made me think that only God can
judge, and his mercy is beyond our understanding.

Click to expand...

Jesus seemed to think there was a real hell. I can hope that its population is low. But I better act to see if I can minimize that population rather than just to presume it is low.

Sadly, there will probably be more souls in hell than in heaven.

I kind of have an issue with "God doesn't send anyone to hell, they choose to go." Even the reprobates may not be consciously choosing hell. Such people may not even believe it exists. I disagree that God doesn't send anyone to hell because God is the one who tells us, after we die, what our eternal destiny is, unless God has us choose after we die, which doesn't seem to be a notion that even Protestants accept. If God tells us what our eternal destiny is, we can't contest him. That's why in the end, God sends the person to hell or heaven.
(And no I don't care if it looks like Calvinism. I'm not intending to look like that but I don't think Calvinism is 100% false in everything. If God is truly outside of time like we say he is, then God has actually already decided who is going to hell or heaven based on whether or not we will choose Him. We humans are not privy to that information but God has already made that decision based on whether or not we will choose Him)

chevyontheriver said:

Jesus seemed to think there was a real hell. I can hope that its population is low. But I better act to see if I can minimize that population rather than just to presume it is low.

Click to expand...

As I understand it, hell isn't necessarily a place, but a state of being. We can create hell here on earth and it will
only get worse if we die without repentance.

Repentance means to have a change of heart. Can you imagine that their are souls so stubborn
that they have no change of heart when they die? This to me is hell.

JimR-OCDS said:

As I understand it, hell isn't necessarily a place, but a state of being. We can create hell here on earth and it will
only get worse if we die without repentance.

Click to expand...

Place. state, metaphysical thingy.

JimR-OCDS said:

Repentance means to have a change of heart. Can you imagine that their are souls so stubborn
that they have no change of heart when they die? This to me is hell.

Click to expand...

I have seen people who act like that. Totally set in their ways. I can hope they will change, but it would be a PROFOUND change of heart. I pray I'm not like that inside.

Lady Bug said:

Sadly, there will probably be more souls in hell than in heaven.

I kind of have an issue with "God doesn't send anyone to hell, they choose to go." Even the reprobates may not be consciously choosing hell. Such people may not even believe it exists. I disagree that God doesn't send anyone to hell because God is the one who tells us, after we die, what our eternal destiny is, unless God has us choose after we die, which doesn't seem to be a notion that even Protestants accept. If God tells us what our eternal destiny is, we can't contest him. That's why in the end, God sends the person to hell or heaven.
(And no I don't care if it looks like Calvinism. I'm not intending to look like that but I don't think Calvinism is 100% false in everything. If God is truly outside of time like we say he is, then God has actually already decided who is going to hell or heaven based on whether or not we will choose Him. We humans are not privy to that information but God has already made that decision based on whether or not we will choose Him)

Click to expand...

No, the Lord doesn't want ANY of His children to go to hell. He sent His ONLY son to die for all, but those that reject that gift are indeed destined for hell. He does NOT choose who will or will not go to hell. Mankind, by his own acts and denial of Christ send themselves to hell, they may not deliberately choose hell by saying in their minds, "Hey, I want to go to hell" they choose it by the actions and wrong thinking that they will not go to hell, that they are "good enough" and they do not accept and receive the gift of eternal life that Jesus died to give them. It is NOT predestination, the Lord, through his omniscience , knows who will and will not accept that free gift, but He doesn't program them to be that way, they have a free will. To be saved and eternal secure, one must totally accept Jesus' death on the cross as full atonement for their sins, receiving this gift, and ONLY receiving it assures eternal life, not repentance, although that is done after receiving the gift as we repent agreeing with the Lord that we are sinners, works will not, again, after they determine our reward in heaven.
The gift of eternal life is available to ALL that will believe and receive Jesus as their personal Lord and savior. He does NOT pick and choose.

I believe Hell exists since I've repeatedly made the claim my father appeared in my bedroom the night he died some kilometres away. We talked and argued, and I can still remember most of what we said. At the very end he turned to my left, cried out "No!", then more urgently "NO!!. Then he screamed for all he was worth, and prompty disappeared.

It was obvious something was coming for him and he was terrified to the core.

But I have an issue. At one point in the conversation he said (with something like panic) "I always was doomed! I didn't really have any choice!"

I was an atheist at the time, but I still argued back saying "That can't be right!" He replied "Oh, it's right, all right! You can see that from here!" It was obvious he could see things I couldn't. I was an atheist at the time as stated but he said "You'll become a Christian.... You'll meet a pastor. You'll think he's great, but all he'll do is to discourage you even more!"

He also said "I was WILLING!" (to act the way he did and keep doing it - that was definitely his choice).

I became Christian nearly four years later (not because of the apparition which I did my best to forget) and subsequently met the pastor in question. The better part of nine years later the pastor said to me "I owe you an apology .... You needed encouragement, but all I've done is to discourage you even more!"

I pointed out to him that he had repeated back to me the words my father used 'word for word'. He blurted out "You really did see your father that night!"

But just before the final episode with my father, he looked completely dejected. In short, the first and most terrible aspect of Hell is the realisation of what they are going to miss out on - eternity in heaven with God.

I don't think anybody chooses Hell for it's own sake - who would want to?? But they choose Hell in the sense that they reject God, and effectively tell Him they are Lords of their own life (and quite often think they can be Lords over other people's lives eg. Hitler, Stalin, Pol Pot for extreme examples).

But I still struggle with the bit abouit "... I always was doomed! I didn't really have any choice!"

Now if someone can enlighten me?

I'm going to get personal here and offer a bit of "evidence" about my father's apparition the night he died. As it turned out his body wasn't found for four days. My mother's brother, maternal uncle, was the one who turned up to tell me that he'd died.

Then he added "It's a mess. He was dead for four days before his body was found". It took a couple of minutes for the penny to drop, but I still remember counting back four nights, turning towards the bedroom where he'd appeared, and thinking to myself "Then what the hell was that the other night??"

My uncle saw the look on my face and said "Are you all right?" I gathered my wits and told him I was. Of course he thought it was the "shock" of my father's death that rattled me, whereas in actual fact it was the memory of his apparition, our conversation and the blood curdling scream just before he disappeared into eternity.

I've put a copy of his death certificate and gravestone below (like I said it's personal). If you check dates, they're four days apart. My father's sisters were responsible for that - they said they didn't want his mother (and their mother) to find out he'd been dead for four days before his body was found. To supplement their reasoning they pointed out their mother had lost her youngest son at the young age of 31 when he died from a brain embolism at work.

Incidentally that was a shock (See PS * below) - I was probably 11 or 12 at the time and I'd been camping with him, my father and a few other blokes a few weeks before if I remembered rightly. He looked perfectly healthy at the time. He was also a much nicer bloke than my father.

Due to his sisters' actions proof of the four day period is shown on the gravestone. They put the date his body was found onto the council records. He died on the 11 January 1979. That's the night he appeared. The 15th January was the date he was found, due to the smell alerting a young bloke in the flat above him.

The addresses shown are correct. He died in Nundah, and I was living in Yeronga and that's where he appeared.

Post Script (*) - I checked his younger brother's date of death on the Council website. It was 28 April 1965, so I'd have been ten going on eleven at the time. His death was a shock as I said above.