For evolutionists that were christians at one time.

11th April 2003 at 07:06 AM Arikay said this in Post #16

Well, yes, scientific theory is different from a normal theory.

A theory like "I've got a theory, it could be bunnies." Is just a plain use of the word theory, to mean an opinion.

However, a scientific theory, like the "theory of evolution is more than just an opinion.

Wikipedia helps explain it:

"Scientific Models, Theories and Laws

The terms "hypothesis", "model", "theory" and, "law" are often used incorrectly when applied to scientific ideas. (Let alone that often a hypothesis becomes a dogma or a taboo issue by the passing of the centuries and the immense inertia represented by the huge number of its desperate supporters.)

In general a hypothesis is a contention that has not (yet) been sustained or refuted, as one or more predictions made from it have not yet been tested. However, once the predictive phase has been carried out (at least to some degree) and there is some experimental evidence that supports the hypothesis then it will often begin to be referred to as a "model".

Groups of models may be combined into a "theory"; such as the theory of evolution by natural selection, or the theory of electromagnetism.

Models and theories that have withstood the test of time (and many experimental tests), and that have not been falsified by credible, repeatable experimental evidence or observation, may eventually acquire the 'status' of a "law".

It is a fundamental tenet of the scientific method that all "results" are provisional, and this must include the so-called "laws". Newton's "law of gravitation" is a famous example of a "law" that has been found to be only a partially correct (see general relativity description of gravity and the behavior of matter in motion). "

"they reaped what they sowed. "

Yet, we still use bibles with misstranslations and missing sections.

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Yep, I knew it was different for only science. Anything and everything else is just a hoax! Right? So science in it's own mind, knows everything about everything. Sets all laws and defines all words.

You see even before you used an example of the definition of theory that science uses, I knew there was gonna be some bias in it that only allows science to define the parameters of. The definition itself makes science sound so full of themselfs(we set the rules and everything else is dogma lol). Man get a grip.

Missing parts of the Bible? Did you buy into the mcabee story about the missing books? I suggest you do a little reserch on this. You'll find that they were never a part of the Bible. Some body tried to add to the bible to take away it's truthfullness. These pages were torn out and the Bible redone in the original form. This was attempted during the writting of the KJ version of the Bible. Which was written from the original greek that was translated from hebrew.

11th April 2003 at 07:26 AM Nathan Poe said this in Post #17



The Bible says He isn't

Numbers 23:19 "God is not a man, that he should lie; neither the son of man, that he should repent."

Proverbs 12:22 "Lying lips are an abomination to the Lord."

But that He is.

I Kings 22:23 "The Lord hath put a lying spirit in the mouth of all these thy prophets, and the Lord hath spoken evil concerning thee."

II Thessalonians 2:11 "And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie."

And if you believe that the Bible is the Word of God, then He must be lying at least once, which makes him capable.

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Why is that? There are things that science has been wrong about or lied about, but for science it's called adapting? Is this a new word for lying?

 
Is it okay? probably not. Is it done? All the time.

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Yes, I agree with you. But when we get to heaven there's gonna be a surprise for all those who have done this. It is a surprise that cannot be undone. When ask By God they will say: but lord we have done this and done that for you, and God will say: Depart from me you workers of inequity, for I never knew thee. God is not fooled or mocked by any man. Even those who claim to know him and claim to do his work, but have turned God's word into lies. They get their just rewards.

 

Apparantly, anyone who accepts the Bible as the be-all and end-all, and think God is only what the book says He is.

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No, not anyone. The problem is, to many people have changed God's word so much with all these translations that a lot of what's being taught is lies because it was never God's word in the first place. To change the truth makes it an untruth. According to God's word it's changing the meaning of God's word. And that exackly what these translations do. Ex: If I take Darwins book and rewrite the whole thing to what I think it should mean, and call it the new Darwin's NIV book, What does that do to his word on evolution? Is it changed? Would the original meaning of it changed? Of course it would. And that's exackly what happens to God's word with all these translation. It's everybodies elses opinions but God's. And there will be a pay day for what has been done.

They seem to think they are.

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And those who profess themselfs wise became fools.

If He does, I wouldn't consider Him worthy of worship. Would you?

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No I would not. But like I said, it's not God, It's man. Ex: When Mosses went on Mt. Sinia. The people could not wait so they made themselfs their own God. A golden calf. It goes the same way for changing God's word. People can't wait to understand it's meaning so they retranslate it to what they think it should mean. Which is not God's word. God's word is not meant to be understood all at one time.

 

Well, most Bible literalists I've met tend to have a superiority complex. "I know the Bible and you don't. I'm saved and you're not. God loves me; too bad about you."

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Yep. According to the Bible it's called pride. God's word says that pride will seperate you from God. These people think they know God but will never get close to him if they do not repent for their pridefullness attitude towards others. Not does it only seperate them from getting closer to God, but this complex has seperated you from knowing him also. Because it has given you the wrong impression of what a true believer in God really is, and what God is all about. This is why God hates a pridefull, bostfull spirit. It does no body any good.

It's an ego thing.

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Yep sure is.

Which is what makes Biblical literalists so zealous. They have built their faith on a human text like a house of cards. Yank out one card, and the whole thing comes crashing down.

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     Nope, not even close. God gave a good example of a good foundation when he spoke of the house built on sand, and the house built on a rock. He was reffering to a good foundation which is God's word. 

Do you believe that God would design such a fragile belief system? I'd like to give him more credit than that. Which is precisely what makes Biblical literalism a human invention. Only humans could screw religion up this badly.

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You hit that one right on the nose. It's not God that's the problem, It's man.

 

We have your Bible which tells us that God lies. Either it's the truth, which means God lies, or it's not, which makes the Word of God a lie, which means God lies.

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But when the human factor is put in, the lie falls on man's head, not God's.

Heads I win, tails you lose.

The evidence is that the testimony does not coincide with the fact. Since the facts can't lie, the testimony must be false.

God lies. He admitted to it. Next question.

Or are you all out of things to threaten us scoffers with?

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I have to appollogize  for those who have tried to stuff religion down your throat and tried to make themselfs look better than you. It is not the way a child of God is supposed to act. It's like Jesus said on the cross: Lord, forgive them for they know not what they do. 

11th April 2003 at 02:43 PM Cantuar said this in Post #19



If God said one thing about the Earth and universe in the Bible and arranged for the Earth and universe themselves to contradict what he said in the Bible, then it follows that he's capable of lying. That's the aspect of it that really does turn people off Christianity if they're made to accept the whole package of young-Earth creationism and biblical literalism along with the rest of Christianity - they have to accept that either the Bible or the creation itself is a lie. The people who don't have to accept the literal Genesis in order to be Christian aren't faced with this problem because for them God isn't a liar anywhere.

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But, you can only back it up with theories, which can be proven wrong at anytime.

11th April 2003 at 08:47 AM JohnR7 said this in Post #18



Yes, to bad, so sad for you, that you do not know the love that God has for you. That you have not experanced the kindness, gentleness, forgiveness, grace and mercy of God.




Leggo my eggo

(for those without kids, thats a veggie tale video.

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Johnr7, I realize sometimes that it is tempting to answer in the way that you have. But to answer things in the flesh and not the spirit only seperates you and the person your talking to from knowing God. Though sometimes people at this forum may make you mad with their response, you are an ambassador for Jesus Christ. To show his light, love, mercy, kindness, forgivness to a dark world. We have to be that light and not stumble into the dark regaurdless of how tempting it may be.

Today at 04:03 AM seebs said this in Post #26



Sure. Any day, I could find out that objects only fall towards Earth when I drop them without saying "c'mon, float, mommy loves you". That would prove a theory wrong, after all.

But in practice, theories this basic don't go away much; we may find VERY unusual exceptions, or boundary conditions - Newton's Laws are only approximations, and may fail in circumstances of quantum mechanics or relativistic velocities. But they're still useful theories.

And, hey, any day, a being of light and energy could appear to us and explain that they're very sorry about the confusion over their "God" experiment, they just wanted to see what we'd do. It doesn't seem *likely*, but hey, it's just a theory...

Some theories are true.

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Yep, and some people add their opinions whether true are not.

Yesterday at 08:46 PM Chris H said this in Post #28

Evolution does not bother me as much as other bible problems do.

Chris

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Like I have said before. The Bible is not written to be understood all at one time. For if it were, it would not be God's word. For if it were simple, than it could be truly said that it was written by men who were not inspired by God.

The word "science" is in the Bible.

Daniel 1

 1.  In the third year of the reign of Jehoiakim king of Judah came Nebuchadnezzar king of Babylon unto Jerusalem, and besieged it.
 2.  And the Lord gave Jehoiakim king of Judah into his hand, with part of the vessels of the house of God: which he carried into the land of Shinar to the house of his god; and he brought the vessels into the treasure house of his god.
 3.  And the king spake unto Ashpenaz the master of his eunuchs, that he should bring certain of the children of Israel, and of the king's seed, and of the princes;
 4.  Children in whom was no blemish, but well favoured, and skilful in all wisdom, and cunning in knowledge, and understanding science, and such as had ability in them to stand in the king's palace, and whom they might teach the learning and the tongue of the Chaldeans.

John 8

 1.  Jesus went unto the mount of Olives.
 2.  And early in the morning he came again into the temple, and all the people came unto him; and he sat down, and taught them.
 3.  And the scribes and Pharisees brought unto him a woman taken in adultery; and when they had set her in the midst,
 4.  They say unto him, Master, this woman was taken in adultery, in the very act.
 5.  Now Moses in the law commanded us, that such should be stoned: but what sayest thou?
 6.  This they said, tempting him, that they might have to accuse him. But Jesus stooped down, and with his finger wrote on the ground, as though he heard them not.
 7.  So when they continued asking him, he lifted up himself, and said unto them, He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her.
 8.  And again he stooped down, and wrote on the ground.
 9.  And they which heard it, being convicted by their own conscience, went out one by one, beginning at the eldest, even unto the last: and Jesus was left alone, and the woman standing in the midst.
 10.  When Jesus had lifted up himself, and saw none but the woman, he said unto her, Woman, where are those thine accusers? hath no man condemned thee?
 11.  She said, No man, Lord. And Jesus said unto her, Neither do I condemn thee: go, and sin no more.

In verse 7, I put some of it in green. I think this is a real good verse because it proves we are all born into sin and we are all guilty of it. There is not one who can come here and say: I have never sinned. Not even I. So for those who try to place themselfs above others because they have excepted Jesus and then look down through your nose at others. These words in verse 7 are a reminder that you can't fool God. And to act this way instead of showing compassion is not being a good example of what God wants us to be.

Acts 23

 1.  And Paul, earnestly beholding the council, said, Men and brethren, I have lived in all good conscience before God until this day.
 2.  And the high priest Ananias commanded them that stood by him to smite him on the mouth.
 3.  Then said Paul unto him, God shall smite thee, thou whited wall: for sittest thou to judge me after the law, and commandest me to be smitten contrary to the law?
Acts 24

16.  And herein do I exercise myself, to have always a conscience void of offence toward God, and toward men.

Romans 2

15.  Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another.

Romans 9

 1.  I say the truth in Christ, I lie not, my conscience also bearing me witness in the Holy Ghost,

Romans 13

 5.  Wherefore ye must needs be subject, not only for wrath, but also for conscience sake.

1 Timothy 6

 20.  O Timothy, keep that which is committed to thy trust, avoiding profane and vain babblings, and oppositions of science falsely so called:
 21.  Which some professing have erred concerning the faith. Grace be with thee. Amen.


There are many more examples. To many to list.

Conscience means: Having knowlege of what is right and wrong. In other words, a sense of morality.

Science means: Having knowledge of a certain thing. Whether it be religion or something else. In Egypt, the word science was used to discribe those who specialized in devination. Which was those who used the calling of spirits to tell the future. etc... Used to decribe an art of doing something.

These are definitions of the words as used in the Bible. Today they have different meanings. To understand the Bible more you need to understand what the words meant back then.

Now sense you know the meaning of each word, go back and reread and see how much more you understand what is being said. Refer back to the definitions while you read and see a whole knew meaning come out of the word of God.

Yesterday at 01:25 PM lucaspa said this in Post #34



The facts showed creationism to be wrong.  Before 1831.  Ikester, once again: creationism is a theory.  It was the accepted scientific theory in  the 1700s.  And it was shown to be wrong.

Evolution is backed with facts. Read Origin and look at the facts that Darwin brings to bear to support common ancestry.

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Yeah here we go again. Bring up the same old arguement. So I guess I bring up the same old answer.

You say evolution is backed with facts? Then why is it still a working theory. Fact are things proven beyond a shadow of a doubt. Theories still have problems but are works still in progress. So the fact that you bring is not really fact at all. This is because the theory has not been proven from start to finish as fact. And because something becomes a working model does not mean that one day a new law discovered just might change everything. There are laws of how things work that we are just now finding out about. And there are to many things that just don't fit into evolutions model, just as there's things that don't seem to fit in the creation model.

So to say something is fact that has not been proven in that manner of what fact is, makes it a belief. Because in order for it to become fact you and others have to believe evolution is, just like we believe God is. Either way, it's not very scientific in the terms of science.

Today at 05:21 AM Freodin said this in Post #35



You should try to learn something about church history. This IS the origin of your Bible - the book you try to justify your beliefs with. If those "persons" had not done what they did, you would read a different Bible today - and surely would defend it with equal zeal.

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  So what your saying is that this one Bible translation you speak of was the only one in existance? And when it was changed all others were destroyed? So now there is no original word of God to go by. That no one person could have hidden the one Bible, so it could be used and refered to later on? That you know for sure that they destroyed all of them? Were you there?




 

Yesterday at 01:21 PM lucaspa said this in Post #33

11th April 2003 at 04:38 AM ikester7579 said this in Post #11

I see that the questioning here all adds up to one thing. Does evolution fit in God's word

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?

No, it adds up to one thing: the evidence in God's Creation conflicts with your interpretation of the Bible.  Rather than admit that your interpretation is wrong, you say God is.

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Tell me where it says in the bible we came from apes? That god created apes and that man evolve form them? God spoke to adam and eve, I see no apes speaking today.

1. Do you think God is capable of lying?

Creationism thinks so.

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So does evolutionist. 

2. Is it okay for us to omit certain chapters and verses so that what we believe will fit?

Yes.  Whole books have been omitted.  Do you see the Gospel of Thomas in the Bible? Or the Infant Gospel of Thomas?  Both were omitted because certain chapters and verses "didn't fit"

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I see you bought into that old wifes tale of the lost books lol. There called the mcabees. And were never part of the original Bible, nor were they found in the dead sea scrolls. So unless you have better proof of the missing books than someone's opinionit's still a wife's tale. Anyone can write chapter and verses and make them sound like they came out of the Bible.

We are not talking about ommission, but different interpretation. 
3. Who on this earth has the authority to judge God and his word and by what authority is this based on? In other words, What standards does this person have to meet?

What standards did Christians use to decide that Luke 2:1 didn't mean the "whole" world? Extrabiblical evidence.

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Sounds like more wife's tales.

4. What makes that person(the judge of God) better than God?, For he would have to be better to be able to do such a thing.

Creationists judge God all the time. Creationism as a whole is telling God how He had to create.  Instead of looking in God's creation to figure out how He actually created.

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O my, evolutionists have never done this before. Creationist who change the word of God do not believe in God. 

5. Do you think that God approves of such things?

I wouldn't think God would approve of creationists. After all, they are violating the 1st commandment.

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And what would God approve of? Please tell us more!

6. And if we are able to judge God by those standards, then why did God have to send his son Jesus to die on the cross for our sins? For we would have to be better than God to judge him and his word, which would make the death of his son worthless.

Since creastionists think they are better than God, you are going to have to answer this one for us.

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Not me! And besides, not all creationist believe the same, just like evolutionist don't either. 

I wrote these questions so that you could better understand that God's word is very much entertwined in it self. Every part of God's word relies upon every other part in order for it to stand and be His word.

This does not follow.  But it is the tragic mistake of creationists.  What you are telling us is that if God didn't create the way you say He did, then God didn't create.  You can see the faulty logic. God can create just as well by the processes discovered by science, including evolution, as by your scientific theory of creationism.

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And "YOU" try and say he evolved us? At least I try to stay with what God says and prove how he said it. Instead of totally changing and ommitting to prove evolution.

And the final question: Would "you" accept being sent to Jail for murder on evidence that was based on theories and not fact?

Creationism is a scientific theory.  The facts show it to be wrong.

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Facts? The facts of science that are still working theories. Just because a model seems to work does not make it fact. Or has the definition of theory changed? O yeah, I forget. Theories are fact only when the word science is used with it.   

When you stand before God on judgement day and are asked to show your evidence that proves God lied and his word needed to be changed. I hope you have more than theories to back your evidence up.

"If sound science appears to contradict the Bible, we may be sure that it is our interpretation of the Bible that is at fault."

Too bad creationists can't admit fault.  But then, pride is a deadly sin, isn't it?

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Well, at least you got something right. Just because someone believes in creation does not put their name in the book of life. You have to believe God's word for what it is. If god had put everything in detail on what he did to create. The Bible would be so big that I very seriously think that none of us could read it in our life time. And it would have been so confusing for those in our past that knew nothing of the science we have today, that most would not have even attempted to read the Bible.