Arkansas Ten Commandments law faces legal challenge from progressive groups

Ignatius the Kiwi · Jun 14, 2025

KevinT said:
The reason that the founding fathers Incorporated, a separation of state versus religion is because of history. They did not want to have a repeat of the situation that existed in the past. Look back in history and see what happens when the state picks a particular religion that all must agree with.

KT

Would the founding Fathers have defended the existence of Satanism?

Hentenza · Jun 14, 2025

Ignatius the Kiwi said:
How would you get this accomplished or how would it be implemented? The latter is easy enough so long as the will exists. But we aren't talking about how the thing would be accomplished but if it should. Do you believe in protecting Satanism to exist?

I asked first and you did not answer. I’m shocked. Lol

One of the most fundamental rights in the US is the freedom of religion which is encapsulated in the 1st Ammendment of the US constitution. The satanists enjoy this right as long as they don’t break the law. You should understand this since NZ also has freedom of religion rights.

Ignatius the Kiwi · Jun 14, 2025

Hentenza said:
I asked first and you did not answer. I’m shocked. Lol

The question is more about the moral claim than about the implementation of the law. You oppose outlawing Satanism and support Satanists in their equal participation within society. So of course you would resist implementing laws which outlaw them.

Hentenza said:
One of the most fundamental rights in the US is the freedom of religion which us encapsulated in the 1st Ammendment of the US constitution. The satanists enjoy this right as long as they don’t break the law. You should understand this since NZ also has freedom of religion rights.

Is the freedom of religion a moral act that supersedes any Christian commitments then? Would you for instance condemn our Lord as violating religious freedom when he chased the money changers out of the Temple because of his zealousness for the Lord? Would you condemn Christians in the past who punished public blasphemy?

Hentenza · Jun 14, 2025

Ignatius the Kiwi said:
The question is more about the moral claim than about the implementation of the law. You oppose outlawing Satanism and support Satanists in their equal participation within society. So of course you would resist implementing laws which outlaw them.

Is the freedom of religion a moral act that supersedes any Christian commitments then? Would you for instance condemn our Lord as violating religious freedom when he chased the money changers out of the Temple because of his zealousness for the Lord? Would you condemn Christians in the past who punished public blasphemy?

Freedom of religion is indeed a moral and ethical act. Are you proposing to outlaw every single religion except for Christianity? I much rather follow Christ and preach the Gospel so the non believers can accept Him.

Ignatius the Kiwi · Jun 14, 2025

Hentenza said:
Freedom of religion is indeed a moral and ethical act. Are you proposing to outlaw every single religion except for Christianity? I much rather follow Christ and preach the Gospel so the non believers can accept Him.

Can you show me where Freedom of religion as a moral and ethic issue are commanded to us to adhere to in the bible or in the Christian tradition? That we as Christians are to tolerate blasphemy, heresy and false gods? Or even defend Satan himself?

Hentenza · Jun 14, 2025

Ignatius the Kiwi said:
Can you show me where Freedom of religion as a moral and ethic issue are commanded to us to adhere to in the bible or in the Christian tradition? That we as Christians are to tolerate blasphemy, heresy and false gods? Or even defend Satan himself?

First, God gives people the freedom of religion. He does not force Himself on anyone. Read Matt 19:16-23 where the young ruler chooses to walk away from Christ. Also Matt 23:37 where the children of Jerusalem refuse to gather for Him. Joshua 24:25 when Joshua gives the Israelites to choose the follow God or the gods of the Amorites.

Second, if you remove the Freedom of religion then you empower the government to choose which religion you will follow if any. However, it is the Holy Spirit who changes hearts not the government. See John 6:63. Nobody came to Jesus by the government.

I think you need to learn how to defend your faith rather than try to outlaw all others.

Ignatius the Kiwi · Jun 14, 2025

Hentenza said:
First, God gives people the freedom of religion. He does not force Himself on anyone. Read Matt 19:16-23 where the young ruler chooses to walk away from Christ. Also Matt 23:37 where the children of Jerusalem refuse to gather for Him. Joshua 24:25 when Joshua gives the Israelites to choose the follow God or the gods of the Amorites.

In the Old Testament our God ordered Joshua to kill all the inhabitants of the land so that Israel might claim it and the land be purged of the influence of foreign Gods. Nor did the alien have the right to preach his false gods to the Israelites even if he was a guest. To interpret the Old Testament or even the New Testament as encouraging this enlightenment sense of freedom of religion is desperate at best, dishonest at worst.

Hentenza said:
Second, if you remove the Freedom of religion then you empower the government to choose which religion you will follow if any. However, it is the Holy Spirit who changes hearts not the government. See John 6:63. Nobody came to Jesus by the government.

Yeah and? Governments choose and impose ways of life on their people all the time. Why is Satanism deserving of being tolerated? Why do you consider it equal to Christianity? You seem to be thinking that all religions are inherently valuable and worthy of equal respect. How have you made this determination? Why does a Christian society or group have to tolerate or abide by your American values?

Hentenza said:
I think you need to learn how to defend your faith rather than try to outlaw all others.

I think you need to demonstrate why Satanism is equal to Christianity and why it's presence in society is good.

Hentenza · Jun 14, 2025

Ignatius the Kiwi said:
In the Old Testament our God ordered Joshua to kill all the inhabitants of the land so that Israel might claim it and the land be purged of the influence of foreign Gods. Nor did the alien have the right to preach his false gods to the Israelites even if he was a guest. To interpret the Old Testament or even the New Testament as encouraging this enlightenment sense of freedom of religion is desperate at best, dishonest at worst.

And yet Joshua had to make a covenant with the people of Israel to promise to follow God. Again, God is not a tyrannical god that forces people to Him.

Ignatius the Kiwi said:
Yeah and? Governments choose and impose ways of life on their people all the time. Why is Satanism deserving of being tolerated? Why do you consider it equal to Christianity?

The US does not impose any one religion on its people. All religions have freedom to worship as they wish. You need to stop mischaracterizing my argument as me defending satanism. It is simply not true.

Ignatius the Kiwi said:
I think you need to demonstrate why Satanism is equal to Christianity and why it's presence in society is good.

I am not the judge of the validity of any one religion. I consider Christianity to be the true religion and will defend it as such.

Ignatius the Kiwi · Jun 14, 2025

Hentenza said:
And yet Joshua had to make a covenant with the people of Israel to promise to follow God. Again, God is not a tyrannical god that forces people to Him.

The law of God in the Old Testament forbids by punishment of death the following of other Gods. You did not have the freedom as an Israelite, born into the faith to depart from it which is tyrannical (per your definition). Because it denies freedom of choice and religion to the Israelite. This should make you question your enlightenment values but instead it will make you question God.

Hentenza said:
The US does not impose any one religion on its people. All religions have freedom to worship as they wish. You need to stop mischaracterizing my argument as me defending satanism. It is simply not true.

And again, you merely assert the US position. You aren't defending it's morality or why it is good to allow Satanism freedom within society.

Hentenza said:
I am not the judge of the validity of any one religion. I consider Christianity to be the true religion and will defend it as such.

You are however judging all religions and religious views as being worthy of equal participation in society. Let me ask you something, if someone were to undermine the democratic and liberal nature or the constitution of the USA should that person be subject to penalty under law? Or should he have the freedom to subvert the USA?

Hentenza · Jun 14, 2025

Ignatius the Kiwi said:
The law of God in the Old Testament forbids by punishment of death the following of other Gods. You did not have the freedom as an Israelite, born into the faith to depart from it which is tyrannical (per your definition). Because it denies freedom of choice and religion to the Israelite. This should make you question your enlightenment values but instead it will make you question God.

All that do not choose God are spiritually dead already. God is the judge not you.

Ignatius the Kiwi said:
And again, you merely assert the US position. You aren't defending its morality or why it is good to allow Satanism freedom within society.

Freedom of religion permits satanism to exist. I don’t have to argue it’s morality. In my opinion, the satanist movement is awful but I can’t just go kill them or is that what you are promoting. Should we execute every adherent of every religion that you consider immoral?

Ignatius the Kiwi said:
You are however judging all religions and religious views as being worthy of equal participation in society. Let me ask you something, if someone were to undermine the democratic and liberal nature or the constitution of the USA should that person be subject to penalty under law? Or should he have the freedom to subvert the USA?

Non sequitur

Ignatius the Kiwi · Jun 14, 2025

Hentenza said:
All that do not choose God are spiritually dead already. God is the judge not you.

Yet God commanded the Israelites to judge and implement his law. I see no argument for utter anarchy in the New Testament. Nor do I see enlightenment indifference to religion in the New Testament.

Hentenza said:
Freedom of religion permits satanism to exist. I don’t have to argue it’s morality. In my opinion, the satanist movement is awful but I can’t just go kill them or is that what you are promoting. Should we execute every adherent of every religion that you consider immoral?

We don't have to kill Satanists but neither do we have to tolerate their activism within society. Ban them from assembling publicly and arrest them. Nor does this mean we have to treat every religion as equal because every religion is not equal. Some are worthy of more respect than others and Satanism deserves no respect in society yet you are arguing for the equality of all religions in society when as a Christian you know not all religions are equal. Why do you subordinate your faith to American values?

Hentenza said:
Non sequitur

It's relevant because it demonstrates a true loyalty. You do not mind Christianity being subverted within society. But you will not tolerate America being subverted within society. So to which do you give the higher value and meaning? Obviously the latter.

Hentenza · Jun 14, 2025

Ignatius the Kiwi said:
Yet God commanded the Israelites to judge and implement his law.

And God sent His only Son to fulfill the law. He has the power to wipe clean every sin of anyone that comes to Him.

Ignatius the Kiwi said:
I see no argument for utter anarchy in the New Testament. Nor do I see enlightenment indifference to religion in the New Testament.

Freedom of religion is not anarchy.

Ignatius the Kiwi said:
We don't have to kill Satanists but neither do we have to tolerate their activism within society. Ban them from assembling publicly and arrest them.

This is anarchy. No thanks.

Ignatius the Kiwi said:
Nor does this mean we have to treat every religion as equal because every religion is not equal.

In terms of freedom of religion each one has the right to exist.

Ignatius the Kiwi said:
Some are worthy of more respect than others and Satanism deserves no respect in society yet you are arguing for the equality of all religions in society when as a Christian you know not all religions are equal. Why do you subordinate your faith to American values?

From a theological perspective Christianity is the true religion. I don’t consider the others to be equal, however, legally they have a right to exist.

Ignatius the Kiwi said:
It's relevant because it demonstrates a true loyalty. You do not mind Christianity being subverted within society. But you will not tolerate America being subverted within society. So to which do you give the higher value and meaning? Obviously the latter.

Is not relevant and a non sequitur. US laws make it a crime to subvert the government. The us no law to worship in any religion. Arguments are not comparable and therefore a fallacy.

Ignatius the Kiwi · Jun 14, 2025

Hentenza said:
And God sent His only Son to fulfill the law. He has the power to wipe clean every sin of anyone that comes to Him.

You are the one who used the Old Testament as an example of enlightenment freedom of religion. Are you abrogating yourself and saying you were wrong about the Old Testament?

Hentenza said:
Freedom of religion is not anarchy.

This is anarchy. No thanks.

Well no. It's order. It's the ordering of society along certain lines by not tolerating certain thoughts or behaviors. All societies have standards and you cannot offer a positive Christian case for why we ought tolerate Satanism in society. You can offer an American model and say we ought submit our consciences to that, but that's all.

Hentenza said:
From a theological perspective Christianity is the true religion. I don’t consider the others to be equal, however, legally they have a right to exist.

As a Christian we are not obligated to believe the latter bolded portion.

Hentenza said:
Is not relevant and a non sequitur. US laws make it a crime to subvert the government. The us no law to worship in any religion. Arguments are not comparable and therefore a fallacy.

Why is it a crime to subvert the US government? Do you consider Satanism blasphemy towards Christianity? Why is protecting the integrity of the USA more important to you?

Hentenza · Jun 14, 2025

Ignatius the Kiwi said:
You are the one who used the Old Testament as an example of enlightenment freedom of religion. Are you abrogating yourself and saying you were wrong about the Old Testament?

You are ignoring the context. Joshua had to establish a covenant with Israel. Joshua did not threaten Israel with death.

Ignatius the Kiwi said:
Well no. It's order. It's the ordering of society along certain lines by not tolerating certain thoughts or behaviors. All societies have standards and you cannot offer a positive Christian case for why we ought tolerate Satanism in society. You can offer an American model and say we ought submit our consciences to that, but that's all.

According to your anarchist beliefs. I do not share your radical beliefs.

Ignatius the Kiwi said:
As a Christian we are not obligated to believe the latter bolded portion.

Why is it a crime to subvert the US government? Do you consider Satanism blasphemy towards Christianity? Why is protecting the integrity of the USA more important to you?

I’m not tasked to protect the integrity of the US. I merely explained the law. Of course your anarchists beliefs just can’t stand it lol.

Ignatius the Kiwi · Jun 14, 2025

Hentenza said:
You are ignoring the context. Joshua had to establish a covenant with Israel. Joshua did not threaten Israel with death.

Any Israelite who preached another God would have been killed instantly by Joshua. Why are you continuing down this line when you know the Old Testament didn't have an enlightenment concept of separation of Church and State? That one of the chief problems with Israel is that they tolerated the presence of foreign religions in the land?

Hentenza said:
According to your anarchist beliefs. I do not share your radical beliefs.

I am not an anarchist.

Hentenza said:
I’m not tasked to protect the integrity of the US. I merely explained the law. Of course your anarchists beliefs just can’t stand it lol.

Let me rephrase the question. Is it right for the USA to defend itself from subversion?

Hentenza · Jun 14, 2025

Ignatius the Kiwi said:
Any Israelite who preached another God would have been killed instantly by Joshua. Why are you continuing down this line when you know the Old Testament didn't have an enlightenment concept of separation of Church and State? That one of the chief problems with Israel is that they tolerated the presence of foreign religions in the land?

Joshua asking the Israelites was to make them choose between following the Amorite’s god or following God. Once the covenant was signed anyone worshipping another god would have been put to death per Exorus 22:20. This was a choice that Joshua gave them.

Ignatius the Kiwi said:
I am not an anarchist.

You sure argue like one.

Ignatius the Kiwi said:
Let me rephrase the question. Is it right for the USA to defend itself from subversion?

Yes. There are specific laws regarding this. However, the first amendment also allows people to have their own opinions and peacefully express them.

KevinT · Jun 14, 2025

Ignatius the Kiwi said:
Would the founding Fathers have defended the existence of Satanism?

I wasn't there and can't speak for them. But I imagine that they would appeal to the common sense of every man and woman to look at Satanism and reject it. It would be an issue that the state need not get involved with. I imagine that they felt that the abuses that the various European governments (and pre-revolutionary American governments) had perpetuated were a greater danger than the risks of allowing thinking citizens to believe something wrong or crazy.

KT

RileyG · Jun 14, 2025

Ignatius the Kiwi said:
Would the founding Fathers have defended the existence of Satanism?

I doubt it.

Arkansas Ten Commandments law faces legal challenge from progressive groups

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I will fear no evil for You are with me

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I will fear no evil for You are with me

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I will fear no evil for You are with me

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I will fear no evil for You are with me

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I will fear no evil for You are with me

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I will fear no evil for You are with me

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I will fear no evil for You are with me

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I will fear no evil for You are with me

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