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Video: Protesters throw rocks at CHP officers from LA freeway bridge

durangodawood

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But that "attempt to make it sound moral framing" of the situation is obfuscating the actual issue of legality.
No it isnt. Immigration is is a case where, for the most part, personal character and whats legal are on different dimensions - unlike the other example of stealing. Its important that we dont attribute bad character to undocumented immigrants who just want to live decent moral lives like we do to criminals who steal or worse.

The issue of whether their action is legal remains perfectly comprehensible in this light.
 
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Bradskii

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So what are the better methods?
I really don't think that you're interested. Because this is a result of a problem which you aren't interested in addressing. Which is that we have a quasi military operation intent on hitting quotas, the federalisation of the National Guard, prepping Marines to hit the streets for heaven's sake and a total disregard for due process and the constitution.

If you're not interested in any that, if that isn't first and foremost in your mind when protests turn to riots and Trump literally says that protests will be met with 'very heavy force' then please don't even try to convince me that you're concerned for the rights of illegal immigrants and genuine US citizens.
 
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BPPLEE

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No it isnt. Immigration is is a case where, for the most part, personal character and whats legal are on different dimensions - unlike the other example of stealing. Its important that we dont attribute bad character to undocumented immigrants who just want to live decent moral lives like we do to criminals who steal or worse.

The issue of whether their action is legal remains perfectly comprehensible in this light.
So people can pick and choose which laws to obey?
I don't want to pay taxes, I need the money for other things, but I don't steal.
So if I don't pay taxes and they come to arrest me are you going to support me?
 
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Bradskii

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So people can pick and choose which laws to obey?
I don't want to pay taxes, I need the money for other things, but I don't steal.
So if I don't pay taxes and they come to arrest me are you going to support me?
Support you? Will they have a warrant? Will you be allowed due process? If not, then yes...I'll support you in demanding that you are treated fairly.
 
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BPPLEE

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Explain to me why it would be my responsibility to find an alternate solution. My critique of how it is done does not become weaker when I can't provide an alternative but you seem hellbent on making that connection.


Biden's government AND Obama's govt. BOTH had ICE do their work without this reaction. Trump SEVERELY under funded internal enforcement during his first term; Even the CATO institute got on him for that.

Trump for weeks has been tooting the "tough on immigration" rhetoric. Weeks...well really months at LEAST. Look at the lather he has posters on here worked up. Do you expect people when confronted with that kinda rhetoric to just roll over?

When your threats and intimidation provoke a reaction, why aren't the threats and intimidation a problem?



There have been a few studies. All numbers are 93.9-96.1%.

The characterization we ONLY see on Christian Forums is that "the BLM protests were violent" and the "the left is so violent". Demonstrably, those are both false.


I don't really understand why people make arguments like that: that 465 protests being violent is "a lot of violence". In the totality of it, that is NOT a lot of violence. IT just isn't. I'm sorry but it's not. It's pretty specific circumstances where people will argue that "4% of something is a LOT of that thing".

It's more than 0; perhaps it's more than an expected or acceptable amount, but it shouldn't be characterized as "a lot".



And yet here we are, in this VERY thread, with posters arguing against that with the left. But your post doesn't come to the defence of those on the left.



Yeah. It's weird.

Proud Boys demonstrators were frequently acting as provocateurs at BLM rallies but black people weren't being provocative at Proud Boy Rallies. And PB were doing it to discredit BLM as a peaceful legitimate movement.


No. That would be the stuff like trying to damage critical electrical infrastructure that gave them that label.
465 is a lot
 
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BPPLEE

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Support you? Will they have a warrant? Will you be allowed due process? If not, then yes...I'll support you in demanding that you are treated fairly.
Durango is arguing that entering the country illegally is not a crime like stealing and he's against enforcing immigration law.
So can I pick a crime that's not as bad as stealing and then complain when it's enforced?
 
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Bradskii

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Durango is arguing that entering the country illegally is not a crime like stealing...
I saw what he posted. You'd do well to address it directly. What I said is directly applicable to what you asked. You can address that as well, as you see fit.
 
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rjs330

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Seems like the "status quo" fallacy.

If violence increases as a result of a response to a law getting enforced, that doesn't mean the law shouldn't be enforced.



It's like saying "We can't arrest this prominent Mafia member, because the people in the neighborhood actually like him, and they'll start breaking stuff if we apprehend him"


Why is there almost never any onus placed on the left-wing protestors to not escalate things? It always seems to be a "let them do whatever they want, law enforcement stepping in is just escalating things"
Its kind of tge same mentality involving terrorists. Terrorists kill people and blow things up, but we shouldnt respond because it will cause terrorists to kill people and blow things up.
 
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rjs330

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I think if ICE were actually focused on going after mobsters you wouldn’t see quite so much pushback. It’s when people see a paramilitary force being used to apprehend a dishwasher at a restaurant or a tile guy at a Home Depot or a child at their school promotion that people start to say “hey, this seems wrong, I don’t agree with this.”
So I'll riot in the streets, burn things, throw bricks at police and damage people's property who had nothing to do with it.
 
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rjs330

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Biden's government AND Obama's govt. BOTH had ICE do their work without this reaction.
Thats because it wasnt Trump doing it. Obama had raids and sweeps just like Trump. Nobody on the left went berserk over it. We didn't have non-stop criticism by the main stream media for doing it. But Trump does it and every mainstream media outlet criticizes it, the Democrats go berserk over it. Thus is nothing more than leftists in all these places doing this because they hate Trump. They loved Obama and supported Biden so all was okay.
 
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GoldenBoy89

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Thats because it wasnt Trump doing it. Obama had raids and sweeps just like Trump. Nobody on the left went berserk over it. We didn't have non-stop criticism by the main stream media for doing it. But Trump does it and every mainstream media outlet criticizes it, the Democrats go berserk over it. Thus is nothing more than leftists in all these places doing this because they hate Trump. They loved Obama and supported Biden so all was okay.
There were protests against Obama’s deportations as well and last year there were protests at nearly every college campus over Biden’s support for Israel. It’s not true that the left loved Biden so much or he’d probably still be president. Obama was never one to escalate tensions like Trump likes to do with his constant tweeting and pushing buttons and trying to one up everyone. He keeps things chaotic because that’s the environment Trump likes to operate in. That’s why the chaos went down briefly while we had a sleepy old man at the helm. Now we’re right back where we all left off in 2020.
 
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BCP1928

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Durango is arguing that entering the country illegally is not a crime like stealing and he's against enforcing immigration law.
So can I pick a crime that's not as bad as stealing and then complain when it's enforced?
I am arguing the same thing. You, as an ex sheriffs officer should know better. Turning our argument into being "against enforcing immigration law" is basically a slanderous falsehood.
 
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BPPLEE

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I am arguing the same thing. You, as an ex sheriffs officer should know better. Turning our argument into being "against enforcing immigration law" is basically a slanderous falsehood.
He doesn't think dishwashers or tile layers who are in the US illegally should be deported.
That's against enforcing immigration law
 
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BCP1928

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He doesn't think dishwashers or tile layers who are in the US illegally should be deported.
That's against enforcing immigration law
No, he is against prioritizing them and then disappearing them after their arrest.
 
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NxNW

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Thats because it wasnt Trump doing it. Obama had raids and sweeps just like Trump. Nobody on the left went berserk over it. We didn't have non-stop criticism by the main stream media for doing it. But Trump does it and every mainstream media outlet criticizes it, the Democrats go berserk over it. Thus is nothing more than leftists in all these places doing this because they hate Trump. They loved Obama and supported Biden so all was okay.
Obama & Biden weren't deporting innocent people in defiance of the courts.
 
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wing2000

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There are exceptions to that rule... while they can't arrest people or seize property or conduct searches like a police officer can, they can help maintain order.


George HW Bush did so in 1992.

George W Bush also did so in the aftermath of 9/11.


It involves specific provisions pertaining to Title 10 (responses to terroristic activities), or invoking the Insurrection Act.


I'm actually interested if the administration will invoke the latter... By the progressives' own recent definition of what constitutes a "terrorist attack" and "insurrection", they may have boxed themselves into a corner in terms of being able to argue against the president invoking the Insurrection Act for a situation like this.


If assaulting a government building (in the name of preventing a legal process), while flying the flag of another nation, while making threats against elected officials fits the definition, then it would have to apply to this situation here.

In this instance, people are busting out windows of government buildings while flying Mexican Flags, attacking federal officers, and spray painting (and yelling) the message "Remove Trump's head!"

Replace the Mexican flags with confederate flags, replace ICE with capitol police, and replace "Remove Trump's Head" with "Hang Mike Pence", and the two sets of circumstances are starting to have some similarities.

George Bush did so at the invitation of the Governor.

I suggest you review the laws.
 
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