How does extreme sin exists along with a powerful spirit-filled ministry?

I'm not saying this necessarily applies to the person you're talking about. But as to the situation you seem to be describing, Jesus did say this:

15 “Watch out for false prophets. They come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ferocious wolves. 16 By their fruit you will recognize them. Do people pick grapes from thornbushes, or figs from thistles? 17 Likewise, every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. 18 A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, and a bad tree cannot bear good fruit. 19 Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 20 Thus, by their fruit you will recognize them. 21 “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22 Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name and in your name drive out demons and in your name perform many miracles?’ 23 Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’ Matthew 7:15-23

hopeforhappiness said:

I have been reading about TB Joshua. It got me rather perplexed. Apparently, he didn't just have 'moral failings'. Don't we all? But there were miracles and conversion and church growth (along with all those controversies that always accompany such movements). In my boring, uncharismatic, mainstream traditional church wild, bizarre and bad things don't happen. But neither does growth or passion for the things of God.
We can adopt two extreme opinions (unnecessarily IMO) - one, those sexual and other predations and coercions are exaggerated or lies by hostile actors or two, the entire ministry was counterfeit or satanic. But do we need to do this?
I understand personally the temptation that as believers saved by grace our works good or bad should not affect our salvation. Our good deeds and inner renewal should be in response to the Work of Christ, who now calls us His friends. My Orthodox friends say that the more they grow in Christ, the more they are aware of the greatness of their worldliness and especially their pride - the original sin in the Garden of Eden.
Now that church leadership has been left behind in my retirement, and I know more about the private lives of my co-leaders after their deaths, I see how flawed they actually were, how often quite concerned for their own dignity and getting their own way. (I always knew that I was such a person and that held me back from from what I was capable of doing).

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2 Cor. 11:14 states that Satan can masquerade as an angel of light. It is not surprising for a leader to produce miracles and have a dynamic ministry and yet be so morally compromised that they are disgusting.

hopeforhappiness said:

I have been reading about TB Joshua. It got me rather perplexed. Apparently, he didn't just have 'moral failings'. Don't we all? But there were miracles and conversion and church growth (along with all those controversies that always accompany such movements). In my boring, uncharismatic, mainstream traditional church wild, bizarre and bad things don't happen. But neither does growth or passion for the things of God.
We can adopt two extreme opinions (unnecessarily IMO) - one, those sexual and other predations and coercions are exaggerated or lies by hostile actors or two, the entire ministry was counterfeit or satanic. But do we need to do this?
I understand personally the temptation that as believers saved by grace our works good or bad should not affect our salvation.

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If our responses to temptation "don't matter", why be concerned at all ?

hopeforhappiness said:

Our good deeds and inner renewal should be in response to the Work of Christ, who now calls us His friends. My Orthodox friends say that the more they grow in Christ, the more they are aware of the greatness of their worldliness and especially their pride - the original sin in the Garden of Eden.
Now that church leadership has been left behind in my retirement, and I know more about the private lives of my co-leaders after their deaths, I see how flawed they actually were, how often quite concerned for their own dignity and getting their own way. (I always knew that I was such a person and that held me back from from what I was capable of doing).

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I don't know about TB Joshua but most charismatics are taught that the gifts of the spirit do not equate with the fruit of the spirit.
1 Corinthians 13:1-2 (NASB)
1 If I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, but do not have love, I have become a noisy gong or a clanging cymbal.
2 If I have the gift of prophecy, and know all mysteries and all knowledge; and if I have all faith, so as to remove mountains, but do not have love, I am nothing.

We are nothing without love but one could still move a mountain, give all money to the poor, or potentially operate in any gift. At some point though the ministry will be impacted. Hopefully, few had faith in Joshua and have lasting faith in Christ.

There is a consequence of unrepentant sin even in ministry. If the vessel remains tainted and shows no willingness to change the work will be empty and no longer endowed with the spirit. The person is aware when the presence leaves and usually responds with trickery. Oftentimes they’ll use emotionalism or subtle forms of blackmail and scare tactics to sway their audience. Sometimes they’ll fake outcomes too. There’s always tell tale signs when someone’s going off course the majority miss but you’ll see it if you’re astute.

I remember listening to a message and pausing in surprise. The pastor had glasses on his head and I couldn’t understand why. I walked up to the television and looked real close to confirm my suspicions. He was wearing shades at the pulpit while indoors. And no one was bothered by it. There was a label on the glasses referencing the designer and he kept talking like nothing was wrong and he could see himself on camera while streaming and didn’t remove them. I stopped watching and tuned in for the second portion of the message and he’s doing it again while wearing a different outfit.

I’ve made an assessment spiritually and I’m confirming my suspicions at this point and clicked on a video on a third occasion. He made an interesting comment about his wife. They were visiting an area for ministry and a couple wanted to host them but he was upset and wanted to stay in a 5 star hotel. He only relented when the couple invited over a room of important people who were wealthy and wanted to meet him.

I share this example because I knew something was off with the glasses and sensed it was mammon and the other videos confirmed the same. Although he appears to speak as he did the spirit is different and I discerned it. The gifts and callings of God are irrevocable but the anointing is another matter and that’s what departs when you go awry. The altar must be holy and when it isn’t the devil comes in. You can stand up and give a message and the Lord isn’t in it. That’s why we must be discerning and test the spirit as we’re told.

~bella

hopeforhappiness said:

That's what I am driving at, I suppose. It IS possible for a person, even a prophet or apostle, to exercise the gifts of the spirit but with little fruit. There is a danger imo, (while others clearly seem to disagree) in labelling the whole ministry as satanic because it's basically carnality at work.
I know this from 30 years in co-leadership. A leader incredibly thin-skinned, had to be in charge, verbally controlling. Quite immature emotionally. His son called his Christianity his "hobby". BUT, the church benefitted from his years of preaching and faithfulness.

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Every minister has sin. The word of God too, never returns void. So we have some carnality and some Spirit within everyone. How far can it go into the flesh? Only God can answer that. Certainly the person will not be as accomplished but they may still have some success. Jude pretty much sums things up in how to treat those in the flesh.

Jude 22-23, "Be merciful to those who doubt; save others by snatching them from the fire; to others show mercy, mixed with fear—hating even the clothing stained by corrupted flesh.

We should remember that everyone has different obstacles also to overcome as well. So our judgment can be tainted by our own life experience. Many overcome far more especially those from broken and dysfunctional families. Other issues from disabilities to substance abuse may take years to overcome, yet God is gracious and still may use someone with imperfections. So I am not sure how quick to judge we should be?

The other disciples never really had any discernment about Judas. Believers today have the word of God, but we do not fully know the personal lives of others. I myself try to focus on good doctrine and a true move of the Holy Spirit more than the minister. The love of money though is pretty easy to spot in preaching. Immorality too seems to eventually catch up with those who offend in this area, though for some it can take years to uncover. The biggest obstacle in many churches and ministers is religion. Jesus and Paul seemed to battled that more than anything else in their time. I think it is no different now.

hopeforhappiness said:

Some really good stuff here, recognising the way things are, I would say everywhere. And this is why Jesus died, so that in observed fact, we know that neither our salvation nor our ministry is effective through our own righteousness.
But of course this is clear from low-level ministry say leadership of a local church. Paul talks of being grateful for the word being preached even from bad motives. But what of the T B Joshua-type extreme phenomenon? Do we need to actually discredit the entire work and warn people who may have received Good Things that those are curses that will lead to perdition?

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Let's say that someone did receive a healing or blessing or even a truth from the bible from T.B. Joshua. God does not punish the innocent. Their own punishment would be that they are going to have to realign their own beliefs and question the truth of T.B. Joshua ministry. However, anything they might have received that is "good," still could have come from God. So they are still blessings if they accept them that way.

I can't say exactly how far T.B. Joshua was off so I will use the extreme example of a witch doctor first.
Such a witch is clearly in the Satanic realm. But what if a weak Christian or unbeliever received a healing from them? I would say it is a curse on them. Perhaps later their body would have to pay for this transgression. However, if they repent of using the witch doctor, God too would forgive any future consequences and the healing could remain a blessing. It would seem Joshua did everything in the name of God, but I suppose their could be potential for a curse to be on something they received. The solution then is the same ask for God's mercy, accept what was received to the glory of God and reject any past, present or future curse that might arise from the teaching or laying on of hands, etc. The main thing is to move on in Jesus, focus on Him and give Him the glory for all that is good.

The only scripture that I can think that would apply is how some at judgment will say they prophesied and cast out demons yet they are rejected in heaven. I don't recall anywhere in scripture that the recipients of those who had demons cast out by those rejected to heaven are to suffer because they were fooled by some religious people that were actually rejected by God. So I think that is good news. Blessings are from God and Jesus became the curse for us.