How can God be ok with most people going to hell?

setst777 said:

The time of grace is now, before you die. After death the unredeemed will await the Resurrection onto Judgment.

John 5:28-29 (WEB) 28 Don’t marvel at this, for the hour comes in which all who are in the tombs will hear his voice, 29 and will come out; those who have done good, to the resurrection of life; and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of judgment.

Acts 24:14 I believe all things which are in the law and in the prophets; 15 having hope toward God, which these also themselves look for, that there will be a resurrection of the dead, both of the just and unjust.

Daniel 12:2 (WEB) 2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting (‘ō-w-lām) life, and some to shame and everlasting (‘ō-w-lām) contempt.

Matthew 25:45-46 (WEB) 45 “Then he will answer them, saying, ‘Most certainly I tell you, because you didn’t do it to one of the least of these, you didn’t do it to me.’ 46 These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”

At the judgment the unredeemed will be judged according to their works.

Hebrews 9:27 It is appointed unto men once to die, but after that the judgment

Romans 2:5-11 ... 5 But according to your hardness and unrepentant heart you are storing wrath for yourself in the day of wrath, revelation, and the righteous judgment of God; 6 who “will pay back to everyone according to their works:” [Psalm 62:12; Proverbs 24:12] 7 to those who by perseverance in well-doing seek for glory, honor, and incorruptibility, eternal life; 8 but to those who are self-seeking, and don’t obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, will be wrath, indignation, 9 oppression, and anguish on every soul of man who does evil, 10 But glory, honor, and peace go to every one doing good – first to the Jew and also to the Greek. 11 For God shows no partiality.

Therefore, there are degrees of punishment or torment depending on the deeds of the unredeemed, according to their works, while they lived on earth.

Hebrews 10:29 29 How much worse punishment do you think he will be judged worthy

Jude 1:13 (NIV) 13 They are wild waves of the sea, foaming up their shame; wandering stars, for whom blackest darkness has been reserved forever.

God will indeed execute his wrath upon the unredeemed, for God is also a God of judgment, wrath, and vengeance.

Ephesians 2:3 (WEB) We also all once lived among them in the lusts of our flesh, doing the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, even as the rest.

Romans 1:18 (WEB) For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men who suppress the truth in unrighteousness

Romans 2:5 (WEB) But according to your hardness and unrepentant heart you are treasuring up for yourself wrath in the day of wrath, revelation, and of the righteous judgment of God

Interesting and amazing that you quote my post with the 17 Passages I gave describing God's wrath and the "Place" that the unredeemed are cast into; yet, you reject them.

Ephesians 5:6 (WEB) Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of these things the wrath of God comes on the children of disobedience.

God is not only Love, but God is also a Consuming Fire and of Wrath and Vengeance, according to the Scriptures.

Hebrews 12:28-29 (WEB) 28 Therefore, receiving a Kingdom that can’t be shaken, let’s have grace, through which we serve God acceptably, with reverence and awe, 29 for our God is a consuming fire.

Hebrews 10:28-31 (WEB) 28 A man who disregards Moses’ law dies without compassion on the word of two or three witnesses. 29 How much worse punishment do you think he will be judged worthy of who has trodden underfoot the Son of God, and has counted the blood of the covenant with which he was sanctified an unholy thing, and has insulted the Spirit of grace? 30 For we know him who said, “Vengeance belongs to me. I will repay,” says the Lord. Again, “The Lord will judge his people.” 31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

You write:
Matt 25:46 these go away into eternal punishment,( Greek aionios kolasis) this is mistranslated in English , aionios is of the age or age enduring, and kolasis is a gardening term used to prune trees or vines to make them produce more fruit, the bad is cut off so as to allow more fruit. No eternal punishment.

setst777 RE:
The actual Greek meaning of "kolasin" is "punishment."

Cognate: 2851 kólasis (from kolaphos, "a buffeting, a blow") – properly, punishment that "fits" (matches) the one punished (R. Trench); torment from living in the dread of upcoming judgment from shirking one's duty (cf. WS at 1 Jn 4:18)

The actual Greek meaning of "aiónios" is "perpetual."

"Perpetual" is everlasting unless the context states a time limit to "perpetual." No passage of Scripture gives a time limit to perpetual punishment of the unredeemed resurrected souls, just as there is no limit to "perpetual" life (Eternal Life) for the redeemed souls who are resurrected.

Therefore, perpetual goes on without end, which means: forever, everlasting, or eternal, because no limit of time is given.

None of your human wisdom can change what God's Word reveals, even though you may deceive many who are naive, or who have itching ears.

Ephesians 5:6 (WEB) Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of these things the wrath of God comes on the children of disobedience.

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Sorry but your Greek definitions are based on your view of God. Kolasis is derived from the arborist term to cut off or to lop off to make better not to punish. The only reason to think its used as punishment id if you see God as the pagan gods who do use corporal punishment on their subjects but not Yahweh his punishment or discipline is unto correction.
Your definition for aonios as perpetual is again off. Aionios is the adjective form of Aion, Which we translate as eon or age, it has a beginning and an end. Aionios, is used as a modifier if it modifies life in Jesus ,aionios life in Jesus , it never ends because Jesus never ends not because aionios means unending or perpetual. When modifying punishment , it has an end because the punishment has an end.
Lamentations 3:31-33 For the Lord will no reject us forever, though he causes grief, he then has compassion on us according to the abundance of his loyal kindness, for he is not predisposed to afflict or grieve.






























ko

Jeff Saunders said:

Sorry but your Greek definitions are based on your view of God. Kolasis is derived from the arborist term to cut off or to lop off to make better not to punish. The only reason to think its used as punishment id if you see God as the pagan gods who do use corporal punishment on their subjects but not Yahweh his punishment or discipline is unto correction.
Your definition for aonios as perpetual is again off. Aionios is the adjective form of Aion, Which we translate as eon or age, it has a beginning and an end. Aionios, is used as a modifier if it modifies life in Jesus ,aionios life in Jesus , it never ends because Jesus never ends not because aionios means unending or perpetual. When modifying punishment , it has an end because the punishment has an end.
Lamentations 3:31-33 For the Lord will no reject us forever, though he causes grief, he then has compassion on us according to the abundance of his loyal kindness, for he is not predisposed to afflict or grieve.

ko

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So, what I am understanding from you is that the NT Greek scholars are wrong, but you are right?

Regarding kolasis:

The Koine Greek word kolasis (κόλασις) is not directly derived from an arborist term meaning "to cut off" or "to lop off." Instead, kolasis comes from the verb kolazō (κολάζω), which means "to punish" or "to correct". The word kolasis itself carries meanings related to chastisement, correction, or punishment.

There is no evidence that kolasis was used in the ancient Septuagint or Apocryphal writings (long before the NT) to mean pruning, cutting off, or lopping off. The verb kolazō (κολάζω) may have originally carried a sense of restraining or curbing, but its usage in biblical and apocryphal texts consistently refers to punishment or correction, rather than horticultural pruning.

In addition, some scholars have noted that kolazō may have had an earlier meaning related to maiming or cutting off, as seen in classical Greek sources like Homer and Herodotus, but this had to do with punishment. Also, the Greek author Theophrastus (4th–3rd century BC) used these terms to describe a method of checking the growth of almond trees, but that was not its original use or meaning.

But, beyond these rare incidences, there is no evidence that kolasis (κόλασις) was used to mean, of itself, lopping or cutting off in the Ancient Septuagint, Apocryphal, New Testament writings, or in any other known ancient Greek writings.

In the New Testament, the only way kolasis is ever used is to refer to restraining or punishing. For instance, the verb form kolazō also appears in n Acts 4:21, where it refers to restraining or punishing the apostles. Additionally, 2 Peter 2:9 uses the verb to describe how the Lord knows how to punish the unrighteous.

In addition, in 1 John 4:18, "kolasis"is also translated as "punishment" or "torment." The passage states that perfect love casts out fear, because fear involves kolasis. This implies a sense of penalty or suffering associated with judgment.

The Koine Greek word commonly used for "to cut off" or "to lop off" is ἐκκόπτω (ekkoptō). This verb means "to cut down, remove, or sever" and is used in several New Testament passages:

• Matthew 3:10 – "The axe is laid to the root of the trees; therefore every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire."
• Matthew 5:30 – "If your right hand causes you to sin, cut it off and throw it away."
• Matthew 7:19 – "Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire."
• Luke 3:9 – "Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire."
• Luke 13:7, 9 – "Cut it down! Why should it use up the soil?"
• Romans 11:22, 24 – "Branches were cut off so that you might be grafted in."

Another Greek verb, of the same root as "ekkoptō" used for "cut off" is ἀποκόπτω (apokoptō), which means "to amputate or sever":

• Mark 9:43, 45 – "If your hand or foot causes you to sin, cut it off."
• John 18:10, 26 – "Peter cut off the ear of the high priest’s servant."
• Acts 27:32 – "The soldiers cut off the ropes of the boat."
• Galatians 5:12 – "I wish those who unsettle you would cut themselves off."

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Regarding "aiónios."

Anionios is derived from aiṓn (αἰών), which means age, eon, or an indefinite period of time. The term aiónios can refer to something without beginning or end, something lasting for an age, or something enduring indefinitely.

Grammatically, the structure of "Matthew 25:45-46" shows a parallelism, meaning that the duration of punishment is intended to be understood in the same way as the duration of life.

Contextually, "Matthew 25:45-46" contrasts the fate of the righteous and the wicked, reinforcing the idea that both outcomes -- life and punishment -- are of the same duration.

The Broader Context of Scripture reinforces the fact that -- regarding punishment of the unredeemed who are resurrected to be judged -- there is no limit to the duration of eternal punishment, just as there is no duration to eternal life.

Both the redeemed and unredeemed are equally resurrected to {{{"a Place"}}} reserved for them. Therefore, that is why Eternal Life and Eternal Punishment are both "Eternal."

John 5:28-29 (WEB) 28 Don’t marvel at this, for the hour comes in which all who are in the tombs will hear his voice, 29 and will come out; those who have done good, to the resurrection of life; and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of judgment.

Acts 24:14 I believe all things which are in the law and in the prophets; 15 having hope toward God, which these also themselves look for, that there will be a resurrection of the dead, both of the just and unjust.

Matthew 25:45-46 (WEB) 45 “Then he will answer them, saying, ‘Most certainly I tell you, because you didn’t do it to one of the least of these, you didn’t do it to me.’ 46 These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”

Daniel 12:2 (WEB) 2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting (‘ō-w-lām) life, and some to shame and everlasting (‘ō-w-lām) contempt.

The Hebrew word "‘ōwlām" corresponds to the Greek word "aiónios;" in that, they both mean "eternal" when referring to the resurrection of the redeemed and unredeemed.

Notice that, just as in "Matthew 25:45-46," we see also in "Daniel 12:2" a parallelism is in view, meaning that the duration of punishment is intended to be understood in the same way as the duration of life.

The Hebrew word "‘ōwlām" is used just like the Greek word "aiónios; in that, if no time limit is given in the context, then it means: "everlasting" or "eternal."

In fact, "‘ōwlām," in all its tense forms, almost always means "eternal" or "everlasting" in the Old Testament. Only in rare instances does it refer to something else (three times), or is limited by the context to refer to a time not to exceed a certain point (ten times).

Only 10 times is ‘ōwlām translated as “ancient times” or “of old” out of 483 times it is used in the OT; that is because the context restricts the use of ‘ōwlām to a time frame in all of those 10 Passages. The three other Passages are referring to something else, such as a direction. If unrestricted by the context, ‘ōwlām means: continual, perpetual, or unchanging in at least 470 Passages, just as "aiónios" in the NT means eternal or everlasting.

Once again, a time limit must be present in the context to restrict the limit of time for the word ‘ōwlām just as for "aiónios." There is no time limit for either word when referring to eternal punishment/contempt or eternal life, and that is why both words mean eternal or everlasting in those Passages.

I believe that I did not explain myself well. My saying that kolasis was a horticulture word, does not mean the word was used that way in scripture, but that it is derived from the horticultural world used to lop off or cut off what was holding the plant back. This is how the early church before Augustine say the use, punishment was unto correction not corporal, so aionios kolasis was corrective punishment of the age .
Your statement that the duration of the punishment is the same as the duration of life is not correct and I will show you your mistake; aionios is the adjective of aion which is the Greek word we get eon or age from, it has a beginning and and end, aionios modifies the noun.
So in the sentence " A tall man was standing in front of a tall skyscraper" Is that man as tall as a skyscraper ? Tall is used to describe two things both being tall but both not being the same height,
Aionios life is the life of the age we become part of Gods family and because God never ends neither does the life, but aionios kolasis is punishment of the age, this is for and unto correction, lopping off or cutting off all that is not of God till it leads to reconciliation (2 Cor 5:19) " in Christ God was reconciling the world to himself, not counting peoples trespasses against them, and he has given us the message of reconciliation."
AS for your understanding of aionios and the idea that it is eternal, that is post Augustine thinking. Greek has a word for eternal, aidios, this is Greek for eternal and if God wanted for his scripture to mean that is the word that would be used. This is why if you look at many English translations aion or aionios are translated as world or end of the world, instead of age or pertaining to the age which makes more sense.
For example in Matthew aion is used 9 times, 6 times KJV translates aion as world and 1 time as end of the world. The Greek used for world is cosmos and it is used 7 times in Matthew . If aion means eternal or forever why did Matthew use aion for world 9 times for world and 7 times he used cosmos for world, that makes no since if aion means eternal. Augustine used a bad Latin translation that mistranslated aion and aionios as eternal, because he took control and used his control of power to stomp out his opponents, so much so his definitions have controlled the Church for 1500 years and the books they have produced. Now with the internet we can research the early church fathers and what they wrote and now we can see the error of the Church for the last 1500 years.
Aion is like olam in Hebrew, its a time that no one knows the end, its used for the life of a slave, for the time Jonah was in the fish, Sodom and Gomorrah burn with olam fire till it goes out. They had no problem with something lasting forever till its not.
Yes in out English modern Bibles we read eternal but that is not from the original Greek and fortunately we have the resources to find out what was originally written and even some Modern Bibles that are correcting the mistranslations.

Jeff Saunders said:

I believe that I did not explain myself well. My saying that kolasis was a horticulture word, does not mean the word was used that way in scripture, but that it is derived from the horticultural world used to lop off or cut off what was holding the plant back.

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The Koine Greek word “kolasis” (κόλασις) is definitely not directly derived from an arborist term meaning "to cut off" or "to lop off." Instead, kolasis comes from the verb kolazō (κολάζω), which means "to punish" or "to correct". The word kolasis itself carries meanings related to chastisement, correction, and/or punishment.

Theophrastus’ use of “kolasis” to describe a method of checking the growth of almond trees is an exception rather than the rule, and he is not the earliest example of the use of “kolasis.”

The early church never used the word “kolasis” or its tense forms to ever mean “lopping” or “cutting off.”

The words in the Greek Septuagint and the New Testament for “lopping” or “cutting off” are: “ekkoptō” (ἐκκόπτω) and “apokoptō” ἀποκόπτω.

The historical use of these two words, “apokoptō” and “ekkoptō” is derived from horticulture, as they relate to cutting, pruning, or removing parts of plants.

Jeff Saunders said:

This is how the early church before Augustine say the use, punishment was unto correction not corporal, so aionios kolasis was corrective punishment of the age .

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Regarding the earlier meaning of “kolasis” being that of discipline for correction, that is correct; however, the time or duration for “kolasis” is not implied.

For instance, In the 1st century, some criminals of Rome were thrown into a dungeon for discipline until they were able to pay every last penny to be freed, which is never, if they do not have funds. So, in this case, the discipline for some was jail-time forever.

Matthew 5:26; Luke 12:57-59 Most assuredly, you shall by no means get out of there until you have paid the last penny.

Crucifixion on a cross was the Roman discipline for insurrection and other high crimes; which no person ever survives, so it is unchanging. The death of the one being disciplined cannot be undone, its forever.

Therefore, when referring to God’s divine retribution or judgement on the unredeemed, kolasis likewise takes on an eternal nature for punitive discipline as seen within the context; in that, No Time of Duration is Given.

In the final analysis, the context in which “kolasis” is used, determines the duration of the discipline, whether it be for a short time, a time-indefinite, or forever.

Divine eternal punitive discipline may explain why the unredeemed will weep and gnash their teeth in “that place” of “Outer Darkness” the unredeemed are cast into. There is no time limit in which this punishment is complete.

This punishment reveals an unending discipline - a reflection on the part of the unrepentant for their sinful lives on earth, including their rejection of God’s grace.

Note: Scripture never teaches us that, after the Judgment, there is grace offered to those who are cast into Outer Darkness.

Jeff Saunders said:

Your statement that the duration of the punishment is the same as the duration of life is not correct and I will show you your mistake; aionios is the adjective of aion which is the Greek word we get eon or age from, it has a beginning and and end, aionios modifies the noun.

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Aionios is the adjective form for both Eternal Life and Eternal Punishment. Both are “adjective accusative singular.” So you made no point to prove your position here.

Jeff Saunders said:

So in the sentence " A tall man was standing in front of a tall skyscraper" Is that man as tall as a skyscraper ? Tall is used to describe two things both being tall but both not being the same height,

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Your comparison is false; in that, it’s like saying “A tall man is eternal punishment.” Of course that is false; in that, no person is punishment; rather, he receives punishment or resides in a place of punishment.

Jeff Saunders said:

Aionios life is the life of the age we become part of Gods family and because God never ends neither does the life, but aionios kolasis is punishment of the age, this is for and unto correction, lopping off or cutting off all that is not of God till it leads to reconciliation (2 Cor 5:19) " in Christ God was reconciling the world to himself, not counting peoples trespasses against them, and he has given us the message of reconciliation."

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The message of reconciliation is the Gospel, so that, whosoever believes is reconciled to God.

Romans 5:1-2 Being therefore justified by faith, we have peace [reconciliation] with God through our Lord Jesus Christ; 2 through whom we also have our access by faith into this grace in which we stand.

While some will believe and be reconciled to God, many will refuse the Gospel and remain under God’s wrath.

John 3:36 (WEB) One who believes in the Son has eternal life, but one who disobeys the Son won’t see life, but the wrath of God remains on him.

Ephesians 5:6 (WEB) Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of these things the wrath of God comes on the children of disobedience.

Jeff Saunders said:

AS for your understanding of aionios and the idea that it is eternal, that is post Augustine thinking. Greek has a word for eternal, aidios, this is Greek for eternal and if God wanted for his scripture to mean that is the word that would be used. This is why if you look at many English translations aion or aionios are translated as world or end of the world, instead of age or pertaining to the age which makes more sense.

Click to expand...

True, there will be an end to the world or this age, as Scripture states. The word “end” shows the limit in the duration of time for the world or this age. That is why context is so important.

There is no time limit in the context of Scripture for "eternal punishment" or "eternal life" after the resurrection of the just and the unjust.

Note: Scripture never teaches us that, after the Judgment, there is grace offered to those who are cast into Outer Darkness.

Jeff Saunders said:

Aion is like olam in Hebrew, its a time that no one knows the end, its used for the life of a slave, for the time Jonah was in the fish, Sodom and Gomorrah burn with olam fire till it goes out. They had no problem with something lasting forever till its not.

Click to expand...

The context of Scripture explains to us that Jonah did not remain in the fish forever. As well, we know from Scripture that the earthly judgment of Sodom and Gomorrah happened at a specific point in history.

There is no time limit in the context of Scripture for "eternal punishment" or "eternal life" after the resurrection of the just and the unjust.

Note: Scripture never teaches us that, after the Judgment, there is grace offered after the Judgment to those who are cast into Outer Darkness.

Jeff Saunders said:

Yes in out English modern Bibles we read eternal but that is not from the original Greek and fortunately we have the resources to find out what was originally written and even some Modern Bibles that are correcting the mistranslations.

Click to expand...

People may not know, but God knows. The Bible is God’s Word, including the Old Testament. These are not the "words of men" but are the "words of God." So, you should be careful to read the context of Scripture instead of coming up with your own reasoning.

Notice that, just as in "Matthew 25:45-46," we see also in "Daniel 12:2" a parallelism is in view, meaning that the duration of punishment is intended to be understood in the same way as the duration of life. The same grammar is used for both Eternal Punishment and Eternal Life.

The Hebrew word "‘ōwlām" is used just like the Greek word "aiónios; in that, if no time limit is given in the context, then it means: "forever."

Note: Scripture never teaches us that, after the Judgment, there is grace offered to those who are cast into Outer Darkness.

setst777 said:

The Koine Greek word “kolasis” (κόλασις) is definitely not directly derived from an arborist term meaning "to cut off" or "to lop off." Instead, kolasis comes from the verb kolazō (κολάζω), which means "to punish" or "to correct". The word kolasis itself carries meanings related to chastisement, correction, and/or punishment.

Theophrastus’ use of “kolasis” to describe a method of checking the growth of almond trees is an exception rather than the rule, and he is not the earliest example of the use of “kolasis.”

The early church never used the word “kolasis” or its tense forms to ever mean “lopping” or “cutting off.”

The words in the Greek Septuagint and the New Testament for “lopping” or “cutting off” are: “ekkoptō” (ἐκκόπτω) and “apokoptō” ἀποκόπτω.

The historical use of these two words, “apokoptō” and “ekkoptō” is derived from horticulture, as they relate to cutting, pruning, or removing parts of plants.



Regarding the earlier meaning of “kolasis” being that of discipline for correction, that is correct; however, the time or duration for “kolasis” is not implied.

For instance, In the 1st century, some criminals of Rome were thrown into a dungeon for discipline until they were able to pay every last penny to be freed, which is never, if they do not have funds. So, in this case, the discipline for some was jail-time forever.

Matthew 5:26; Luke 12:57-59 Most assuredly, you shall by no means get out of there until you have paid the last penny.

Crucifixion on a cross was the Roman discipline for insurrection and other high crimes; which no person ever survives, so it is unchanging. The death of the one being disciplined cannot be undone, its forever.

Therefore, when referring to God’s divine retribution or judgement on the unredeemed, kolasis likewise takes on an eternal nature for punitive discipline as seen within the context; in that, No Time of Duration is Given.

In the final analysis, the context in which “kolasis” is used, determines the duration of the discipline, whether it be for a short time, a time-indefinite, or forever.

Divine eternal punitive discipline may explain why the unredeemed will weep and gnash their teeth in “that place” of “Outer Darkness” the unredeemed are cast into. There is no time limit in which this punishment is complete.

This punishment reveals an unending discipline - a reflection on the part of the unrepentant for their sinful lives on earth, including their rejection of God’s grace.

Note: Scripture never teaches us that, after the Judgment, there is grace offered to those who are cast into Outer Darkness.



Aionios is the adjective form for both Eternal Life and Eternal Punishment. Both are “adjective accusative singular.” So you made no point to prove your position here.



Your comparison is false; in that, it’s like saying “A tall man is eternal punishment.” Of course that is false; in that, no person is punishment; rather, he receives punishment or resides in a place of punishment.



The message of reconciliation is the Gospel, so that, whosoever believes is reconciled to God.

Romans 5:1-2 Being therefore justified by faith, we have peace [reconciliation] with God through our Lord Jesus Christ; 2 through whom we also have our access by faith into this grace in which we stand.

While some will believe and be reconciled to God, many will refuse the Gospel and remain under God’s wrath.

John 3:36 (WEB) One who believes in the Son has eternal life, but one who disobeys the Son won’t see life, but the wrath of God remains on him.

Ephesians 5:6 (WEB) Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of these things the wrath of God comes on the children of disobedience.



True, there will be an end to the world or this age, as Scripture states. The word “end” shows the limit in the duration of time for the world or this age. That is why context is so important.

There is no time limit in the context of Scripture for "eternal punishment" or "eternal life" after the resurrection of the just and the unjust.

Note: Scripture never teaches us that, after the Judgment, there is grace offered to those who are cast into Outer Darkness.



The context of Scripture explains to us that Jonah did not remain in the fish forever. As well, we know from Scripture that the earthly judgment of Sodom and Gomorrah happened at a specific point in history.

There is no time limit in the context of Scripture for "eternal punishment" or "eternal life" after the resurrection of the just and the unjust.

Note: Scripture never teaches us that, after the Judgment, there is grace offered after the Judgment to those who are cast into Outer Darkness.



People may not know, but God knows. The Bible is God’s Word, including the Old Testament. These are not the "words of men" but are the "words of God." So, you should be careful to read the context of Scripture instead of coming up with your own reasoning.

Notice that, just as in "Matthew 25:45-46," we see also in "Daniel 12:2" a parallelism is in view, meaning that the duration of punishment is intended to be understood in the same way as the duration of life. The same grammar is used for both Eternal Punishment and Eternal Life.

The Hebrew word "‘ōwlām" is used just like the Greek word "aiónios; in that, if no time limit is given in the context, then it means: "forever."

Note: Scripture never teaches us that, after the Judgment, there is grace offered to those who are cast into Outer Darkness.

Click to expand...

We will just have to agree to disagree.
Kolasis Aionios means the punishment of the age. Kolasis has nothing with the duration it is only what kind of punishment is taking place.
Aionios is the duration and that is pertaining to the age or age enduring, God works in ages each has a beginning and and end till all the ages are complete, after that God may have millions of ages or none we do not know, God is not bound to tell us all he is going to do.
You have chosen to look at God as creating people with wills stronger than his own and the creates them knowing that he will burn most for all eternity.
I choose to see God as a loving Father who would do anything to save his beloved creation, even if it meant his becoming human and dying on a cross to redeem all his creation, not just some.
Its two ways to look at God , I have made my choice and will one day stand before him and give an account, I want to have the heart of Jesus that says to the very people who are killing him "Father forgive them for they know not what they do" not the heart of James and John who wanted God to send lightning down and burn up those who disrespected Jesus, They did not know Jesus's heart and sadly I see much of the Church has followed the burn them with fire attitude.

Jeff Saunders said:

We will just have to agree to disagree.
Kolasis Aionios means the punishment of the age. Kolasis has nothing with the duration it is only what kind of punishment is taking place.
Aionios is the duration and that is pertaining to the age or age enduring, God works in ages each has a beginning and and end till all the ages are complete, after that God may have millions of ages or none we do not know, God is not bound to tell us all he is going to do.
You have chosen to look at God as creating people with wills stronger than his own and the creates them knowing that he will burn most for all eternity.
I choose to see God as a loving Father who would do anything to save his beloved creation, even if it meant his becoming human and dying on a cross to redeem all his creation, not just some.
Its two ways to look at God , I have made my choice and will one day stand before him and give an account, I want to have the heart of Jesus that says to the very people who are killing him "Father forgive them for they know not what they do" not the heart of James and John who wanted God to send lightning down and burn up those who disrespected Jesus, They did not know Jesus's heart and sadly I see much of the Church has followed the burn them with fire attitude.

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God is not only Love, but God is a Consuming Fire. You can't have one without the other.

God is a Father only to those who believe. God is NOT the Father of the unbelievers.

Galatians 3:26 … For you are all children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.

1 John 3:6, 8 Whoever remains in him doesn’t practice sin. Whoever lives in sin hasn’t seen or known him… 8 Whoever continues in sin is of the devil.

In the final analysis, for my part, I only believe what the Scriptures state. What I believe has nothing to do with church history, pagan history, or what this or that person says.

I will not presume to add to God's Word my own feelings about how God does what he does. After death, there will be the judgment.

The redeemed will have eternal life, and the unredeemed will have eternal punishment - Parallel destinies. That is God's Word.

Matthew 25:45-46 (WEB)
46 These will go away into eternal [adjective, accusative feminine singular] punishment, but the righteous into eternal [adjective, accusative feminine singular] life.”

Daniel 12:2 (WEB) 2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting (‘ō-w-lām: noun, masculine, singular) life, and some to shame and everlasting (‘ō-w-lām: noun, masculine, singular) contempt.

In both Passages above, eternal life and eternal punishment/contempt both have identical grammatical structure that parallel each other.

Therefore, if Life is eternal then so is Punishment eternal. That is how these Passages are meant to be understood. And God does not lie.

After the judgment, the unredeemed are cast into Outer Darkness, which is a place outside the Kingdom of God. And this Place is just as eternal as God's Kingdom.

“Revelation 14:9-14” and “Revelation 20:10” use similar language; in that, the unredeemed will be cast into the same "Place", having no rest “day or night” “forever and ever” with “the beast” and the “false prophet” in the lake of fire.

There is no indication or instruction given within Scripture that those in the lake of fire will get a second chance of grace later on; rather. . .

1. Just as life is eternal, so is punishment eternal - identical grammar used for each.
2. They are parallel places with eternal parallel consequences.

God is not only Love, but God is a Consuming Fire. You can't have one without the other.

God is not just love, but is a God of wrath, vengeance, and judgment, according to the Scriptures.

God's wrath remains on all those who die unrepentant. After death is the judgment. There are no second chances of grace after death, according to the Scriptures; rather, God's wrath remains on the unredeemed:

1. The unrepented sinner who dies will suffer only God's wrath for eternity,
2. Just as those who repent, will receive God's grace for eternity.

And so, while you remained unmoved from what you want to believe, adding your own words to Scripture and ignoring the context, I will stand upon God's Word within its context just as God intended.

setst777 said:

God is not only Love, but God is a Consuming Fire. You can't have one without the other.

God is a Father only to those who believe. God is NOT the Father of the unbelievers.

Galatians 3:26 … For you are all children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.

1 John 3:6, 8 Whoever remains in him doesn’t practice sin. Whoever lives in sin hasn’t seen or known him… 8 Whoever continues in sin is of the devil.

In the final analysis, for my part, I only believe what the Scriptures state. What I believe has nothing to do with church history, pagan history, or what this or that person says.

I will not presume to add to God's Word my own feelings about how God does what he does. After death, there will be the judgment.

The redeemed will have eternal life, and the unredeemed will have eternal punishment - Parallel destinies. That is God's Word.

Matthew 25:45-46 (WEB)
46 These will go away into eternal [adjective, accusative feminine singular] punishment, but the righteous into eternal [adjective, accusative feminine singular] life.”

Daniel 12:2 (WEB) 2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting (‘ō-w-lām: noun, masculine, singular) life, and some to shame and everlasting (‘ō-w-lām: noun, masculine, singular) contempt.

In both Passages above, eternal life and eternal punishment/contempt both have identical grammatical structure that parallel each other.

Therefore, if Life is eternal then so is Punishment eternal. That is how these Passages are meant to be understood. And God does not lie.

After the judgment, the unredeemed are cast into Outer Darkness, which is a place outside the Kingdom of God. And this Place is just as eternal as God's Kingdom.

“Revelation 14:9-14” and “Revelation 20:10” use similar language; in that, the unredeemed will be cast into the same "Place", having no rest “day or night” “forever and ever” with “the beast” and the “false prophet” in the lake of fire.

There is no indication or instruction given within Scripture that those in the lake of fire will get a second chance of grace later on; rather. . .

1. Just as life is eternal, so is punishment eternal - identical grammar used for each.
2. They are parallel places with eternal parallel consequences.

God is not only Love, but God is a Consuming Fire. You can't have one without the other.

God is not just love, but is a God of wrath, vengeance, and judgment, according to the Scriptures.

God's wrath remains on all those who die unrepentant. After death is the judgment. There are no second chances of grace after death, according to the Scriptures; rather, God's wrath remains on the unredeemed:

1. The unrepented sinner who dies will suffer only God's wrath for eternity,
2. Just as those who repent, will receive God's grace for eternity.

And so, while you remained unmoved from what you want to believe, adding your own words to Scripture and ignoring the context, I will stand upon God's Word within its context just as God intended.

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Scripture says God is love,life and light and in him is no darkness. This is Gods essence his character, and all he does is out of these but mostly his love, he does nothing that is not out of love. Gods consuming fire is an aspect of his love not in conflict with his love.
God is the God of all Jer 32:27 " I am Yahwey, God of all flesh, is anything to difficult for me" God is Father of all not just of those who love him.
Eternal punishment is a pagan idea not of God. The Greek word translated as eternal is aionios and it does not mean eternal, it means pertaining to the age or age abiding. Aionios is the adjective form of the noun aion, which is the Greek word we get age or eon, a limited amount of time not eternal.
If you are true to your word you say you only believe what scripture says , so I will ask you how you interpret these scriptures .
Phil 2:10-11 " Every knee will bow of those in heaven, and those on earth, and those under the earth, and every tongue gladly confess that Jesus is Lord". This is how we know there is post mortem reconciliation.
Matt 25:45-46 believers go to aionios life and unbelievers to kolasis aionios / aionios life is in Jesus and because Jesus is eternal so is the life, but kolasis aionios is judgement of the age, the Greek word kolasis is for punishment unto redemption or correction, not corporal punishment, this lasts till all that is not of God is destroyed but it is not eternal.
Dan 12:2 The Hebrew word olam does not mean eternal. Olam means that the end id not seen, its used for the life of a slave, the time Jonah was in the fish, the temple and priesthood are olam till they ended. This is how olam is used. not eternal.
1 Cor 15: 21-28 As in Adam all died as in Jesus all will live. A direct parallel. all die all live.
2 Cor 5:19 in Christ God was reconciling the cosmos to himself, not counting peoples trespasses against them, and he had given us the message of reconciliation.
Rom 112:32 For God has committed them all to disobedience, that he might have mercy on all.
Rom 5:18 Just as the result of one trespass was condemnation of all men, so also the result of one act of righteousness was justification that brings life for all men.
1 Tim 2:3-6 This is good and acceptable in the sight of God our savior, who will have all men to be saved, and come to the knowledge of the truth.
1 Tim 4:9-11 because we trust in the living God, who is the savior of all men, especially of those who believe.
There are more but I think you get the idea, which leads back to Jer 32:27 I am Yahwey, God of all flesh, Is anything too difficult for me?
We are all Gods children and he has a plan to save all he has created, he knows the beginning from the end and he will save all his creation, some in this age most in the ages to come.

Jeff Saunders said:

Scripture says God is love,life and light and in him is no darkness. This is Gods essence his character, and all he does is out of these but mostly his love, he does nothing that is not out of love. Gods consuming fire is an aspect of his love not in conflict with his love.

Click to expand...

I agree that God is a consuming fire, a God a vengeance, wrath, and judgment, and that this does not conflict with his love.

‘God is life, light, and no darkness,’ which means that God is holy or sanctified in righteousness and love.

God, who is holy, does not dwell with sin. Rather, hates sin; therefore, God's wrath and judgment, as a consuming fire, is upon those who sin.

John 3:36 (WEB) One who believes in the Son has eternal life, but one who disobeys the Son won’t see life, but the wrath of God remains on him.

Romans 1:18 (WEB) For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men who suppress the truth in unrighteousness

Romans 2:5-11 ... 5 But according to your hardness and unrepentant heart you are storing wrath for yourself in the day of wrath, revelation, and the righteous judgment of God; 6 who “will pay back to everyone according to their works

Ephesians 5:6 (WEB) Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of these things the wrath of God comes on the children of disobedience

Hebrews 10:30-31 (WEB) 30 For we know him who said, “Vengeance belongs to me.
I will repay,” says the Lord. Again, “The Lord will judge his people.” 31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

Jeff Saunders said:

God is the God of all Jer 32:27 " I am Yahwey, God of all flesh, is anything to difficult for me" God is Father of all not just of those who love him.

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God is the God of all flesh, even animal life, because God is Creator. God is the Father of all believers.

Lord Jesus said the following to those who did not believe in him.

John 8:42 (WEB) 42 “If God were your father, you would love me, for I came out and have come from God.

John 8:44 (WEB) You are of your father the devil, and you want to do the desires of your father.

Why are you contradicting Lord Jesus by your human wisdom?

The Apostle Paul wrote the following:

Galatians 3:26 (WEB) For you are all children of God through faith in Christ Jesus.

Why are you contradicting the Apostle Paul by your human wisdom?

Jeff Saunders said:

Eternal punishment is a pagan idea not of God. The Greek word translated as eternal is aionios and it does not mean eternal, it means pertaining to the age or age abiding. Aionios is the adjective form of the noun aion, which is the Greek word we get age or eon, a limited amount of time not eternal.

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So, are you saying that eternal life is not eternal?

Matthew 25:45-46 (WEB) 46 These will go away into eternal [aiōnion: ADJECTIVE] punishment, but the righteous into eternal [aiōnion: ADJECTIVE]] life.”

Lord Jesus said those words. Why are you contradicting Lord Jesus by your human wisdom?

Jeff Saunders said:

If you are true to your word you say you only believe what scripture says , so I will ask you how you interpret these scriptures .
Phil 2:10-11 " Every knee will bow of those in heaven, and those on earth, and those under the earth, and every tongue gladly confess that Jesus is Lord". This is how we know there is post mortem reconciliation.

Click to expand...

Every knee will bow, including the resurrected just and the unjust. All will bow to Jesus as Lord over all. But that does not mean all are reconciled to God. Even the demons bowed to and obeyed Lord Jesus while he was on earth.

Jeff Saunders said:

Matt 25:45-46 believers go to aionios life and unbelievers to kolasis aionios / aionios life is in Jesus and because Jesus is eternal so is the life, but kolasis aionios is judgement of the age, the Greek word kolasis is for punishment unto redemption or correction, not corporal punishment, this lasts till all that is not of God is destroyed but it is not eternal.

Click to expand...

You are going back on your teaching that aiónios is adjective, and so, does not mean eternal.

The rest of what you wrote is merely your belief.

• Yes, eternal life is by faith in Lord Jesus.
• Yes, eternal punishment is for unbelievers.

Matthew 25:45-46 (WEB) 46 These will go away into eternal [aiōnion: adjective, accusative feminine singular] punishment, but the righteous into eternal [aiōnion: adjective, accusative feminine singular] life.”

Eternal life and Eternal punishment both have identical grammatical structure that parallels each other. The destinies of the just and the unjust are equally eternal.

The eternal Lord Jesus punishment is eternal, just as the eternal Lord Jesus salvation is eternal.

Jeff Saunders said:

Dan 12:2 The Hebrew word olam does not mean eternal. Olam means that the end id not seen, its used for the life of a slave, the time Jonah was in the fish, the temple and priesthood are olam till they ended. This is how olam is used. not eternal.

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That is your belief, but you cannot prove that by Scripture. “‘ōwlām,” just like “aiōnion” can mean, “for a time,” “indefinitely,” or “forever,” and this depends on the context, which you consistently neglect.

Daniel 12:2 (WEB) 2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting [‘ōwlām: noun, masculine, singular] life, and some to shame and everlasting [‘ōwlām: noun, masculine, singular] contempt.

Everlasting Life and Everlasting Contempt both have identical grammatical structure that parallels each other.

Jeff Saunders said:

1 Cor 15: 21-28 As in Adam all died as in Jesus all will live. A direct parallel. all die all live.

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Paul is writing to Christians, those who believe. That is the context.

1 Corinthians 15:17-22 (WEB) 17 If Christ has not been raised, your faith is vain; you are still in your sins. 18 Then they also who are fallen asleep in Christ have perished. 19 If we [believers] have only hoped in Christ in this life, we are of all men most pitiable. 20 But now Christ has been raised from the dead. He became the first fruit of those who are asleep. 21 For since death came by man, the resurrection of the dead also came by man. 22 For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all [believers] will be made alive.

Only believers are resurrected to Life, and unbelievers are resurrected to be punished.

Matthew 25:45-46 (WEB) 46 These will go away into eternal [aiōnion: adjective, accusative feminine singular] punishment, but the righteous into eternal [aiōnion: adjective, accusative feminine singular] life.”

Jeff Saunders said:

2 Cor 5:19 in Christ God was reconciling the cosmos to himself, not counting peoples trespasses against them, and he had given us the message of reconciliation.

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The “message of reconciliation” is the Gospel. The ones reconciled to, who do not have their trespasses counted against them are believers. Look at the whole context of all the Scriptures.

Acts 3:19 (KJV) Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out

Romans 5:1-2 … 1 For the reasons given, we have been justified through faith; and so, {we} have peace [reconciliation] with God through our Lord Jesus Christ, 2 through whom we have {{{our access}}} by the faith into this grace in which we now stand.

1 Peter 1:9 You are receiving the end result of your faith, the salvation of your souls.

Jeff Saunders said:

Rom 11:32 For God has committed them all to disobedience, that he might have mercy on all.

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The word “might” [subjunctive mood] shows the possibility if a condition is met.

IF you had read the context from where you isolating the quote from, you would understand that only those who remain faithful, whether Jew or Gentile, are those who receive mercy, and the ones who fall away are CUT OFF (Roman 11:19-23).

Jeff Saunders said:

Rom 5:18 Just as the result of one trespass was condemnation of all men, so also the result of one act of righteousness was justification that brings life for all men.

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The Apostle Paul begins Romans 5 with Romans 5:1-2, which is giving a summary of Romans 4, as follows:

Romans 5:1-2 … 1 For the reasons given, we have been justified through faith; and so, {we} have peace [reconciliation] with God through our Lord Jesus Christ, 2 through whom we have {{{our access}}} by the faith into this grace in which we now stand.

Therefore, the one act of righteousness by Lord Jesus does bring life to all men, but only those who believe receive that justification and life that Lord Jesus brought. Lord Jesus brought salvation to the world, so that, those who believe may be saved (John 3:16).

Jeff Saunders said:

1 Tim 2:3-6 This is good and acceptable in the sight of God our savior, who will have all men to be saved, and come to the knowledge of the truth.
1 Tim 4:9-11 because we trust in the living God, who is the savior of all men, especially of those who believe.

Click to expand...

True God does desire all men to be saved, and He is the savior of all men. Salvation is for all mankind, but the only ones God the Savior will save are those who believe, which is taught all through the NT many Passages throughout. For instance, I just quoted “Romans 5:1-2.”

John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes [present and continuous faith] in him should not perish, but [rather] may have [eche: subjunctive mood] Eternal Life.

Isolating Scriptures out of context that are vague by themselves is obviously not going to lead you to the Truth. It is easy to take vague Passages out of their context and supply your own interpretation for what you think it means. You do this, even though you are contradicting all the Scriptures, which teach contrary to your beliefs. You even contradict Lord Jesus.

setst777 said:

Even the demons bowed to and obeyed Lord Jesus while he was on earth.

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Which verse says that demons "bowed" to Jesus?

Beth77 said:

Which verse says that demons "bowed" to Jesus?

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Mark 5:5-9 (WEB)
5 Always, night and day, in the tombs and in the mountains, he was crying out, and cutting himself with stones. 6 When he saw Jesus from afar, he ran and bowed down to him, 7 and crying out with a loud voice, he said, “What have I to do with you, Jesus, you Son of the Most High God? I adjure you by God, don’t torment me.” 8 For he said to him, “Come out of the man, you unclean spirit!”

9 He asked him, “What is your name?”

He said to him, “My name is Legion, for we are many.” ...

12 All the demons begged him, saying, “Send us into the pigs, that we may enter into them.”

setst777 said:

Mark 5:5-9 (WEB)
5 Always, night and day, in the tombs and in the mountains, he was crying out, and cutting himself with stones. 6 When he saw Jesus from afar, he ran and bowed down to him, 7 and crying out with a loud voice, he said, “What have I to do with you, Jesus, you Son of the Most High God? I adjure you by God, don’t torment me.” 8 For he said to him, “Come out of the man, you unclean spirit!”

9 He asked him, “What is your name?”

He said to him, “My name is Legion, for we are many.” ...

12 All the demons begged him, saying, “Send us into the pigs, that we may enter into them.”

Click to expand...

Thank you.

setst777 said:

I agree that God is a consuming fire, a God a vengeance, wrath, and judgment, and that this does not conflict with his love.

‘God is life, light, and no darkness,’ which means that God is holy or sanctified in righteousness and love.

God, who is holy, does not dwell with sin. Rather, hates sin; therefore, God's wrath and judgment, as a consuming fire, is upon those who sin.

John 3:36 (WEB) One who believes in the Son has eternal life, but one who disobeys the Son won’t see life, but the wrath of God remains on him.

Romans 1:18 (WEB) For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men who suppress the truth in unrighteousness

Romans 2:5-11 ... 5 But according to your hardness and unrepentant heart you are storing wrath for yourself in the day of wrath, revelation, and the righteous judgment of God; 6 who “will pay back to everyone according to their works

Ephesians 5:6 (WEB) Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of these things the wrath of God comes on the children of disobedience

Hebrews 10:30-31 (WEB) 30 For we know him who said, “Vengeance belongs to me.
I will repay,” says the Lord. Again, “The Lord will judge his people.” 31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.



God is the God of all flesh, even animal life, because God is Creator. God is the Father of all believers.

Lord Jesus said the following to those who did not believe in him.

John 8:42 (WEB) 42 “If God were your father, you would love me, for I came out and have come from God.

John 8:44 (WEB) You are of your father the devil, and you want to do the desires of your father.

Why are you contradicting Lord Jesus by your human wisdom?

The Apostle Paul wrote the following:

Galatians 3:26 (WEB) For you are all children of God through faith in Christ Jesus.

Why are you contradicting the Apostle Paul by your human wisdom?



So, are you saying that eternal life is not eternal?

Matthew 25:45-46 (WEB) 46 These will go away into eternal [aiōnion: ADJECTIVE] punishment, but the righteous into eternal [aiōnion: ADJECTIVE]] life.”

Lord Jesus said those words. Why are you contradicting Lord Jesus by your human wisdom?



Every knee will bow, including the resurrected just and the unjust. All will bow to Jesus as Lord over all. But that does not mean all are reconciled to God. Even the demons bowed to and obeyed Lord Jesus while he was on earth.



You are going back on your teaching that aiónios is adjective, and so, does not mean eternal.

The rest of what you wrote is merely your belief.

• Yes, eternal life is by faith in Lord Jesus.
• Yes, eternal punishment is for unbelievers.

Matthew 25:45-46 (WEB) 46 These will go away into eternal [aiōnion: adjective, accusative feminine singular] punishment, but the righteous into eternal [aiōnion: adjective, accusative feminine singular] life.”

Eternal life and Eternal punishment both have identical grammatical structure that parallels each other. The destinies of the just and the unjust are equally eternal.

The eternal Lord Jesus punishment is eternal, just as the eternal Lord Jesus salvation is eternal.



That is your belief, but you cannot prove that by Scripture. “‘ōwlām,” just like “aiōnion” can mean, “for a time,” “indefinitely,” or “forever,” and this depends on the context, which you consistently neglect.

Daniel 12:2 (WEB) 2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting [‘ōwlām: noun, masculine, singular] life, and some to shame and everlasting [‘ōwlām: noun, masculine, singular] contempt.

Everlasting Life and Everlasting Contempt both have identical grammatical structure that parallels each other.



Paul is writing to Christians, those who believe. That is the context.

1 Corinthians 15:17-22 (WEB) 17 If Christ has not been raised, your faith is vain; you are still in your sins. 18 Then they also who are fallen asleep in Christ have perished. 19 If we [believers] have only hoped in Christ in this life, we are of all men most pitiable. 20 But now Christ has been raised from the dead. He became the first fruit of those who are asleep. 21 For since death came by man, the resurrection of the dead also came by man. 22 For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all [believers] will be made alive.

Only believers are resurrected to Life, and unbelievers are resurrected to be punished.

Matthew 25:45-46 (WEB) 46 These will go away into eternal [aiōnion: adjective, accusative feminine singular] punishment, but the righteous into eternal [aiōnion: adjective, accusative feminine singular] life.”



The “message of reconciliation” is the Gospel. The ones reconciled to, who do not have their trespasses counted against them are believers. Look at the whole context of all the Scriptures.

Acts 3:19 (KJV) Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out

Romans 5:1-2 … 1 For the reasons given, we have been justified through faith; and so, {we} have peace [reconciliation] with God through our Lord Jesus Christ, 2 through whom we have {{{our access}}} by the faith into this grace in which we now stand.

1 Peter 1:9 You are receiving the end result of your faith, the salvation of your souls.



The word “might” [subjunctive mood] shows the possibility if a condition is met.

IF you had read the context from where you isolating the quote from, you would understand that only those who remain faithful, whether Jew or Gentile, are those who receive mercy, and the ones who fall away are CUT OFF (Roman 11:19-23).



The Apostle Paul begins Romans 5 with Romans 5:1-2, which is giving a summary of Romans 4, as follows:

Romans 5:1-2 … 1 For the reasons given, we have been justified through faith; and so, {we} have peace [reconciliation] with God through our Lord Jesus Christ, 2 through whom we have {{{our access}}} by the faith into this grace in which we now stand.

Therefore, the one act of righteousness by Lord Jesus does bring life to all men, but only those who believe receive that justification and life that Lord Jesus brought. Lord Jesus brought salvation to the world, so that, those who believe may be saved (John 3:16).



True God does desire all men to be saved, and He is the savior of all men. Salvation is for all mankind, but the only ones God the Savior will save are those who believe, which is taught all through the NT many Passages throughout. For instance, I just quoted “Romans 5:1-2.”

John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes [present and continuous faith] in him should not perish, but [rather] may have [eche: subjunctive mood] Eternal Life.

Isolating Scriptures out of context that are vague by themselves is obviously not going to lead you to the Truth. It is easy to take vague Passages out of their context and supply your own interpretation for what you think it means. You do this, even though you are contradicting all the Scriptures, which teach contrary to your beliefs. You even contradict Lord Jesus.

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Wow, We see God from such a different lens. Let me unpack some of what you said.
Humanity is made in Gods image, we are the apple of his eye and he loves each and every one of us, unconditionally. The wrath and judgement that you talk so much about are not on humanity ,but on the things that are keeping people from seeing who God is and the very thing that is destroying us from seeing God for the loving Father that he is, we are no longer under the old covenant of do good get good, do bad get bad, we are under or in the new covenant, things are different now, that's why its important to rightly divide the word of truth.
Acts 2:17 " and in the last days it shall happen, says God, that I will pour forth from my Spirit upon all flesh"
We are in those last days and God being true to his scripture has done just that, all people have the Spirit in them, though most do not know this and keep rejecting what the Spirit inside them speaking. This is what the " unforgivable sin" is, rejecting the Spirit that God has placed in all flesh, as long as we reject the Spirits call to reconciliation we walk in death. When we give in to the Spirit we cross over from death to life.
For most this will only happen after the mortal body is dead, sin is then no longer in control and people can see Jesus clearly and then they will be reconciled and cross over from death to life.
Unfortunately most of the Church has bought into the lie that we are our mortal body and we can only respond to God in our mortal body. God pursues us not our mortal body, they all die anyway. Scripture is clear `1 Tim 2:3-6 Its Gods will that all men be saved and come to the knowledge of the truth. We know what Gods will is and it will be done. Three times in scripture God says every knee will bow and every tongue will confess that Jesus is Lord. 1 Cor 15:28 tells us in the end "God will be all in all" so we know the telos of God, that all the creation will worship him and sin and darkness will be no more.
Anyone with eyes can see that in this time not many are following God, in fact scripture calls it a narrow path that few find, so most will be reconciled in the next age, but through chastisement unto repentance. Gods plan all along is to create a creation that would come along side of him and join into the love and fellowship that the Trinity has had for all eternity. Not that we become part of the Godhead but we are adopted in with Jesus, just like Jesus prayed, Father that they may be one with me as I am one with you. God wants the truest form of love and that is love from free will, but in order for us to have free will, we must be able to go against God and his will, and that has made life for the last about 6000 years nothing but a mess, but this is the best process for God to get what he wants. Is 46:11 Indeed, I have spoken, indeed I shall bring it to pass! I have formed a plan indeed, I shall do it. Jer 32:27 I am Yahwey, God if all flesh. Is anything too difficult for me? Is 14:24 Just as I have intended so it will be, just as I have planned, it will happen.
Do you really think that God has told us his will that all be saved and that every knee shall bow and every tongue confess that Jesus is Lord, as in Adam all die, in Christ all will be made alive, Jesus came to save the cosmos not judge it, Jesus is the Christ, the savior of the world. Did God lie? or has the modern Church done the same thing the Jews did, they knew scripture better than us but they missed God, killing him on a cross. We miss God thinking that we can save ourselves if we can just jump through whatever hoopes our tradition tells us to jump through so Jesus gets in between God and us and now God cant touch us, he killed Jesus instead of us. Now when God looks at us he sees Jesus not us. The Western Church has missed God no different than the Jews 2000 years ago.

Jeff Saunders said:

Wow, We see God from such a different lens. Let me unpack some of what you said.
Humanity is made in Gods image, we are the apple of his eye and he loves each and every one of us, unconditionally.

Click to expand...

God originally made us in God's Image, but after Adam sinned, Adam's children were in Adam's image - sinful and rebellious.

Genesis 5:3 (WEB) Adam lived one hundred thirty years, and became the father of a son in his own likeness, after his image, and named him Seth.

Pertaining to woman, man is positionally the head of the Woman, as Christ is the head of the Church; and so, man is positionally the image and glory of God. However, a woman is not positionally the image and glory of God; rather, the woman is positionally the glory of man (1 Corinthians 11:7).

When a person repents and comes to faith in Lord Jesus, following him, he is again being renewed into the image of God.

Colossians 3:9-10 (WEB) 9 Don’t lie to one another, seeing that you have put off the old man with his doings, 10 and have put on the new man, who is being renewed in knowledge after the image of his Creator

Apple of His Eye

God revealed that Israel and its people were the apple of his eye because he chose them to be his very own people, giving them his direct attention, saving them, and nurturing them as a child (Deuteronomy 32:10; Zechariah 2:8).

Jeff Saunders said:

The wrath and judgement that you talk so much about are not on humanity ,but on the things that are keeping people from seeing who God is and the very thing that is destroying us from seeing God for the loving Father that he is, we are no longer under the old covenant of do good get good, do bad get bad, we are under or in the new covenant, things are different now, that's why its important to rightly divide the word of truth.

Click to expand...

I gave you New Testament Passages several times plainly teaching us that God will judge the unbelievers in His wrath.

God's wrath and judgment, as a consuming fire, is upon those who sin.

John 3:36 (WEB) One who believes in the Son has eternal life, but one who disobeys the Son won’t see life, but the wrath of God remains on him.

Ephesians 5:6 (WEB) Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of these things the wrath of God comes on the children of disobedience

Have you been deceived by empty words of your own making?

Jeff Saunders said:

Acts 2:17 " and in the last days it shall happen, says God, that I will pour forth from my Spirit upon all flesh"

Click to expand...

This is a New Covenant Promise fulfilled after Lord Jesus was glorified, and began at Pentecost. This Promise of the Spirit is only for those who believe, just as the New Testament explains.

Acts 2:33 (WEB) Being therefore exalted by the right hand of God, and having received from the Father the promise of the Holy Spirit, he has poured out this which you now see and hear.

The Spirit is only poured out upon those who first believe.

John 7:38-39 … 38 Whoever believes in me, as Scripture has said, rivers of living water will flow from within them.” 39 By this he meant the Spirit, whom those who believed in him were later to receive. For the Holy Spirit was not yet given, because Jesus was not yet glorified.

We receive the promise of the Spirit by faith.

Ephesians 1:13 (WEB) ... in whom, having also believed, you were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit

Unbelievers do not receive the Spirit; rather, unbelievers remain under God's wrath.

Jeff Saunders said:

Unfortunately most of the Church has bought into the lie that we are our mortal body and we can only respond to God in our mortal body. God pursues us not our mortal body, they all die anyway. Scripture is clear `1 Tim 2:3-6 Its Gods will that all men be saved and come to the knowledge of the truth. We know what Gods will is and it will be done. Three times in scripture God says every knee will bow and every tongue will confess that Jesus is Lord. 1 Cor 15:28 tells us in the end "God will be all in all" so we know the telos of God, that all the creation will worship him and sin and darkness will be no more.

Click to expand...

God desires all to be saved, and so, he calls them to repent and believe to be saved. Many will refuse God's offer of salvation, but God's desire for them is that they be saved (1 Tim 2:3-6).

God will be all in all (1 Cor 15:28); in that God will no longer allow sin and death to reign. God being all in all does not nullify God's plan to carry out judgment and wrath on the unrighteous for eternity.

Believers are resurrected to Life, and unbelievers are resurrected to be punished.

Matthew 25:45-46 (WEB) 46 These will go away into eternal [aiōnion: adjective, accusative feminine singular] punishment, but the righteous into eternal [aiōnion: adjective, accusative feminine singular] life.”

Jeff Saunders said:

Anyone with eyes can see that in this time not many are following God, in fact scripture calls it a narrow path that few find, so most will be reconciled in the next age, but through chastisement unto repentance.

Click to expand...

There is no next age where those who died in their sins are reconciled. That is not in God's Word.

Hebrews 9:27 It is appointed unto men once to die, but after that the judgment

Believers are resurrected to Life, and unbelievers are resurrected to be punished.

Matthew 25:45-46 (WEB) 46 These will go away into eternal [aiōnion: adjective, accusative feminine singular] punishment, but the righteous into eternal [aiōnion: adjective, accusative feminine singular] life.”

Jeff Saunders said:

Gods plan all along is to create a creation that would come along side of him and join into the love and fellowship that the Trinity has had for all eternity. Not that we become part of the Godhead but we are adopted in with Jesus, just like Jesus prayed, Father that they may be one with me as I am one with you. God wants the truest form of love and that is love from free will, but in order for us to have free will, we must be able to go against God and his will, and that has made life for the last about 6000 years nothing but a mess, but this is the best process for God to get what he wants. Is 46:11 Indeed, I have spoken, indeed I shall bring it to pass! I have formed a plan indeed, I shall do it. Jer 32:27 I am Yahwey, God if all flesh. Is anything too difficult for me? Is 14:24 Just as I have intended so it will be, just as I have planned, it will happen.

Click to expand...

God explains his plan in the New Testament.

John 3:36 (WEB) One who believes in the Son has eternal life, but one who disobeys the Son won’t see life, but the wrath of God remains on him.

So, God's plan is: Repent and live eternally, or remain unrepentant and be condemned eternally.

Hebrews 9:27 It is appointed unto men once to die, but after that the judgment

Believers are resurrected to Life, and unbelievers are resurrected to be punished.

Matthew 25:45-46 (WEB) 46 These will go away into eternal [aiōnion: adjective, accusative feminine singular] punishment, but the righteous into eternal [aiōnion: adjective, accusative feminine singular] life.”

Jeff Saunders said:

Do you really think that God has told us his will that all be saved and that every knee shall bow and every tongue confess that Jesus is Lord, as in Adam all die, in Christ all will be made alive, Jesus came to save the cosmos not judge it, Jesus is the Christ, the savior of the world. Did God lie?

Click to expand...

I already answered these Scriptures in detail by God's Word, and you just ignored God and His Word.

Every knee will bow, including the resurrected just and the unjust. All will bow to Jesus as Lord over all. But that does not mean all are reconciled to God. Even the demons bowed to and obeyed Lord Jesus while he was on earth; yet, the demons are not reconciled to God.

Mark 5:6-12 (WEB)
6 When he saw Jesus from afar, he ran and bowed down to him, 7 and crying out with a loud voice, he said, “What have I to do with you, Jesus, you Son of the Most High God? I adjure you by God, don’t torment me.” 8 For he said to him, “Come out of the man, you unclean spirit!”

9 He asked him, “What is your name?”

He said to him, “My name is Legion, for we are many.” ...

12 All the demons begged him, saying, “Send us into the pigs, that we may enter into them.”

Isolating Scriptures out of context that are vague by themselves is obviously not going to lead you to the Truth. It is easy to take vague Passages out of their context and supply your own interpretation for what you think it means. You do this, even though you are contradicting all the Scriptures, which teach contrary to your beliefs. You even contradict Lord Jesus.

Ephesians 5:6 (WEB) Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of these things the wrath of God comes on the children of disobedience

Have you been deceived by empty words of your own making?

setst777 said:

God originally made us in God's Image, but after Adam sinned, Adam's children were in Adam's image - sinful and rebellious.

Genesis 5:3 (WEB) Adam lived one hundred thirty years, and became the father of a son in his own likeness, after his image, and named him Seth.

Pertaining to woman, man is positionally the head of the Woman, as Christ is the head of the Church; and so, man is positionally the image and glory of God. However, a woman is not positionally the image and glory of God; rather, the woman is positionally the glory of man (1 Corinthians 11:7).

When a person repents and comes to faith in Lord Jesus, following him, he is again being renewed into the image of God.

Colossians 3:9-10 (WEB) 9 Don’t lie to one another, seeing that you have put off the old man with his doings, 10 and have put on the new man, who is being renewed in knowledge after the image of his Creator

Apple of His Eye

God revealed that Israel and its people were the apple of his eye because he chose them to be his very own people, giving them his direct attention, saving them, and nurturing them as a child (Deuteronomy 32:10; Zechariah 2:8).



I gave you New Testament Passages several times plainly teaching us that God will judge the unbelievers in His wrath.

God's wrath and judgment, as a consuming fire, is upon those who sin.

John 3:36 (WEB) One who believes in the Son has eternal life, but one who disobeys the Son won’t see life, but the wrath of God remains on him.

Ephesians 5:6 (WEB) Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of these things the wrath of God comes on the children of disobedience

Have you been deceived by empty words of your own making?



This is a New Covenant Promise fulfilled after Lord Jesus was glorified, and began at Pentecost. This Promise of the Spirit is only for those who believe, just as the New Testament explains.

Acts 2:33 (WEB) Being therefore exalted by the right hand of God, and having received from the Father the promise of the Holy Spirit, he has poured out this which you now see and hear.

The Spirit is only poured out upon those who first believe.

John 7:38-39 … 38 Whoever believes in me, as Scripture has said, rivers of living water will flow from within them.” 39 By this he meant the Spirit, whom those who believed in him were later to receive. For the Holy Spirit was not yet given, because Jesus was not yet glorified.

We receive the promise of the Spirit by faith.

Ephesians 1:13 (WEB) ... in whom, having also believed, you were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit

Unbelievers do not receive the Spirit; rather, unbelievers remain under God's wrath.



God desires all to be saved, and so, he calls them to repent and believe to be saved. Many will refuse God's offer of salvation, but God's desire for them is that they be saved (1 Tim 2:3-6).

God will be all in all (1 Cor 15:28); in that God will no longer allow sin and death to reign. God being all in all does not nullify God's plan to carry out judgment and wrath on the unrighteous for eternity.

Believers are resurrected to Life, and unbelievers are resurrected to be punished.

Matthew 25:45-46 (WEB) 46 These will go away into eternal [aiōnion: adjective, accusative feminine singular] punishment, but the righteous into eternal [aiōnion: adjective, accusative feminine singular] life.”



There is no next age where those who died in their sins are reconciled. That is not in God's Word.

Hebrews 9:27 It is appointed unto men once to die, but after that the judgment

Believers are resurrected to Life, and unbelievers are resurrected to be punished.

Matthew 25:45-46 (WEB) 46 These will go away into eternal [aiōnion: adjective, accusative feminine singular] punishment, but the righteous into eternal [aiōnion: adjective, accusative feminine singular] life.”



God explains his plan in the New Testament.

John 3:36 (WEB) One who believes in the Son has eternal life, but one who disobeys the Son won’t see life, but the wrath of God remains on him.

So, God's plan is: Repent and live eternally, or remain unrepentant and be condemned eternally.

Hebrews 9:27 It is appointed unto men once to die, but after that the judgment

Believers are resurrected to Life, and unbelievers are resurrected to be punished.

Matthew 25:45-46 (WEB) 46 These will go away into eternal [aiōnion: adjective, accusative feminine singular] punishment, but the righteous into eternal [aiōnion: adjective, accusative feminine singular] life.”



I already answered these Scriptures in detail by God's Word, and you just ignored God and His Word.

Every knee will bow, including the resurrected just and the unjust. All will bow to Jesus as Lord over all. But that does not mean all are reconciled to God. Even the demons bowed to and obeyed Lord Jesus while he was on earth; yet, the demons are not reconciled to God.

Mark 5:6-12 (WEB)
6 When he saw Jesus from afar, he ran and bowed down to him, 7 and crying out with a loud voice, he said, “What have I to do with you, Jesus, you Son of the Most High God? I adjure you by God, don’t torment me.” 8 For he said to him, “Come out of the man, you unclean spirit!”

9 He asked him, “What is your name?”

He said to him, “My name is Legion, for we are many.” ...

12 All the demons begged him, saying, “Send us into the pigs, that we may enter into them.”

Isolating Scriptures out of context that are vague by themselves is obviously not going to lead you to the Truth. It is easy to take vague Passages out of their context and supply your own interpretation for what you think it means. You do this, even though you are contradicting all the Scriptures, which teach contrary to your beliefs. You even contradict Lord Jesus.

Ephesians 5:6 (WEB) Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of these things the wrath of God comes on the children of disobedience

Have you been deceived by empty words of your own making?

Click to expand...

I will ask you to think on something.
From all that you have posted, What god are you worshiping?
This is how you are portraying God.
God knows the beginning from the end, he sees all and nothing happens that he does not allow to happen or decree.
God makes man in his own image, and before he makes each person, God knows that they will either follow him or reject him, but he still makes all people.
God makes Adam and Eve and places them in a perfect garden, satan comes in and messes Gods plan up and now God is trying to save at least some of what he created. God kicks Adam and Eve out of the garden and has to create a place called hell that he now has to use to punish all those who do not do whatever he wants depending on the time they live in, ( thats the ages )
God know because he has foreknowledge that most of the people he will create will disobey him and he will have to torture them for all eternity, listening to their cries as he supernaturally keeps them alive and the fire burning, ( something scripture says he hates, and sin goes on for all eternity , something else he says he hates)
God wants to save them but mans will is stronger than his, so he loses out on most of his creation.
Now God is really mad and angry that man disobeyed him and he has all this wrath built up that must be satisfied, so he sends Jesus to live a human life and he takes all his wrath out on Jesus, not us, we call it grace and mercy, so now if you do whatever your tradition tells you to do and keep Jesus in between you and God you can go to heaven and not hell.
So God keeps on creating people, knowing he will have to burn them forever , maybe billions we don't know, but someday he will stop and a few go to heaven the rest burn forever.
Would it not be more loving to not create anyone who he has to burn forever? Is this what you call a loving God?
This looks more like the pagan gods of old.
Now let me tell you about Yahwey the creator and sustainer of all things.
God id love, life and light and in him is no darkness.
God the Father and God the son and God the Holy Spirit have had a love relationship for all eternity and that love is infinite, it has no limits or end, we call that the Trinity,
The Trinity wanted to share this love with creation and they through Jesus created the cosmos and placed a creation called man, and God placed his image into man and breathed on him giving him life, part of God himself,
God could have made man to love and serve him and have no choice, but God being love wanted his creation to experience the greatest form of love, and that is love from free will, so God created man to only be complete when we are in fellowship with him but also gave us the capacity to reject him, because God wants the free will love, he only wants and excepts the best.
For this to happen the Trinity had to allow evil to be possible, God knew fully what would happen if he allowed evil to be part of his creation, it would make for a very bad time for most of his creation, and we have seen the effects for 6000+ years, but this is the best way to get what he wants( and God gets what he wants otherwise he would not be God)
God being love itself, not a god who loves, but love itself , knew that if he allowed evil to come in He must pay the cost, remember he can do nothing but out of love, so scripture says Jesus was crucified before the foundation of the earth, God in Jesus would pay for all that evil would do, he is reasonable for his actions. And Jesus became sin and defeated death on the cross, Jesus entered into humanity and took all this on himself and was crucified so that now Jesus is in humanity not outside, he came to bring reconciliation 2 Cor 5:19 .
Now we who have been reconciled are to spread the word that Jesus has bought our reconciliation and we can pass from death to life now and live for God now, by dying to self and living for him and become one with Jesus.
God new that this process would take time and many ages, but in the end all will do as written "Every knee will bow and every tongue will confess Jesus is Lord"
Sadly this will take chastisement in the next age but God will get what he wants 1 Cor 15:28 in the end God will be all in all, then a New Earth and New Heaven, the old is gone all will be new and all the cosmos will be redeemed and reconciled.
That is the God of scripture and the God I worship and serve.

Cygna said:

I apologize if this is considered adversarial, but I have not heard a satisfactory answer yet despite asking my whole life basically. The Bible says that the way to life is narrow, and few find it. I heard a prophecy that only 1 of 1000 people make it to heaven actually. So my question is, how is God ok with this? Why did He allow this planet, original sin’s curse, etc. to work out like this?

The first answer I heard was that it’s just inevitable, He’s sad, but He did everything He could by sending Jesus on the cross. This seems not very believable. An omnipotent God literally could not do more to save 99.9% of His creation? And even so, why would He allow this planet to persist knowing He could not save the billions of people going to hell?

The other answer I heard is just that He has a right to do whatever, we are naturally His enemies, so that’s just how it is. That like the Bible says, He is the potter and we are the clay, so we just have to accept that we will likely become objects of wrath unless we are both fortunate with special mercy and also extremely faithful which is difficult on a planet already having original sin.

Another answer is that it’s our fault we turn like this and it’s our rebellion. Honestly I would understand if Satan was considered at fault for rebellion considering one third of angels fell. I do not understand how we are at fault when we already have a curse just from being born, and 99.9% of us don’t make it. The odds are heavily against us, and saying “the soul that sins shall die” regardless seems extremely cruel and harsh.

It is made worse that hell is eternal and torturous. God literally decreed that hell should be this way, without anyone forcing Him to. He could’ve invented another system. I’ve concluded that existence is painful and doomed for creatures who were born into the wrong life, and God doesn’t care except for those very few who are humble, virtuous, and favored enough to make it and praise Him for His mercy to save them from a wrath that He Himself created. It really seems like all He cares about is His glory, and He can just ruin our eternal lives like it’s nothing.

Click to expand...

God repents himself for creating man on the earth, as if he didn't know already the consequences of his actions ...

Aseyesee said:

God repents himself for creating man on the earth, as if he didn't know already the consequences of his actions ...

Click to expand...

If anyone thinks God needs to repent, they do not know God.

Jeff Saunders said:

If anyone thinks God needs to repent, they do not know God.

Click to expand...

That is my point ... yet the words are there ... for our benefit ...

Jeff Saunders said:

I will ask you to think on something.
From all that you have posted, What god are you worshiping?
This is how you are portraying God.
God knows the beginning from the end, he sees all and nothing happens that he does not allow to happen or decree.
God makes man in his own image, and before he makes each person, God knows that they will either follow him or reject him, but he still makes all people.
God makes Adam and Eve and places them in a perfect garden, satan comes in and messes Gods plan up and now God is trying to save at least some of what he created. God kicks Adam and Eve out of the garden and has to create a place called hell that he now has to use to punish all those who do not do whatever he wants depending on the time they live in, ( thats the ages )
God know because he has foreknowledge that most of the people he will create will disobey him and he will have to torture them for all eternity, listening to their cries as he supernaturally keeps them alive and the fire burning, ( something scripture says he hates, and sin goes on for all eternity , something else he says he hates)
God wants to save them but mans will is stronger than his, so he loses out on most of his creation.
Now God is really mad and angry that man disobeyed him and he has all this wrath built up that must be satisfied, so he sends Jesus to live a human life and he takes all his wrath out on Jesus, not us, we call it grace and mercy, so now if you do whatever your tradition tells you to do and keep Jesus in between you and God you can go to heaven and not hell.
So God keeps on creating people, knowing he will have to burn them forever , maybe billions we don't know, but someday he will stop and a few go to heaven the rest burn forever.
Would it not be more loving to not create anyone who he has to burn forever? Is this what you call a loving God?

Click to expand...

You turn to man's reasoning to explain away the whole council of God. In contrast, I have shown from God's word what God has to say about why he created us, and what His plans are for us. You have seen the God's word, but you want to explain away the things you dislike that God revealed and replace it with your own superior reasoning.

Jeff Saunders said:

This looks more like the pagan gods of old.
Now let me tell you about Yahwey the creator and sustainer of all things.
God id love, life and light and in him is no darkness.
God the Father and God the son and God the Holy Spirit have had a love relationship for all eternity and that love is infinite, it has no limits or end, we call that the Trinity,
The Trinity wanted to share this love with creation and they through Jesus created the cosmos and placed a creation called man, and God placed his image into man and breathed on him giving him life, part of God himself,
God could have made man to love and serve him and have no choice, but God being love wanted his creation to experience the greatest form of love, and that is love from free will, so God created man to only be complete when we are in fellowship with him but also gave us the capacity to reject him, because God wants the free will love, he only wants and excepts the best.

Click to expand...

And because a loving God created mankind with free will is why many will freely choose to disobey God and suffer his wrath, and some will, in humility, repent and believe, and so, receive God's plan of love for them.

John 3:36 (WEB) One who believes in the Son has eternal life,
but one who disobeys the Son won’t see life, but the wrath of God remains on him.

Ephesians 5:6 (WEB) Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of these things the wrath of God comes on the children of disobedience

Jeff Saunders said:

For this to happen the Trinity had to allow evil to be possible, God knew fully what would happen if he allowed evil to be part of his creation, it would make for a very bad time for most of his creation, and we have seen the effects for 6000+ years, but this is the best way to get what he wants( and God gets what he wants otherwise he would not be God)
God being love itself, not a god who loves, but love itself , knew that if he allowed evil to come in He must pay the cost, remember he can do nothing but out of love, so scripture says Jesus was crucified before the foundation of the earth, God in Jesus would pay for all that evil would do, he is reasonable for his actions. And Jesus became sin and defeated death on the cross, Jesus entered into humanity and took all this on himself and was crucified so that now Jesus is in humanity not outside, he came to bring reconciliation 2 Cor 5:19 .

Click to expand...

The reconciliation to God by the blood of Christ is only for those in humanity who will believe in the Son, following him now, in this present age.

Romans 3:25 (NIV) [Paul teaching Christians] God presented Christ as a sacrifice of atonement, through the shedding of his blood – to be received by faith.

Romans 5:1 ‘For these reasons [Romans 4], we [Christians] are justified by faith, having peace [reconciliation] with God through our Lord Jesus Christ; 2 by whom we also have our access by faith into this grace in which we stand. We [believers] rejoice in hope of God’s glory.’

The blood of Christ saves only those who will repent and believe.

John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes [present and continuous faith] in him should not perish, but [rather] may have [*eche subjunctive] Eternal Life.

Acts 3:19 Repent therefore, and be converted [unto righteousness], that your sins may be blotted out

The wrath of God remains upon those who do not repent and believe.

John 3:18 (WEB) He who doesn’t believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the one and only Son of God.

John 3:36 (WEB)
One who believes in the Son has eternal life,
but one who disobeys the Son won’t see life, but the wrath of God remains on him.

To whom does the wrath of God remain?

Can you read and understand the above Scriptures?

Jeff Saunders said:

Now we who have been reconciled are to spread the word that Jesus has bought our reconciliation and we can pass from death to life now and live for God now, by dying to self and living for him and become one with Jesus.

Click to expand...

Only some people will die to self and live for him. Most desire to live in sin; and so, God wrath remain on these.

Jeff Saunders said:

God new that this process would take time and many ages, but in the end all will do as written "Every knee will bow and every tongue will confess Jesus is Lord"

Click to expand...

There is no reincarnation. There is no "many ages" in which those cast into outer darkness, the Lake of Fire, will get many chances to undo their judgment. That is your reasoning, but that is not what God teaches us in His Word.

God's plan is: Repent and live eternally, or remain unrepentant and be condemned eternally.

Hebrews 9:27 It is appointed unto men once to die, but after that the judgment

Believers are resurrected to Life, and unbelievers are resurrected to be punished.

Matthew 25:45-46 (WEB) 46 These will go away into eternal [aiōnion: adjective, accusative feminine singular] punishment, but the righteous into eternal [aiōnion: adjective, accusative feminine singular] life.”

Jeff Saunders said:

Sadly this will take chastisement in the next age but God will get what he wants 1 Cor 15:28 in the end God will be all in all, then a New Earth and New Heaven, the old is gone all will be new and all the cosmos will be redeemed and reconciled.
That is the God of scripture and the God I worship and serve.

Click to expand...

We are reconciled to God by faith in him now, in this present age, as Scripture states.

Romans 5:1-2 … 1 For the reasons given, we have been justified through faith; and so, {we} have peace [reconciliation] with God through our Lord Jesus Christ, 2 through whom we have {{{our access}}} by the faith into this grace in which we now stand.

Lord Jesus warns the true believers (disciples) to WATCH, BE ALERT! now, so they may stand before the Son of Man.

Luke 21:34-36 (WEB) Jesus warning his disciples until the end comes 34 “So be careful, or your hearts will be loaded down with carousing, drunkenness, and cares of this life, and that day will come on you suddenly. 35 For it will come like a snare on all those who dwell on the surface of all the earth. 36 Therefore be watchful all the time, praying that you may be counted worthy to escape all these things that will happen, and to stand before the Son of Man.”

After this age of grace is the judgment. There are no more chances. That is why only a few are saved.

Hebrews 9:27 It is appointed unto men once to die, but after that the judgment

Luke 13:23-29 (WEB) 23 “Lord, are they few who are saved?” He said to them, 24 “Strive to enter in by the narrow door, for many, I tell you, will seek to enter in and will not be able. 25 Once the master of the house gets up and shuts the door, you will stand outside and knock on the door, saying, ‘Lord, open the door for us.’ He will reply, ‘I don’t know you or where you are from.’ 26 Then you will reply, ‘We ate and drank in your presence, and you taught in our streets.’ 27 He will respond, ‘I don’t know you or where you are from. Go away from me all you evildoers!’ 28 There will be weeping and gnashing of teeth when you see Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, and all the prophets in God’s kingdom, but you yourselves will be thrown outside. 29 People will come from east and west, north and south, and sit down to eat in God’s kingdom.

Once the Master shuts the door, that is it - no more chances. Only God's wrath awaits those who lived in iniquity.

Can you understand why the warnings of Lord Jesus are serious for us now, in this life, before the Judgment?

Believers are resurrected to Eternal Life, and unbelievers are resurrected to Eternal Punishment.

Matthew 25:45-46 (WEB) 46 These will go away into eternal [aiōnion: adjective, accusative feminine singular] punishment, but the righteous into eternal [aiōnion: adjective, accusative feminine singular] life.”

It's actually governed by mathematics. It's like throwing heads and tails, you are asking for all heads with 100,000 throws, the probability is 0.5x0.5x....(100,000 times). In statistics and mathematics, the normal distribution governs the situation with an Expected Outcome of roughly 50,000 heads and 50,000 tails.
Similarly, free will at the end means one is given the ability to oppose and (more importantly) harm God by sinning. The Final Heaven on the other hand, is built for God and angels and humans to live happily and eternally, it's a wonderland for the three parties. No one will harm God by sinning in Heaven, or else God is not the party who can live happily!

By the factor of free will, the mathematical Normal Distribution of angelic behavior and human behavior form an Expected Outcome, roughly 2/3 angels with 1/3 humans shall be able to pass the Final Judgment of Law to enter Heaven. Law is simply an assessment on whether one would harm God in Heaven, and break the harmony of the 3-party living place. To put it another way, the Law is actually a promise from a completely sin-incompatible God that, if you can pass the Judgmetn of Law God would bear with you in eternity no matter what, just like a Shepherd to His sheep.

However there's another factor affecting the mathematical formula. It's the "crafty snake" effect (or the snake to Adam effect). Humans are made to be with much lower intelligence but with a larger degree of free will. Angels (the bad ones can be described as crafty snakes) are made to be much more capable and intelligent, because their very existence is to participate in God's various creation tasks. The 1/3 fallen angels can thus have an impact on the low intelligence humans. Actually with influence from "the god of this world" and his angels, no humans are savable.

Isaiah 14:17
the man who made the world a desert, who overthrew its cities and would not let his captives go home?

Satan and his angels have all the capability and intelligence to keep all mankind captive under Law. As said, (in front of Law) no one is righteous, not even one.

By the factor of Jesus then, the 1/3 savable humans are brought back. In summary,
By the factor of free will, 2/3 angels and 1/3 humans shall be deemed savable (as governed by the mathematical Normal Distribution).
By the factor of influence from angels to humans, 2/3 angels will be saved, no human is savable.
By the factor of Jesus' self-sacrifice (as demanded by Law), 1/3 humans are deemed savable again (i.e., through the original mathematical "narrow gate")

The same Isaiah verse, "the man who made the world a desert, who overthrew its cities". This shows the nature of Earth. By the influence of Satan and his angels, all mankind assume that Earth shall be a paradise (and without disasters and suffering). In contrast to this assumption, Earth is actually a hell which should have been destroyed long ago with a flood (Noah's flood). Law enforces such a hell to be fully destroyed in order to protect God from continuously being harmed.

What is a hell then? Hell is a place without God's influence and God's presences that it grows naturally into a place where the most evil and the most powerful will eventually rule. Earth is a hell where Satan can be deemed as "the god of this world". Satan has all the capability to "overthrow its cities" in whatever way he wants, especially for the purpose against God's salvation. That's actually why all atheists have to assume that "earth must be a heaven" and refuse to believe in God because "suffering is not fixed". That begs the question, can God fix the suffering on earth? First, what for? For Satan to re-throw it over and over again? God doesn't build anything for Satan to play as toys! Second, what is earth anyway? Have you tried to work 24/7 inside a pool full of sh*t and boos? If you refuse to work inside a pool of boos 24/7, there's no reason for God to work within this earth and hell.

To put it another way, earth is not yet fully hellish simply because God promised Noah that He will bear with us till the Final Judgment but not beyond. He's now working in a pool of boos 24/7. Do you know why insulting the Holy Spirit is not forgivable but insulting the Son of Man is? It is because insulting the Son of Man is never forgivable if it's not Jesus' self-sacrifice. The harm done by insulting Jesus is part of the 24/7 boo work. That's why God (the Father) never actually left His true name to humans, while Jesus will have a new name after the Final Judgment (the book of Revelation).

No one will be able to harm God again the same way after the Final Judge. Heaven is a place where no one gets hurt. God declares that God is the God of the living but not the God of the dead. After the Final Judgment, Satan is literally the god of the dead. God will not answer any request from the dead, as He's no longer their God at all. This state is referred to as a permanent separation. God cuts His knowledge and disconnects Himself from the realm of the dead.

Revelation 22:14-15
Blessed are those who wash their robes, that they may have the right to the tree of life and may go through the gates into the city.
Outside are the dogs, those who practice magic arts, the sexually immoral, the murderers, the idolaters and everyone who loves and practices falsehood.

The dead are left on their own. Shall they have any request, they can only ask their god Satan. On the other hand, this universe and planet earth are not the true nature, as they are God-made. The true nature shall be full of energy and fire which are outside of Satan's capability to counter. The prophesied ending is, the realm of death will eventually run into the nature of eternal fire.

setst777 said:

You turn to man's reasoning to explain away the whole council of God. In contrast, I have shown from God's word what God has to say about why he created us, and what His plans are for us. You have seen the God's word, but you want to explain away the things you dislike that God revealed and replace it with your own superior reasoning.



And because a loving God created mankind with free will is why many will freely choose to disobey God and suffer his wrath, and some will, in humility, repent and believe, and so, receive God's plan of love for them.

John 3:36 (WEB) One who believes in the Son has eternal life,
but one who disobeys the Son won’t see life, but the wrath of God remains on him.

Ephesians 5:6 (WEB) Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of these things the wrath of God comes on the children of disobedience



The reconciliation to God by the blood of Christ is only for those in humanity who will believe in the Son, following him now, in this present age.

Romans 3:25 (NIV) [Paul teaching Christians] God presented Christ as a sacrifice of atonement, through the shedding of his blood – to be received by faith.

Romans 5:1 ‘For these reasons [Romans 4], we [Christians] are justified by faith, having peace [reconciliation] with God through our Lord Jesus Christ; 2 by whom we also have our access by faith into this grace in which we stand. We [believers] rejoice in hope of God’s glory.’

The blood of Christ saves only those who will repent and believe.

John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes [present and continuous faith] in him should not perish, but [rather] may have [*eche subjunctive] Eternal Life.

Acts 3:19 Repent therefore, and be converted [unto righteousness], that your sins may be blotted out

The wrath of God remains upon those who do not repent and believe.

John 3:18 (WEB) He who doesn’t believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the one and only Son of God.

John 3:36 (WEB)
One who believes in the Son has eternal life,
but one who disobeys the Son won’t see life, but the wrath of God remains on him.

To whom does the wrath of God remain?

Can you read and understand the above Scriptures?



Only some people will die to self and live for him. Most desire to live in sin; and so, God wrath remain on these.



There is no reincarnation. There is no "many ages" in which those cast into outer darkness, the Lake of Fire, will get many chances to undo their judgment. That is your reasoning, but that is not what God teaches us in His Word.

God's plan is: Repent and live eternally, or remain unrepentant and be condemned eternally.

Hebrews 9:27 It is appointed unto men once to die, but after that the judgment

Believers are resurrected to Life, and unbelievers are resurrected to be punished.

Matthew 25:45-46 (WEB) 46 These will go away into eternal [aiōnion: adjective, accusative feminine singular] punishment, but the righteous into eternal [aiōnion: adjective, accusative feminine singular] life.”



We are reconciled to God by faith in him now, in this present age, as Scripture states.

Romans 5:1-2 … 1 For the reasons given, we have been justified through faith; and so, {we} have peace [reconciliation] with God through our Lord Jesus Christ, 2 through whom we have {{{our access}}} by the faith into this grace in which we now stand.

Lord Jesus warns the true believers (disciples) to WATCH, BE ALERT! now, so they may stand before the Son of Man.

Luke 21:34-36 (WEB) Jesus warning his disciples until the end comes 34 “So be careful, or your hearts will be loaded down with carousing, drunkenness, and cares of this life, and that day will come on you suddenly. 35 For it will come like a snare on all those who dwell on the surface of all the earth. 36 Therefore be watchful all the time, praying that you may be counted worthy to escape all these things that will happen, and to stand before the Son of Man.”

After this age of grace is the judgment. There are no more chances. That is why only a few are saved.

Hebrews 9:27 It is appointed unto men once to die, but after that the judgment

Luke 13:23-29 (WEB) 23 “Lord, are they few who are saved?” He said to them, 24 “Strive to enter in by the narrow door, for many, I tell you, will seek to enter in and will not be able. 25 Once the master of the house gets up and shuts the door, you will stand outside and knock on the door, saying, ‘Lord, open the door for us.’ He will reply, ‘I don’t know you or where you are from.’ 26 Then you will reply, ‘We ate and drank in your presence, and you taught in our streets.’ 27 He will respond, ‘I don’t know you or where you are from. Go away from me all you evildoers!’ 28 There will be weeping and gnashing of teeth when you see Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, and all the prophets in God’s kingdom, but you yourselves will be thrown outside. 29 People will come from east and west, north and south, and sit down to eat in God’s kingdom.

Once the Master shuts the door, that is it - no more chances. Only God's wrath awaits those who lived in iniquity.

Can you understand why the warnings of Lord Jesus are serious for us now, in this life, before the Judgment?

Believers are resurrected to Eternal Life, and unbelievers are resurrected to Eternal Punishment.

Matthew 25:45-46 (WEB) 46 These will go away into eternal [aiōnion: adjective, accusative feminine singular] punishment, but the righteous into eternal [aiōnion: adjective, accusative feminine singular] life.”

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I see you don't understand the ages of God, it has nothing to do with the pagan idea of reincarnation.
If you would look into the Greek word aion it means age and God uses the ages to work out his plan for the cosmos.
Adam to Noah was an age, God worked with them in that age different than the next. Noah
Noah to Abraham was an age they were under another set of instructions.
Abraham to Moses till Jesus the age of law was different yet again. ( progressive revelation)
Jesus first coming till the second coming the age of grace, our current age.
Next to come is the millennium when Jesus will rule on earth from Jerusalem for 1000 years.
After that there are still ages to come, but God has not told us much, just that there will be a new heaven and earth, and the old will pass away and behold ALL THINGS WILL BE NEW.
Until you understand the ages the mystery of the Gospel will remain just that a mystery, some still think like the Jews of old who missed and did not know God and will remain in the idea of , us and them, who is in and who is out, and all will scurry around like mice mice finding cheese nuggets and not understanding the very one who made them and the cheese.