Could the Pope be arrested if He tries to re-enter the USA?

Hans Blaster · May 25, 2025

Richard T said:
Revoking a citizenship occurs in only two ways that I know of. You renounce it, (usually to avoid USA taxes) or you serve in a policy capacity of a foreign nation. So this very rarely applies.

I support ratification of this pending amendment:

If any citizen of the United States shall accept, claim, receive or retain, any title of nobility or honour, or shall, without the consent of Congress, accept and retain any present, pension, office or emolument of any kind whatever, from any emperor, king, prince or foreign power, such person shall cease to be a citizen of the United States, and shall be incapable of holding any office of trust or profit under them, or either of them.

Twelve ratifications down, 25 to go:

Titles of Nobility Amendment - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Richard T · May 26, 2025

JSRG said:
Where does the Constitution revoke citizenship for those who work on policy matters for a foreign government?

"(a) The United States Constitution (Article I, section 9, clause 8) prohibits the acceptance of civil employment with a foreign government by an officer of the United States without the consent of Congress." What occurs when consent is not requested is not know to me. Other law though may apply

"7 FAM 1285 WHAT IS A POLICY-LEVEL POSITION WITH A FOREIGN STATE?

(CT:CON-948; 11-09-2022)

a. Except in a head-of-state or foreign-minister case, we will not typically consider employment in a policy-level position to lead to loss of nationality if the individual says that they did not intend to lose nationality. Each policy-level position case, however, is fully evaluated on a case-by-case basis.

b. Holding a head-of-state, head-of-government, or foreign-minister position may be incompatible with maintaining U.S. citizenship, although the issue has not been expressly decided by the Department. Under international law, as applied in the United States, a foreign head of state, head of government, or a foreign minister (who is not a local national) enjoys absolute immunity from the criminal, civil and administrative jurisdiction of U.S. law, a status that some believe to be inconsistent with continued allegiance to the United States. However others have expressed a contrary view. There is also an issue as to whether this absolute immunity typically enjoyed by a foreign head of state or head of government would extend to a U.S. citizen or would instead be reduced to a more limited immunity such as “official acts” immunity, as the United States does not surrender jurisdiction over its own nationals. A third factor is whether the authorities of the office would be inherently incompatible with U.S. allegiance. Additional considerations would be whether other conduct of the individual is consistent with retention of U.S. citizenship such as whether the individual continued to travel to and from the United States on a U.S. passport and continued to pay U.S. taxes, and similar indicia of intent. The possible expatriation of a head of state is a complex issue that would need to be coordinated with the Office of the Legal Adviser, including the Office of Legal Adviser for Consular Affairs (L/CA) and the Assistant Legal Adviser for Diplomatic Law (L/DL). Please refer all head-of-state and head-of-government cases to L/CA because, as noted, sensitive questions regarding the scope of immunity, its applicability to a U.S. citizen, possible waiver of immunity, authorities of the office, and expatriation, arise." 7 FAM 1280 LOSS OF NATIONALITY AND TAKING UP A POSITION IN A FOREIGN GOVERNMENT

JSRG · May 26, 2025

Richard T said:
"(a) The United States Constitution (Article I, section 9, clause 8) prohibits the acceptance of civil employment with a foreign government by an officer of the United States without the consent of Congress." What occurs when consent is not requested is not know to me. Other law though may apply

Your claim was:
"No the constitution revoked citizenship to those who work on policy matters for a foreign government."

I asked where the Constitution said that, and the above was your answer. Now, the above thing you quote is not what the Constitution actually says, but a paraphrase. The differences between the paraphrase and the actual text doesn't actually make a different for our purposes, but here's what the Constitution says in what is called the Foreign Emoluments Clause:

"No Title of Nobility shall be granted by the United States: And no Person holding any Office of Profit or Trust under them, shall, without the Consent of the Congress, accept of any present, Emolument, Office, or Title, of any kind whatever, from any King, Prince, or foreign State."

We notice that this restriction applies only to a person "holding any Office of Profit or Trust under them" (your paraphrase renders this as "an officer of the United States"), like a President or people appointed by the President. This is why Qatar's proposed gift of a jet for the use of Air Force One has been controversial, as some have argued this would qualify as a present to President Trump and therefore requires congressional approval. Regardless of whether that's true or not, if Qatar were to offer a random citizen that same plane, there wouldn't be any constitutional issue. This constitutional restriction applies only to certain people in government.

There is an additional problem. Even if not for that restriction, it merely says it is forbidden, and says nothing about revoking citizenship as a punishment.

So the constitution does not revoke citizenship to those who work on policy matters for a foreign government (or someone who otherwise violates the Emoluments Clause). Further, its restriction only applies to select individuals in the United States (those who hold an office of profit or trust under the US), and does not apply to about 99% of the population of the US.

Richard T said:
"7 FAM 1285 WHAT IS A POLICY-LEVEL POSITION WITH A FOREIGN STATE?

(CT:CON-948; 11-09-2022)

a. Except in a head-of-state or foreign-minister case, we will not typically consider employment in a policy-level position to lead to loss of nationality if the individual says that they did not intend to lose nationality. Each policy-level position case, however, is fully evaluated on a case-by-case basis.

b. Holding a head-of-state, head-of-government, or foreign-minister position may be incompatible with maintaining U.S. citizenship, although the issue has not been expressly decided by the Department. Under international law, as applied in the United States, a foreign head of state, head of government, or a foreign minister (who is not a local national) enjoys absolute immunity from the criminal, civil and administrative jurisdiction of U.S. law, a status that some believe to be inconsistent with continued allegiance to the United States. However others have expressed a contrary view. There is also an issue as to whether this absolute immunity typically enjoyed by a foreign head of state or head of government would extend to a U.S. citizen or would instead be reduced to a more limited immunity such as “official acts” immunity, as the United States does not surrender jurisdiction over its own nationals. A third factor is whether the authorities of the office would be inherently incompatible with U.S. allegiance. Additional considerations would be whether other conduct of the individual is consistent with retention of U.S. citizenship such as whether the individual continued to travel to and from the United States on a U.S. passport and continued to pay U.S. taxes, and similar indicia of intent. The possible expatriation of a head of state is a complex issue that would need to be coordinated with the Office of the Legal Adviser, including the Office of Legal Adviser for Consular Affairs (L/CA) and the Assistant Legal Adviser for Diplomatic Law (L/DL). Please refer all head-of-state and head-of-government cases to L/CA because, as noted, sensitive questions regarding the scope of immunity, its applicability to a U.S. citizen, possible waiver of immunity, authorities of the office, and expatriation, arise." 7 FAM 1280 LOSS OF NATIONALITY AND TAKING UP A POSITION IN A FOREIGN GOVERNMENT

This notes that whether citizenship is incompatible is undecided, and in any event none of this is in regards to the Constitution.

Richard T · May 26, 2025

JSRG said:
Your claim was:
"No the constitution revoked citizenship to those who work on policy matters for a foreign government."

I asked where the Constitution said that, and the above was your answer. Now, the above thing you quote is not what the Constitution actually says, but a paraphrase. The differences between the paraphrase and the actual text doesn't actually make a different for our purposes, but here's what the Constitution says in what is called the Foreign Emoluments Clause:

"No Title of Nobility shall be granted by the United States: And no Person holding any Office of Profit or Trust under them, shall, without the Consent of the Congress, accept of any present, Emolument, Office, or Title, of any kind whatever, from any King, Prince, or foreign State."

We notice that this restriction applies only to a person "holding any Office of Profit or Trust under them" (your paraphrase renders this as "an officer of the United States"), like a President or people appointed by the President. This is why Qatar's proposed gift of a jet for the use of Air Force One has been controversial, as some have argued this would qualify as a present to President Trump and therefore requires congressional approval. Regardless of whether that's true or not, if Qatar were to offer a random citizen that same plane, there wouldn't be any constitutional issue. This constitutional restriction applies only to certain people in government.

There is an additional problem. Even if not for that restriction, it merely says it is forbidden, and says nothing about revoking citizenship as a punishment.

So the constitution does not revoke citizenship to those who work on policy matters for a foreign government (or someone who otherwise violates the Emoluments Clause). Further, its restriction only applies to select individuals in the United States (those who hold an office of profit or trust under the US), and does not apply to about 99% of the population of the US.

This notes that whether citizenship is incompatible is undecided, and in any event none of this is in regards to the Constitution.

Yes, you are correct it is not in the U.S. Constitution but rather may instead be found in laws that are not fully interpreted. Thank you for the correction. I will try to fact check myself before using paraphrases in the future.

BCP1928 · May 27, 2025

The thing to do would be for the US to declare war on the Vatican. It would be safe enough, the Vticqn is not a member of NATO or the UN and we wouldn't have to really invade, even, but it would be enough of excuse to cancel the Pope's citizenship.

durangodawood · May 27, 2025

BCP1928 said:
The thing to do would be for the US to declare war on the Vatican. It would be safe enough, the Vticqn is not a member of NATO or the UN and we wouldn't have to really invade, even, but it would be enough of excuse to cancel the Pope's citizenship.

I would not want to face those Swiss Guards on the field of battle.

tampasteve · May 27, 2025

The question is ridiculous on the face of it, what nonsense.

Desk trauma · May 27, 2025

tampasteve said:
The question is ridiculous on the face of it, what nonsense.

We live in ridiculous nonsensical times.

.Mikha'el. · Jun 19, 2025

Richard T said:
Can Pope Leo XIV remain a U.S. citizen now that he's a foreign head of state?

Pope Leo XIV's election as the first U.S.-born leader of the Catholic Church elevated him to the rare position of being an American citizen who now is also a foreign head of state.

abc7.com

Since immigration issues are on the verge of the absurd for some USA visa holders, I bring this issue to really hammer why the letter of the law should not be followed in all citizenship/immigration matters.

This article outlines part of the quandry that the U.S. Constitution outlines for those that work for foreign governments in a policy position. Since the Pope does this as head of state for the Vatican, an indpendent country, it seems he could lose his U.S. citizenship. Thus, technically he could be detained and deported like any other illegal entrant if he tries to re-enter the USA or a U.S. territory that requires a USA visa. This is an interesting legal issue and following the letter of the law could mean he no longer is a USA citizen.

§ 3a.2 Requirement for approval of foreign government employment.

(a) The United States Constitution (Article I, section 9, clause 8) prohibits the acceptance of civil employment with a foreign government by an officer of the United States without the consent of Congress. Congress has consented to the acceptance of civil employment (and compensation therefor) by any person described in § 3a.1(b) subject to the approval of the Secretary concerned and the Secretary of State (37 U.S.C. 801, Note). Civil employment with a foreign government may not be accepted without such approval by any person so described.

Accepting, Serving in, or Performing Duties of a Position with the Government of a Foreign State - Immigration and Nationality Act (INA) Section 349(a)(4)

"A U.S. national’s employment, after attaining the age of 18, with the government of a foreign country or a political subdivision thereof is a potentially expatriating act pursuant to Section 349(a)(4) of the Immigration and Nationality Act if the individual is a citizen of that foreign country or takes an oath of allegiance to that country in connection with such employment. Such employment, however, will result in one's expatriation only if done voluntarily with the intention of relinquishing U.S. citizenship. Running for foreign office, even foreign head of state, is not a potentially expatriating act; only accepting, serving in, or performing the duties of a foreign office are potentially expatriating as described above."

Accepting, Serving in, or Performing Duties of a Position with the Government of a Foreign State - Immigration and Nationality Act (INA) Section 349(a)(4)

A U.S. national’s employment, after attaining the age of 18, with the government of a foreign country or a political subdivision thereof is a potentially expatriating act pursuant to Section 349(a)(4) of the Immigration and Nationality Act if the individual is a citizen of that foreign country...

travel.state.gov

The text says "an officer of the United States". I'm pretty sure every John Q. Citizen out there doesn't qualify as such, otherwise everyone could be guilty of it.

RileyG · Jun 19, 2025

Eh? He will die a Vatican citizen. So I doubt it.

Richard T · Jun 19, 2025

.Mikha'el. said:
The text says "an officer of the United States". I'm pretty sure every John Q. Citizen out there doesn't qualify as such, otherwise everyone could be guilty

Yes in looking at that closer the constitution may not apply though other laws might. Seems like it is a non-issue though he would save taxes if he chose not to be a USA citizen. I think that would seem tacky though for a Pope to do that. I imagine too he likes America anyway and that paying taxes would set a good example.

Pommer · Jun 20, 2025

Desk trauma said:
We live in ridiculous nonsensical times.

And always have!

Could the Pope be arrested if He tries to re-enter the USA?

Hood was a loser.

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