Could the Pope be arrested if He tries to re-enter the USA?

Richard T · Sunday at 6:38 PM

Can Pope Leo XIV remain a U.S. citizen now that he's a foreign head of state?

Pope Leo XIV's election as the first U.S.-born leader of the Catholic Church elevated him to the rare position of being an American citizen who now is also a foreign head of state.

abc7.com

Since immigration issues are on the verge of the absurd for some USA visa holders, I bring this issue to really hammer why the letter of the law should not be followed in all citizenship/immigration matters.

This article outlines part of the quandry that the U.S. Constitution outlines for those that work for foreign governments in a policy position. Since the Pope does this as head of state for the Vatican, an indpendent country, it seems he could lose his U.S. citizenship. Thus, technically he could be detained and deported like any other illegal entrant if he tries to re-enter the USA or a U.S. territory that requires a USA visa. This is an interesting legal issue and following the letter of the law could mean he no longer is a USA citizen.

§ 3a.2 Requirement for approval of foreign government employment.

(a) The United States Constitution (Article I, section 9, clause 8) prohibits the acceptance of civil employment with a foreign government by an officer of the United States without the consent of Congress. Congress has consented to the acceptance of civil employment (and compensation therefor) by any person described in § 3a.1(b) subject to the approval of the Secretary concerned and the Secretary of State (37 U.S.C. 801, Note). Civil employment with a foreign government may not be accepted without such approval by any person so described.

Accepting, Serving in, or Performing Duties of a Position with the Government of a Foreign State - Immigration and Nationality Act (INA) Section 349(a)(4)

"A U.S. national’s employment, after attaining the age of 18, with the government of a foreign country or a political subdivision thereof is a potentially expatriating act pursuant to Section 349(a)(4) of the Immigration and Nationality Act if the individual is a citizen of that foreign country or takes an oath of allegiance to that country in connection with such employment. Such employment, however, will result in one's expatriation only if done voluntarily with the intention of relinquishing U.S. citizenship. Running for foreign office, even foreign head of state, is not a potentially expatriating act; only accepting, serving in, or performing the duties of a foreign office are potentially expatriating as described above."

Accepting, Serving in, or Performing Duties of a Position with the Government of a Foreign State - Immigration and Nationality Act (INA) Section 349(a)(4)

A U.S. national’s employment, after attaining the age of 18, with the government of a foreign country or a political subdivision thereof is a potentially expatriating act pursuant to Section 349(a)(4) of the Immigration and Nationality Act if the individual is a citizen of that foreign country...

travel.state.gov

Hazelelponi · Sunday at 6:47 PM

The Pope won't lose citizenship, he'll likely keep dual citizenship with Rome, which he probably already has since he's spent more of his life outside the country than in it to begin with.

But the US government is not going to revoke the Popes citizenship, but he doesn't speak for any aspect of American life or America when he speaks, he speaks only on behalf of Rome and her followers.

Pretty sure everyone knows that, he has never had government authority or position here.

BCP1928 · Sunday at 6:51 PM

Hazelelponi said:
The Pope won't lose citizenship, he'll likely keep dual citizenship with Rome, which he probably already has since he's spent more of his life outside the country than in it to begin with.

But the US government is not going to revoke the Popes citizenship, but he doesn't speak for any aspect of American life or America when he speaks, he speaks only on behalf of Rome and her followers.

Pretty sure everyone knows that, he has never had government authority here.

"Her followers" includes quite a number of US citizens.

Hazelelponi · Sunday at 6:52 PM

BCP1928 said:
"Her followers" includes quite a number of US citizens.

Still a Protestant country. Protestant government order.

BCP1928 · Sunday at 6:55 PM

Hazelelponi said:
Still a Protestant country. Protestant government order.

The Government is secular. Are you denying full citizenship to Roman Catholics?

JSRG · Sunday at 7:00 PM

Richard T said:
§ 3a.2 Requirement for approval of foreign government employment.

(a) The United States Constitution (Article I, section 9, clause 8) prohibits the acceptance of civil employment with a foreign government by an officer of the United States without the consent of Congress. Congress has consented to the acceptance of civil employment (and compensation therefor) by any person described in § 3a.1(b) subject to the approval of the Secretary concerned and the Secretary of State (37 U.S.C. 801, Note). Civil employment with a foreign government may not be accepted without such approval by any person so described.

This prohibits the acceptance of civil employment with a foreign government by an officer of the United States. Leo XIV is not (and I do not believe ever was) an officer of the United States, so this does not apply to him.

Richard T said:
Accepting, Serving in, or Performing Duties of a Position with the Government of a Foreign State - Immigration and Nationality Act (INA) Section 349(a)(4)

"A U.S. national’s employment, after attaining the age of 18, with the government of a foreign country or a political subdivision thereof is a potentially expatriating act pursuant to Section 349(a)(4) of the Immigration and Nationality Act if the individual is a citizen of that foreign country or takes an oath of allegiance to that country in connection with such employment. Such employment, however, will result in one's expatriation only if done voluntarily with the intention of relinquishing U.S. citizenship. Running for foreign office, even foreign head of state, is not a potentially expatriating act; only accepting, serving in, or performing the duties of a foreign office are potentially expatriating as described above."

Accepting, Serving in, or Performing Duties of a Position with the Government of a Foreign State - Immigration and Nationality Act (INA) Section 349(a)(4)

A U.S. national’s employment, after attaining the age of 18, with the government of a foreign country or a political subdivision thereof is a potentially expatriating act pursuant to Section 349(a)(4) of the Immigration and Nationality Act if the individual is a citizen of that foreign country...

travel.state.gov

This one does refer to all US nationals, but says it says it only results in expatriation if done with the intention of relinquishing U.S. citizenship, which as far as I am aware is not the case.

Unless he was trying to cancel his citizenship, it looks like he doesn't lose it.

Richard T · Sunday at 7:00 PM

Hazelelponi said:
The Pope won't lose citizenship I don't believe, he'll likely keep dual citizenship with Rome, which he probably already has since he's spent more of his life outside the country than in it to begin with.

But the US government is not going to revoke the Popes citizenship, but he doesn't speak for any aspect of American life or America when he speaks, he speaks only on behalf of Rome and her followers.

Already the Pope opposes some US policy matters. (Some I agree with too) It is exactly because of this conflict that the Constitution addresses the revocation of citizenship from US citizens that serve a foreign nation. The framers just never considered that such an official may also be the religious leader of hundreds of millions worldwide. Now we can ignore this and it seems how it stands right now. However, what if the Pope really speaks up for US illegals? or something else that irritates Trump? This restriction on a Pope to me suggests he should give up his citizenship, because he speaks for heaven and should not potentially be bullied by the Trump administration.

Aryeh Jay · Sunday at 7:06 PM

BCP1928 said:
The Government is secular. Are you denying full citizenship to Roman Catholics?

I would also include Jehovas Witnesses, Mormons, Muslims, Jews, and other not so quite correct religions.

Richard T · Sunday at 7:06 PM

BCP1928 said:
The Government is secular. Are you denying full citizenship to Roman Catholics?

No the constitution revoked citizenship to those who work on policy matters for a foreign government. The Vatican is a foreign government. It is possible he could get a waiver, but it seems ridiculous to bow to the USA for permission.

bèlla · Sunday at 7:09 PM

I’ve always felt Trump’s imagery as the pope was his way of making his preferences known. From his perspective having someone in the vatican extends our influence. I don’t think he’ll revoke it.

~bella

Richard T · Sunday at 7:10 PM

The Requirement set forth in the U.S. Constitution is not about religion. It is only about US citizens that serve foreign governments. The Pope does that, as the Vatican is a government as well as the church headquarters. The same rules apply to any US citizen regardless of religion

jacks · Sunday at 7:12 PM

Lock him up. No ones above the law!

Richard T · Sunday at 7:13 PM

bèlla said:
I’ve always felt Trump’s imagery as the pope was his way of making his preferences known. From his perspective having someone in the vatican extends our influence. I don’t think he’ll revoke it.

~bella

Politically it would be suicide, so I think you are right. But it is hypocritical and unconstitutional if the Trump administration does not require a waiver from Congress. I don't think the Pope should bow to that requirement though, it is too secular.

bèlla · Sunday at 7:13 PM

BCP1928 said:
The Government is secular. Are you denying full citizenship to Roman Catholics?

It’s a trope promoted by some christian networks (TBN & CBN) along with other untruths about our country and foreign affairs. It’s widely embraced in certain circles and parroted on the internet. Several elements have been soundly debunked on the site and your statement is true.

~bella

bèlla · Sunday at 7:16 PM

Richard T said:
Ok, but will retaining citizenship limit the Pope in the criticism that he might give to the Trump administration? I ask because if push comes to shove, could Trump revoke his citizenship if he speaks up for illegals or other issues that Trump opposes? I think so.

Disagreement may ruffle his feathers ego wise but he has to keep the larger picture in mind. They’re not at odds. It’s a coalition. ;-)

~bella

Richard T · Sunday at 7:19 PM

Aryeh Jay said:
I would also include Jehovas Witnesses, Mormons, Muslims, Jews, and other not so quite correct religions.

Revoking a citizenship occurs in only two ways that I know of. You renounce it, (usually to avoid USA taxes) or you serve in a policy capacity of a foreign nation. So this very rarely applies.

Richard T · Sunday at 7:28 PM

bèlla said:
Disagreement may ruffle his feathers ego wise but he has to keep the larger picture in mind. They’re not at odds. It’s a coalition. ;-)

~bella

Not at odds now but perhaps it is scheduled for the future? Could it be the coalition's intention if to make Trump the fall guy, perhaps after his crypto desires become law? BTW I was surprised to see the stable coins potentially becoming the largest holders of US Treasuries, as some suggest they will surpass China.

Richard T · Sunday at 7:33 PM

Hazelelponi said:
The Pope won't lose citizenship, he'll likely keep dual citizenship with Rome, which he probably already has since he's spent more of his life outside the country than in it to begin with.

But the US government is not going to revoke the Popes citizenship, but he doesn't speak for any aspect of American life or America when he speaks, he speaks only on behalf of Rome and her followers.

Pretty sure everyone knows that, he has never had government authority or position here.

This Pope is also a citizen of Peru where he served for some time. It is permissible to have multiple citizenships. It is the policy work for a foriegn government the issue.

bèlla · Sunday at 7:40 PM

Richard T said:
Not at odds now but perhaps it is scheduled for the future? Could it be the coalition's intention if to make Trump the fall guy, perhaps after his crypto desires become law? BTW I was surprised to see the stable coins potentially becoming the largest holders of US Treasuries, as some suggest they will surpass China.

We should do a thread on the pope in the other forum. That’s probably a better place to expound on the subject.

As for your question, the crypto plan isn’t his and he doesn’t understand the technology and relies on others for that. The alliance he shares with those around him (including Elon) is related to technocracy and its spoils. We’re presented an image of opposition in the media and few recognize our progression towards the end they have in mind because of political bias or blindness. Either or thinking is the norm. There‘s no middle ground.

~bella

JSRG · Sunday at 9:03 PM

Richard T said:
No the constitution revoked citizenship to those who work on policy matters for a foreign government. The Vatican is a foreign government. It is possible he could get a waiver, but it seems ridiculous to bow to the USA for permission.

Where does the Constitution revoke citizenship for those who work on policy matters for a foreign government?

Could the Pope be arrested if He tries to re-enter the USA?

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