Jeff Saunders
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CF has always been a site that welcomes people from different backgrounds and beliefs to participate in discussion and even debate. That is the nature of its ministry. In view of recent events emotions are running very high. We need to remind people of some basic principles in debating on this site. We need to be civil when we express differences in opinion. No personal attacks. Avoid you, your statements. Don't characterize an entire political party with comparisons to Fascism or Communism or other extreme movements that committed atrocities. CF is not the place for broad brush or blanket statements about groups and political parties. Put the broad brushes and blankets away when you come to CF, better yet, put them in the incinerator. Debate had no place for them. We need to remember that people that commit acts of violence represent themselves or a small extreme faction.
Jeff Saunders
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The big question is what is "hell" for? Is it a place for refinement and correction that lasts till its work is completed when all that is not of God is destroyed, or is a torcher chamber that God has to keep people alive and burning for all eternity.
Your view of God will often reflect on what side you come down on.
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Mercy Shown
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Perhaps your premise is flawed. Maybe Jesus had it right when he talked about both the body and the soul being destroyed in hell. After all wouldn’t He be the one to know?
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Firstly, God is righteous, and God is love. Therefore, God's righteousness condemns all sinners forever. God's Love is upon sinners to repent and put their faith in Lord Jesus to be saved (John 3:14-16; Romans 1:16-17).
If the sinner refuses God's grace so he may continue in sin, then God's wrath remains on them.
John 3:36 (WEB) One who believes in the Son has eternal life, but one who disobeys the Son won’t see life, but the wrath of God remains on him.
"Hell" is just one of many illustrative names given to that "Place" in which the unredeemed are cast into - not a place of correction, but of eternal separation from God outside of His presence and all His blessings that God bestows only on those who remain faithful now in this lifetime.
Revelation 22:14-15 (WEB) 14 Blessed are those who do his commandments, that they may have the right to the Tree of Life, and may enter in by the gates into the city. 15 Outside are the dogs, the sorcerers, the sexually immoral, the murderers, the idolaters, and everyone who loves and practices falsehood.
Luke 13:28-29 (WEB) 28 There will be [future] weeping and gnashing of teeth when you see Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, and all the prophets in God’s Kingdom, and yourselves being thrown outside. 29 They will come from the east, west, north, and south, and will sit down in God’s Kingdom.”
Matthew 22:13 Then the king said to the servants, ‘Bind him hand and foot, take him away, and throw him into the outer darkness. That is where the weeping and grinding of teeth will be [future place].
Matthew 25:30 (WEB) Throw out the unprofitable servant into the outer darkness, where [in that place] there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.’
Matthew 8:11-12 (WEB) 11 I tell you that many will come from the east and the west, and will sit down with Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob in the Kingdom of Heaven, 12 but the children of the Kingdom will be thrown outside into the outer darkness. There [in that place] will be [future] weeping and gnashing of teeth.
Jude 1:13 (NIV) 13 They are wild waves of the sea, foaming up their shame; wandering stars, for whom blackest darkness has been reserved forever.
There will be a resurrection of the just and the unjust. The unjust are the unredeemed; and they will be judged, each one of them, according to their works.
John 5:28-29 (WEB) 28 Don’t marvel at this, for the hour comes in which all who are in the tombs will hear his voice, 29 and will come out; those who have done good, to the resurrection of life; and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of judgment.
Acts 24:14 I believe all things which are in the law and in the prophets; 15 having hope toward God, which these also themselves look for, that there will be a resurrection of the dead, both of the just and unjust.
Daniel 12:2 (WEB) 2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.
Matthew 25:45-46 (WEB) 45 “Then he will answer them, saying, ‘Most certainly I tell you, because you didn’t do it to one of the least of these, you didn’t do it to me.’ 46 These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”
“Rev 14:9-14” and “Rev 20:10” use similar language; in that, the wicked will suffer the same torment “day and night” “forever and ever” with “the beast” and the “false prophet” in the lake of fire.
Revelation 14:9-11 (WEB) 9 Another angel, a third, followed them, saying with a great voice, “If anyone worships the beast and his image, and receives a mark on his forehead, or on his hand, 10 he also will drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is prepared unmixed in the cup of his anger. He will be tormented with fire and sulfur in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb. 11 The smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever. They have no rest day and night, those who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name.
Revelation 20:10 (WEB) 10 The devil who deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet are also. They will be tormented day and night forever and ever.
The descriptions given of the “second death” appear to describe a conscious torment, day and night, and is forever.
After this life of grace, if you do not repent and put your faith in Lord Jesus, following Him into a sanctified life of righteousness and love, then, after this life is over, there is no more grace, only judgment.
John 3:36 (WEB) One who believes in the Son has eternal life, but one who disobeys the Son won’t see life, but the wrath of God remains on him.
Hebrews 9:27 (KJV) 27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment
Revelation 21:8 (WEB) But for the cowardly, unbelieving, sinners, abominable, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars, their part is in the Lake that burns with fire and sulfur, which is the second death.”
Revelation 22:15 (WEB) 15 Outside are the dogs, the sorcerers, the sexually immoral, the murderers, the idolaters, and everyone who loves and practices falsehood.
The "second death" is forever, and is a place "Outside" the kingdom of God.
Luke 13:28-29 (WEB) 28 There will be [future] weeping and gnashing of teeth when you see Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, and all the prophets in God’s Kingdom, and yourselves being thrown outside. 29 They will come from the east, west, north, and south, and will sit down in God’s Kingdom.”
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'Hell' is a word that was added (interpolated) to our Bibles and is not a translation of the original language. When we see this word in scripture its true meaning is 'the grave' or 'the pit' in the Old Testament.
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Jeff Saunders
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This is my understanding about God.
Scripture says God is Love, Life, and Light in whom there is no darkness.
These are Gods nature and character, hid essence, God only works within these three natures.
Love is the nature or essence that all work out of, God can do nothing that is not out of Love, righteousness, wrath, justice,mercy, compassion, and anything else that God does are only worked out of his Love.
John 3:36 If you are following Jesus you move from death to life but if you remain unreconciled you remain under Gods wrath but Gods wrath is his Love destroying all that is not of him in you, hid wrath is not against people but the very thing that is destroying the object of his Love, People.
God burning people for all eternity is below God, scripture is very clear God knows the beginning from the end, He would not create people whom he loves and then torture them for all eternity because they misunderstood or never even knew who he was. That is what a pagan god would do not the loving Father. God loves us so much that in Jesus, he entered into our delusion and lived and was killed so we could be reconciled. 2 Cor 5:19 " in Christ God was reconciling the world to himself, not counting peoples trespasses against them, and he had given us the message of reconciliation.
Matt 25:46 these go away into eternal punishment,( Greek aionios kolasis) this is mistranslated in English , aionios is of the age or age enduring, and kolasis is a gardening term used to prune trees or vines to make them produce more fruit, the bad is cut off so as to allow more fruit. No eternal punishment.
If you believe that Adams sin is more powerful than Jesus death and resurrection then you have been sold a bill of goods from the enemy and need to understand the Father that Jesus taught.
lov
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Jeff Saunders
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No! Gods punishment is for correction unto salvation. God has told us his will 1 Tim 2:3-6 its Gods will that all come to salvation and the knowledge of the truth.
Malachi 3:2 But who can endure the day of his coming,and who can stand when he appears? For he is like a refiners fire and like fullers soap.
Hosea 5:15 Then I will return again to my lair until they have suffered their punishment. Then they will seek me; in their distress they will earnestly seek me.
Isa 48:10 refined, purified in the furnace of misery .
Lamentations 3:31-33 For the Lord will not reject us forever, though he causes grief, he then has compassion on us according to the abundance of his loyal kindness, for his is not predisposed to afflict or to grieve people.
These verses show the heart of the Father, he loves all his creation, John 12:47 Jesus came to save the cosmos not to judge it. Jesus did not fail in his mission, he will get 100% of what he paid for!
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JesusFollowerForever
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This is a deep and serious question, Many people struggle with the idea that most of humanity may not be saved. Jesus Himself said something that makes people stop and think:
“Enter by the narrow gate; for wide is the gate and broad is the way that leads to destruction, and there are many who go in by it. Because narrow is the gate and difficult is the way which leads to life, and there are few who find it.”
— Matthew 7:13–14
Jesus is clear—the way to life is narrow, and few find it. But He never said it was because God wanted it to be that way. He showed us in His teachings why so many are lost. One time, He told a story about a man planting seeds. The seed is the word of God. But not all ground was good:
“The seed is the word of God… The ones on the path are those who hear; then the devil comes and takes away the word… The ones on the rock are those who hear and receive the word with joy; but they have no root… The seed among thorns stands for those who hear, but go out and are choked by life's worries, riches and pleasures… But the good soil stands for those with a noble and good heart, who hear the word, keep it, and bear fruit.”
— Luke 8:11–15 (paraphrased)
This shows us that the same message goes to many, but only some keep it and live by it. It’s not that God sets people up to fail—it’s that many people let the world, the devil, or their own desires take over their hearts. Still, Jesus never gave up calling them.
He told us that God doesn’t want anyone to be lost:
“It is not the will of your Father who is in heaven that one of these little ones should perish.”
— Matthew 18:14
And:
“God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.”
— John 3:16
Jesus came not to destroy but to save:
“The Son of Man did not come to destroy men’s lives but to save them.”
— Luke 9:56
So if most are lost, it’s not because God didn’t care. He sent His Son, He gave His word, He warned people, and He gave time. In fact, Jesus explained why God lets this world continue, even when it’s full of evil. In a parable, He said:
“Let both grow together until the harvest... The harvest is the end of the age.”
— Matthew 13:30, 39
God lets the good and the evil grow together for now, because to destroy the evil early might hurt the good too. He is waiting for the right time, and this shows patience, not cruelty.
Still, Jesus warned of judgment:
“These shall go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”
— Matthew 25:46
And He also said:
“How often I wanted to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing!”
— Matthew 23:37
This shows that people reject God’s mercy. Jesus is not glad to condemn anyone. He cried over Jerusalem because they didn’t want to come to Him.
When people say God only cares about His glory and not about us, they are missing what Jesus showed. He said:
“Whoever desires to become great among you, let him be your servant... just as the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give His life a ransom for many.”
— Matthew 20:26–28
God’s glory is shown through His love. Jesus served others. He healed the sick, forgave sinners, and even washed His disciples’ feet. That is not a God who enjoys people’s pain. That is a God who lowers Himself to save them.
So what about those who say it’s impossible to be saved, that the system is rigged against us? Jesus said the opposite:
“Ask, and it will be given to you; seek, and you will find; knock, and it will be opened to you.”
— Matthew 7:7
Even the thief on the cross found mercy in his final hours because he turned to Jesus. That shows the door is always open for those who seek God with a true heart. No one is too far gone.
Yes, the way is narrow. But Jesus walks that road with us. He never said “only perfect people will make it.” He said:
“Fear not, little flock, for it is your Father’s good pleasure to give you the kingdom.”
— Luke 12:32
God’s heart is to save. He gives every person a chance. But He will not force anyone. He gave us freedom, and sadly, many use it to turn away. But the ones who choose life, even if they are few, will find a faithful and loving God waiting for them.
God did not make a world so 99.9% would fail. He made a way so that anyone who believes, follows, and loves truth can live forever. The question is not whether He did enough. The question is—will we accept His invitation?
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Hi Beth77,
Hell is just one of many illustrated names given to that "Place" that the unredeemed are cast into after the Judgment.
Other illustrative names given to that "Place" are: The Second Death, Outer Darkness, Furnace of Fire, Lake of Fire, Outside, Unquenchable Fire, and Gehenna.
"Outer darkness" and "Lake of Fire" illustrate different things about that "Place;" in that, "Outer Darkness" represents eternal separation from God and all that is righteous and good, while "Lake of Fire," and similar terms, represents that this "Place" is not fun or enjoyable; rather that "Place" is where one will feel regret, bitterness, and the weight of his sins for all eternity.
Luke 13:28-29 (WEB) 28 There will be [future] weeping and gnashing of teeth when you see Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, and all the prophets in God’s Kingdom, and yourselves being thrown outside. 29 They will come from the east, west, north, and south, and will sit down in God’s Kingdom.”
Matthew 22:13 Then the king said to the servants, ‘Bind him hand and foot, take him away, and throw him into the outer darkness.
That is where the weeping and grinding of teeth will be [future place].
Matthew 25:30 (WEB) Throw out the unprofitable servant into the outer darkness, where [in that place] there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.’
Matthew 8:11-12 (WEB) 11 I tell you that many will come from the east and the west, and will sit down with Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob in the Kingdom of Heaven, 12 but the children of the Kingdom will be thrown outside into the outer darkness. There [in that place] will be [future] weeping and gnashing of teeth.
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The time of grace is now, before you die. After death the unredeemed will await the Resurrection onto Judgment.
John 5:28-29 (WEB) 28 Don’t marvel at this, for the hour comes in which all who are in the tombs will hear his voice, 29 and will come out; those who have done good, to the resurrection of life; and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of judgment.
Acts 24:14 I believe all things which are in the law and in the prophets; 15 having hope toward God, which these also themselves look for, that there will be a resurrection of the dead, both of the just and unjust.
Daniel 12:2 (WEB) 2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting (‘ō-w-lām) life, and some to shame and everlasting (‘ō-w-lām) contempt.
Matthew 25:45-46 (WEB) 45 “Then he will answer them, saying, ‘Most certainly I tell you, because you didn’t do it to one of the least of these, you didn’t do it to me.’ 46 These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”
At the judgment the unredeemed will be judged according to their works.
Hebrews 9:27 It is appointed unto men once to die, but after that the judgment
Romans 2:5-11 ... 5 But according to your hardness and unrepentant heart you are storing wrath for yourself in the day of wrath, revelation, and the righteous judgment of God; 6 who “will pay back to everyone according to their works:” [Psalm 62:12; Proverbs 24:12] 7 to those who by perseverance in well-doing seek for glory, honor, and incorruptibility, eternal life; 8 but to those who are self-seeking, and don’t obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, will be wrath, indignation, 9 oppression, and anguish on every soul of man who does evil, 10 But glory, honor, and peace go to every one doing good – first to the Jew and also to the Greek. 11 For God shows no partiality.
Therefore, there are degrees of punishment or torment depending on the deeds of the unredeemed, according to their works, while they lived on earth.
Hebrews 10:29 29 How much worse punishment do you think he will be judged worthy
Jude 1:13 (NIV) 13 They are wild waves of the sea, foaming up their shame; wandering stars, for whom blackest darkness has been reserved forever.
God will indeed execute his wrath upon the unredeemed, for God is also a God of judgment, wrath, and vengeance.
Ephesians 2:3 (WEB) We also all once lived among them in the lusts of our flesh, doing the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, even as the rest.
Romans 1:18 (WEB) For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men who suppress the truth in unrighteousness
Romans 2:5 (WEB) But according to your hardness and unrepentant heart you are treasuring up for yourself wrath in the day of wrath, revelation, and of the righteous judgment of God
Interesting and amazing that you quote my post with the 17 Passages I gave describing God's wrath and the "Place" that the unredeemed are cast into; yet, you reject them.
Ephesians 5:6 (WEB) Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of these things the wrath of God comes on the children of disobedience.
God is not only Love, but God is also a Consuming Fire and of Wrath and Vengeance, according to the Scriptures.
Hebrews 12:28-29 (WEB) 28 Therefore, receiving a Kingdom that can’t be shaken, let’s have grace, through which we serve God acceptably, with reverence and awe, 29 for our God is a consuming fire.
Hebrews 10:28-31 (WEB) 28 A man who disregards Moses’ law dies without compassion on the word of two or three witnesses. 29 How much worse punishment do you think he will be judged worthy of who has trodden underfoot the Son of God, and has counted the blood of the covenant with which he was sanctified an unholy thing, and has insulted the Spirit of grace? 30 For we know him who said, “Vengeance belongs to me. I will repay,” says the Lord. Again, “The Lord will judge his people.” 31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.
You write:
Matt 25:46 these go away into eternal punishment,( Greek aionios kolasis) this is mistranslated in English , aionios is of the age or age enduring, and kolasis is a gardening term used to prune trees or vines to make them produce more fruit, the bad is cut off so as to allow more fruit. No eternal punishment.
setst777 RE:
The actual Greek meaning of "kolasin" is "punishment."
Cognate: 2851 kólasis (from kolaphos, "a buffeting, a blow") – properly, punishment that "fits" (matches) the one punished (R. Trench); torment from living in the dread of upcoming judgment from shirking one's duty (cf. WS at 1 Jn 4:18)
The actual Greek meaning of "aiónios" is "perpetual."
"Perpetual" is everlasting unless the context states a time limit to "perpetual." No passage of Scripture gives a time limit to perpetual punishment of the unredeemed resurrected souls, just as there is no limit to "perpetual" life (Eternal Life) for the redeemed souls who are resurrected.
Therefore, perpetual goes on without end, which means: forever, everlasting, or eternal, because no limit of time is given.
None of your human wisdom can change what God's Word reveals, even though you may deceive many who are naive, or who have itching ears.
Ephesians 5:6 (WEB) Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of these things the wrath of God comes on the children of disobedience.
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Beth, that should be a red flag for you and a warning if no Christian denomination teaches Jeff's doctrine.
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The Scriptures do not say that God is the Lake of Fire, but the Scriptures do say that God IS a Consuming Fire.
Hebrews 12:28-29 ... let’s have grace, through which we serve God acceptably, with reverence and awe, 29 for our God is a consuming fire.
Do you believe the Scriptures?
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Beth, I will not quibble with your vague responses; as if the Bible agrees with Jeff, while at the same time, you will not consider the Passages actually given, and of which you responded to.
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No Christian disagrees that God desires all people to be saved.
However, God will only save those who will believe.
1 Corinthians 1:21 ‘Human wisdom leads to unbelief, but God’s good pleasure is to save those who believe through the foolishness of the Gospel preaching.’
And the Scriptures teach us that many refuse God's gracious invitation to salvation; and so, they remain under God's wrath - which is most of humanity.
Matthew 22:3 He sent his servants to those who were invited [called] to the banquet to ask them to come, but they refused.
John 3:18 (WEB) He who doesn’t believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
John 3:36 (WEB) One who believes in the Son has eternal life, but one who disobeys the Son won’t see life, but the wrath of God remains on him.
Acts 7:51 You who are stiff-necked and uncircumcised in heart and ears are always resisting the Holy Spirit.
2 Thessalonians 2:10 (NIV) They perish because they refused to love the truth and so be saved.
Romans 10:21 All day long I stretched out my hands to a disobedient and obstinate people.
Romans 2:5 (WEB) 5 But according to your hardness and unrepentant heart you are treasuring up for yourself wrath in the day of wrath, revelation, and of the righteous judgment of God
You have seen all these Scriptures before, but somehow you cannot accept them, even though they are God's words.
There are no Scriptures that teach, state, or imply that God will save everyone; rather, the entire context of Scripture teaches us that God promises to save whosoever will believe, just as Abraham believed. That is what the Scriptures teach throughout, even though some will use isolated Scripture quotes that, by themselves, are ambiguous; in that, the people will place their own doctrine into quotes that are vague by themselves.
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