Believe Jesus' testimony and certify God is true

fli · May 1, 2025

John 3:33 He who has received His (Jesus') testimony has certified that God is true. NKJV

John the Baptist prophesied that the people who received the testimony of Jesus have certified that God is true. God promised in the garden that He would provide a covering for man's sins. Satan accused God of not wanting man to be like Him. The work of Jesus proves Satan wrong and proves God loves the world.

Just what is the testimony of Jesus?

John 3:14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up, 15 that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have eternal life. 16 For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. NKJV

John 3:18 "He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. NKJV

John 5:24 "Most assuredly, I say to you, he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life. NKJV

John 6:29 Jesus answered and said to them, "This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He sent." NKJV

I could have cited a few more red-letter scriptures saying the same thing as those above. I have one more below.

John 10: 24 Then the Jews surrounded Him and said to Him, "How long do You keep us in doubt? If You are the Christ, tell us plainly." 25 Jesus answered them, "I told you, and you do not believe. (All the previous scriptures) The works that I do in My Father's name, they bear witness of Me. 26 But you do not believe, because you are not of My sheep, as I said to you. 27 My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me." NKJV

The prevalent Gospel message of most churches is: Repent of your sins and believe in Jesus and you will be saved.

God says salvation is a free gift, Jesus provided everything people need for salvation, all people have to do is believe.

Is there anything needed for salvation that God has not provided?

Matthew 3: 14b saying, "I need to be baptized by You, and are You coming to me?" 15 But Jesus answered and said to him, "Permit it to be so now, for thus it is fitting for us to fulfill all righteousness." Then he allowed Him. NKJV

You probably will say repentance is necessary to be righteous and without righteousness no one gets into heaven.

Acts 5:31 Him God has exalted to His right hand to be Prince and Savior, to give repentance to Israel and forgiveness of sins. NKJV

Acts 11:18 When they heard these things they became silent; and they glorified God, saying, "Then God has also granted to the Gentiles repentance to life."
NKJV

If the church trusts God to forgive sins, why do they not trust God to give repentance? Can the church have faith in Jesus and not trust that His repentance for our sins is more complete than our futile attempt. God knows more about man and how to get rid of his sins than the church or man does. The church should trust in God's repentance.

A man can go all the way to the point where he has eternal life without repenting or doing works. After reaching the point of eternal life the person is a son of God. Then God expects the person to act like a son of God, repent of bad behavior, and do great works.

Acts 3:19 Repent therefore and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, so that times of refreshing may come from the presence of the Lord, 20 and that He may send Jesus Christ, who was preached to you before, 21 whom heaven must receive until the times of restoration of all things, which God has spoken by the mouth of all His holy prophets since the world began. NKJV

If God granted repentance for Israel why did Peter call for them to repent above and Acts 3: 19?

Read Deuteronomy 19: 15-21 the people Peter is talking to were guilty of breaking that law. They were guilty of bearing false witness against God as Peter had reminded them during his sermon. He was letting them know they would not have the death penalty held against them if they admitted guilt by believing in Jesus.

Acts 20:20 how I kept back nothing that was helpful, but proclaimed it to you, and taught you publicly and from house to house, 21 testifying to Jews, and also to Greeks, repentance toward God and faith toward our Lord Jesus Christ. NKJV

If Jesus did it all then why did Paul preach repentance toward God???

John 3:33 when we believe in Jesus, we have certified that God is true. That is repentance toward God! We have turned and are looking to Jesus to save us. That is faith toward Jesus!

Hebrews 12: 7-8 if we keep that faith in Jesus and accept discipline we have eternal life. John 6:3-5 only those who hear and follow Jesus will accept discipline.

Let's agree with God that salvation is a free gift. If we trust Jesus for our complete salvation, we will not be disappointed. Besides if we say to be saved one has to: “Repent and believe in Jesus for salvation”. We are adding to God's word. We know what happened in the garden when someone did that.

fli · May 5, 2025

fli said:
John 3:33 He who has received His (Jesus') testimony has certified that God is true. NKJV

John the Baptist prophesied that the people who received the testimony of Jesus have certified that God is true. God promised in the garden that He would provide a covering for man's sins. Satan accused God of not wanting man to be like Him. The work of Jesus proves Satan wrong and proves God loves the world.

Just what is the testimony of Jesus?

John 3:14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up, 15 that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have eternal life. 16 For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. NKJV

John 3:18 "He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. NKJV

John 5:24 "Most assuredly, I say to you, he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life. NKJV

John 6:29 Jesus answered and said to them, "This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He sent." NKJV

I could have cited a few more red-letter scriptures saying the same thing as those above. I have one more below.

John 10: 24 Then the Jews surrounded Him and said to Him, "How long do You keep us in doubt? If You are the Christ, tell us plainly." 25 Jesus answered them, "I told you, and you do not believe. (All the previous scriptures) The works that I do in My Father's name, they bear witness of Me. 26 But you do not believe, because you are not of My sheep, as I said to you. 27 My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me." NKJV

The prevalent Gospel message of most churches is: Repent of your sins and believe in Jesus and you will be saved.

God says salvation is a free gift, Jesus provided everything people need for salvation, all people have to do is believe.

Is there anything needed for salvation that God has not provided?

Matthew 3: 14b saying, "I need to be baptized by You, and are You coming to me?" 15 But Jesus answered and said to him, "Permit it to be so now, for thus it is fitting for us to fulfill all righteousness." Then he allowed Him. NKJV

You probably will say repentance is necessary to be righteous and without righteousness no one gets into heaven.

Acts 5:31 Him God has exalted to His right hand to be Prince and Savior, to give repentance to Israel and forgiveness of sins. NKJV

Acts 11:18 When they heard these things they became silent; and they glorified God, saying, "Then God has also granted to the Gentiles repentance to life."
NKJV

If the church trusts God to forgive sins, why do they not trust God to give repentance? Can the church have faith in Jesus and not trust that His repentance for our sins is more complete than our futile attempt. God knows more about man and how to get rid of his sins than the church or man does. The church should trust in God's repentance.

A man can go all the way to the point where he has eternal life without repenting or doing works. After reaching the point of eternal life the person is a son of God. Then God expects the person to act like a son of God, repent of bad behavior, and do great works.

Acts 3:19 Repent therefore and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, so that times of refreshing may come from the presence of the Lord, 20 and that He may send Jesus Christ, who was preached to you before, 21 whom heaven must receive until the times of restoration of all things, which God has spoken by the mouth of all His holy prophets since the world began. NKJV

If God granted repentance for Israel why did Peter call for them to repent above and Acts 3: 19?

Read Deuteronomy 19: 15-21 the people Peter is talking to were guilty of breaking that law. They were guilty of bearing false witness against God as Peter had reminded them during his sermon. He was letting them know they would not have the death penalty held against them if they admitted guilt by believing in Jesus.

Acts 20:20 how I kept back nothing that was helpful, but proclaimed it to you, and taught you publicly and from house to house, 21 testifying to Jews, and also to Greeks, repentance toward God and faith toward our Lord Jesus Christ. NKJV

If Jesus did it all then why did Paul preach repentance toward God???

John 3:33 when we believe in Jesus, we have certified that God is true. That is repentance toward God! We have turned and are looking to Jesus to save us. That is faith toward Jesus!

Hebrews 12: 7-8 if we keep that faith in Jesus and accept discipline we have eternal life. John 6:3-5 only those who hear and follow Jesus will accept discipline.

Let's agree with God that salvation is a free gift. If we trust Jesus for our complete salvation, we will not be disappointed. Besides if we say to be saved one has to: “Repent and believe in Jesus for salvation”. We are adding to God's word. We know what happened in the garden when someone did that.

What it means when we certify that God is true?

Isaiah 41:22 "Let them bring forth and show us what will happen; Let them show the former things, what they were, That we may consider them, And know the latter end of them; Or declare to us things to come. NKJV

If we consider the former things we will know the latter end of them.

Isa 46:8 "Remember this, and show yourselves men; Recall to mind, O you transgressors. 9 Remember the former things of old, For I am God, and there is no other; I am God, and there is none like Me, 10 Declaring the end from the beginning, And from ancient times things that are not yet done, Saying, 'My counsel shall stand, And I will do all My pleasure,' NKJV

That is the second witness from God's word which establishes the truth. God declares the end of things from how they began. Let us consider how sin and death began for man.

Genesis 3:17 Then to Adam He said, "Because you have heeded the voice of your wife, and have eaten from the tree of which I commanded you, saying, 'You shall not eat of it': NKJV

God blamed Adam for eating from the tree that He commanded Adam not to eat from. That caused Adam to know good from evil. Adam ate from the tree which caused the fall, but preceding that God said: “Because you have heeded the voice of your wife.” Because Adam heeded the voice of his wife it caused him to eat of the fruit.

Adam was witness to Eve's discussion with the serpent and he knew the topic of their talk which led Eve to eat of the tree. When Adam ate of the tree, at Eve's prompting, he did so because, by God's word, he was heeding the voice of Eve. Adam, in eating the fruit, proved he did not believe God. The serpent told Eve that God had lied to them and did not love them. When he ate the fruit Adam was agreeing with the serpent.

Genesis 15:4 And behold, the word of the Lord came to him, saying, "This one shall not be your heir, but one who will come from your own body shall be your heir." 5 Then He brought him outside and said, "Look now toward heaven, and count the stars if you are able to number them." And He said to him, "So shall your descendants be." 6 And he believed in the Lord, and He accounted it to him for righteousness. NKJV

Abraham, when he believed God, was repenting of the cause of the original sin.

Romans 4:16 Therefore it is of faith that it might be according to grace, so that the promise might be sure to all the seed, not only to those who are of the law, but also to those who are of the faith of Abraham, who is the father of us all NKJV

Paul affirms to the fact that all who have the faith of Abraham are saved from sin and death. Genesis 22: 17-18 Abraham believed God when God said “in your seed that all nations would be blessed.” Abraham knew his Messiah that would come through his seed.

Those people who believe Jesus' testimony (John 3:16, 3:18) have certified that God is true. They have repented of Adam's sin of not believing God. They have repented toward God and have the faith of Abraham. They are not condemned. Sin and death has ended for them.

John 16:8 And when He has come, He will convict the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment: 9 of sin, because they do not believe in Me; 10 of righteousness, because I go to My Father and you see Me no more; 11 of judgment, because the ruler of this world is judged. NKJV

God has proved that Satan is the liar. Satan will now be judged as well as those who still believe Satan.

boughtwithaprice · May 11, 2025

Faith is not mere mental ascent. Faith is also not alone. The gifts that we receive when born again are Faith, Hope, and Charity. See 1 Corinthians 13.
It says that if I have faith alone, I am nothing.

The argument is that Jesus did everything so we don’t have to do anything, but that is not what Jesus told us. He told us that we are saved unto good works.
Jesus says in no uncertain terms that not everyone that calls Him Lord will enter the kingdom of heaven, only those that DO the will of the Father.

Salvation is a free gift, but do you know what salvation even is? It is not living a life of sin and expecting to get into heaven just because one says the name of Jesus.
Yes salvation is a free gift and God also gave us something else for free. It is free will.
To get the free gift of salvation, we have to want it and we have to choose it freely.

Jesus says follow me. He does not say call my name and do nothing. He warns us to walk the narrow way and enter the straight gate

God is not mocked. When we are born again we become dead to sin. We mortify our sinful desires and become men as God wants us to be, not brute beasts.

The first act of a Christian is self denial, as Our Lord says, if a man come after me, let him deny himself, take up his cross, and follow in my footsteps. He goes on to say that any man that safes his life will lose it

Our life is our fleshly desires. A beast is ruled by fleshly desires. A man submitted to God is ruled by reason. As God says, come let us reason together.

God says, I desire obedience rather than sacrifice. He has not left us orphans but has put Apostles, prophets, teachers above us. We yield to them in obedience

If we go our own way and say Jesus paid everything so I am obeying no one, what are we really doing? We put ourselves subject to the wind of our instincts, and most people know that God says, when you sow the wind, you will reap the whirlwind

It is a false gospel that says we need not mortify our flesh and still expect salvation.

Go that way if you want. God gives you free will. I don’t recommend it, but there is nothing I can do to stop you. I am going to submit to God’s Church in obedience, as there is no other way but to trust and obey

fli · May 11, 2025

boughtwithaprice said:
Faith is not mere mental ascent. Faith is also not alone. The gifts that we receive when born again are Faith, Hope, and Charity. See 1 Corinthians 13.
It says that if I have faith alone, I am nothing.

The argument is that Jesus did everything so we don’t have to do anything, but that is not what Jesus told us. He told us that we are saved unto good works.
Jesus says in no uncertain terms that not everyone that calls Him Lord will enter the kingdom of heaven, only those that DO the will of the Father.

Salvation is a free gift, but do you know what salvation even is? It is not living a life of sin and expecting to get into heaven just because one says the name of Jesus.
Yes salvation is a free gift and God also gave us something else for free. It is free will.
To get the free gift of salvation, we have to want it and we have to choose it freely.

Jesus says follow me. He does not say call my name and do nothing. He warns us to walk the narrow way and enter the straight gate

God is not mocked. When we are born again we become dead to sin. We mortify our sinful desires and become men as God wants us to be, not brute beasts.

The first act of a Christian is self denial, as Our Lord says, if a man come after me, let him deny himself, take up his cross, and follow in my footsteps. He goes on to say that any man that safes his life will lose it

Our life is our fleshly desires. A beast is ruled by fleshly desires. A man submitted to God is ruled by reason. As God says, come let us reason together.

God says, I desire obedience rather than sacrifice. He has not left us orphans but has put Apostles, prophets, teachers above us. We yield to them in obedience

If we go our own way and say Jesus paid everything so I am obeying no one, what are we really doing? We put ourselves subject to the wind of our instincts, and most people know that God says, when you sow the wind, you will reap the whirlwind

It is a false gospel that says we need not mortify our flesh and still expect salvation.

Go that way if you want. God gives you free will. I don’t recommend it, but there is nothing I can do to stop you. I am going to submit to God’s Church in obedience, as there is no other way but to trust and obey

Thank you for your reply.

I am going to repeat some of my first post in the hopes you will read it.

A man can go all the way to the point of eternal life without repenting or doing works. After reaching the point of eternal life the person is a son of God. Then God expects the person to act like a son of God, repent of bad behavior, and do great works.

Some people will not make it past the point of eternal life. At the risk of probably repeating some of what I have already posted I will start from when a person hears the gospel to the point of eternal life.

One of 2 reactions happen when a person hears the gospel message which is:

“Jesus, the son of God, died for our sins and was resurrected for our justification. If you believe in Him, you have eternal life. “

A common reaction is:” I don't care.” If that is the response nothing happens.

Another reaction, if the message gives them hope, the person will believe the message. The reason they believe is because the message creates the hope that if they believe in Jesus they will get into heaven.

Colossians 1:4 since we heard of your faith in Christ Jesus and of your love for all the saints; 5 because of the hope which is laid up for you in heaven, of which you heard before in the word of the truth of the gospel, NKJV

Paul says our saving faith comes from our hope, then hope in Jesus is what opens the door to our heart for the Holy Spirit. All believers have an encounter with Jesus after they have hope in Jesus. His Spirit comes into their heart and gives gifts to them.

Hebrews 11:1 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. NKJV

Because of the believers hope in Jesus. the Spirit of Jesus enters the believer to create saving faith. Jesus is the substance of the believers hope and His Spirit in them is their ticket into heaven. Jesus has given believers their hope, love and faith.

1 Corinthians 13:13 And now abide faith, hope, love, these three; but the greatest of these is love. NKJV\

With the Spirit of Jesus in their heart believers have the gift of Godly love. Jesus has given believers the three greatest gifts. As with any gift the believer must choose to use the gifts of God. Unless the believer uses them they will never grow to their potential. They will also be in danger of losing the gifts and their salvation.

Ephesians 1:13 In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, 14 who is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, to the praise of His glory. NKJV

The believers are sealed with the Holy Spirit. They are sealed with the Spirit guaranteeing their inheritance in heaven. The reason people lose salvation is because the person loses their hope in Jesus and/or they lose their love for Jesus. If people love the world more than they love Jesus their hope will be in worldly pleasures. Without hope in Jesus they do not have saving faith. Jesus does not leave them, Jesus has not changed, and His promises have not changed, they choose to leave Jesus.

John 1:12 But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, to those who believe in His name: NKJV

Being born of the Spirit of God believers have the right to become a child of God.

John 12:24 Most assuredly, I say to you, unless a grain of wheat falls into the ground and dies, it remains alone; but if it dies, it produces much grain. NKJV

Jesus' Spirit in them causes the believer to be born of the Spirit.

Acts 11:18 When they heard these things they became silent; and they glorified God, saying, "Then God has also granted to the Gentiles repentance to life." NKJV

In addition to the gift's already cited God has granted believers repentance of sins to the point of eternal life. God gives all believers time to listen and learn from Jesus.

1 Corinthians 2:16 For "who has known the mind of the Lord that he may instruct Him?" But we have the mind of Christ. NKJV

All believers now have the mind of Christ to guide them through sanctification. Romans 8 God looks at us as being dead and dead people cannot sin so He does not impute sin to us as long as we stay in the Spirit. Because God has granted repentance, everyone will stay in the Spirit up to the point of eternal life.

The first thing Jesus works on is to change our carnal mind to a spiritual mind. A spiritual mind knows that Gods laws are holy, just and good. If Jesus succeeds then our mind agrees with our heart where Jesus' Spirit resides. Jeremiah 31:31-33 Once our mind agrees with our heart we will follow Jesus in discipline.

In addition to the already named gifts God will give them additional gifts to be used for building and strengthening the Church.

Hebrews 12:7 If you endure chastening, God deals with you as with sons; for what son is there whom a father does not chasten? 8 But if you are without chastening, of which all have become partakers, then you are illegitimate and not sons. NKJV

Once we accept discipline we have reached the point of eternal life. Our faith, love and hope has brought us to this point, we have not repented of one sin. However, our mind has had a complete turnaround. God is true: salvation is a free gift.

There are people whom Jesus could not change their mind. These people refuse to be disciplined and become illegitimate children without an inheritance in heaven.

Romans 8:13b but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live. 14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God. NKJV

If a believer follows the commands of the Spirit, they should be able to identify a/some sin(s) of the flesh the Spirit has put to death. From now on believers need to be obeying His voice and the commandments in 1 John3:21-23.

1 John 3:21 Beloved, if our heart does not condemn us, we have confidence toward God. 22 And whatever we ask we receive from Him, because we keep His commandments and do those things that are pleasing in His sight. 23 And this is His commandment: that we should believe on the name of His Son Jesus Christ and love one another, as He gave us commandment. NKJV

We are expected to act as a child of God. This means we repent of sins and do the good works we were created for.

boughtwithaprice · May 11, 2025

fli said:
Thank you for your reply.

I am going to repeat some of my first post in the hopes you will read it.

A man can go all the way to the point of eternal life without repenting or doing works. After reaching the point of eternal life the person is a son of God. Then God expects the person to act like a son of God, repent of bad behavior, and do great works.

Some people will not make it past the point of eternal life. At the risk of probably repeating some of what I have already posted I will start from when a person hears the gospel to the point of eternal life.

One of 2 reactions happen when a person hears the gospel message which is:

“Jesus, the son of God, died for our sins and was resurrected for our justification. If you believe in Him, you have eternal life. “

A common reaction is:” I don't care.” If that is the response nothing happens.

Another reaction, if the message gives them hope, the person will believe the message. The reason they believe is because the message creates the hope that if they believe in Jesus they will get into heaven.

Colossians 1:4 since we heard of your faith in Christ Jesus and of your love for all the saints; 5 because of the hope which is laid up for you in heaven, of which you heard before in the word of the truth of the gospel, NKJV

Paul says our saving faith comes from our hope, then hope in Jesus is what opens the door to our heart for the Holy Spirit. All believers have an encounter with Jesus after they have hope in Jesus. His Spirit comes into their heart and gives gifts to them.

Hebrews 11:1 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. NKJV

Because of the believers hope in Jesus. the Spirit of Jesus enters the believer to create saving faith. Jesus is the substance of the believers hope and His Spirit in them is their ticket into heaven. Jesus has given believers their hope, love and faith.

1 Corinthians 13:13 And now abide faith, hope, love, these three; but the greatest of these is love. NKJV\

With the Spirit of Jesus in their heart believers have the gift of Godly love. Jesus has given believers the three greatest gifts. As with any gift the believer must choose to use the gifts of God. Unless the believer uses them they will never grow to their potential. They will also be in danger of losing the gifts and their salvation.

Ephesians 1:13 In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, 14 who is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, to the praise of His glory. NKJV

The believers are sealed with the Holy Spirit. They are sealed with the Spirit guaranteeing their inheritance in heaven. The reason people lose salvation is because the person loses their hope in Jesus and/or they lose their love for Jesus. If people love the world more than they love Jesus their hope will be in worldly pleasures. Without hope in Jesus they do not have saving faith. Jesus does not leave them, Jesus has not changed, and His promises have not changed, they choose to leave Jesus.

John 1:12 But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, to those who believe in His name: NKJV

Being born of the Spirit of God believers have the right to become a child of God.

John 12:24 Most assuredly, I say to you, unless a grain of wheat falls into the ground and dies, it remains alone; but if it dies, it produces much grain. NKJV

Jesus' Spirit in them causes the believer to be born of the Spirit.

Acts 11:18 When they heard these things they became silent; and they glorified God, saying, "Then God has also granted to the Gentiles repentance to life." NKJV

In addition to the gift's already cited God has granted believers repentance of sins to the point of eternal life. God gives all believers time to listen and learn from Jesus.

1 Corinthians 2:16 For "who has known the mind of the Lord that he may instruct Him?" But we have the mind of Christ. NKJV

All believers now have the mind of Christ to guide them through sanctification. Romans 8 God looks at us as being dead and dead people cannot sin so He does not impute sin to us as long as we stay in the Spirit. Because God has granted repentance, everyone will stay in the Spirit up to the point of eternal life.

The first thing Jesus works on is to change our carnal mind to a spiritual mind. A spiritual mind knows that Gods laws are holy, just and good. If Jesus succeeds then our mind agrees with our heart where Jesus' Spirit resides. Jeremiah 31:31-33 Once our mind agrees with our heart we will follow Jesus in discipline.

In addition to the already named gifts God will give them additional gifts to be used for building and strengthening the Church.

Hebrews 12:7 If you endure chastening, God deals with you as with sons; for what son is there whom a father does not chasten? 8 But if you are without chastening, of which all have become partakers, then you are illegitimate and not sons. NKJV

Once we accept discipline we have reached the point of eternal life. Our faith, love and hope has brought us to this point, we have not repented of one sin. However, our mind has had a complete turnaround. God is true: salvation is a free gift.

There are people whom Jesus could not change their mind. These people refuse to be disciplined and become illegitimate children without an inheritance in heaven.

Romans 8:13b but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live. 14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God. NKJV

If a believer follows the commands of the Spirit, they should be able to identify a/some sin(s) of the flesh the Spirit has put to death. From now on believers need to be obeying His voice and the commandments in 1 John3:21-23.

1 John 3:21 Beloved, if our heart does not condemn us, we have confidence toward God. 22 And whatever we ask we receive from Him, because we keep His commandments and do those things that are pleasing in His sight. 23 And this is His commandment: that we should believe on the name of His Son Jesus Christ and love one another, as He gave us commandment. NKJV

We are expected to act as a child of God. This means we repent of sins and do the good works we were created for.

Your conclusions are consistent, but there is some deviation in your reasoning.
It fails to account for the gifts God has already given us, though some say they are worthless and not worth consideration.
Specifically I am speaking of the bread of life and confession to a priest.
God can have mercy on ignorance. If a soul really does not know these gifts are available or can’t understand them, God has mercy on whom He has mercy, but when we know as we are fully known, we will be embarrassed that we did not avail ourselves of them.
John Chapter 6 and the first 1500 years of the Church tell us that the bread and wine once consecrated become the body and blood, soul and divinity of Our Lord Jesus Christ.
Before Jesus ascended into heaven, He breathed on the Apostles and gave them the power to forgive sins. This power was handed down by Apostolic succession to the present day
God did this in His mercy as Hebrews says if we sin once we have known the truth, there remains no more sacrifice for sin. By sinning once we believe, we squander the gift of salvation given to us and must seek penance and mercy. As God says, I desire obedience rather than sacrifice, we cannot arrogantly presume mercy by Christ’s sacrifice. When we humble ourselves and submit in repentance, God has mercy, and His mercy endures forever.
We also contemplate why God came to redeem us through the Virgin Mary. He could have come on His own and said I will redeem you, but He humbled Himself and allowed divine majesty to be born of a woman. That subject requires much contemplation and not to be taken lightly or set aside

Peace be with you, I enjoyed reading your post
You are in my prayers and

fli · May 11, 2025

boughtwithaprice said:
Your conclusions are consistent, but there is some deviation in your reasoning.
It fails to account for the gifts God has already given us, though some say they are worthless and not worth consideration.
Specifically I am speaking of the bread of life and confession to a priest.
God can have mercy on ignorance. If a soul really does not know these gifts are available or can’t understand them, God has mercy on whom He has mercy, but when we know as we are fully known, we will be embarrassed that we did not avail ourselves of them.
John Chapter 6 and the first 1500 years of the Church tell us that the bread and wine once consecrated become the body and blood, soul and divinity of Our Lord Jesus Christ.
Before Jesus ascended into heaven, He breathed on the Apostles and gave them the power to forgive sins. This power was handed down by Apostolic succession to the present day
God did this in His mercy as Hebrews says if we sin once we have known the truth, there remains no more sacrifice for sin. By sinning once we believe, we squander the gift of salvation given to us and must seek penance and mercy. As God says, I desire obedience rather than sacrifice, we cannot arrogantly presume mercy by Christ’s sacrifice. When we humble ourselves and submit in repentance, God has mercy, and His mercy endures forever.
We also contemplate why God came to redeem us through the Virgin Mary. He could have come on His own and said I will redeem you, but He humbled Himself and allowed divine majesty to be born of a woman. That subject requires much contemplation and not to be taken lightly or set aside

Peace be with you, I enjoyed reading your post
You are in my prayers and

John 6:53 Then Jesus said to them, "Most assuredly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink His blood, you have no life in you. 54 Whoever eats My flesh and drinks My blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day. 55 For My flesh is food indeed, and My blood is drink indeed. 56 He who eats My flesh and drinks My blood abides in Me, and I in him. 57 As the living Father sent Me, and I live because of the Father, so he who feeds on Me will live because of Me. 58 This is the bread which came down from heaven — not as your fathers ate the manna, and are dead. He who eats this bread will live forever." NKJV

When we believe we are partaking of the body and blood of Christ. As Paul said in Colossians our saving faith comes from our hope in Jesus. The Spirit of Jesus entered us which means our Hope in Jesus tells God we have entered into the new covenant, accepted Jesus' blood to cover our sins. Jesus is the bread of life and now we live eternally by the word of God, flesh of Christ, if we stay in covenant till we die physically.

John 20:21 So Jesus said to them again, "Peace to you! As the Father has sent Me, I also send you." 22 And when He had said this, He breathed on them, and said to them, "Receive the Holy Spirit. 23 If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven them; if you retain the sins of any, they are retained." NKJV

Jesus is making all the Apostles stewards in the kingdom of God. They did not have the power to forgive the sins of anyone not in the kingdom. Only through Jesus are the sins of anyone forgiven. After people were in the kingdom the Apostles had the power to bind a sin for discipline purposes. This did not keep the person with the bound sins from entering heaven. It did mean that they would die physically if they did not repent of the sin.

Jesus told them to receive the Holy Spirit when He breathed on them. Genesis 2:7 the same thing happened in the garden when God gave Adam life.

Acts 1:1 The former account I made, O Theophilus, of all that Jesus began both to do and teach, 2 until the day in which He was taken up, after He through the Holy Spirit had given commandments to the apostles whom He had chosen, 3 to whom He also presented Himself alive after His suffering by many infallible proofs, being seen by them during forty days and speaking of the things pertaining to the kingdom of God. NKJV

Jesus taught them through the Holy Spirit they had received when He breathed on them.

Acts 1:7 And He said to them, "It is not for you to know times or seasons which the Father has put in His own authority. 8 But you shall receive power when the Holy Spirit has come upon you; and you shall be witnesses to Me in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the end of the earth." NKJV

The Holy Spirit came upon them, manifest gifts from God, when Jesus baptized them with fire.

Thank you for your reply.

fli · May 12, 2025

boughtwithaprice said:
Your conclusions are consistent, but there is some deviation in your reasoning.
It fails to account for the gifts God has already given us, though some say they are worthless and not worth consideration.
Specifically I am speaking of the bread of life and confession to a priest.
God can have mercy on ignorance. If a soul really does not know these gifts are available or can’t understand them, God has mercy on whom He has mercy, but when we know as we are fully known, we will be embarrassed that we did not avail ourselves of them.
John Chapter 6 and the first 1500 years of the Church tell us that the bread and wine once consecrated become the body and blood, soul and divinity of Our Lord Jesus Christ.
Before Jesus ascended into heaven, He breathed on the Apostles and gave them the power to forgive sins. This power was handed down by Apostolic succession to the present day
God did this in His mercy as Hebrews says if we sin once we have known the truth, there remains no more sacrifice for sin. By sinning once we believe, we squander the gift of salvation given to us and must seek penance and mercy. As God says, I desire obedience rather than sacrifice, we cannot arrogantly presume mercy by Christ’s sacrifice. When we humble ourselves and submit in repentance, God has mercy, and His mercy endures forever.
We also contemplate why God came to redeem us through the Virgin Mary. He could have come on His own and said I will redeem you, but He humbled Himself and allowed divine majesty to be born of a woman. That subject requires much contemplation and not to be taken lightly or set aside

Peace be with you, I enjoyed reading your post
You are in my prayers and

As further proof that the Eucharist is not required for salvation.

Job 1:1 There was a man in the land of Uz, whose name was Job; and that man was blameless and upright, and one who feared God and shunned evil. NKJV

Job was a blameless and upright man.

Romans 1:18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, 19 because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. 20 For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse, NKJV

Job was not a Jew; therefore, he was not in covenant by circumcision. He came in the hard way, by seeing and learning about God through His creation.

Job 19:25 For I know that my Redeemer lives, And He shall stand at last on the earth; 26 And after my skin is destroyed, this I know, That in my flesh I shall see God, 27 Whom I shall see for myself, And my eyes shall behold, and not another. How my heart yearns within me! NKJV

Job knew about His redeemer before most prophets in the OT. He knew and wrote of the resurrection before Peter or Paul. How did Job get in covenant with God and thereby receiving eternal life. Surely God would not have with held a necessary requirement from Job. What qualified Job to be redeemed by Jesus?

Job 31:24 "If I have made gold my hope, Or said to fine gold, 'You are my confidence'; 25 If I have rejoiced because my wealth was great, And because my hand had gained much; 26 If I have observed the sun when it shines, Or the moon moving in brightness, 27 So that my heart has been secretly enticed, And my mouth has kissed my hand; 28 This also would be an iniquity deserving of judgment, For I would have denied God who is above. NKJV

If Job had put his hope in anything other than God, he would have been in sin. Job as well as everyone that believes God enters into covenant by their hope and not through eating the Eucharist.

boughtwithaprice · May 12, 2025

fli said:
As further proof that the Eucharist is not required for salvation.

Job 1:1 There was a man in the land of Uz, whose name was Job; and that man was blameless and upright, and one who feared God and shunned evil. NKJV

Job was a blameless and upright man.

Romans 1:18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, 19 because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. 20 For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse, NKJV

Job was not a Jew; therefore, he was not in covenant by circumcision. He came in the hard way, by seeing and learning about God through His creation.

Job 19:25 For I know that my Redeemer lives, And He shall stand at last on the earth; 26 And after my skin is destroyed, this I know, That in my flesh I shall see God, 27 Whom I shall see for myself, And my eyes shall behold, and not another. How my heart yearns within me! NKJV

Job knew about His redeemer before most prophets in the OT. He knew and wrote of the resurrection before Peter or Paul. How did Job get in covenant with God and thereby receiving eternal life. Surely God would not have with held a necessary requirement from Job. What qualified Job to be redeemed by Jesus?

Job 31:24 "If I have made gold my hope, Or said to fine gold, 'You are my confidence'; 25 If I have rejoiced because my wealth was great, And because my hand had gained much; 26 If I have observed the sun when it shines, Or the moon moving in brightness, 27 So that my heart has been secretly enticed, And my mouth has kissed my hand; 28 This also would be an iniquity deserving of judgment, For I would have denied God who is above. NKJV

If Job had put his hope in anything other than God, he would have been in sin. Job as well as everyone that believes God enters into covenant by their hope and not through eating the Eucharist.

Thank you for your thoughts. I like that your thinking is on Jesus, the author and finisher of our faith.
We have been accused of idolatry or magical thinking due to the Eucharist and confession, but our hearts are also on the Lord, who instituted these sacraments
You seem to say that I said they are necessary for salvation. That is not 100% true.
God meets us where we are and gives us knowledge as we are willing. I said they are God’s gifts for the strengthening of our Faith
The Eucharist and confession are not optional for Catholics. Those that do not understand them are not judged by them
They should however be contemplated. For 1500 years, the real presence of Christ in the Eucharist was taught. It was only after 1500 years after the start of the Church was doubt let in. The Eucharist is a gift and it is proven very beneficial. We even have evidence of Eucharistic miracles where the host was turned to flesh and blood, heart tissue that shows us the sacred heart of Jesus who takes great pain to show mercy to His sheep. I cannot neglect that great of a gift.

Your thinking is on our Lord Jesus and for that I rejoice. I think you should study how the Apostolic faith was originally preached. As followers of Jesus, we are always learning and never stop striving for the prize. Check our demonstration of the apostolic teaching by Iraneus. It is a work of the second century

fli · May 13, 2025

I have never been convicted that I had to eat the Eucharist, confess to a priest or pray to any other than the Father and Jesus. I do know that I am a Child of God. I have attended some Catholic services, and I heard a lot of Hail Mary's but very little of praise Jesus. I know there are true believers in most all denomination claiming to be Christian including Catholic. The true believers in all those denominations will believe the Bible over the denomination's commentaries.

boughtwithaprice · May 14, 2025

fli said:
I have never been convicted that I had to eat the Eucharist, confess to a priest or pray to any other than the Father and Jesus. I do know that I am a Child of God. I have attended some Catholic services, and I heard a lot of Hail Mary's but very little of praise Jesus. I know there are true believers in most all denomination claiming to be Christian including Catholic. The true believers in all those denominations will believe the Bible over the denomination's commentaries.

I don’t doubt your sincerity, but the Hail Mary is not said during Mass.
We have four scripture readings during Mass. usually one Old Testament, one New Testament, one Psalm and one reading of the Gospel.
All scripture points to Christ, and He was brought into the world through Mary by God’s design.
She is half of the hypostatic union and cannot be separated from Jesus, which is why we pray Hail Mary full of grace, the Lord is with you, and that is a direct quote from the Gospel of Luke, but the Hail Mary is not said during Mass. It is for contemplation as we marvel at God lowering Himself to become man to redeem us from sin
Your final sentence is true, as Catholics, we believe the Bible over Protestant commentary
Everything in the Mass is according to scripture and not contradicted. It may be denied by Protestant commentary, but that is only man’s opinion.
According to scripture, we follow Jesus command to Do this in remembrance of me.
By Apostolic succession, the bread and wine become the same body and blood of Jesus that He offered to the Apostles at the last supper.
Through the sacrament of Holy Orders, our priests are given the same authority to forgive sins as the Apostles were when Jesus breathed on them. Spiritual authority is passed down by the laying on of hands according to scripture, it cannot be bought or assumed for oneself.
These are gifts offered to us by Jesus. Would I not want to eat the same supper as the Apostles?
Would I not humble myself before a priest with Apostolic authority? These are the gifts of God
Scripture does not deny the Catholic Church
The Catholic Church is denied by Protestant commentary, but we do not listen to the opinions of men. Jesus is the same yesterday, today and forever.
The Catholic Church recognizes Protestants as Christian and you desire to serve Jesus as best as you are able.
I just don’t see a reason to refuse the gifts God offers me. I can eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink His blood. That is an offer I cannot refuse. If I sin after I have believed, there remains no sacrifice for sin. I have to humble myself and ask for the grace of penance to by worthy to receive the body and blood of Christ. God has also provided that gift

If you are not convicted, I don’t know what to say. Jesus does tell us that no one comes to Him unless the Father draws him. He also says that the bruised reed he will not bend and the smoking flax he will not quench
If you want to follow Jesus, keep doing so as much as you are able, but wouldn’t you want to eat his real flesh and drink his real blood instead of just thinking about it?

You are in my prayers, peace be with you

Valletta · May 14, 2025

fli said:
John 6:53 Then Jesus said to them, "Most assuredly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink His blood, you have no life in you. 54 Whoever eats My flesh and drinks My blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day. 55 For My flesh is food indeed, and My blood is drink indeed. 56 He who eats My flesh and drinks My blood abides in Me, and I in him. 57 As the living Father sent Me, and I live because of the Father, so he who feeds on Me will live because of Me. 58 This is the bread which came down from heaven — not as your fathers ate the manna, and are dead. He who eats this bread will live forever." NKJV

When we believe we are partaking of the body and blood of Christ.

Jesus says whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood. In fact the English translation misses it, but when in John 6 Jesus was questioned He became even more emphatic, and the Greek word for "eat" is changed to a word meaning to "gnaw" or "chew."

David Lamb · May 15, 2025

Valletta said:
Jesus says whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood. In fact the English translation misses it, but when in John 6 Jesus was questioned He became even more emphatic, and the Greek word for "eat" is changed to a word meaning to "gnaw" or "chew."

The Greek word, according to the 3 lexicons I have, can mean to gnaw or to chew, but it can also mean "to eat." It is the word translated "eating" in this verse:

“"For as in the days before the flood, they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noah entered the ark,” (Mt 24:38 NKJV)

fli · May 15, 2025

boughtwithaprice said:
I don’t doubt your sincerity, but the Hail Mary is not said during Mass.
We have four scripture readings during Mass. usually one Old Testament, one New Testament, one Psalm and one reading of the Gospel.
All scripture points to Christ, and He was brought into the world through Mary by God’s design.
She is half of the hypostatic union and cannot be separated from Jesus, which is why we pray Hail Mary full of grace, the Lord is with you, and that is a direct quote from the Gospel of Luke, but the Hail Mary is not said during Mass. It is for contemplation as we marvel at God lowering Himself to become man to redeem us from sin
Your final sentence is true, as Catholics, we believe the Bible over Protestant commentary
Everything in the Mass is according to scripture and not contradicted. It may be denied by Protestant commentary, but that is only man’s opinion.
According to scripture, we follow Jesus command to Do this in remembrance of me.
By Apostolic succession, the bread and wine become the same body and blood of Jesus that He offered to the Apostles at the last supper.
Through the sacrament of Holy Orders, our priests are given the same authority to forgive sins as the Apostles were when Jesus breathed on them. Spiritual authority is passed down by the laying on of hands according to scripture, it cannot be bought or assumed for oneself.
These are gifts offered to us by Jesus. Would I not want to eat the same supper as the Apostles?
Would I not humble myself before a priest with Apostolic authority? These are the gifts of God
Scripture does not deny the Catholic Church
The Catholic Church is denied by Protestant commentary, but we do not listen to the opinions of men. Jesus is the same yesterday, today and forever.
The Catholic Church recognizes Protestants as Christian and you desire to serve Jesus as best as you are able.
I just don’t see a reason to refuse the gifts God offers me. I can eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink His blood. That is an offer I cannot refuse. If I sin after I have believed, there remains no sacrifice for sin. I have to humble myself and ask for the grace of penance to by worthy to receive the body and blood of Christ. God has also provided that gift

If you are not convicted, I don’t know what to say. Jesus does tell us that no one comes to Him unless the Father draws him. He also says that the bruised reed he will not bend and the smoking flax he will not quench
If you want to follow Jesus, keep doing so as much as you are able, but wouldn’t you want to eat his real flesh and drink his real blood instead of just thinking about it?

You are in my prayers, peace be with you

You caught me in a lie. I attended a Catholic service over 20 years ago when I went with my brother-in-law. That one I cannot remember to much about. Recently I attended a Catholic funeral service. That one was one up and down experience with the hail Mary's. I apologize for confusing a catholic funeral service with catholic worship service.

We know God's plan for marriage is one man and one woman.

Matthew 1:20 But while he thought about these things, behold, an angel of the Lord appeared to him in a dream, saying, "Joseph, son of David, do not be afraid to take to you Mary your wife, for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Spirit. NKJV

If Mary was already the wife of one husband, God would not tell Joseph to go ahead and marry her.

Matthew 1:24 Then Joseph, being aroused from sleep, did as the angel of the Lord commanded him and took to him his wife, 25 and did not know her till she had brought forth her firstborn Son. And he called His name Jesus. NKJV

The angel of the Lord called Mary Joseph's wife. We know that Mary became one with Joseph because the Holy Spirit says Joseph knew her after Jesus was born.

As for a priest being able to forgive my sins they cannot. Martin Luther disputed “indulgences” that were being sold that absolved people from sin when they bought an indulgence from the Pope. That is why I do not believe the catholic popes believe that protestants will get to heaven. They would be admitting that Luther was right.

Below is scriptural proof one does not need a priest or pope to grant forgiveness.

Romans 8:1(a) There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus,(b) who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit. 2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made me free from the law of sin and death. 3 For what the law could not do in that it was weak through the flesh, God did by sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, on account of sin: He condemned sin in the flesh, 4 that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit. NKJV

The underlined part was not in the original text that Paul wrote. By John 3:18 Romans 8:1a is a correct statement without the b part. The law of the Spirit of life in Christ means just that. If one has the Spirit of Christ they are in Christ and they are not condemned, they have eternal life. Not condemned means they are not in sin.

Romans 8:10 And if Christ is in you, the body is dead because of sin, but the Spirit is life because of righteousness. 11 But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who dwells in you. NKJV

If we are in the Spirit, Romans 8: 4, the law of sin and death is fulfilled in us, by the Father keeping us alive. As long as we are in the flesh we are in sin. God looks at us thru Jesus, who is dead, therefore, God considers us dead in Christ and does not impute sin to us. Once a person is in Jesus, God does not impute sin to them. That means they will be sinless, as far as God is concerned, until they die in Christ.

Romans 8:12 Therefore, brethren, we are debtors — not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh. 13 For if you live according to the flesh you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live. 14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God. NKJV

The part in bold is why I know that I know that I am a son of God. I have several sins put to death. I know that one of them was entirely put to death by the Spirit. When I first came in to Jesus I was told that I had to repent of my sins to be saved. One of my sins was especially grievous to me. I would repent then do it again I would repent, do it, repent, do it over and over for at least 20 years. Finally, in desperation I cried out to the lord and asked if I was truly saved? As soon as I cried out a thought passed through my mind “you love the brethren.”

1 John 3:13 Do not marvel, my brethren, if the world hates you. 14 We know that we have passed from death to life, because we love the brethren. NKJV

I believe that God answered my question. I have not been bothered by that sin since I got the message. My spirit could not put it to death. His Spirit out it to death.

Romans 8 also tells me that the Father considers me sinless, no condemnation to me. therefore, I have no need to have an intercessor. Yes, I am in the flesh and am sold under sin. I am still a sinner but God does not impute sin to me. Through Jesus' blood covering my sins, and my continuing to confess my sinfulness and asking for forgiveness, God will not impute sins to me.

The Father did not draw me.

John 12:32 And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all peoples to Myself." NKJV

Jesus drew me, as He drew Paul in Acts and called him by name. The Father does not draw people in the NT.

John 6:37 All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will by no means cast out. NKJV

The Father did give me to Jesus. The Father drew those to Jesus when He walked on earth among the Jews. Now the Father gives the elect to Jesus.

Deuteronomy 4:2 You shall not add to the word which I command you, nor take from it, that you may keep the commandments of the Lord your God which I command you. NKJV

Revelation 22:18 For I testify to everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: If anyone adds to these things, God will add to him the plagues that are written in this book. NKJV

The elect are all taught by the Father to go to Jesus. After that we are taught by the word of God. All the word of God is contained from the beginning to the end in the Bible.

If you are praying for me to believe the wrong doctrine of the Catholics, you can quit. I am praying for God to teach you the truth.

Valletta · May 15, 2025

fli said:
As for a priest being able to forgive my sins they cannot.

John 20:23 If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven; if you retain the sins of any, they are retained.” RSVCE

The Catholic Church indeed knows God can forgive sins without the sacrament. The beauty of Jesus instituting the sacrament is that it takes some forethought and repentance and humbleness to go to confession and say your sins out loud before a man. And some penance is required. It is also wonderful that a person can know his or her sins are forgiven. It doesn't take much to commit a sin and throw out a quick "Sorry God" over your shoulder and go back to sinning.

fli said:
Martin Luther disputed “indulgences” that were being sold that absolved people from sin when they bought an indulgence from the Pope. That is why I do not believe the catholic popes believe that protestants will get to heaven. They would be admitting that Luther was right.

The Catholic Church condemned the selling of indulgences, the Church and Luther were both right on that one. An indulgence was granted for charitable acts, and when money was involved it could occasionally lead to abuses, and there were abuses during Luther's time.

fli · May 15, 2025

Valletta said:
John 20:23 If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven; if you retain the sins of any, they are retained.” RSVCE

The Catholic Church indeed knows God can forgive sins without the sacrament. The beauty of Jesus instituting the sacrament is that it takes some forethought and repentance and humbleness to go to confession and say your sins out loud before a man. And some penance is required. It is also wonderful that a person can know his or her sins are forgiven. It doesn't take much to commit a sin and throw out a quick "Sorry God" over your shoulder and go back to sinning.

The Catholic Church condemned the selling of indulgences, the Church and Luther were both right on that one. An indulgence was granted for charitable acts, and when money was involved it could occasionally lead to abuses, and there were abuses during Luther's time.

2 Corinthians 10:8 For even if I should boast somewhat more about our authority, which the Lord gave us for edification and not for your destruction, I shall not be ashamed — 9 lest I seem to terrify you by letters. NKJV

Paul wrote about the authority given to all the apostles for discipline purposes. That is the same authority given in Matthew 16:19 the binding and loosening of sins the apostles had for discipline purposes.

1 Timothy 1:18 This charge I commit to you, son Timothy, according to the prophecies previously made concerning you, that by them you may wage the good warfare, 19 having faith and a good conscience, which some having rejected, concerning the faith have suffered shipwreck, 20 of whom are Hymenaeus and Alexander, whom I delivered to Satan that they may learn not to blaspheme. NKJV

God gave the apostles the power to bind sins and turn them over to Satan for discipline. Satan does not teach his disciples to be righteous. Therefore, Paul bound the sin of blasphemy to the 2 offenders. The discipline would end when they repented, learned to not blasphemy. Upon repentance the sin would be loosed. If they did not repent their flesh would die and their soul would go to heaven.

1 Corinthians 12:28 And God has appointed these in the church: first apostles, second prophets, third teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, administrations, varieties of tongues. 29 Are all apostles? Are all prophets? Are all teachers? Are all workers of miracles? 30 Do all have gifts of healings? Do all speak with tongues? Do all interpret? 31 But earnestly desire the best gifts. And yet I show you a more excellent way. NKJV

God appoints the governing people within the Church. They are not inherited.

2 Corinthians 12:12 Truly the signs of an apostle were accomplished among you with all perseverance, in signs and wonders and mighty deeds. NKJV

When I see the signs that God has appointed an apostle, only apostles had the ability to bind and loose, then I will agree that he has authority to bind and loose sins for discipline purposes.

boughtwithaprice · May 17, 2025

fli said:
You caught me in a lie. I attended a Catholic service over 20 years ago when I went with my brother-in-law. That one I cannot remember to much about. Recently I attended a Catholic funeral service. That one was one up and down experience with the hail Mary's. I apologize for confusing a catholic funeral service with catholic worship service.

We know God's plan for marriage is one man and one woman.

Matthew 1:20 But while he thought about these things, behold, an angel of the Lord appeared to him in a dream, saying, "Joseph, son of David, do not be afraid to take to you Mary your wife, for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Spirit. NKJV

If Mary was already the wife of one husband, God would not tell Joseph to go ahead and marry her.

Matthew 1:24 Then Joseph, being aroused from sleep, did as the angel of the Lord commanded him and took to him his wife, 25 and did not know her till she had brought forth her firstborn Son. And he called His name Jesus. NKJV

The angel of the Lord called Mary Joseph's wife. We know that Mary became one with Joseph because the Holy Spirit says Joseph knew her after Jesus was born.

As for a priest being able to forgive my sins they cannot. Martin Luther disputed “indulgences” that were being sold that absolved people from sin when they bought an indulgence from the Pope. That is why I do not believe the catholic popes believe that protestants will get to heaven. They would be admitting that Luther was right.

Below is scriptural proof one does not need a priest or pope to grant forgiveness.

Romans 8:1(a) There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus,(b) who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit. 2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made me free from the law of sin and death. 3 For what the law could not do in that it was weak through the flesh, God did by sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, on account of sin: He condemned sin in the flesh, 4 that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit. NKJV

The underlined part was not in the original text that Paul wrote. By John 3:18 Romans 8:1a is a correct statement without the b part. The law of the Spirit of life in Christ means just that. If one has the Spirit of Christ they are in Christ and they are not condemned, they have eternal life. Not condemned means they are not in sin.

Romans 8:10 And if Christ is in you, the body is dead because of sin, but the Spirit is life because of righteousness. 11 But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who dwells in you. NKJV

If we are in the Spirit, Romans 8: 4, the law of sin and death is fulfilled in us, by the Father keeping us alive. As long as we are in the flesh we are in sin. God looks at us thru Jesus, who is dead, therefore, God considers us dead in Christ and does not impute sin to us. Once a person is in Jesus, God does not impute sin to them. That means they will be sinless, as far as God is concerned, until they die in Christ.

Romans 8:12 Therefore, brethren, we are debtors — not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh. 13 For if you live according to the flesh you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live. 14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God. NKJV

The part in bold is why I know that I know that I am a son of God. I have several sins put to death. I know that one of them was entirely put to death by the Spirit. When I first came in to Jesus I was told that I had to repent of my sins to be saved. One of my sins was especially grievous to me. I would repent then do it again I would repent, do it, repent, do it over and over for at least 20 years. Finally, in desperation I cried out to the lord and asked if I was truly saved? As soon as I cried out a thought passed through my mind “you love the brethren.”

1 John 3:13 Do not marvel, my brethren, if the world hates you. 14 We know that we have passed from death to life, because we love the brethren. NKJV

I believe that God answered my question. I have not been bothered by that sin since I got the message. My spirit could not put it to death. His Spirit out it to death.

Romans 8 also tells me that the Father considers me sinless, no condemnation to me. therefore, I have no need to have an intercessor. Yes, I am in the flesh and am sold under sin. I am still a sinner but God does not impute sin to me. Through Jesus' blood covering my sins, and my continuing to confess my sinfulness and asking for forgiveness, God will not impute sins to me.

The Father did not draw me.

John 12:32 And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all peoples to Myself." NKJV

Jesus drew me, as He drew Paul in Acts and called him by name. The Father does not draw people in the NT.

John 6:37 All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will by no means cast out. NKJV

The Father did give me to Jesus. The Father drew those to Jesus when He walked on earth among the Jews. Now the Father gives the elect to Jesus.

Deuteronomy 4:2 You shall not add to the word which I command you, nor take from it, that you may keep the commandments of the Lord your God which I command you. NKJV

Revelation 22:18 For I testify to everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: If anyone adds to these things, God will add to him the plagues that are written in this book. NKJV

The elect are all taught by the Father to go to Jesus. After that we are taught by the word of God. All the word of God is contained from the beginning to the end in the Bible.

If you are praying for me to believe the wrong doctrine of the Catholics, you can quit. I am praying for God to teach you the truth.

I like the way you reveal your reasoning rather than make blanket assertions. You do not do it on purpose, but there are minor errors in your reasoning that wind up changing the whole argument.
First, we can agree that Martin Luther is not God, he is subject to error and truth does not demand that he be found 100% right or 100% wrong. We need to understand what was happening at the time, and what the terms mean to gain understanding.
Luther objected to a priest abusing the ability to grant indulgences in order to extort money from the poor. He did not dispute the authority to grant the indulgence in the first place.
That leads to questions what is an indulgence and where does the authority to grant it come from?

fli said:
You caught me in a lie. I attended a Catholic service over 20 years ago when I went with my brother-in-law. That one I cannot remember to much about. Recently I attended a Catholic funeral service. That one was one up and down experience with the hail Mary's. I apologize for confusing a catholic funeral service with catholic worship service.

We know God's plan for marriage is one man and one woman.

Matthew 1:20 But while he thought about these things, behold, an angel of the Lord appeared to him in a dream, saying, "Joseph, son of David, do not be afraid to take to you Mary your wife, for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Spirit. NKJV

If Mary was already the wife of one husband, God would not tell Joseph to go ahead and marry her.

Matthew 1:24 Then Joseph, being aroused from sleep, did as the angel of the Lord commanded him and took to him his wife, 25 and did not know her till she had brought forth her firstborn Son. And he called His name Jesus. NKJV

The angel of the Lord called Mary Joseph's wife. We know that Mary became one with Joseph because the Holy Spirit says Joseph knew her after Jesus was born.

As for a priest being able to forgive my sins they cannot. Martin Luther disputed “indulgences” that were being sold that absolved people from sin when they bought an indulgence from the Pope. That is why I do not believe the catholic popes believe that protestants will get to heaven. They would be admitting that Luther was right.

Below is scriptural proof one does not need a priest or pope to grant forgiveness.

Romans 8:1(a) There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus,(b) who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit. 2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made me free from the law of sin and death. 3 For what the law could not do in that it was weak through the flesh, God did by sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, on account of sin: He condemned sin in the flesh, 4 that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit. NKJV

The underlined part was not in the original text that Paul wrote. By John 3:18 Romans 8:1a is a correct statement without the b part. The law of the Spirit of life in Christ means just that. If one has the Spirit of Christ they are in Christ and they are not condemned, they have eternal life. Not condemned means they are not in sin.

Romans 8:10 And if Christ is in you, the body is dead because of sin, but the Spirit is life because of righteousness. 11 But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who dwells in you. NKJV

If we are in the Spirit, Romans 8: 4, the law of sin and death is fulfilled in us, by the Father keeping us alive. As long as we are in the flesh we are in sin. God looks at us thru Jesus, who is dead, therefore, God considers us dead in Christ and does not impute sin to us. Once a person is in Jesus, God does not impute sin to them. That means they will be sinless, as far as God is concerned, until they die in Christ.

Romans 8:12 Therefore, brethren, we are debtors — not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh. 13 For if you live according to the flesh you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live. 14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God. NKJV

The part in bold is why I know that I know that I am a son of God. I have several sins put to death. I know that one of them was entirely put to death by the Spirit. When I first came in to Jesus I was told that I had to repent of my sins to be saved. One of my sins was especially grievous to me. I would repent then do it again I would repent, do it, repent, do it over and over for at least 20 years. Finally, in desperation I cried out to the lord and asked if I was truly saved? As soon as I cried out a thought passed through my mind “you love the brethren.”

1 John 3:13 Do not marvel, my brethren, if the world hates you. 14 We know that we have passed from death to life, because we love the brethren. NKJV

I believe that God answered my question. I have not been bothered by that sin since I got the message. My spirit could not put it to death. His Spirit out it to death.

Romans 8 also tells me that the Father considers me sinless, no condemnation to me. therefore, I have no need to have an intercessor. Yes, I am in the flesh and am sold under sin. I am still a sinner but God does not impute sin to me. Through Jesus' blood covering my sins, and my continuing to confess my sinfulness and asking for forgiveness, God will not impute sins to me.

The Father did not draw me.

John 12:32 And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all peoples to Myself." NKJV

Jesus drew me, as He drew Paul in Acts and called him by name. The Father does not draw people in the NT.

John 6:37 All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will by no means cast out. NKJV

The Father did give me to Jesus. The Father drew those to Jesus when He walked on earth among the Jews. Now the Father gives the elect to Jesus.

Deuteronomy 4:2 You shall not add to the word which I command you, nor take from it, that you may keep the commandments of the Lord your God which I command you. NKJV

Revelation 22:18 For I testify to everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: If anyone adds to these things, God will add to him the plagues that are written in this book. NKJV

The elect are all taught by the Father to go to Jesus. After that we are taught by the word of God. All the word of God is contained from the beginning to the end in the Bible.

If you are praying for me to believe the wrong doctrine of the Catholics, you can quit. I am praying for God to teach you the truth.

I like how you share your reasoning and I certainly do not want to to believe wrong doctrine. You say you believe the scriptures, I would like you to be consistent and not just put a scriptural label on wrong reasoning. Wrong reasoning leads to wrong conclusions.
Scripture is consistent, and we must take it in whole to see the truth it reveals. In order to have a discussion, we must agree on the meaning of terms. That is the basis of philosophy aka the love of knowledge and the basis of human communication. If we don’t agree on meaning, then we talk past each other and nothing is accomplished.
First, we know that the Bible was not written in English. What we have today are translations. Do we agree on that?
The translations that we have are just projections of what the translators who read the original text believe that it was trying to say. The translations are not the scriptures themselves. Does that make sense?
If we read them in English only, we have the translator’s view, then when we put our reasoning on that translator’s view, our conclusion is even further away from what the original scripture was meant to say.
English aids our understanding, but it is not all that we need to gain full understanding of scripture. To get that, we need context. Where was it written, when was it written, to whom was it written?
Take for example your use of Matthew 1:24-25. The scripture does not say that Joseph knew Mary. It only says that he did not know her from the time period of when he took her as a wife and when Jesus was born. It says nothing about what happened after Jesus was born. There is no scripture that says and then Joseph knew he wife and bore him a son named such and such. It is only our human reasoning that concludes this. Would that be consistent with the rest of scripture?
Let us examine our reasoning. We know that God issued a command that states, Thou shalt not commit adultery. That is not in dispute. We also know that if a woman has children by two different fathers while both fathers are still alive, she is,by definition,
an adulteress.
If we believe that Mary had other children to Joseph, then we would be labeling the mother of God an adulteress, although a secret one, because the world At the time believed Jesus to be Joseph’s son. That doesn’t seem right
Would God who commanded that we not commit adultery, allow his own mother to be an adulteress? God forbid! Even early Protestants like Luther and Calvin believed Mary to be a perpetual virgin. It is only our flawed human reasoning of an English translation that has allowed us to even consider such a thought.
To gain a better understanding of who Mary is, we must allow scripture to reveal it, not our biased reasoning of a translation. We are subject to scripture, scripture is not subject to us, else we place ourselves above God
We compare 2 Samuel 6 with Luke 1 and can see the parallels. The Ark of the Covenant came to David. Within the Ark of the Covenant were the tablets of the Ten Commandments, some manna from heaven, and Aaron’s rod that budded, indicating priestly authority. Within Mary was Our Lord Jesus Christ, the living Word of God, the bread of life and our great high priest. It seems pretty consistent.
In Christianity, we believe in the hypostatic union. Jesus is fully man and fully God. God told us He would come to Earth through Mary from the words of Genesis 3:15. We do not believe that Jesus is divine spirit only or human only, but fully both at the same time. He achieves this state by His own decree, not ours. I will put enmity between thee and the woman, between your seed and her seed….
Jesus’ divinity is not separated from His humanity, nor vice versa. It is a permanent union, so we say with confidence, Hail Kecaritomene (Mary, full of grace), the Lord is with thee (Luke 1:28). She is permanently joined to God. We can see that she is daughter of the Father, mother of the Son, and spouse of the Holy Spirt (Luke 1:35)
David danced before the Ark, John the Baptist lept at the sound of Mary’s voice

Considering men were struck dead at even touching the Ark, regardless of intention, do you think Joseph would even consider touching God’s mother, let alone the spouse of the Holy Spirit? Scripture never said that he did, and I find it more likely that he didn’t
If I had a child with another man’s wife, I could reasonably expect to get clobbered or even killed. How much more dreadful would it be to consider intercourse with God’s spouse?

If we believe Mary had intercourse with Joseph, it’s understandable due to ignorance, but once we take scripture in full context and can contemplate the implications, it would take complete lack of humility and lack of fear of the Lord to continue to believe it

That is why I pray for you, brother

I will answer the other objections in your post when I have time

fli · May 17, 2025

boughtwithaprice said:
I like the way you reveal your reasoning rather than make blanket assertions. You do not do it on purpose, but there are minor errors in your reasoning that wind up changing the whole argument.
First, we can agree that Martin Luther is not God, he is subject to error and truth does not demand that he be found 100% right or 100% wrong. We need to understand what was happening at the time, and what the terms mean to gain understanding.
Luther objected to a priest abusing the ability to grant indulgences in order to extort money from the poor. He did not dispute the authority to grant the indulgence in the first place.
That leads to questions what is an indulgence and where does the authority to grant it come from?

I like how you share your reasoning and I certainly do not want to to believe wrong doctrine. You say you believe the scriptures, I would like you to be consistent and not just put a scriptural label on wrong reasoning. Wrong reasoning leads to wrong conclusions.
Scripture is consistent, and we must take it in whole to see the truth it reveals. In order to have a discussion, we must agree on the meaning of terms. That is the basis of philosophy aka the love of knowledge and the basis of human communication. If we don’t agree on meaning, then we talk past each other and nothing is accomplished.
First, we know that the Bible was not written in English. What we have today are translations. Do we agree on that?
The translations that we have are just projections of what the translators who read the original text believe that it was trying to say. The translations are not the scriptures themselves. Does that make sense?
If we read them in English only, we have the translator’s view, then when we put our reasoning on that translator’s view, our conclusion is even further away from what the original scripture was meant to say.
English aids our understanding, but it is not all that we need to gain full understanding of scripture. To get that, we need context. Where was it written, when was it written, to whom was it written?
Take for example your use of Matthew 1:24-25. The scripture does not say that Joseph knew Mary. It only says that he did not know her from the time period of when he took her as a wife and when Jesus was born. It says nothing about what happened after Jesus was born. There is no scripture that says and then Joseph knew he wife and bore him a son named such and such. It is only our human reasoning that concludes this. Would that be consistent with the rest of scripture?
Let us examine our reasoning. We know that God issued a command that states, Thou shalt not commit adultery. That is not in dispute. We also know that if a woman has children by two different fathers while both fathers are still alive, she is,by definition,
an adulteress.
If we believe that Mary had other children to Joseph, then we would be labeling the mother of God an adulteress, although a secret one, because the world At the time believed Jesus to be Joseph’s son. That doesn’t seem right
Would God who commanded that we not commit adultery, allow his own mother to be an adulteress? God forbid! Even early Protestants like Luther and Calvin believed Mary to be a perpetual virgin. It is only our flawed human reasoning of an English translation that has allowed us to even consider such a thought.
To gain a better understanding of who Mary is, we must allow scripture to reveal it, not our biased reasoning of a translation. We are subject to scripture, scripture is not subject to us, else we place ourselves above God
We compare 2 Samuel 6 with Luke 1 and can see the parallels. The Ark of the Covenant came to David. Within the Ark of the Covenant were the tablets of the Ten Commandments, some manna from heaven, and Aaron’s rod that budded, indicating priestly authority. Within Mary was Our Lord Jesus Christ, the living Word of God, the bread of life and our great high priest. It seems pretty consistent.
In Christianity, we believe in the hypostatic union. Jesus is fully man and fully God. God told us He would come to Earth through Mary from the words of Genesis 3:15. We do not believe that Jesus is divine spirit only or human only, but fully both at the same time. He achieves this state by His own decree, not ours. I will put enmity between thee and the woman, between your seed and her seed….
Jesus’ divinity is not separated from His humanity, nor vice versa. It is a permanent union, so we say with confidence, Hail Kecaritomene (Mary, full of grace), the Lord is with thee (Luke 1:28). She is permanently joined to God. We can see that she is daughter of the Father, mother of the Son, and spouse of the Holy Spirt (Luke 1:35)
David danced before the Ark, John the Baptist lept at the sound of Mary’s voice

Considering men were struck dead at even touching the Ark, regardless of intention, do you think Joseph would even consider touching God’s mother, let alone the spouse of the Holy Spirit? Scripture never said that he did, and I find it more likely that he didn’t
If I had a child with another man’s wife, I could reasonably expect to get clobbered or even killed. How much more dreadful would it be to consider intercourse with God’s spouse?

If we believe Mary had intercourse with Joseph, it’s understandable due to ignorance, but once we take scripture in full context and can contemplate the implications, it would take complete lack of humility and lack of fear of the Lord to continue to believe it

That is why I pray for you, brother

I will answer the other objections in your post when I have time

Yes I know that none of the scripture was written in English. I also know that we are very near the end times. And I know that nothing is done in the world that is not ordained by God. God would not leave His end times church without a reliable bible that could get them into Heaven. I have 43 english translations in my computer. I compare them, Most all state the same thing for any given scripture. Some in 7 or 8 words. And some in 10 to 20 words.

John 6:45 It is written in the prophets, 'And they shall all be taught by God.' Therefore everyone who has heard and learned from the Father comes to Me. NKJV

That tells me people who are truly saved are saved because they are taught by God. I do not have to know multiple languages to under stand the bible. All I need is a God ordained bible to those He loves to understand what I must do. So if you choose to pray for me pray that I know the truth, That is what I pray for others.

If Joseph never had relations with Mary the scripture would say"And Joseph never knew Mary." I'm sure that could be said in Latin, Greek Hebrew or aramaic.

Thank you for your prayers. I'll pray for you to know the truth.

boughtwithaprice · May 20, 2025

fli said:
Yes I know that none of the scripture was written in English. I also know that we are very near the end times. And I know that nothing is done in the world that is not ordained by God. God would not leave His end times church without a reliable bible that could get them into Heaven. I have 43 english translations in my computer. I compare them, Most all state the same thing for any given scripture. Some in 7 or 8 words. And some in 10 to 20 words.

John 6:45 It is written in the prophets, 'And they shall all be taught by God.' Therefore everyone who has heard and learned from the Father comes to Me. NKJV

That tells me people who are truly saved are saved because they are taught by God. I do not have to know multiple languages to under stand the bible. All I need is a God ordained bible to those He loves to understand what I must do. So if you choose to pray for me pray that I know the truth, That is what I pray for others.

If Joseph never had relations with Mary the scripture would say"And Joseph never knew Mary." I'm sure that could be said in Latin, Greek Hebrew or aramaic.

Thank you for your prayers. I'll pray for you to know the truth.

The scripture does say that Joseph did not know Mary. It does not say that he did. It is our comprehension of the word until that makes us think he did, but that is not the case
If you compare the scripture in 2 Samuel it says that Saul’s daughter did not have children until the day of her death, would that mean she had children after? Of course not
Scripture does not say that Joseph knew Mary. Our flawed understanding does
Scripture was written to confirm that Jesus was born to a virgin. It says nothing about her losing her virginity after Jesus was born. It was written to remove all doubt as to weather Jesus could be the son of Joseph. There is no mention about anything else.
I’ll grant you that it does not say that she remained a virgin either, but scripture taken as a whole would lead us to believe that she is a perpetual virgin
She had such an intimate relationship with God, it would be unthinkable for her to have relations with a man. Just think, the creator of the universe impregnated her, was born to her and suckled at her breast. To imagine what that was like, we can read Song of Solomon as the relationship between Jesus and Mary. “Who is she that cometh forth like the morning rising, fair as the moon, bright as the sun, terrible as an army set in array? SoS 6:9

fli · May 20, 2025

boughtwithaprice said:
The scripture does say that Joseph did not know Mary. It does not say that he did. It is our comprehension of the word until that makes us think he did, but that is not the case
If you compare the scripture in 2 Samuel it says that Saul’s daughter did not have children until the day of her death, would that mean she had children after? Of course not
Scripture does not say that Joseph knew Mary. Our flawed understanding does
Scripture was written to confirm that Jesus was born to a virgin. It says nothing about her losing her virginity after Jesus was born. It was written to remove all doubt as to weather Jesus could be the son of Joseph. There is no mention about anything else.
I’ll grant you that it does not say that she remained a virgin either, but scripture taken as a whole would lead us to believe that she is a perpetual virgin
She had such an intimate relationship with God, it would be unthinkable for her to have relations with a man. Just think, the creator of the universe impregnated her, was born to her and suckled at her breast. To imagine what that was like, we can read Song of Solomon as the relationship between Jesus and Mary. “Who is she that cometh forth like the morning rising, fair as the moon, bright as the sun, terrible as an army set in array? SoS 6:9

You say my thinking is flawed. No one would believe if a woman did not have childre until she died would indicate that she had children after she died. Only a person trying to prove a flawed docrine would use that arguement. If I said that the English did not come to the Americas till Columbus discovered the Americas . Does that mean they never come to the new world?

The Holy Spirit did not become one with Mary. She was still a virgin which proves the impregnationm was not a sexual union. You can go ahead and believe your doctrine, just don't expect me to believe people who accepted that the Popes were Apostles without the signs of an apostles, I am not as naive as they are.

Luke 20:30 And the second took her as wife, and he died childless. 31 Then the third took her, and in like manner the seven also; and they left no children, and died. 32 Last of all the woman died also. 33 Therefore, in the resurrection, whose wife does she become? For all seven had her as wife." 34 Jesus answered and said to them, "The sons of this age marry and are given in marriage. 35 But those who are counted worthy to attain that age, and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry nor are given in marriage; 36 nor can they die anymore, for they are equal to the angels and are sons of God, being sons of the resurrection. NKJV

So just which one of the woman's former husbands was her husband in heaven? It seems that she was not the wife of any of the,m. It also sounds as though if people do not accept God's plan for heaven, that they would have same sex marriages as they are all sons.

boughtwithaprice · May 20, 2025

fli said:
You say my thinking is flawed. No one would believe if a woman did not have childre until she died would indicate that she had children after she died. Only a person trying to prove a flawed docrine would use that arguement. If I said that the English did not come to the Americas till Columbus discovered the Americas . Does that mean they never come to the new world?

The Holy Spirit did not become one with Mary. She was still a virgin which proves the impregnationm was not a sexual union. You can go ahead and believe your doctrine, just don't expect me to believe people who accepted that the Popes were Apostles without the signs of an apostles, I am not as naive as they are.

Luke 20:30 And the second took her as wife, and he died childless. 31 Then the third took her, and in like manner the seven also; and they left no children, and died. 32 Last of all the woman died also. 33 Therefore, in the resurrection, whose wife does she become? For all seven had her as wife." 34 Jesus answered and said to them, "The sons of this age marry and are given in marriage. 35 But those who are counted worthy to attain that age, and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry nor are given in marriage; 36 nor can they die anymore, for they are equal to the angels and are sons of God, being sons of the resurrection. NKJV

So just which one of the woman's former husbands was her husband in heaven? It seems that she was not the wife of any of the,m. It also sounds as though if people do not accept God's plan for heaven, that they would have same sex marriages as they are all sons.

I am not asking you to accept my doctrine
I am only pointing out that scripture does not say that Joseph knew Mary. That is your thinking and your interpretation based on your own understanding, on which scripture does instruct us not to lean on

You cannot say that you believe sola scriptura and then use that argument to make the scripture say what it does not.

Since it is not scripture, what then is the basis for your belief? That is the question that you need to ask yourself. There is no need to believe my doctrine in order to answer it.
Scripture tells us to always be ready to give a reason for the hope that you have.

If you want to know truth, then you need to first be honest with yourself

Believe Jesus' testimony and certify God is true

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The Catholic Church condemned the selling of indulgences, the Church and Luther were both right on that one. An indulgence was granted for charitable acts, and when money was involved it could occasionally lead to abuses, and there were abuses during Luther's time.​

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The Catholic Church condemned the selling of indulgences, the Church and Luther were both right on that one. An indulgence was granted for charitable acts, and when money was involved it could occasionally lead to abuses, and there were abuses during Luther's time.​

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The Catholic Church condemned the selling of indulgences, the Church and Luther were both right on that one. An indulgence was granted for charitable acts, and when money was involved it could occasionally lead to abuses, and there were abuses during Luther's time.

The Catholic Church condemned the selling of indulgences, the Church and Luther were both right on that one. An indulgence was granted for charitable acts, and when money was involved it could occasionally lead to abuses, and there were abuses during Luther's time.