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Trump threatens Harvard's tax-exempt status after freezing $2bn funding, demands apology

rjs330

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It's encouraging that they would exhibit that level of moral compass in the face of a tough job market.
Yeah i guess its up to them if they want to buy food or not or have a place to live. I wonder how they are eating or where they are living without a job.
Good for them.
Yeah, I am all for them standing firm. As long as no one else is having to foot their bill.
So what? What percentage of them are MAGAcrats who bring their politics and their religion to work?
I don't think that was part of the reasons they gave. I think they just said they wouldn't work for one. Most people don't bring their politics or religion to work and expect others to believe the same. It sounds like these Gen Zers are the ones actually bringing their politics to work. Not the other way around.
What social contract? What is it that they can't change? Who says so?
Who do you think is paying taxes for our safety nets that these Gen Zers are thinking we should have?
 
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rjs330

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You actually have to work and pay into the system to get Social Security. the size of your benefit depends on how much you work.
You also have to work in order to help your neighbor collect theirs.
As the free market in action. If a Republican boss wants to create a "Republican" moral environment at work then he has to face the fact that some people won't work for him under those conditions.
Still pointing out that wasnt what was driving them not to work.
 
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rjs330

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I think that is dumb.
Glad you think so, but that seems to be be one of the problems with this generation.

Demanding companies support the political agendas they want, but then demand that people keep their politics out of the workplace.

Yeah that's dumb.
 
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BCP1928

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Glad you think so, but that seems to be be one of the problems with this generation.

Demanding companies support the political agendas they want, but then demand that people keep their politics out of the workplace.

Yeah that's dumb.
Sounds to me like they are negotiating for working conditions. Too bad it isn't the unified mass movement you are trying to portray--what they really need is a strong union.
 
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ThatRobGuy

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I think that is dumb.
Yeah, I wouldn't want to be in management at a company that was dipping their toes in political waters, like I said, it'd be nothing but headaches and if you're in a sector that is apolitical and with no need for it.


Is it even the least bit possible that "everyone in a leadership position should be taking a political stand" (particularly "taking a stand that's on our side") is a mentality that younger people developed in college, at least to some degree? (to dovetail this into what's been discussed thus far)

If professors (and course curriculums) are injecting more and more political themes into classes or participating in the activism themselves alongside the students in some cases, does that maybe skew perceptions of how things actually shake out in the post-college world?

There has been something of an uptick of professors either siding with the students, or sometimes even jumping in the protests themselves against the school administration in certain cases.



I guess where I'm going with that...

Does four years of "The professors and faculty gave us a pat on the back took our side against the school administration/political rivals (and sometimes even actively protested with us)" eventually set up the lead-in for the unrealistic expectation of "the VP of Finance at the company should be taking our side in the fight against the political entities we don't like and sharing our advocacy passions"?


The dynamic of being in a place where "The older adults, sr. people, and authority figures who agree with all of my views and will take my side outnumber the ones who don't by 5:1"...to basically going into an environment where that ratio is flipped on its head (70% corporate leadership team members for S&P 1500 orgs lean republican according to that WaPo article I linked)

Being inside of an ideologically cohesive bubble, and then quickly entering a non-bubbled environment, can be something of a rough wake-up call for people.
 
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rambot

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Yeah, I wouldn't want to be in management at a company that was dipping their toes in political waters, like I said, it'd be nothing but headaches and if you're in a sector that is apolitical and with no need for it.


Is it even the least bit possible that "everyone in a leadership position should be taking a political stand" (particularly "taking a stand that's on our side") is a mentality that younger people developed in college, at least to some degree? (to dovetail this into what's been discussed thus far)

If professors (and course curriculums) are injecting more and more political themes into classes or participating in the activism themselves alongside the students in some cases, does that maybe skew perceptions of how things actually shake out in the post-college world?
No. It didn't for me. I attended protests and though my professors didn't, they encouraged me too and in a few instances voiced agreement.

There has been something of an uptick of professors either siding with the students, or sometimes even jumping in the protests themselves against the school administration in certain cases.



I guess where I'm going with that...

Does four years of "The professors and faculty gave us a pat on the back took our side against the school administration/political rivals (and sometimes even actively protested with us)" eventually set up the lead-in for the unrealistic expectation of "the VP of Finance at the company should be taking our side in the fight against the political entities we don't like and sharing our advocacy passions"?
Ok. I see where you're going with this. You seem to be suggesting that this is a university skewing issue but the fact is that if we are talking about 80% of kiddoes wanting companies to do that, this would include individuals from ALL SIDES of the spectrum.
 
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rambot

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Glad you think so, but that seems to be be one of the problems with this generation.

Demanding companies support the political agendas they want, but then demand that people keep their politics out of the workplace.

Yeah that's dumb.
Understand this happens on both sides of the political spectrum of course.
 
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ThatRobGuy

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Sounds to me like they are negotiating for working conditions. Too bad it isn't the unified mass movement you are trying to portray--what they really need is a strong union.
Shouldn't working conditions have more to do with the nature of the job itself, and not be about extraneous matters?

"Hey, they're only giving us 30 minutes for lunch at the Amazon warehouse, and it takes 12 minutes just to walk to the lunchroom...we need to get an hour for lunch" is a valid conditions gripe.

"They don't stock Band-Aids on the shop floor" would be another.


"Hey, I work in accounts payable for a company that makes pretzels, and even though the CFO has been completely reasonable and fair with regards to this job, I saw on his wife's Facebook page that they vacationed at Mar-a-Lago 3 years ago, I demand change!!!" -- isn't a valid working conditions gripe.

"Working in a building and being triggered because you found out somebody voted for the other political party" isn't an OSHA violation -- yet.
 
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BCP1928

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Shouldn't working conditions have more to do with the nature of the job itself, and not be about extraneous matters?
Like, maybe, having to tolerate discriminatory practices in the workplace?
t
"Hey, they're only giving us 30 minutes for lunch at the Amazon warehouse, and it takes 12 minutes just to walk to the lunchroom...we need to get an hour for lunch" is a valid conditions gripe.

"They don't stock Band-Aids on the shop floor" would be another.


"Hey, I work in accounts payable for a company that makes pretzels, and even though the CFO has been completely reasonable and fair with regards to this job, I saw on his wife's Facebook page that they vacationed at Mar-a-Lago 3 years ago, I demand change!!!" -- isn't a valid working conditions gripe.

"Working in a building and being triggered because you found out somebody voted for the other political party" isn't an OSHA violation -- yet.
Those examples are just silly.
 
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Belk

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Of course we do. But then we also may not get to eat or have a place to live. Our personal beliefs only go so far as out empty bellies or sleeping on the sidewalk.

I would say they go so far as we are willing to take them. There were certainly plenty of Christian saints who had no worries about empty bellies or sleeping outside in order to further their beliefs,.
Suddenly working for a republican voter isn't so bad.
I think that is up the individual and what they are willing to endure. Personally I know plenty of wonderful republicans. I have meet many questionable democrats. Jury is still out on the MAGA types.
 
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ThatRobGuy

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Ok. I see where you're going with this. You seem to be suggesting that this is a university skewing issue but the fact is that if we are talking about 80% of kiddoes wanting companies to do that, this would include individuals from ALL SIDES of the spectrum.

Yes, but that spectrum for Gen Z isn't the same as it is for the general population.

Among Gen Z -
67% went to college
only 21% identify as republican

So just by virtue of the numbers themselves, anytime we're talking about 80% of Gen Z (for anything), we're talking about a mostly "has attended college" progressive/liberal cohort of people.


It'd be sort of like touching on something that was an issue with cohort of "NRA Members" (another cohort that's heavily skewed to one side). If we were talking about issue pertaining a way of thinking potential ideological flaw that existed among "80% of NRA members", practically speaking, we'd be talking about a Republican issue...because even if the full 12% of NRA members who are democrats (yes, they do exist somehow) were part of that 80% being mentioned, they's still only represent a sliver of the problem being discussed in comparison to Republicans.


And furthermore, based on the follow-up questions asked from that same link I shared before, I think it's very safe to say that the kinds of "the company leadership should get involved and take my side" sentiments is overwhelmingly from the democratic side of GenZ given the particular issues they mentioned.

For that 80% of Gen Z that said they wanted company to actively engage in political stuff... they were asked which issues they wanted those companies to engage in.

The top answers:
racial justice, LGBTQ+ rights, climate justice, and campaign finance reform.

I'd be highly shocked if any noteworthy amount of those responses were coming from the 21% of Gen Z'ers that identify as republicans. (although I guess anything's possible)
 
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RocksInMyHead

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Spending on entertainment​

The estimated average amount Gen Z spent on entertainment was $157.07 per month, amounting to $1,884.84 per year, which includes streaming services, music, gaming and similar products.

Spending on social events​

When it came to spending on socializing like eating out or going to a bar or club, the estimated average amount Gen Z spent was $166.75 per month, or just over $2,000 per year.

Shopping for clothes, cosmetics and gadgets​

Survey respondents were asked how much money they typically spend on shopping for clothes, cosmetics, gadgets and similar items each month. The estimated average amount Gen Z spent on these items was $178.11 per month.

Spending on pets​

A 2022 survey found that Gen Z spends an average of $1,885 ($157.08 per month) on their pets every year. This is more than every other generation surveyed. (AAHA)


That comes in at a ball-park figure just shy of $700/month when added up.
It should be noted that these appear to be simple averages (mean), and that a relatively small percentage of big spenders is throwing things off a bit. Median spending would probably be more representative, and looking at the numbers, would probably land no higher than the $80-$100 range for all of those categories. A person spending $1000+/month on entertainment probably isn't living with their parents or struggling to pay rent. Also, keep in mind the high cost of individual items. For example, a new phone, even if you're getting a "budget" model, is still around $400-$500. So if you get a phone, that's ~$50/month in gadget spending for the year right there. And yes, I'm aware there are cheaper options, but we're talking about the mainstream consumer here.
 
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ThatRobGuy

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Like, maybe, having to tolerate discriminatory practices in the workplace?

Those examples are just silly.
But discriminatory practices weren't what was mentioned, and we already have laws against those.

They said they wouldn't work for someone who has different politics from them.


So if the example you labelled as "silly" isn't the type of thing they're referring to, and discriminatory practices are already prohibited by law, what exactly is the nature of their concern?
 
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RocksInMyHead

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Yes, but that spectrum for Gen Z isn't the same as it is for the general population.

Among Gen Z -
67% went to college
only 21% identify as republican
I suspect that might have a lot to do with the fact that, for the entire adult lives of Gen Zers, "Republican" has been synonymous with "Trump/MAGA". The oldest of the Gen Z cohort were 19 in 2016. The youngest are still teenagers today.
 
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ThatRobGuy

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It should be noted that these appear to be simple averages (mean), and that a relatively small percentage of big spenders is throwing things off a bit. Median spending would probably be more representative, and looking at the numbers, would probably land no higher than the $80-$100 range for all of those categories. A person spending $1000+/month on entertainment probably isn't living with their parents or struggling to pay rent. Also, keep in mind the high cost of individual items. For example, a new phone, even if you're getting a "budget" model, is still around $400-$500. So if you get a phone, that's ~$50/month in gadget spending for the year right there. And yes, I'm aware there are cheaper options, but we're talking about the mainstream consumer here.
Seems like the big spenders were a very small portion of the pie. (usually only making up 5-6%), I question that how much that would really throw off the average by any huge amount.

The "meat" of it was more concentrated in the middle (much closer to the cited averages)




But there are other sources that delve into it in more general terms.

Nonessential spending emerges as a prominent issue for younger consumers, particularly among members of Gen Z. A notable 29% of Gen Z consumers living paycheck to paycheck cite nonessential spending as one of the factors contributing to their financial distress, with 15% citing it as the top factor, marking them the most affected demographic.

“With ongoing inflation requiring consumers to tighten their belts, nonessential spending can mean the difference between living paycheck to paycheck or not,” said Alia Dudum, LendingClub’s Money Expert. “It’s prudent for all consumers — especially those in younger generations who are more apt to indulge in nonessential spending — to regularly assess their spending habits and remain mindful of the compounding effect nonessential spending can have on their overall financial stability. If not careful, this type of frequent spending behavior can quickly snowball into bigger and lasting debts.”
 
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BCP1928

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Yes, but that spectrum for Gen Z isn't the same as it is for the general population.

Among Gen Z -
67% went to college
only 21% identify as republican

So just by virtue of the numbers themselves, anytime we're talking about 80% of Gen Z (for anything), we're talking about a mostly "has attended college" progressive/liberal cohort of people.


It'd be sort of like touching on something that was an issue with cohort of "NRA Members" (another cohort that's heavily skewed to one side). If we were talking about issue pertaining a way of thinking potential ideological flaw that existed among "80% of NRA members", practically speaking, we'd be talking about a Republican issue...because even if the full 12% of NRA members who are democrats (yes, they do exist somehow) were part of that 80% being mentioned, they's still only represent a sliver of the problem being discussed in comparison to Republicans.


And furthermore, based on the follow-up questions asked from that same link I shared before, I think it's very safe to say that the kinds of "the company leadership should get involved and take my side" sentiments is overwhelmingly from the democratic side of GenZ given the particular issues they mentioned.

For that 80% of Gen Z that said they wanted company to actively engage in political stuff... they were asked which issues they wanted those companies to engage in.

The top answers:
racial justice, LGBTQ+ rights, climate justice, and campaign finance reform.

I'd be highly shocked if any noteworthy amount of those responses were coming from the 21% of Gen Z'ers that identify as republicans. (although I guess anything's possible)
A Republican who is also a Christian might be expected to support the first and the last two at least. Indeed, none of them should be partisan political issues--except, perhaps, the last.
 
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ThatRobGuy

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A Republican who is also a Christian might be expected to support the first and the last two at least. Indeed, none of them should be partisan political issues--except, perhaps, the last.
Depends on the context with which those issues are being discussed and the proposed legislative solutions (and the very loosely related extraneous initiatives that get lumped in with it)

That's really what turns "shouldn't be political" issues into very political ones.

Typically, that's comes down to the proposals, and where they fall into the to the spectrum of "positive rights and negative rights" if folks are familiar with that concept (and that doesn't refer to positive/negative as in "good/bad")

Negative rights: Rights that oblige inaction and are not zero-sum game.
- ex: freedom of speech. there's not a "finite amount of speech" therefore me having that right doesn't diminish that right for anyone else.
- the right to be protected against unreasonable search: me having that right wouldn't require them to perform more unreasonable searches against you

Positive rights: Rights that oblige actions of others or require someone else to give something up, and can be a zero-sum game.
- ex: "there should be a right to healthcare" would require other people to chip in and a government to administer it

When a problem/issue is discussed, when the proposal falls in realm of positive rights, then it becomes a political issue.


So, to use examples you highlighted, racial justice.

Laws aimed at prohibiting police discrimination, ending qualified immunity for cops would examples of negative rights that have been proposed in the name of solving that.

Laws aimed at trying to do things like establish reparations, or establish a hiring quota are positive rights, in that they are requiring someone else to give something up in order for another person to get something.


on the LGBTQ+ issues.
Laws preventing discrimination against couples seeking marriage licenses would be negative rights, as there's no finite cap on marriage licenses, and a gay couple getting married isn't preventing anyone else from getting married.

However, the locker room one would be an interesting case that would definitely highlight the zero-sum game nature of positive rights.

Jane, a transwoman says she has a right to use the women's locker room, because she wants the right to have a locker room environment that makes her comfortable.

Sally, a ciswoman, says she's uncomfortable with that, because she wants the right to have a locker room environment that she feels comfortable in.

No matter which way you slice it, one person's right to comfort is going to happen at the expense of the other person's. Hence the reason it gets political, as both parties naturally will be looking to pull whichever levers are available to them to prioritize their competing interests.
 
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BCP1928

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Depends on the context with which those issues are being discussed and the proposed legislative solutions (and the very loosely related extraneous initiatives that get lumped in with it)

That's really what turns "shouldn't be political" issues into very political ones.

Typically, that's comes down to the proposals, and where they fall into the to the spectrum of "positive rights and negative rights" if folks are familiar with that concept (and that doesn't refer to positive/negative as in "good/bad")

Negative rights: Rights that oblige inaction and are not zero-sum game.
- ex: freedom of speech. there's not a "finite amount of speech" therefore me having that right doesn't diminish that right for anyone else.
- the right to be protected against unreasonable search: me having that right wouldn't require them to perform more unreasonable searches against you

Positive rights: Rights that oblige actions of others or require someone else to give something up, and can be a zero-sum game.
- ex: "there should be a right to healthcare" would require other people to chip in and a government to administer it

When a problem/issue is discussed, when the proposal falls in realm of positive rights, then it becomes a political issue.


So, to use examples you highlighted, racial justice.

Laws aimed at prohibiting police discrimination, ending qualified immunity for cops would examples of negative rights that have been proposed in the name of solving that.

Laws aimed at trying to do things like establish reparations, or establish a hiring quota are positive rights, in that they are requiring someone else to give something up in order for another person to get something.


on the LGBTQ+ issues.
Laws preventing discrimination against couples seeking marriage licenses would be negative rights, as there's no finite cap on marriage licenses, and a gay couple getting married isn't preventing anyone else from getting married.

However, the locker room one would be an interesting case that would definitely highlight the zero-sum game nature of positive rights.

Jane, a transwoman says she has a right to use the women's locker room, because she wants the right to have a locker room environment that makes her comfortable.

Sally, a ciswoman, says she's uncomfortable with that, because she wants the right to have a locker room environment that she feels comfortable in.

No matter which way you slice it, one person's right to comfort is going to happen at the expense of the other person's. Hence the reason it gets political, as both parties naturally will be looking to pull whichever levers are available to them to prioritize their competing interests.
What about a person who feels uncomfortable if the company lets transwomen us the women's rest room. Would not a person who turned down a job offer from that company be just as "wrong" as the gen Zers you were talking about? What about Christian bakers and gay wedding cakes? County clerks and marriage licenses for gays?
 
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ThatRobGuy

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What about a person who feels uncomfortable if the company lets transwomen us the women's rest room. Would not a person who turned down a job offer from that company be just as "wrong" as the gen Zers you were talking about? What about Christian bakers and gay wedding cakes? County clerks and marriage licenses for gays?

Yes, if they've been voicing concerns about economic situations and putting emphasis on struggling to make ends meet, and they're turning down a paying job in their field for no other reasons than because a company lets a trans person in the bathroom, they're just as wrong as the Gen Z'ers I was talking about.


With regards to my stance on county clerks trying to deny marriage licenses, if you search for my username and "Kim Davis" (that was the high profile case where the Kentucky county clerk was trying to deny marriage licenses to gay couples), you'll see I've been pretty consistent on this. (albeit, a government employee is held to different standards, legally, than a person in the private sector).

Kim Davis was getting paid to be a clerk and issue licenses, her refusal to do so because she disagreed with court ruling was out of bounds.


The Colorado Baker situation was a different set of circumstances and not an apples-to-apples (which we can get into if you'd like)
 
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rjs330

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Like, maybe, having to tolerate discriminatory practices in the workplace?
I don't believe that was even part of the issue. It was merely politics. And it sounds like they wanted their bosses and companies to participate in political movements or agendas. Well, only certain ones. Then they didn't want their bosses to be political on things they didn't support.

I demand my boss not be political, and I demand my boss be political.
 
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