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Who has the burden of proof in a debate?

tonychanyt

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Let P1 be a proposition.

Who has the burden of proof?

If A1 asserts P1, then A1 has the burden of proof.
If D1 denies P1, then D1 has the burden of proof.

Whoever asserts a claim, either positively or negatively, has the burden of proof.

If you say there is a God, you have the burden of proof.
If you say there is no God, you have the burden of proof.
If you say you don't know, then you don't have the burden of proof.

This is different from a legal court case, where you are assumed to be innocent until proven guilty. The accused does not need to prove his innocence.
 
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BCP1928

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What's your proof?
That the physical and life sciences neither affirm nor deny the existence of God. Consequently, discussing proofs of God is not on topic for this forum. QED.
 
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Aryeh Jay

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That the physical and life sciences neither affirm nor deny the existence of God. Consequently, discussing proofs of God is not on topic for this forum. QED.
Citation?
 
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Hans Blaster

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Feel free to suggest an appropriate sub-forum. :)

Since you keep using formal logic, I would suggest the "philosophy" forum.

(As for your titular question -- the person who goes first and argues the positive version of the question the debate is based on.)
 
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Aryeh Jay

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Hold on, there. If you are going to challenge my theory then the burden of proof is on you.
I have consulted the Marquess of Queensberry rules and can not find that.
 
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KevinT

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Let P1 be a proposition.

Who has the burden of proof?

If A1 asserts P1, then A1 has the burden of proof.
If D1 denies P1, then D1 has the burden of proof.

Whoever asserts a claim, either positively or negatively, has the burden of proof.

If you say there is a God, you have the burden of proof.
If you say there is no God, you have the burden of proof.
If you say you don't know, then you don't have the burden of proof.

This is different from a legal court case, where you are assumed to be innocent until proven guilty. The accused does not need to prove his innocence.

Unlike a legal case, this relates with trying to convince someone else of a particular fact.

Imagine I traveled back in time and tried to convince people from the 1700's that their theory of bodily humors was incorrect, and that they needed to believe a germ theory with bacteria, viruses etc. Imagine I arrange a lecture at a prominent university and get laughed off the stage. At that point, asking who has the burden of proof is beside the point. I could walk away and tell myself that I'm correct and that I have no further responsibility in trying to teach them and lower infant mortality. I might convince myself that THEY have the burden of proof since I'm clearly right and they are clearly wrong. But that's not really the point. I have information that I want to share with them, and I should do all that I can, regardless if they are shirking their intellectual duty.

tl;dr -- there is no good answer to this question.

:)

KT
 
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Richard T

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I'm trained in the social sciences. Very little can be proven. Instead you use the terms correlated, associated with, possible link etc. An example is the law of demand in economics. There are some goods where if you raise the price, the demand is greater. Also, called a Veblen or Giffen good. So this is unlike the laws of hard science, because human behavior is involved. It still can be useful though even if it is probabilistic. tendencies are important, that is why they apply them even to sports.
While I might argue that God proved Jesus' existence and resurrection as the bible is quite clear on that. I think that we ourselves have proof of our faith in our hearts. That kind of faith though is not proof to someone else. They have to find their own.
 
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sjastro

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Let P1 be a proposition.

Who has the burden of proof?

If A1 asserts P1, then A1 has the burden of proof.
If D1 denies P1, then D1 has the burden of proof.

Whoever asserts a claim, either positively or negatively, has the burden of proof.

If you say there is a God, you have the burden of proof.
If you say there is no God, you have the burden of proof.
If you say you don't know, then you don't have the burden of proof.

This is different from a legal court case, where you are assumed to be innocent until proven guilty. The accused does not need to prove his innocence.
If D1 is based on a denial, then the burden of proof in on A1 who is making the claim.
If however D1 is using a counterargument then the burden of proof can shift but leads to complications about proving a negative in this case the non existence of God.

Problems with proving a negative is not universal, the claim my cat has fleas and the counterargument your cat does not have fleas is one such example, the burden of proof can shift to the denial which can be evidence based.
Evidence for the non existence of God is far more problematical than the absence of fleas but since this a science not a philosophy forum the existence or non existence of God is unfalsifiable and therefore not applicable.
 
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Gene2memE

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Let P1 be a proposition.

Who has the burden of proof?

If A1 asserts P1, then A1 has the burden of proof.
If D1 denies P1, then D1 has the burden of proof.

Whoever asserts a claim, either positively or negatively, has the burden of proof.

If you say there is a God, you have the burden of proof.
If you say there is no God, you have the burden of proof.
If you say you don't know, then you don't have the burden of proof.

This is different from a legal court case, where you are assumed to be innocent until proven guilty. The accused does not need to prove his innocence.

What if I say 'I don't believe you', or 'I don't accept your claim to be true'?
 
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sjastro

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Good question.

Then I would follow up with: Are you asserting ¬P1?
If the statement is about the existence of God, then is ¬P1 there is no God, you have no burden of proof?

If this is the case then the argument is binary, either God exists or doesn't exist and neglects a third option, the science option of the existence or non existence of God being unfalsifiable where the burden of proof is inapplicable.
 
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Richard T

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I like your logic and need to establish that one idea is more of a possibility or completely correct versus another in a debate setting. A subset of that is how one theory or idea helps change a prominent hypothesis. This is illustrated best in Hegel's use of the dialectic to present new truth that might be lacking in a subject. Basically, when you have a challenge to the current standard way of thinking the Hegelian method includes the thesis, antithesis and finally a synthesis. Someone challenges the prominent idea, with the new. After the new idea gets kicked around a bit, tested more, and scrutinized over time is it rejected or it may later become the mainstream conclusion on that subject. To really win one has to show that their newer antithesis has enough merits that the majority adopt it. Sometimes it replaces the current mainstream thesis and sometimes it becomes an addendum. Where we often fail though is not in engaging in debate, but rather are we being creative and willing to test new ideas. We also fail to grasp sometimes what is the best question to even ask.

For illustration I use the hypothesis: What is the most significant change occurring in the contemporary church? Is it protestant thought overtaking Catholics? I personally accept both as a way to heaven though I know that some do not. Anyway, I might suggest that Martin Luther and Protestant theology has been somewhat the antithesis to the Catholic traditions for hundreds of years. Still, it has not been adopted by the majority. The current growth rate of Protestants however is 3.3% versus Catholics growth at 1.3%
Source: Growth of religion - Wikipedia
Current estimates are that there are one billion Catholics and 900 million Protestants. Estimates throughout this exercise vary widely, but I think the growth numbers exist no matter what base you start or finish at.

I could stop there and simply suggest that it looks like that after hundreds of years Protestant numbers may overtake Catholics? Still, just because one group becomes more prominent it does not mean that it is correct, it only means it is more popular. In this example so far, both groups are represented well but does it really tell us what is going on within Christianity today? If I ask: what is potentially the most significant change to contemporary churches, is there something different? What if I found a common denominator in church growth that had seemingly little to do with Catholic versus Protestant? I did and interestingly it is not new, it is a renewal of the old as it is closer to being back to the original early church. I didn't recall that the Hegel dialectic circles back to the beginning though often in a different form. Here is a quote in Reddit. "The consensus seems to be that Hegel's system is circular, which is taken as a kind of "proof" that his system is complete." https://www.reddit.com/r/askphilosophy/comments/21bn98 Now that is chilling. That the church may circle back to similar events to the time of Acts to complete her journey. Perhaps that the whole time we have been looking to much at differences in theology when in reality we are missing part of the promise of the Holy Spirit.

So let's examine the numbers of the growth in the charismatic Catholic renewal and the Pentecostal/Charismatics.

Charismatic Catholics
1970 – 2,000,000
1980 – 40,000,000
2000 – 119,910,000 Catholic Charismatic Renewal Worldwide Statistics - WWCCR
2013 - 160,000,000 Catholic Charismatic Renewal - Wikipedia

Charismatic Protestants.
1970 - 58 million
2021 -656 million. https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/full/10.1177/2396939320966220

So while it seems OK to consider the Hegel dialectic for how the mainstream is reacting to Christianity in terms of Catholic vs Protestants, the real movement for change or re-adoption in this case, is the same for both groups. That of charisma or the gifts of the Holy Spirit manifesting in both groups at a surprising rate.

"...according to scholar Peter L. Berger of Boston University "the spread of Pentecostal Christianity may be the fastest growing movement in the history of religion".[68] Growth of religion - Wikipedia

“At the heart of a world imbued with a rationalistic skepticism, a new experience of the Holy Spirit suddenly burst forth. And, since then, that experience has assumed a breadth of a worldwide Renewal movement.” -Pope Benedict XVI

Sorry for the length but the Hegelian method I think is quite good, even though employed by the likes of Karl Marx and other anti-Christian thinkers. Even the hard sciences use this at times. From flat earth to round earth would be an example I think. Here, I started out with what kind of differences over time might illustrate this method and ended up with the newest antithesis to the church which is not denominational necessarily but rather the circling back to the oldest tradition in the church, a more completeness of the Holy Spirit and the gifts it gives. God bless!

Acts 2:17 (KJV)
17 And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:

Acts 2:39 (KJV)
39 For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.
 
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Gene2memE

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Good question.

Then I would follow up with: Are you asserting ¬P1?

I'm not.

I'm responding to A1's assertion of P1. If I fail to accept that proposition as 'true', that doesn't mean that I'm taking up a directly contrary position that it is 'false'.

Consider the question of whether life exists on other planets. Someone assumes the proposition 'There's life on other planets'.

If I respond with 'I don't believe you' or 'I don't think that claim is true' I'm not taking a position that denies there is life on other planets. It's just that I don't see any reason to accept their positive claim. Life could, or could not exist on other planets. But, if I don't have enough information to judge whether either claim is likely true or not, then my best option is to not accept a positive claim either way.

It's a similar story with my atheism. I'm not making a positive claim that no God or gods exist. I'm saying that (so far) I don't believe any of the claims that assert that they do.

To put it another way: I'm not buying what you're selling, but I'm not trying to sell you anything either.
 
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