IDF kill Red Cross workers in Gaza

Friedrich Rubinstein said:

steps should be taken to prevent such misconduct from happening again in the future.

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Executing 14 emergency responders, (who unlike soldiers who go out to kill, they go out to save lives), then using heavy equipment to crush their vehicles, then dumping their vehicles and their bodies into a mass grave, is what you consider to be "misconduct", like the misconduct of grade-schoolers? For some killing Palestinians is no different than kids killing pet animals who must be disciplined for their "misconduct".

Canuckster said:

Executing 14 emergency responders, (who unlike soldiers who go out to kill, they go out to save lives), then using heavy equipment to crush their vehicles, then dumping their vehicles and their bodies into a mass grave, is what you consider to be "misconduct", like the misconduct of grade-schoolers? For some killing Palestinians is no different than kids killing pet animals who must be disciplined for their "misconduct".

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I didn't say anything about grade-schoolers. Not all misconduct is the same, obviously. Unlike some other people here apparently, I have read a lot about warfare in modern history, and it turns out that every army in the world today has bad apples among its soldiers who do things that are not aligned with standard operating procedures and proper conduct of war. The answer to that is not to denounce the entire military as a whole - let alone the entire nation that military belongs to - even though that appears what you want me to do. The answer is to call out and discipline such soldiers so that the others are incentivized to act in accordance with the law.

I agree with you that crushing the ambulances was a strange thing to do and may very well be interpreted as an admission of guilt by the soldiers who did it. I just don't agree with projecting such behaviour onto the IDF as a whole, as such actions are not encouraged, let alone prescribed, by the Israeli military command. It also appears that the bodies were not put into a "mass grave", but rather "buried to protect them from damage during any expected new fight" after the UN were unable to locate them after being notified by the IDF about the incident. Whether that is true or not remains to be seen.

Vanellus said:

https://x.com/_ADridi/status/1908597360416219524

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Thank you for the link. These are some questions I'd like an investigation to answer:

- Apparently the vehicle without lights at the side of the road was the target location. Why do you need at least 4 ambulances and 15 medics to attend one vehicle?
- What is the identity of the person at 1:14 in civilian clothes? How many more of these 15 people were not dressed like medics?
- My natural reaction to coming under fire as a civilian/medic would be shouting "WE ARE UNARMED, STOP SHOOTING". Nobody in the video appeared to shout anything along those lines.
- Why did it take a 5-minute firefight if all 15 people were unarmed? The IDF has night vision devices, so the lack of light wasn't an issue. If the soldiers knew that these are just medics and pose no threat to them, this would've been over within a minute or two. It's also perplexing to me that the only guy who is shouting like crazy is the one not getting shot the entire time. Typically he'd draw fire and get taken out pretty quickly, especially if it was the soldiers' intention to just kill them all.

I am not saying that any of these people were not medics or had arms. I don't know that and I'm not assuming that. I'd just like more clarity about the events and the reasons for both parties' behaviour.

Vanellus said:

It was in the twitter thread referenced in post #59 as I informed you before - under the twitter user I specified to you.

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I don't have a Twitter account, so I can only see the one post that you sent the link to (or I know too little about Twitter to find "post #59").

Vanellus said:

2. Initially the Israeli authorities stated that the vehicles did not have headlights on and were driving "suspiciously". Did they have their headlights on (yes or no)? How were they driving "suspiciously"?

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They certainly had their headlights on. Whether they were driving "suspiciously" depends on what that even means. Were they trying to get by without being seen? No. Four ambulances and 15 medics for a single vehicle isn't what I would expect though, especially in Gaza where medics are high in demand and low in supply. Shooting first and asking questions later is definitely not the correct approach to this, that's for sure.

Vanellus said:

3. In a crowded place this seemed a lonely place at night i.e. no witnesses. This could have been a deliberate Israeli trap and they were killed because they were Palestinian emergency workers.

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That's something Muslims and leftists would say, that Israel is targeting aid workers on purpose. However, that argument doesn't make any sense. Killing aid workers provides no benefit to the Israeli military, on the contrary, it only hampers their war efforts by having to launch investigations and facing increased pressure to stop the war. If there was a policy of targeting civilians in the IDF, the civilian-to-combatant ratio would be higher than in other modern wars, but it is lower. If anything you could say that there are soldiers among the IDF who violate army protocols and kill Palestinian emergency workers on purpose. That's not "Israel" doing it, that is bad individuals doing it (a differentiation you would maintain in every case that doesn't involve Israel when a state's policy and a soldier's behaviour don't align).

As for your graphic, it doesn't show an intentional targeting of aid workers. The vast majority of those aid workers were killed before mid November of 2023 [in case it's behind a paywall for you: 102 aid workers killed by Nov 14, 2023] - which is just two weeks after the IDF ground invasion into Gaza began, and at which point the IDF had hardly taken any territory yet. That means that the majority of aid workers died in the air strikes on Hamas locations within the first weeks of the war. Since the ground invasion has begun and the IDF went from house to house, the number of killed aid workers dropped substantially. If they were purposefully killing aid workers, the soldiers on the ground would've allowed for an increased number of aid workers killed, but that didn't materialize.

Vanellus said:

You didn't state what you thought of the man who made the recording. Was he a bloodthirsty terrorist who goes around killing innocent Israeli three year olds in their beds?

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I don't know how that is relevant, but no, I don't think he was going around killing innocent Israeli three year olds in their beds. Were any of the 15 people at the scene terrorists? The recording doesn't answer that question. For that we need to wait for the results of a proper investigation.

Vanellus said:

There is bombing in other wars as well so why is this one so dangerous for aid workers, and journalists of course.

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Can you name another war in which one side is deliberately fighting from within densely populated areas and prevent civilians from evacuating? Gaza is a very different battle field than most other wars. Can you also name another war in which some of the aid workers and journalists are members of a terrorist group? Hamas has long infiltrated UNRWA both inside and outside of Gaza. A prominent case that was making headlines last year was Fatah Sharif Abu Al-Amin, a senior Hamas operative and simultaneously the head of UNRWA's teacher's union in Lebanon. A number of Palestinian journalists in Gaza turned out to be members of Hamas and/or closely affiliated with them, among others some Al Jazeera journalists and freelancers that were embedded with Hamas on Oct 7, like Hassan Eslaiah who was close with Yahya Sinwar. The extent to which these organisations and occupations are compromised is not known, though it likely plays a role in the death toll.

Vanellus said:

Israel has banned foreign journalists from Gaza precisely so they can lie about these attacks on journalists knowing their story can't be independently verified.

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That is your opinion. Israel is facing a lot of international pressure because of the war as it is, there is no need to put additional foreigners at risk in the war zone and have the pressure increased even more. There is a good reason to not have all kinds of foreigners running around in Gaza that has nothing to do with "so they can lie about these attacks".

Vanellus said:

More Israeli propaganda lines from you. Hamas is not purely a terrorist group like the IRA but a political movement which does terrorist acts. So more a combination of Sinn Fein and the IRA in one organisation, but with the difference that they had obtained political power in Gaza which Sinn Fein never had during the Troubles.

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Hamas is a terrorist group in its entirety. You actually think the political wing of Hamas is reasonable and does NOT want to wipe Israel out and kill the Jews? Yahya Sinwar, one of the most evil people this world has seen, was the head of Hamas' POLITICAL wing, not the militant one. Every person who is a member of Hamas shares the group's stated goals and accepts, if not supports, its methods of terrorism to achieve said goals. There is nothing positive in or about Hamas, they are terrorists from start to finish.

Vanellus said:

If you go down the tired line that this proves they're all bloodthirsty, then all I can say is that people who know more about this than you say Hamas won the election because of the hopeless inadequacy of the PA. There haven't been any further elections in Gaza and the West Bank because Israel prevents illegally occupied East Jerusalem from taking part.

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Oh, now it is Israel's fault that Hamas and Mahmoud Abbas don't want to hold elections? Hilarious. Some people really find ways to blame the Jews for everything. Hamas doesn't hold elections because they are an islamic authoritarian regime, Hamas doesn't believe in democracy (which isn't unusual for Arabs, there are more than 20 Arab countries, and almost none of them are democratic). The PA doesn't hold elections because Mahmoud Abbas is highly unpopular among the Palestinians and he is not willing to lose power. But yeah, blaming Israel uniting their capital city for the authoritarianism of the Palestinian leadership is convenient.

Vanellus said:

The IRA did many terrorist acts in mainland Britain but did the British government respond by flattening Catholic areas of NI, slaughtering loads of Catholics and bombing the Republic of Ireland from which the IRA launched attacks. No they didn't. Now that could be because Catholic Irish are white Europeans who have influence in US politics (many US Presidents have Irish heritage). Martin McGuinness, well known IRA hardman, became First Minister!. The Troubles weren't stopped by slaughtering everybody but by talking! Of course Netanyahu wants a forever war so he can cling onto power rather than be chucked in jail for all his crookedness. A hero of yours maybe?

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This war has been going on for much longer than Netanyahu has been in politics. You are also ignoring that the Israeli left who formed the government in 2021-2022 under Naftali Bennett and Yair Lapid maintained the same kind of reponse to Palestinian attacks. Look up Operation Breaking Dawn and Operation Break the Wave. As for your solution by diplomacy: That is the kind of naiveté that is expressed in this meme:



You cannot make a compromise with someone who has vowed to kill you and your entire family. There is only one way to deal with that, and it's not nice words.

Vanellus said:

You probably think someone like the Gaza deputy agriculture minister is a senior "terrorist operative" as well.

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As explained in the beginning, there are no nice people who join a bloody terrorist group like Hamas. If you become a Hamas member you are ideologically aligned with their agenda, and that makes you an evil person.

Vanellus said:

"Prevent civilians from evacuating" Obvious Israeli lie. So you support a second round of ethnic cleansing for Palestinians then! Does it occur to you they are tired of being driven out of their homes by exteme israeli violence. I'm sure you can come up with spurious polls or isolated Palestinians who say they would love to live in Egypt. Their home is Palestine not Egypt!

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Do you know why Hamas is fighting from within schools, hospitals, kindergartens and residential buildings instead of separating from the civilians to fight the IDF outside the populated areas like a proper army would do? Because Hamas would be wiped out immediately if they left the cover of the civilians. When a Hamas spokesperson was once asked why they built hundreds of kilometers of tunnels for themselves but not a single bunker for the civilians, the Hamas terrorist replied "because we have no other way of protecting ourselves from being targeted and killed" and that it is not their responsibility to protect civilians. Why do the tunnels protect them? Because they are under ground? No, because above the tunnels are all the civilians. The civilians above are the reason Hamas feels safe. If the civilians evacuated, Hamas' cover would be gone and the IDF could march through and eradicate them. What you call an "obvious Israeli lie" is a proven fact based on satellite images and phone calls of Gazans.

Evacuation of a war zone is not ethnic cleansing, it's the most humane thing to do. Hamas needs to be eliminated, and civilians should be moved out of the way to limit collateral damage. Just as was done in Fallujah and Mosul. Weird how common sense things are suddenly a terrible idea when Israel is involved.

Why is it that Ukrainians fleeing the war in Ukraine, Afghans fleeing the violence in Afghanistan, and Syrians fleeing the civil war in Syria, is perfectly acceptable and understandable, but Palestinians fleeing the war their own government brought upon them is the most horrible thing you could imagine? Voluntary relocation should not be an option only for Ukrainians, Afghans and Syrians. Palestinians should have the same right to apply for asylum in third countries, and if granted they should be allowed to move there just like everyone else.

Vanellus said:

Which country has two different legal systems based on race? Answer Israel. That's apartheid.
Which country elects former known terrorists as its Prime Minister? Answer Israel (Begin and Shamir to name but two)
Which countries are not in the ICC: Russia, China, USA and Israel - so they can commit war crimes with impunity.
Which country has illegally occupied territory for over 50 years? Answer Israel
Which country is taking over that territory with illegal settlements? Answer: Israel

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In what way does Israel have two different legal systems based on race? Either you are under Israeli law or you are not. If you are under Israeli law, the same laws apply to everyone regardless of race.

There are more than 60 countries that are not in the ICC, why are you singling out these four? Why don't you mention that Turkey, Pakistan, India, Canada, Chile, Egypt, Greece, Estonia, Japan, the Philippines, and dozens of others are not in the ICC either? Clearly it's not so that they can all "commit war crimes with impunity".

Vanellus said:

1. "In what way does Israel have two different legal systems based on race? Either you are under Israeli law or you are not. If you are under Israeli law, the same laws apply to everyone regardless of race."

You ought to read this webpage at least.
Israeli apartheid - Wikipedia

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There is a lot of misinformation and misconceptions out there about Israeli "apartheid", including Wikipedia. Judea and Samaria are divided into three areas: Area A, Area B and Area C, in accordance with the Oslo Accords, which the Palestinians agreed upon and isn't "the occupation" imposing on other people. Area A is under full control of the Palestinian Authority (PA) and therefore not under any Israeli law. Area B is under Palestinian civil authority, but Israeli security control (and therefore under both Palestinian civil law and Israeli military law), and Area C is under full Israeli control and therefore under Israeli civil law. That is not apartheid, that is the natural consequence of having different forms of government in these zones. How would it make sense to have Israeli civil law in Area A when it is under full control of the PA? Think if these zones as states: there are different laws in Texas than in Arizona, and different laws again in Florida. In the three areas of Judea and Samaria it's more pronounced because it is two entirely different governments responsible for the region, but it's the same underlying reason.
As for laws for Jews and laws for Palestinians in Judea and Samaria: the difference is not based on ethnicity (the requirement for apartheid) but on citizenship. The Palestinians in Judea and Samaria are not Israeli citizens (nor do they want to be), so they do not have the same rights as Israeli citizens. That is the case in all 193 countries in the world, but for some reason when it comes to Israel that is controversial. Non-citizens in the US and the UK do not have the same rights as citizens either. Is that apartheid?

When it comes to longer sentences and harsher punishments for Palestinians, that is a fair criticism of the lack of objectivity of the judges. However, that is not apartheid. It would be apartheid if the law prescribed different sentences for different ethnicities, but it doesn't do that. Just like in many other countries, judges can decide to some degree how severe the punishment is going to be, and it is this "freedom in judgement" that leads to unequal sentencing.

The Wikipedia article's examples of "apartheid" in Israel include the Law of Return - which isn't apartheid, it is an immigration policy. A country is free to decide who may immigrate and who may not. Just like Poland and Hungary say they do not want Muslim immigrants, Israel can say they welcome Jewish immigrants. Israel is a Jewish state - the only one in the world - and there is nothing wrong with that. The Wikipedia article also includes the Citizenship and Entry into Israel Law - which isn't apartheid either. In fact, the law doesn't say anything about ethnicity, it is about not granting automatic citizenship to "enemy nationals". Then Wikipedia names the Nation-State-Law - which doesn't actually do anything, it is merely symbolic in nature. It seems whoever wrote that article really has an issue with Israel being a Jewish state.

Vanellus said:

2, There are more than 60 countries that are not in the ICC
Dare I say that countries like Grenada aren't that important but when you get in league with countries like China, India, Turkey, Pakistan and Russia - well they aren't beacons of democracy are they!

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I didn't mention Grenada, I mentioned countries like Canada, Greece, Estonia, and Japan. Would you like to claim that these countries are not democratic? Do these countries just want to "commit war crimes with impunity"? These countries are not members of the ICC, so if the US and Israel are not members either that seems just fair.

Vanellus said:

What you ignored:
3.
Which country elects former known terrorists as its Prime Minister? Answer Israel (Begin and Shamir to name but two)
Which country has illegally occupied territory for over 50 years? Answer Israel
Which country is taking over that territory with illegal settlements? Answer: Israel

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I don't think the identity of Israel's prime minister 30-40 years ago is relevant for today. While there hasn't been a Jewish terrorist group anymore for the past 75+ years, the Islamic terrorist groups are still very much around.

International law has great benefits and is important, but it isn't perfect and sometimes out of touch with reality. The Golan Heights are "illegally occupied", yet Israel must hold onto them to prevent the almost-daily attacks against Israeli farmers and villages that took place before the 6-Day-War. Gaza counts as "illegally occupied" even though it isn't occupied at all, Egypt and Israel just closed their borders which is the right of every country. Judea and Samaria is "illegally occupied" even though the Palestinian leadership agreed to the Oslo Accords that grant Israel control over Area C of the region and allows for Jewish settlements there as well. So yeah, quite frankly, I'm not mad at Israel for doing the right thing, maintaining security and inhabitating their ancestral homeland. Of course I could point to the Bible as well, but that's not even necessary. History since 1922 and the fall of the Ottoman Empire is fully enough to support Israel in most (not all) of its policies.

Vanellus said:

4. The situation in Northern Ireland has some obvious parallels but you ignored the different way the country with military power dealt with it. Not as many people were killed in the Troubles but in terms of nastiness it was similar: e.g. fathers shot dead in their own home in front of their families.

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I don't know much about Northern Ireland and the Troubles, so I cannot provide an educated comment on that. I will say though that to my knowledge neither the Irish nor the British ever had the intention of completely eradicating the other side. The same cannot be said about the situation in Israel. Israel's enemies absolutely want to exterminate the Jewish people, and had nobody stopped Hamas on Oct 7, they wouldn't have stopped slaughtering everyone they met before reaching the other end of the country.

Vanellus said:

5. I think you might find that many Ukrainians want to live in Ukraine and many Afghans in Afghanistan. If ethnic cleansing happens again Israel won't let them return - we know that from Naqba 1.0.

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Russia will not let Ukrainians return to the Eastern parts of Ukraine either, that wasn't a reason for the majority of the Ukrainians there to NOT evacuate. Do you know how many Ukrainians there are who will not be able to return home anymore? Should Europe have forced them to stay in the Donbas, Donetsk, Luhansk etc like the world is forcing Palestinians to remain in Gaza? The Palestinians who prefer to stay may do so, but the others should have the same opportunity to survive and find a better life as the Ukrainians who fled the Eastern parts of Ukraine.

The difference between Russia not letting Ukrainians return and Israel not letting Palestinians return (including those from the "Nakba") is that the Ukrainians never attacked Russia, while the Palestinians repeatedly started wars against the Jews/Israel - both in 1947 and now. I wouldn't let anyone return to my house who attacked me either.

Vanellus said:

6. Where do you get the idea I support Naftali Bennett and Yair Lapid?

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You said "Of course Netanyahu wants a forever war so he can cling onto power rather than be chucked in jail for all his crookedness." So I pointed out that this "forever war" is not a Netanyanhu-thing, any non-Netanyahu politician has done and would do the exact same thing.

Vanellus said:

7. What do you think the Gaza ministry of agriculture does? Create GM explosive olives to throw at Israeli soldiers who are mowing them down with machine guns? Hamas was responsible for the normal activities of government in Gaza. The quaint Israeli term for periodically slaughtering lots of Palestinians is mowing the lawn. You see the cynical disregard for Palestinian human life. This is explained by Jewish historian Norman Finkelstein

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How do you think you become a minister in Hamas' government? By being pro-peace? Obviously not. You only get a good position in Hamas' government by being loyal to their cause. Hamas is neither a democracy nor a meritocracy, the thing that is most important to them is their ideology. If you are a minister in Gaza it means you are closely aligned with the evilness and barbarity of the group.

The agriculture minister of the Taliban is still a Taliban. Even if he didn't personally killed Americans, he isn't a good dude.

Norman Finkelstein, the hero of all antisemites? Not a source I take seriously, and widely debunked by actual historians like Benny Morris.

Vanellus said:

How do you react as a human being to the use of the phrase "mowing the lawn" in Gaza?

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One of the most fascinating traits of Israelis is that they keep their humour in the face of evil. Despite being under constant attacks and persistant threat, Israelis are optimistic in nature and rank among the top 10 happiest countries on Earth. Speaking of their war against terrorism as something as casual as "mowing the lawn" is one example of that.

"Mowing the lawn" is referring to the necessity to reign in Hamas' capabilities every once in a while. While Israel is trying to prevent the smuggling of weaponry into Gaza, Hamas still finds ways to build rockets and fire them at Israeli civilians. When these attacks get out of hand, Israel has to "clip Hamas' wings", so to speak. So an air strike campaign ensues in which large parts of the Hamas infrastructure is destroyed and taken out, leading to another phase of peace and quiet until the terrorist group built up their manufacturing sites and stockpiles again.

For example, in 2014 Hamas fired 162 rockets at Israel within the first 6 months of the year, and then 80 rockets within a single day on July 7. This triggered another round of "mowing the lawn", called Operation Protective Edge. All the civilian casualties on both sides can be directly attributed to Hamas' firing of rockets at Israel, without which none of these operations would take place.

Vanellus said:

8. The Troubles weren't stopped by slaughtering everybody but by talking!
Your reaction?

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As I said above, neither side in the Troubles intended to entirely wipe out the other side. But Hamas wants to do that, so this is my reaction:

Friedrich Rubinstein said:

You cannot make a compromise with someone who has vowed to kill you and your entire family. There is only one way to deal with that, and it's not nice words.

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Vanellus said:

9. East Jerusalem and Palestinian elections.
Palestinian Authority: No elections without east Jerusalem participation
Er why doesn't Israel allow occupied East Jerusalem to vote?

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Jerusalem is Israel's capital, if they wish to vote for an election in Judea and Samaria they may go there. Of course this is a convenient excuse for Mahmoud Abbas for not holding elections there. According to a recent Gallup poll, Abbas' approval rating "has fallen to 29% today in the West Bank and East Jerusalem, with twice as many (59%) now disapproving of his leadership." Meanwhile a poll from the Palestinian Center for Policy and Survey Research (PCPSR) found that "80% of Palestinians say PA President Abbas should step down". And you think Abbas genuinely WANTS to hold elections?

Vanellus said:

10. You: "Hamas doesn't believe in democracy"
Fact: Hamas won the Palestinian legislative elections on 25 January 2006,

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Winning an election doesn't mean that you believe in democracy. Hitler's party won the election in 1933 - and he was a dictator ever since. Hamas used the imposed process of election to gain power, but hasn't held an election ever since precisely because they are not democratic in nature.

Friedrich Rubinstein said:

While there hasn't been a Jewish terrorist group anymore for the past 75+ years, the Islamic terrorist groups are still very much around.

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Kach/Kahane Chai
Jewish Defense League
The Revolt
Jewish Underground
Terror Neged Terror

JosephZ said:

Kach/Kahane Chai
Jewish Defense League
The Revolt
Jewish Underground
Terror Neged Terror

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You're right, a more accurate statement would've been "There hasn't been a prominent Jewish terrorist group anymore for the past 75+ years." Most people never even heard of these groups, that's how negligible they are. Can't say the same about the Palestinian side, where the terrorist groups are the most prominent representatives of the entire population. Be it Hamas, Fatah, Palestinian Islamic Jihad, PFLP, DFLP, and others whose names most people have heard before. It's difficult to name any Palestinian leadership in the past 75 years who wasn't involved in terrorism.

Friedrich Rubinstein said:

Can't say the same about the Palestinian side, where the terrorist groups are the most prominent representatives of the entire population. Be it Hamas, Fatah, Palestinian Islamic Jihad, PFLP, DFLP, and others whose names most people have heard before.

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It's important to note that not all of the terrorist groups in the region of Palestine are Islamic. Some are secular, including two of the ones you mentioned: the Democratic Front for the Liberation of Palestine (DFLP) and the Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine (PFLP). The DFLP was founded by and is currently led by a Jordanian Christian, Nayif Hawatmeh. The DFLP's militant wing, the National Resistance Brigades, participated in the October 7th terrorist attack on Israel. The PFLP was founded by George Habash, a Christian, and is also one of the more radical and militant Palestinian terrorist groups.

JosephZ said:

It's important to note that not all of the terrorist groups in the region of Palestine are Islamic. Some are secular, including two of the ones you mentioned: the Democratic Front for the Liberation of Palestine (DFLP) and the Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine (PFLP). The DFLP was founded by and is currently led by a Jordanian Christian, Nayif Hawatmeh. The DFLP's militant wing, the National Resistance Brigades, participated in the October 7th terrorist attack on Israel. The PFLP was founded by George Habash, a Christian, and is also one of the more radical and militant Palestinian terrorist groups.

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Correct. It is unfortunate and disturbing that many Palestinian Christians are just as radicalized and antisemitic as Palestinian non-Christians. It is also worrying that there doesn't seem to be any moderate movement among the Palestinians that is supported by the general population. While the PA is one of the less "terroristy" organisations, it still has questionable ties to terrorists, and its "pay-for-slay" program has been a topic of hot debate. The PA also doesn't enjoy much support among the Palestinian population anymore (links to two recent polls are above), and everything indicates that a more radical group would take over if the PA loses control in Judea and Samaria.
As long as the Palestinians keep choosing radical groups as their representatives, it is very difficult to stop the circle of violence in the region.

Vanellus said:

Let's see now: the UN, the ICJ, the ICC, the BBC, numerous other newspapers and media organisations and now Wikipedia are all anti Israel. Has it ever occurred to you that Israel are baddies and that explains why virtually everyone else opposes what the Israeli state is doing - y'know slaughtering men, women, children, donkeys, destroying hospitals, churches, mosques, libraries, bookshops and famous cultural sites - all in the name of security. Except the only way Israel can totally guarantee its security is to kill everyone else on the planet.

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I am not in the least surprised that those institutions and the mainstream media are against Israel. The left has long captured many institutions in the world - from universities to newspapers, from "human rights" organisations to the entertainment industry. And since the left is widely anti-Israel, this sentiment is reflected in the statements of said institutions.

The words of Golda Meir are just as true today as they were 50 years ago: "If the Arabs put down their weapons today, there would be no more violence. If the Jews put down their weapons today, there would be no more Israel."

Vanellus said:

Israel has the support of the massive US military machine - but for how long? You may have noticed that TrumpUSA is an unreliable ally now. What if someone explains to Trump the low view of Jesus held by religious Jews? Lower than that held by religious Muslims. And the Arabs still have a lot of oil.

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That's the last thing I'm worried about. God's promise to the Jewish people is that they will never be uprooted again from the land that He has given them, whether with or without US support. Just like the Jewish state won the Six-Day-War in miraculous ways without a single weapon shipment from the US during that time, and just like the IDF obliterated Hezbollah without the "150,000 rockets that will rain down on Tel Aviv" that we heard about for months prior, it will overcome any threat to its existence.

Vanellus said:

Then there are the self-hating, antisemitic wrong kind of Jews like Norman Finkelstein - an acknowledged expert on Gaza. [The very use of such vitriolic language is itself antisemitic and indicates the wrongness of the pro Israel stance] Could it be that he and others (e.g. Noam Chomsky) have the courage to say that the emperor which is the Israeli state has no clothes i.e. it is in the wrong in the cruel and violent way it interacts with its neighbours. And do Finkelstein's critics engage in eirenic debate with him?

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"Acknowledged expert on Gaza", sure. Norman Finkelstein refused to condemn Hamas for what they did on Oct 7, if there are people whose opinion I don't take seriously it is people like him. Not too long ago Norman Finkelstein and another guy debated Benny Morris and Steven Bonnell (I'm no fan of Bonnell btw, this is one of his few sane stances), and it was Finkelstein who was throwing insults around more than anyone else. So much for "eirenic". Either way, having followed this conflict closely for many years, the statement that Israel is "wrong in the cruel and violent way it interacts with its neighbours" is detached from reality. Almost all Israeli "violence" is in response to Palestinian attacks, while most Palestinian attacks are unprovoked. Israel has tried to coexist with the Arabs for 75 years, it is the Palestinians who refuse to accept any kind of coexistence and publicly support violence until the Jewish state is wiped out.

Vanellus said:

You clearly didn't listen to the testimony of Israeli ex soldier who explained the different treatment of a Jew or a Palestinian who picks up a stone in Hebron: the first comes under civilan law and the second under military law.

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First of all, Hebron is both Area A as well as Area C, so a comparison only makes sense if they were both in the same Area.

Second, it has nothing to do with Jew or Palestinian, the ethnicity doesn't matter. It is about nationality. The "Jew" is an Israeli, that's the important part. So he is under Israeli law. The Palestinian is not an Israeli, so he cannot be under Israeli law - he is therefore under military law. I don't get why you have an issue with that, that seems the most rational thing to do in the given circumstances.

Vanellus said:

You: "When it comes to longer sentences and harsher punishments for Palestinians, that is a fair criticism of the lack of objectivity of the judges."
The judges are doing what the Israeli state expects them to.

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The judges are doing what they see fit, just like in many other countries. Would you say that US judges are "doing what the American state expects them to"? I wouldn't, and neither is it true of the Israeli judges.

Vanellus said:

You: "A country is free to decide who may immigrate and who may not. Just like Poland and Hungary say they do not want Muslim immigrants, Israel can say they welcome Jewish immigrants. Israel is a Jewish state - the only one in the world - and there is nothing wrong with that."
The big difference is that Israel violently ejected the Palestinians from their own homes and villages. That is not the case of, say, Muslim immigrants to Hungary.

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I cannot follow your logic here. So because some Palestinians were displaced 75 years ago, Israel cannot decide their own immigration policy? Those Palestinians fought a war against the newly formed Jewish state, Israel does not owe them anything. But even if you think they do, there is no law that would force Israel to give up their right to decide their immigration policy.

Vanellus said:

You: "I mentioned countries like Canada, Greece, Estonia, and Japan"
I see these countries in: The States Parties to the Rome Statute | International Criminal Court but not Israel, Russia and China or the USA.

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You're right, my bad. I guess committing war crimes with impunity it is.

Vanellus said:

You: "The Golan Heights are "illegally occupied", yet Israel must hold onto them to prevent the almost-daily attacks against Israeli farmers"
Hmm what should Gaza hold onto in order to prevent the daily attacks against them?

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For the past 20 years it has always been the same game: Gaza fires rockets at Israel, Israel responds with a bombing campaign. If Gaza wanted to prevent the "daily attacks against them", all they had to do was stop firing rockets at Israeli civilians. Why is it that you think the thousands and tens of thousands of rockets fired from Gaza doesn't warrant a military response?

The only time I can think of that Israel dropped bombs pre-emptively on Gaza (without prior rocket fire from the strip) was Operation Breaking Dawn. Notably, this didn't take place under Netanyahu but under a left wing government.

Vanellus said:

You: "Gaza counts as "illegally occupied" even though it isn't occupied at all"

Israeli occupation of the Gaza Strip - Wikipedia

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A more accurate term than "occupied" would be "besieged". Cause and effect are important here: The siege is due to Palestinian terrorism, not the other way around.

Vanellus said:

On NI I should have added that rather than do punishment killings in front of the man's family, Israel simply bombs the home killing all the family and the neighbours - much more civilized. And then claims they were being used as "human shields" y'know by living at home with their family.

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Detached from reality. The IDF is targeting militants, not families. Unfortunately Hamas is very bad at separating themselves from civilians. Since Israel doesn't have a magic weapon that only kills terrorists, conventional weapons must do. There is only so much precision that you can accomplish with a bomb in the middle of a city.

Vanellus said:

Israel recently voted against a UN resolution calling for peace in Ukraine and reaffirming Ukraine's sovereignty and territorial integrity. Do you agree with that vote?

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I don't agree with that vote, no. To my knowledge Israel has prior to that vote consistently voted in favour of Ukraine in the UN. I'm not too surprised that they voted differently this time though, given Trump's behaviour, his expectations and the US' role in the hostage deal that was being negotiated around that same time. It's likely that Israel agreed to support the US vote in the UN in exchange for continued US support in their effort to free the hostages.

Vanellus said:

Are you aware that Netanyahu faces charges for corruption?

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I'm aware. If those allegations are proven to be true, he should be held fully accountable. The investigation into Netanyahu started almost 10 years ago and still hasn't convicted him of anything, so I'm not holding by breath.

Vanellus said:

You: "If you are a minister in Gaza it means you are closely aligned with the evilness and barbarity of the group."
Given that you are not a mind reader this is just prejudicial nonsense.

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That's how terrorist groups operate. Loyalty is rewarded with higher positions.

Vanellus said:

You: "One of the most fascinating traits of Israelis is that they keep their humour in the face of evil."
I don't think that using "mowing the lawn" to refer to slaughtering thousands of Palestinians is at all funny. It's a nasty warped sense of "humour" that does think so, and it is not at all funny.

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As I explained, it is referring to the degradation of Hamas. The one getting "mowed" here is Hamas, the group that is solely responsible for any civilian casualties. Mischaracterizing the meaning of the term like that is repugnant.

Vanellus said:

You: "But Hamas wants to do that, so this is my reaction:"
You do realize that the crowds who shout "death to America" and "death to Israel" go back to their shops and offices afterwards. It's just bluster. It's quite possible that one side intends to wipe out the other but keeps it quiet. One can tell by what they do not what they say.

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Are you implying that the people shouting "death to Israel" wouldn't actually do it if they had the chance? Oct 7 demonstrated the opposite.

The difference between the Israelis and the Palestinians is this: The Israelis have the military power to wipe out the Palestinians but choose not to do it. The Palestinians don't have the military power to wipe out the Jewish state but would absolutely do it if they could. Which side is the genocidal one?

Vanellus said:

You: "Jerusalem is Israel's capital"
The PA considers it their capital as well.
Status of Jerusalem - Wikipedia

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Jerusalem is Israel's capital since 1949 - officially united in 1980. The Palestinians first made that claim 40 years later, in 1988. Not to mention that "Palestine" wasn't even a country before declaring independence in 1988, so any claim to something that already belongs to another country - in this case Israel - is irrelevant.

Vanellus said:

Well not much new in your last post except for the standard blame the left rhetoric. Still if you're so far to the right you've fallen off the cliff into the slough of unreality then everything and everyone else is on the left. The current Director General of the BBC is a failed Tory party parliamentary candidate but then maybe you think the Tories are a left wing party? Hussey, Bland, Ryder, Patten, Fairhead all recent DGs, all Tories. Richard Sharp was a big donor to the Tory party. Laura Kuenssberg is infamous for her pro Tory bias e.g. Laura Kuenssberg's 'bias' finally addressed by BBC after huge backlash

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It doesn't matter who the Director General of the BBC and those other people are, what matters is the way the articles in the newspaper are written. I already lost count how many times the BBC had to apologize or outright retract publications for their false and/or misleading coverage of the Gaza war. Famous examples are their report about the al-Ahli hospital explosion (which wasn't an Israeli strike at all), the alleged targeting of medical staff (when in reality the source said that the IDF brought medical staff into Gaza to help), the accusation that Israel killed 12 people in the Golan Heights (when it was a Hezbollah rocket), and their retracted Gaza-documentary that was filmed by Hatem Rawagh who has praised the Oct 7 massacre.

Vanellus said:

I noticed you dodged the point about how religious Jews regard Jesus but it's not irrelevant given what this forum is and your self declaration as a Christian. Maybe it explains why the IDF consider Christian owned hospitals as fair game:

Israeli air strike destroys part of last fully functional hospital in Gaza City

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Around 80% of Israeli Jews are traditionalists or secular, they have no strong opinion about Jesus at all. The religious Jews that have a negative opinion about Jesus are the Orthodox and the Ultra-Orthodox Jews, which until very recently didn't join the IDF, so the assumption that their beliefs influenced the conduct of the Israeli army is unfounded.

Whether a hospital is "Christian" or not is utterly irrelevant for the targeting in the war against Hamas. If Hamas uses parts or all of a hospital to store weapons, hide fighters, observe Israeli positions, plan war tactics or for any other non-medical purpose, the hospital loses its protected status under the Geneva Conventions, article 19. In that case an evacuation warning has to be given - which is precisely what the IDF did and why there have been no casualties.

Vanellus said:

Maybe the child was a Hamas boss in disguise. The IDF lie is so obvious it's clearly said to show they can get supporters like you to swallow anything. No evidence of course.

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The child wasn't targeted, no reason to make things up. There is a war in Gaza, it's pointless to expect that only ever the bad guys die. No military in all of human history has been able to avoid the deaths of civilians, much less in situations like Gaza where the bad guys do everything they can to get their own people killed.

Vanellus said:

I take your silence to mean you approve of street harassment of Norman Finkelstein. Prove me wrong I hope. Still maybe that's what someone with a PhD from Princeton should expect in anti intellectual TrumpUSA

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I don't approve of harassment. That didn't seem to be a point worth replying to though, since this phenomenon appears on both sides. This isn't a competition of who is the greatest victim, nor is being harassed evidence that you are correct about an issue.

Vanellus said:

Article 11 of UN resolution 194 (still in force I believe)
refugees wishing to return to their homes and live at peace with their neighbours should be permitted to do so at the earliest practicable date, and that compensation should be paid for the property of those choosing not to return and for loss of or damage to property which, under principles of international law or equity, should be made good by the Governments or authorities responsible

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How do you determine who wants to live at peace? The Palestinians are not stupid, the reason they keep demanding a "right to return" is because they want to change the demographics in Israel to destroy the Jewish state from within, and if signing a statement saying "I want to live in peace" is what it takes, nobody will stop them. Israel is not going to invite the foxes into the henhouse, nor should they.

I'm curious though if you think that the 850,000 Jews that were expelled from Muslim countries after 1948 should have the same right and get compensated for the property that was taken from them?

Vanellus said:

You: A more accurate term than "occupied" would be "besieged"
So making Gaza a ghetto is ok by you!

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What do you imagine a ghetto to be? With a gold market perhaps, like Gaza? Here's a short video from the Turkish media about Gaza prior to the war. Is this what you call a ghetto?

Vanellus said:

You: Unfortunately Hamas is very bad at separating themselves from civilians.
Yes living at home with your family is such a sin. Remember for Amalek Netanyahu even the donkeys are Hamas.

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Are you suggesting that the terrorists are just "living at home" with their family? Who are the ones fighting against the IDF inside densely populated areas? Who are the ones firing rockets at Israeli towns and cities from inside kindergardens and humanitarian safe zones? If Hamas were just "living at home", this whole war wouldn't have happened.

What do you think of children being used as human shields by Hamas? They placed rocket launchers inside the building of the boy scouts, so that retaliatory strikes by the IDF would kill the children:

Vanellus said:

You: Are you implying that the people shouting "death to Israel" wouldn't actually do it if they had the chance?
Yes since it involves personal danger to them. They're weekend activists.

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I suggest you study the history of the conflict and then try to answer my question again. Be it the First Intifada, the Second Intifada, the hundreds, even thousands of terrorist attacks Israel is facing every single year, or now October 7. The Palestinians have proven time and time again that they are dead serious about their goals.

Vanellus said:

You: Which side is the genocidal one?
It's Israel who is accused of genocide.

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I didn't ask which side is accused of what, I asked which side is the genocidal one when the Israelis clearly have the ability to commit a genocide but don't while the Palestinians clearly have the intentions to do it and have repeatedly attempted to do it. If Hamas were in possession of enough bombs to eliminate every Israeli they wouldn't hesitate to do it. Israel does the opposite.

Vanellus said:

You: The Palestinians first made that claim 40 years later
Israel's annexation of Jerusalem was condemned by the UN long before that.

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The UN can condemn reality all day long, it doesn't change the facts on the ground. Israel captured East Jerusalem from Jordan, not from some fictitious state of "Palestine", which didn't exist at the time. Jordan didn't want the territory back, so Israel united their capital. It is a mystery to me how a Christian who has read the Bible could be upset about the Jewish state having control over the city of David, let alone demand that Jerusalem be divided because of the demands by Muslims decades later.