Is Nightwish a Christian Band? Or is Their Music Satanic?

Well, to be perfectly and politely honest, I think you may be misinterpreting my meaning just a little bit. I know I was pretty heated nigh on ten years ago against Talitha, but it wasn't because my emotions were raw.

I feel I should clarify. NW was my favorite band, and no one has really risen up to take that title in those 10 years, but their last 3 albums didn't hold me as well. I say this to lend you some context when I say, I don't and never did worship them in any sense of the word, didn't think them perfect, and they certainly weren't a sacred cow, if you catch my meaning. I had friends who didn't like NW, and I didn't begrudge them that. Listened to people trash-talk them in old "Who's your favorite band" threads and such, usually kept my mouth shut unless it was to inform them, "No, NW is in fact NOT copying Evanescence, and were around several years prior." XD

I've rewritten what would've been this paragraph about 5 times now, and I think all I can say is this. I was upset with Talitha not because of her message, but because of how she presented it. She probably did mean to help people, and I can appreciate that. She probably didn't mean to come across as being nasty or anything, or realize that her experience with another band wouldn't be taken as proof by strangers. That doesn't sound very forgiving on my end, but I'm not sure how else to express it. I don't know how much of that conversation you read, or if I can speak for her other detractors, but it wasn't her opinions that got her flack; it was how she expressed them, that she expressed them as fact even when we presented evidence to the contrary, and how she responded to us. For my part, I know I didn't help things by being a mouthy little teenage spitfire. But that's how it happened. We weren't flocking to defend a sacred cow, nor were we confronted with any sort of biblical reason it was bad for us; just that another band influenced her negatively, and that she was convinced it would do the same to us.

To that end, I have indeed studied and prayed to the point that I have my standards and principles concerning secular music pretty firmly established to a point that I am confident they don't negatively effect my spiritual life. And, no looking for deep meaning here, going literally by what is in that verse, I was indeed reading the scripture you quoted as meaning what it said. "That which is not against me is for me" literally means that if something is not done FOR God, but it isn't done AGAINST him, then it falls back into the FOR category. How are we reading outside the lines here?

Thanks Paladin Dave for your honesty and going to lengths to give me a view into your thinking and also past. I truly appreciate it And certainly God appreciates when we discuss meek and honest, not coarse and playing word games (not referring to you, but to Internet forums in general)
I too came off quite strong especially in my first posting. To be honest I was angered when I saw the way Talitha was verbally treated when her motives were seemingly sincere.

I thought to myself I cannot believe that Christians are verbally tearing to pieces each other. I know Christians are humans just like anyone else, but I felt the flak that Talitha received for sincerity was just too rich. It compelled me to sign in on this forum just to comment to defend her sincerity and message, and I have not joined a website in years to do that. So please accept my apology as being confrontational in my defense for her message, I meant sincerity as well.

I think in a general way, Christians especially should pay more attention to how they present and respond to things. Satan is so crafty that he can manipulate our emotions so that we say something in a provocative way or then direct our attention in the meaningless.. I try to elaborate what I mean: in the case of Talitha's message, which I believe she truely was worried for your safety spiritually, she as a human being may have failed to present her sincerity in a way that would be unprovocative towards others reading her commenting. That does not however undermine her message or her sincere worry and motive for others well being. But her message got lost in translation due to it's provocative effect. We as Christians should perhaps all pay closer attention how we present things but also how we read into them.

I read how people would basically tear her to pieces for the way she presented her sincere worry, essentially those people completely neglecting what she had to say, but focusing on the stuff that matters less; her presentation. These same people in their commenting would then fall to the same trap they themselves were accusing her of doing. Picking specks from a sisters eye while ignoring the log in their own so to speak. Problem here was that everyone seemed to feel righteous about doing so, and that provoked me into anger.
After that said, I feel I too did come across confrontational in my first post especially.

My worry here to every Christian including Talitha and myself is we should pay attention how we treat others. It's a tragedy if a sincere message is ignored just because we as Christians cannot focus on the message but rather focus on technicalities how that message is presented. Obviously care should be taken to present your message so that it is not causing confrontation, but we are always going to offend someone. We are human after all.

I thank you for reassuring me that you have reached peace about your position on secular music. My personal faith is different but now that you have told me your position in a calm and mature way, I respect your opinion.

I also now understand your position on what Jesus had to say and I agree with your view. That however was not my original point for my point was that night wish was in my opinion music against Christ expressly so I pulled the quote from bible. Obviously that's again my personal faith and understanding of bible but I'm not bashing anyone on the head with it, which is why I wanted to implore people to do their own research and stay confident in their faith. You have done that and therefore there is little I can say to you except that thank you for clarifying to me your position in a calm and mature way. What can I say? We have to agree to disagree on secular music but still remain civilized and with mutual respect for each other God works in ways most wondrous and I pray we meet and can hug in heaven one day and rejoice together! May God Bless you with spiritual gifts to aid you in life that prayer should be for all of us anyway. Take care and have a nice week!

Hey, a Nightwish thread!

Seeing what intense discussion has been going on here, I'll be brief and just say three things:

1. I love Nightwish's sound. First song I ever heard by them was "The Kinslayer," which was (somewhat obliquely) about the Columbine massacre; and I was blown away by the discovery of symphonic metal which became, hands down, my favorite genre of music. I think Tuomas is a fantastic composer and eagerly await the new album with Floor Jansen as the lead singer (who based on her performance at Wacken might just be the best vocalist they've had yet).

2. There should be no reason to insist on music being overtly "Christian" in order to enjoy it without guilt. When musicians have great talent, regardless of their personal beliefs, we can appreciate their talents as gifts from God and rejoice in His common grace. Personally I think that people who reject non-Christian music should also take care to reject non-Christian paintings, non-Christian books, non-Christian ice ballet, etc. It seems silly at best; at worst, it closes one off to the world that Christ calls on us to engage.

3. That being said, I am in no place to judge. Romans 14. If someone feels that a certain kind of music is spiritually dangerous, that is between that person and God and I respect that. Yet those who vocally condemn metal as "the devil's music" are not doing anyone a favor. To paraphrase Paul, "For the kingdom of God is not a matter of musical tastes, but of righteousness, peace and joy in the Holy Spirit... So whatever you believe about these things, keep between yourself and God."

I can relate to what you are saying about Nightwish and of their music, that's how I loved them as well. It all changed for me after giving my life to Jesus and the reason was not based on their musical talent. It was because I started to notice spiritual themes in their music, lyrics, and especially music videos and interviews of Tuomas. For me I couldn't with good conscience listen to them when I noticed it was not so pure as I had thought it had been. For me personally it became like eating food sacrificed to idols kind of thing. We know in ancient times, these wooden statues and idols had no power, except spiritually in the mind of the person giving that statue godlike position. This became an idol in that persons mind thus replacing God as most high in that persons mind. A believer knows it's only a statue of wood and has no magical properties, but he is still commanded not to take any part with it or eat food sacrificed to it. Even if the believer might think it as good chance to evangelize to a pagan over a meal at their house. The most obvious thing here is of course the spiritual implication: God is sovereign and nobody, especially a believer is supposed to act contradicting, regardless if it's just a dumb and deaf statue. Now you might argue that how does the above relate to music or anything other than food?

Well for me it does relate to all aspects of Christian living. We now know anything can become an idol. We don't worship wooden statues anymore but we can worship job's , cars, houses, women, food, even music. Anything that takes God in our lives and demotes Him from most high status to a second place in our thoughts, actions etc. The food sacrificed to idols was just one off example that was dealing with the churches that were reverting back into pagan practices. But like with anything in the bible, it is not meant as a rigid guideline but to be meditated upon with thought and prayer, talking with other believers etc. to see how it relates to our lives as believers and how we may abide and apply them to our lives.

My point here being, if you discover a band has ungodly aspirations, you have to make a willing decision about giving them your attention. Ie. worship. Worship is giving your time and attention, that's how your job may become an idol, or spouse, or anything when your not directing your attention towards God first and your neighbor second. The idea of worship has become so skewed in the past 50-60 years it's incredible. We now seem to think worship is when we sing songs to Jesus on Sunday service. That's only scratching the surface of what worship is or means. It's about whatever is king in our hearts at a current state in time. Is it God or is it our work for instance. A believer is fooling him/herself if they are thinking they always put God on the first place. The bible gives the impression we as humans are incapable of doing that perfectly. There are always times of spiritual distractions. However that's not the point. The point is: do you seek your heart to God and do you conscious effort and choices to keep him number 1, and strive to keep doing that till the day you are called home.

The bible says this world is not our home, that like Israel was a tribe of sojourners in the desert, we as believers are called out of this world (spiritually) and also are like sojourners and aliens here. Our lives are supposed to be a living testimony for God and for His glory on earth, an example how we have become different from which we were while still living in the world. Now we are called out of it, and should not remain like we were. To quote bible here Gal 4:8 'Formerly, when you did not know God, you were enslaved to those that by nature are not gods. But now that you have come to know God, or rather to be known by God, how can you turn back again to the weak and worthless elementary principles of the world, whose slaves you want to be once more?'

In any way. These are my personal issues of faith and my motives are sincere. However I do not condemn you or attack you if you disagree with me. It's in the end about your own faith and walk with God, not about mine. We all give account to The Most High ourselves. Therefore please don't take my opinion as imposing or condemning. Judgment belongs to God alone. That still does not mean we are not called to exhort, admonish, teach, and support each other in love. Thus meaning we should have discussions like these, that regardless the outcome, they push and make us think what we believe in and why.

Have a good day and remember these are my personal thoughts. We all have our own faith and that's why we are called to seek unity in Christ Jesus.
Love you all!

Interesting discussion.

Nightwish is not a Christian gospel band, but neither Nightwish or Tuomas Holopainen are by any means anti-Christian or even "neutral" non-Christian. Tuomas Holopainen comes from a Christian family and has a deeply Lutheran ubringing. Holopainen's maternal grandpa was the vicar of Kitee's Evangelical Lutheran parish and came from a family of churchmen in many generations. Holopainen's fiancée is a gosple singer and Christian believer, and the former the good will ambassador of the Finn Church Aid. Marco Hietala, for his part, "moonlights" for the Finnish Evangelical Lutheran Mission as part of the collobration between The Most Beautiful Christmas Carols campaign and The Heavy Christmas tour. Holopainen clearly drinks his inspiration from history, mythology, and folklore, but also from Christianity, whose symbols, theology, and creeds Holopainen knows well, thanks to his background.

I haven't had the chance to respond these past couple of days and since the thread has moved on, I don't think there's much value in me specifically addressing older posts.

I think Talitha got the response she did for two reasons.

The first was that her argument wasn't a particularly good one. It was basically that Nightwish reminded her of This Mortal Coil, and since that band was bad in her opinion, Nightwish must be as well. Coupled to this was an attitude that came across as "I know what I'm talking about and you don't", which isn't particularly constructive.

The second is that a lot of people are tired of hearing these sort of things. Anyone who's a Christian for any length of time will come across the question of whether Christians should be listening to secular music or not and will have to make that decision for themselves. It's safe to say that most of those who post in the Secular Music forum will have already made that decision.

So when someone comes along urging people to consider whether or not to listen to something or even telling them not to, it's not going to be received all that well. We've already determined it for ourselves and we don't need it brought up time and time again, especially because the person bringing it up will be someone in opposition to the listening of it. That's why that sort of thing isn't supposed to be discussed in the Secular Music forum as it just goes nowhere and neither side is going to to be convinced by the other.

Kalevatar came in with most oomph thanks to vast background knowledge of the band and it's members. So kudos to Kalevatar for that! I don't think there is much to add from my point of view and others have also gone to lengths to explain theirs. Now it's only a matter of personal reflection for all.. In a way it kind of makes me sad how Citanul's last comment is basically saying 'my view is set in stone' It's a recipe for halting and stunting growth not just as a human being but also as a believer. Like he said it: that sort of attitude will lead to nowhere because each side has their mind set and therefore no change or growth may happen. I know he didn't mean it exactly like I described above but we can raise a question if it would be healthy to be challenged time to time, especially in our comfort zones? I'm for instance being challenged by all these great views from everyone else! It makes me think if my personal view is truly grounded in the bible truth as I think it is, or if perhaps there is something for me to learn from here, instead of just giving a stamp of 'don't approve, I know how it is and I don't have to revise anything'

Anyway, so much has been said that unless someone completely challenges all views presented here, there simply isn't much to add by pretty much anyone. That's why Kalevatar made the most interesting comment since the start of the thread in my opinion. It was outside the 'box' and didn't really take any grounds, just added more background and thought. Enriching the discussion.

Blessings to all!

more88 said:

My point here being, if you discover a band has ungodly aspirations, you have to make a willing decision about giving them your attention. Ie. worship. Worship is giving your time and attention, that's how your job may become an idol, or spouse, or anything when your not directing your attention towards God first and your neighbor second.

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Personally I think you take too broad a view of worship. To worship something is not merely to give it attention, or to enjoy it for its own sake; and enjoyment of created things is not what idolatry consists of. Idolatry, rather, lies in making good things into ultimate things, warping your life around them and giving your highest allegiance to them rather than to God.

So to say, "I love music," is not idolatrous. But to say, "I love music more than anything," or, "I couldn't live without music," is idolatrous.

You are right about your definition of worship but you miss my meaning about it:
Worship is not just a condition of mind, it's a condition of heart. When you read both old and New Testament what jumps out is that God is God of the condition of heart, not appearances. He is stated to see into our hearts. He is stated to care what's in our hearts. He is stated to live in our hearts and giving us a new heart. Now the heart is a very tricky thing biblically speaking because man can fool his mind but can't fool his heart. We can't hide our heart from God but we can fool ourselves in our minds. That's how we may deceive ourselves or let satan deceive us. The revelations states that even the very elect of God may be deceived by satan. Peter was deceived before our Lord's crusifiction, Judas was, David was, Solomon was, Adam was etc. That means that while we may make believe ourselves to be on fire for God and worship him, if in our hearts there's something wrong, it's not going to cut it for God. Jesus was persecuted by the Pharisees and Sadducees who kept their appearances super Godly and clean but had filthy hearts. Now we don't know but to oppose God himself and plot to kill Him in the flesh either takes massive balls or incredible stupidity or plain madness. I personally don't think it was none of those things but rather a condition of heart. They had their heart set on their father the satan but most likely fooled themselves by thinking being really loyal and zealous servants of God. That's just speculation on my part but I just cannot get how these scribes and Pharisees who clearly were the learned elite of their time, would be foolish enough to oppose the very one they thought they were serving. Unless their mind played a trick on them. Now I know from personal experience how the mind plays tricks.

We can get all high and righteous about God and talk all day about Him, go to church service and sing worship songs, read the bible and keep our appearances like the scribes did and actually believe ourselves we are truly on fire for God. Well what does the bible say about that? It says that your actions and deeds will show what you really are. It's happened to me so incredibly many times that I'm filled with God in my life and feeling strong in Him but I get caught in my actions not being compassionate, not helping the needy, not giving the poor etc. but feeling super righteous about going to a concert and talking about God with everyone. It's a condition of heart. My mind feels holy, my heart tells the truth through my actions. Now let me ask you again: which do you think is biblically considered worship, when I worship God in my heart, or when I think I'm worshiping Him, but it's all in my mind, and I'm the only one who believes into it? Worship is spiritual act, not performance. You can give away all you have but if your heart is not in it, it becomes performance and the bible states God could not care less of your offering. That's how it happens to be in matthew talking about believers who come to The Lord calling him; ' Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name and in your name drive out demons and in your name perform many miracles?'
Now let me ask you do these guys sound like bad believers? I mean they did drive out demons and did many miracles in the name of The Lord right? How many miracles have we done in the name of The Lord? I haven't done many. It's not even I who can do them, only God can but that's beside the point.

My point here being is clearly these guys seemingly strong enough in their faith to be given the power of God through them to cast out demons snd perform miracles in Jesus name, didn't have their heart in the right place to qualify true worshipers of God. It's quite very harsh isn't it? Fear of The Lord should fill our mind just at the very thought of it. Guys performing what I have not done for God, not qualifying but Jesus telling them he never knew them, get away evil doers ! That stuff is so real it should make our face white.

Yet we have people boldly going around saying they are confident in their faith and yea I can do this and that and I don't think it's a problem.. Now I'm not the one who can say if it's a problem or not. But I don't dare take it lightly either. Not when the bible says in James 4:4 You adulterous people, don't you know that friendship with the world means enmity against God? Therefore, anyone who chooses to be a friend of the world becomes an enemy of God.

That's all the coercion I need to really ponder what it means to give worship to God. Does God ask us to give 10% or 50% of our lives to him? Or does he ask we voluntarily lay our lives down for him (100%) that's worship. Worship from the heart. Now let me ponder what it means to worship and lay my life down for God. It means I let go of my own reign and give it to Jesus. It means that even if I really really enjoy listening to a church burning Norwegian black metal band, I give it up for God, cuz it's not my life anymore, that was the life and autonomy I had when I was living dead in the world.

I know it seems harsh but doesn't it also seem harsh when God told Israel to not spare even men children or wives? Doesent it seem harsh when Israel (God's chosen people) wandered 40 years in the desert and God said most of them won't even qualify to the promised land? (That's an archetype for us believers) Does it not seem harsh when Jesus says it's a narrow path that leads to salvation? We would much rather like a broad 15 lane highway but sadly that's the one leading to a nasty place. Does it not seem harsh that Jesus came into world as saviour but will return with clothes dipped in blood with all the wrath of God being poured out into the world?

Let me show you why the wrath of God is coming in col 3:5 (Esv) : Put to death therefore what is earthly in you: sexual immorality, impurity, passion, evil desire, and covetousness, which is idolatry. (Idolatry= idol worship)

And it continues from another translation: For it is because of these things that the wrath of God will come upon the sons of disobedience. I chose another translation because it translates the disobedience which means breaking the will and word of God.

I know my tone of voice changed in this comment from a warm and fuzzy to quite strong. But it is for purpose, to show with excerpts from bible that while our God is Love on the flip side of the coin is his rghteousnes and wrath and its no joke. Im ending my commentary on rom 12:21 English Standard Version
I appeal to you therefore, brothers, by the mercies of God, to present your bodies as a living sacrifice, holy and acceptable to God, which is your spiritual worship.

Now I have previously said that I have exhausted what I had to say and therefore there is absolutely no reason for me to carry on this debate. We have all said our pieces and now we all can melt the info and digest it. I have to do it too. But there's no point going back and forth about it. I have changed my mind according some comments here that not necessarily all secular music is 'devil music' but still feel it's not a clear cut case.. If there is lyrics, or background that is spiritually incompatible with Jesus, i myself would stay rather away than risk it.. Sometimes even melodies can cause sensations and emotions that are spiritually uncomfortable, carmina burana being one example. It certainly does not evoke peace, love or harmony on emotional level and therefore I wouldn't consider it prime Christian music if you wanna be on Loving mood to serve God joyfully. Even if it wasn't composed by a satan worshiper or to be tribute to satan. Again it's the heart that matters. I know the composer saw a dream of hell and composed the piece based upon that dream. He did not do it to glorify satan but still the end result is emotionally too close to satan for it to be my candidate on stereo emotionally speaking. It shows how something can have negative effect even when it's not intended to be glorifying satan. Even ice cream is not bad but too much of it hardly is taking care of the living temple, and taking care of it is also worship. Abusing it is wrong kind of worship, like getting wasted or high every sat night. It shows our freedom is in Christ when we abide in His Word and Love. Ie. give our worship (lives) to Him in obedience so that we may not be counted as sons of DISobedience.. When we profess to Love with our mouths but our actions show otherwise, it's time to rededicate our lives to Christ. Stay strong and be blessed all of you! And stay firm in God's Word! Don't take my babble for it, meditate and study yourselves. (Not that any would care for my babble)

Yeah. Listened to the new album. Bought it without testing first, because, hey, it's NW, I've not NOT enjoyed an album of theirs quite yet. Not enough to regret having bought it.

First time for everything. Alpenglow is the only song on there that remotely achieved their old talent of grabbing you by the heartstrings, telling you "Feel _____" and making you oblige them. Whimsy, innocence, imagination, fantasy, wonder, are replaced by desperately trying to find such things in cold scientific reality. Floor Jansen is FANTASTIC, but Tuomas didn't really let her shine like when she sings his older stuff. Endless Forms Most Beautiful is like a mulligan on Imaginaerium, with a new singer and less soul.

I realize I'm a latecomer to this discussion but thought maybe I could chime in with my thoughts as well.

Regardless of whether or not Tuomas is "Christian", his songs are, generally speaking, the offspring of his mind. By virtue of the fact that he's a songwriter, and an honest one at that, we all get a unique glimpse into his thoughts, feelings and mental journeys. That gives us clear information by which to judge his character and intentions. If we all put our thoughts and feelings on display to the world, even the most "Christian" and righteous amongst us would probably have a lot of explaining to do. I'm simply articulating here that we get the clarity to evaluate Tuomas here simply because he puts his laundry out there to be evaluated. Now certainly we all have a duty to guard out spiritual selves, and by virtue of the fact that he is "selling" his music for a living, we must certainly be on-guard about that which we consume, but in terms of the pure evaluation of his life/thoughts/mind, he is no more or less a contributor to the general world and background of "sin" than any of the rest of us.

As far as the music itself, I don't think any of us can say that all our words, deeds and works are in alignment with God. So it is with songwriters. I find an interesting dichotomoy, for example, on the new album. The song "The Greatest Show on Earth", despite being rooted in secular information and the secular way of gaining information (ie, the scientific method), is splendid in positive messages. It celebrates life, honoring life, the creation of life or evolution of life. It comes with a warning ala the Fermi Paradox and implores us to marshal in our appetites, our desires, our egos, etc. Despite being voiced-over by Dawkins, it resonates with me spiritually well. I contrast that with, for example, the song "Weak Fantasy", which of course lumps in all faith-based symptoms together as a damaging mythology that needs to be done away with by anyone mature enough to grow out of it. It's nasty, in my opinion, and down-right mean spirited (much like Dawkins himself).

Is it possible that Tuomas is going through a skeptical phase in his life (assuming he is in fact "Christian"). Sure. Will he grow out of it? Who knows. I would echo Pal-Dave's and other comments, however, that music (and many other aspects of life) need to be individually scrutinized by each person. What is misleading for one may be fine for another.

I really like Nightwish, but I too enjoyed their earlier stuff compared to their most recent stuff (seems to be a common trend with us metal heads ).

That said, I feel sorry for people that can only listen to music that upholds all their beliefs and their world view. If I did that, I would probably never be able to listen to any music. I even listen to black metal, not for the Satanic messages that are inherent in some black metal bands, but for the beautiful music and to be challenged. Despite what some people might say, I find that my faith gets stronger when it is challenged and I am forced to think. Others tend to have a weaker faith and they must remove any and all things that would "challenge" that world-view. I'm not judging, to each their own. However, if a song made me rethink my entire world-view, then how strong would my faith be to begin with? Something to ponder...

As I side note, I've found that the only good Christian metal is found in the black metal genre. For those who are interested, check out Antestor, Grave Declaration, Crimson Moonlight, and Horde.

Sean611 said:

I really like Nightwish, but I too enjoyed their earlier stuff compared to their most recent stuff (seems to be a common trend with us metal heads ).

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I guess I'm bucking the trend, as I actually prefer their more recent stuff.

Nightwish actually is a very demonic band, the music and fantasy itself is demonic, remember, all magic comes from the Devil and that also includes all fantasy creatures. All supernatural beings and powers not of the LORD Jesus Christ come from Satan, and power metal has Luciferian melodies and origins. Godly music is a better substitute, IMO.

I listened to them in the past. I used to post lyrics with friends on another site. I used to enjoy heavy metal and hard rock a great deal back then. I don't dislike the groups but I'm in a different place and that has impacted my habits. I prefer music without lyrics. Mostly classical and opera.

I'd notice a song popping in my thoughts unbidden. It was never Christian and sometimes it was way off base. I started paying attention to its occurrence and didn't want negative things coming into my head randomly without provocation.

I don't believe others should do the same. I made a choice based on my experiences and knowledge of what was being said. Feeding on positive words has had an alternative effect. I'm very happy and my joy is greater than it's ever been. And that isn't momentary. I wake and retire in the same state. This isn't wholly the result of changing my listening habits. I divested myself of other things and that made a difference.

Some of their songs (a lot of them actually), have Christian subject matter and not in a hateful or disagreeing tone. One of my favorite songs of theirs is Gethsemane, where Jesus prayed to the Father to be spared from the cross, because though "the spirit indeed is willing, the flesh is weak."
I figure the band itself has at least one Christian in it, and though not all their work is Christian in nature, some is, and it can be beautiful.

Can't wait to see them at Sweden Rock Festival this summer. The singer Floor Jansen is amazing...

Their former lyrical content was much more centered around imagination, fantasy, longing, the pain of the poet, the tribulations of sin and even themes of Christianity. They're a band from Finland who formed on a civilization resting on cultural christianity, so that did play into the lyrical themes.

However, as soon as I found out who Richard Dawkins is and the fact that he introduces the the first song from 2015's "Endless Forms Most Beautiful" (Which I still think is their last good album) with "The deepest solace lies in understanding. This ancient unseen stream. A Shudder before the beautiful.", I began to realize that as Nightwish's music has gone into a much more secular humanist/naturalist perspective on their lyrical content, their music has stagnated. I mean, really stagnated. They're not even the same band they were back with classics like "Oceanborn", "Wishmaster", "Century Child", and "Once". No more Marco Hielata on bass and vocals now. So 3 out of the classic lineup of 5 are no longer with the band: Jukka (drummer and friend of Tuomas), Tarja (Original singer), and Marco (great bass player with a great set of vocal pipes).

I'm not here to say what is and what isn't "kosher" to listen to. That's not for me to say. I follow my conscious. If it made me feel uncomfortable to listen to even in my agnostic days, I would skip over it. I'm sure members of the 101st Scripture Squadron will descend on this comment with possible indifference while I hope not. I appreciate educated individuals but I don't really have anything to say as I'm on my own spiritual journey and I'm no longer interested in anyone but a personal relationship with Jesus Christ and am pursuing that through scripture and will be getting confirmed down the line.