Vance makes his debut as VP on the international stage at a high-stakes AI summit in Paris

The Liturgist said:

Alas that is historically inaccurate.. Communist China actively involved itself in the politics of several African and Latin American countries, including Tanzania and Peru.

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But not in the USA or Western Europe, as Russia today does.

The Liturgist said:

In retrospect, we should never have allowed the PRC to take the place of the Republic of China at the UN and in diplomatic relations, and the UK should never have returned Hong Kong to them.

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A dwarf like Taiwan with a permanent seat in the security council was irrational, so the seat to the PRC was inevitable.

As to Hong Kong, a plebiscite whether the people wanted to join Taiwan or the PRC would have been better. But maybe China was too strong to risk that. But in retrospect …

The Liturgist said:

But since that happened, this creates a strategic imperative to partner with Russia to counter the threat of an expanding China.

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You cannot partner with someone who attacks you. Putin once said he wanted USA and NATO to be destroyed. Europe tried to make partnership with Russia, but Putin did use such partnership only to attack us (e.g. killing critics abroad, hacker attacks from Russia, …).

The Liturgist said:

This situation will continue until India becomes a superpower. Once there are four legitimate nuclear superpowers (since Britain and France have neglected their nuclear arsenals to a large extent, although France less so than the UK), geopolitical stability should increase, since the incentive to triangulate will disappear. It is triangulation that makes groups of three so inherently politically unstable.

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I doubt that 4 powers are that much more stable then 3.

The Liturgist said:

One famous American author remarked that in politics, no shape is as unstable as a triangle. As we can see from the collapses of the Roman Triumvirates.

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You cannot equate all kinds of triangulation. The »check and balance« idea is based on the triangulation of legislative, executive and judiciary.

Helmut-WK said:

But not in the USA or Western Europe, as Russia today does.

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Russia has no involvement in contemporary US politics. They used to broadcast RT here, but RT has been dropped by all of the cable providers and banned from YouTube and the Russians appear to have given up.

Helmut-WK said:

A dwarf like Taiwan with a permanent seat in the security council was irrational, so the seat to the PRC was inevitable.

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By that logic the UK and France should not have seats in the security council. Taiwan is the legitimate government of China, having been illegally deposed by a Communist insurrection supported, in violation of international law, by the Soviet Union. But later the PRC and the USSR had a falling out, and the US capitalized on this as a way of reducing Soviet influence, in a strategic masterstroke by Kissinger and Nixon. We should attempt the same kind of triangulation with Russia, with whom we share common values such as the Christian religion and an opposition to sexual immorality.

Additionally, China is the worst polluter on Earth and has caused incalcuable environmental harm, and their economy needs to be cut off in order to stop the damage. The best way to save the planet is frankly to get people to stop buying products made in the People’s Republic of China and certain other developing countries which have a demonstrated lack of care for environmental safety. This will do far more than banning petrol engined luxury cars and other anti-personal freedom measures proposed by the left.

Helmut-WK said:

You cannot partner with someone who attacks you.

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In WWII, the US partnered very successfully with the Soviet Union to defeat Nazi Germany. The Soviet Union was historically much more hostile to the US than the Russian Federation ever has been, and did not share our values, being a militant atheist state. Russia is at least a Christian state, like the US, and some of our European allies such as Hungary. US foreign policy should be defined by a desire to preserve the Judeo-Christian heritage of our nation, which has historically been a bastion for Christianity in all denominations, and of Judaism.

Larniavc said:

Putting isn’t going to use nukes.

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First.

The Liturgist said:

My point was that responding to a criticism of your country’s policies regarding freedom of speech by saying that the critic had no right to make such an argument has the effect of proving their point.

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I'm sorry - I can't hear what you said over the sound of the Trump Regime attacking all the thought-crimes in universities! If there's no leniency for university students experimenting with different political philosophies - the young and ideological who are still developing - still growing up - what hope is there for the rest of us?

eclipsenow said:

I'm sorry - I can't hear what you said over the sound of the Trump Regime attacking all the thought-crimes in universities! If there's no leniency for university students experimenting with different political philosophies - the young and ideological who are still developing - still growing up - what hope is there for the rest of us?

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The only political philosophies that need to be taught are the right ones!

Pommer said:

The only political philosophies that need to be taught are the right ones!

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I see what you did there!
The right ones - not the left ones - or the middle ones - or the Ordo ones - but the right ones! The approved ones!
And Vance lectures the EU about free speech?
Wow - just wow.
That's double-think plus!
Thought crime. It's now a thing.

The Liturgist said:

Russia has no involvement in contemporary US politics.

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You forgot the so-called email affair in 2016. It was driven by Russia.

The Liturgist said:

They used to broadcast RT here, but RT has been dropped by all of the cable providers and banned from YouTube and the Russians appear to have given up.

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No, they went to twiiter (aka X).

The Liturgist said:

By that logic the UK and France should not have seats in the security council.

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They have almost five times the population, and they have atomic bombs.

The Liturgist said:

Taiwan is the legitimate government of China

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Based on a election before WWII broke out in China with the 1937 attack from Japan.

In Taiwan, the party that has won the election (Guomindang) has lost elections (and won the next time, but …)

The Liturgist said:

We should attempt the same kind of triangulation with Russia, with whom we share common values such as the Christian religion and an opposition to sexual immorality.

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Well, in 2022 Russia released convicted sexual offenders (rapists and the like) from prison and let them participate in the attack against the Ukraine. If you want to know what they did there, remember what happened e.g. in Butcha.

Hitler also praised family values, homosexuals were executed, abortion was forbidden (with some exception, if »lower races« or racial »mixture«, called Rassenschande, i.e. racial shame, was involved). This is about the same level of morality as in Russia.

The Liturgist said:

Additionally, China is the worst polluter on Earth

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China has done the first steps to reduce pollution. So maybe Trump will make America as the greatest polluter on earth again?

The Liturgist said:

The best way to save the planet is frankly to get people to stop buying products made in the People’s Republic of China and certain other developing countries which have a demonstrated lack of care for environmental safety.

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By that logic, we should start to boycott the USA. They are a rich country (richer than Europe), and have the money to reduce pollution, unlike many so-called developing countries.

The Liturgist said:

This will do far more than banning petrol engined luxury cars and other anti-personal freedom measures proposed by the left.

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If we don't stop using any petrol or coal without compensation before 2030, the climate change will reduce our lifes (and our freedom) more than these small inconveniences.

The Liturgist said:

In WWII, the US partnered very successfully with the Soviet Union to defeat Nazi Germany.

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At that time, there was no arrack from USSR against USA.

The Liturgist said:

The Soviet Union was historically much more hostile to the US than the Russian Federation ever has been, and did not share our values, being a militant atheist state. Russia is at least a Christian state,

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Russia was a Christian state before the Tsar had to abdicate (half a year later the communists took over), and the state's (Orthodox) church persecute Christians from the »wrong« churches.

After the civil war, the Orthodox church was persecuted, but other churches had much freedom (this was the time when the number of Russians Baptists exploded). The communist could not imagine that Christian faith would flourish when the people were enlightened by their propaganda. In 1928, Stalin began to persecute the Church, and I assume you know the rest of that story.

By now, the Orthodox church is a state church again, and religious freedom in Russian is limited, especially for »sects« like Baptists or Lutherans. Not a bloody persecution as under the Tsar (as you guessed: the communists were ever worse, much worse), but they are under close surveillance. I regularly get news about religious freedom from the Ger,man evangelical alliance, and sometimes Russia is mentioned. The Ukraine is only mentioned with problems in the Russian occupied regions.

The Liturgist said:

US foreign policy should be defined by a desire to preserve the Judeo-Christian heritage of our nation, which has historically been a bastion for Christianity in all denominations, and of Judaism.

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So the Ukraine would be a far better partner than Russia.

The Liturgist said:

Russia has no involvement in contemporary US politics.

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Have you ever watched Youtubers Tim Pool, Benny Johnson, Lauren Southern? These pro-Trump youtubers were part of a $10 million RT scheme to influence American opinion to be against Ukraine and Pro-Trump. They attack Ukraine as a terrorist nation and the greatest threat to America. They have millions of subscribers. They have influence. And their money comes from Russia - even though they thought it came from a Belgian Billionaire (now known to be a fake personna).
Matt Bevan is my favourite Australian ABC reporter. The first part of his 18 minute show usually runs a historical comparison for reference, then does a concise deep dive into recent events - scattered with Australian humour. He also used to go to our church before he moved a few hours north of Sydney. Enjoy. What do you make of his geopolitical and ethical questions at the end?
The DOJ confirmed all this.
"U.S. Attorney Damian Williams said: “As alleged, the Russian state broadcaster RT orchestrated a massive scheme to influence the American public by secretly planting and financing a content creation company on U.S. soil. The instruments of the scheme were RT employees Kostiantyn Kalashnikov and Elena Afanasyeva, who managed the operation from Moscow using fake personas and shell companies, and the victims of the scheme were the American people, who received Russian messaging without knowing it. As the charges unsealed today demonstrate, this Office will work with our law enforcement partners to unmask and hold accountable all those who conduct malign influence campaigns in the United States, no matter how hard they try to hide their tracks.”" Two RT Employees Indicted For Covertly Funding And Directing U.S. Company That Published Thousands Of Videos In Furtherance Of Russian Interests

The Liturgist said:

They used to broadcast RT here,

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See above. In effect - it's almost like they still do!

Now - regarding free speech.

You never got back to us on what you thought about Zelenskyy marching into the Oval Office with this message:

"Mr Trump - I'm concerned that the United States of America is stifling 'free speech'. Unless you let democrats take a third of your Committee positions - I'm afraid that you are not really embracing the values of your First Amendment!'

It would be great if you got back to us on this, because this thread is about Vance and his performance and claims.

eclipsenow said:

Have you ever watched Youtubers Tim Pool, Benny Johnson, Lauren Southern?

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Nope. I had never even heard of them. My objection to military support for Ukraine is based on a genuine fear of nuclear reprisal combined with a belief Zelensky should have surrendered, and that the discussions about including Ukraine in NATO were a provocation comparable to the Cuban Missile Crisis.

Additionally I am of the view that the decision of the USSR to allocate to the Ukrainian SSR regions which had Russian majority populations which were previously a part of the RSFSR was entirely wrong, almost as bad as the allocation of Armenian majority areas to the Azerbaijan SSR. It seems as if the USSR wished to ensure strife and conflict would erupt if the member states such as Russia, Ukraine, Armenia, Georgia, etc were to leave or there was otherwise a loss of central control of the Soviet Union.

The Liturgist said:

Nope. I had never even heard of them. My objection to military support for Ukraine

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But I've answered that?
1. Where does it stop? Give him back the whole former Soviet Union? The whole of Europe as well? Let him and Ping and Trump carve up the map in a new Yalta 2.0 based on whatever brain bubble Trump's been manipulated into thinking in the last 5 minutes?
2. We've had proxie wars with Russia before.
3. We're not going to put boots on the ground.
4. It's an economic & military aid exercise - the Ukrainians are dying for us.

The Liturgist said:

is based on a genuine fear of nuclear reprisal combined with a belief Zelensky should have surrendered, and that the discussions about including Ukraine in NATO were a provocation comparable to the Cuban Missile Crisis.

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He wants you to think that. But would he really end the world over it? Because based on the latest science, it would take generations to recover from a full scale exchange between Russia and NATO - and then you would likely end up with Aussies saying "G'day mate" when ordering a croissant in France or buying perog in Moscow. Because only Australia and Argentina would have survived while everyone else starves to death in the dark.

The Liturgist said:

Additionally I am of the view that the decision of the USSR to allocate to the Ukrainian SSR regions which had Russian majority populations which were previously a part of the RSFSR was entirely wrong, almost as bad as the allocation of Armenian majority areas to the Azerbaijan SSR. It seems as if the USSR wished to ensure strife and conflict would erupt if the member states such as Russia, Ukraine, Armenia, Georgia, etc were to leave or there was otherwise a loss of central control of the Soviet Union.

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They did have a lot of Russian speaking folk. There were some in the population who did not like the economic insecurity of the new Ukraine - and longed for the 'golden years' of the USSR funding their pensions etc. That the whole thing had gone bankrupt seems to have escaped their selective memory!

Like your selective memory in how much Putin was the source of funding and inflaming all those troubles in those regions in the first place!

Now - again:

Now - regarding free speech.

You never got back to us on what you thought about Zelenskyy marching into the Oval Office with this message:

"Mr Trump - I'm concerned that the United States of America is stifling 'free speech'. Unless you let democrats take a third of your Committee positions - I'm afraid that you are not really embracing the values of your First Amendment!'

It would be great if you got back to us on this, because this thread is about Vance and his performance and claims.

Always in His Presence said:

Nor can we hear you over the sound of breaking glass, the shouts of death to America, the burning of American flags and the attacks on student of the Jewish race who paid to be there.

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Did the individual being 'taken' by the government do these things?

Oh - and when your government backs Israel to the point where Israel has killed over 50 TIMES more Palestinians than Israelis were murdered in the horrific Hamas terrorist attack - have not Israel become the same?

There's this thing called Just War Theory.
Augustine of Hippo developed these principles.
Your President should look them up!

Or - because I know he has not read a book in his adult life - he should rewatch "The West Wing" - they had a good episode on it.

Always in His Presence said:

That in itself make him a miraculous man. Think about it. Someone who has not read a book his whole adult life (and you know it), graduates a private military school,

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So daddy paid for him to go to a private school? What's new? Donald was pampered and got so much pocket money he was a millionaire by the time he was 8 years old!

Always in His Presence said:

graduates Weaton college,

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Yeah - with what grades huh? Oh yeah - we don't know. He keeps them secret.
And it's just so sad about his 'heel spurs' keeping him out of Vietnam - even though he loved track and field to chase all those girls.
A 'miracle man' indeed!

Always in His Presence said:

takes 119mllion and turns it into 5 billion plus,

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Yes, and it was all above board, legal, ethical, and didn't rip any investors off at all! No really! Everyone says so - even New York City talks about Trump as if he had a cute little halo glowing over his head.

Always in His Presence said:

has a multi year award winning reality television shows

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Please - I just had lunch!

Always in His Presence said:

runs 350 corporations on multiple continents and wins not one, but two national elections to the highest office in the US beating the best the other party had to offer

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Sadly - that says more about Americans than it does about Trump.

eclipsenow said:

1. Where does it stop? Give him back the whole former Soviet Union? The whole of Europe as well?

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You forgot to mention Alaska - it is on the wish list of Putin's followers in Russia, and Putin does nothing (to say the least) to stop this.

Always in His Presence said:

That in itself make him a miraculous man. Think about it. Someone who has not read a book his whole adult life (and you know it), […] takes 119mllion and turns it into 5 billion plus

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Really? I remember Trump went to bankrupt several rimes. It was in German magazines in the 1990s or so. Also, when Trump was elected in 3016, news went through forums that the »Simpsons« TV series had prophesied this. But looking into the details: it was only a joke, that Lisa became president after Trump as president got the USA to become bankrupt - he was the suitable person then to invent such a joke.

Always in His Presence said:

has a multi year award winning reality television shows

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He is good at selling himself, he probably became better in this art by that show.

Always in His Presence said:

Can you imagine what he could have done if he had read even one book?

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I can't speak for eclipsenow. My guess is: He would have got more real achievements, but less pseudo-achievements.