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The God-likeness of Mary: Marian Maximalism Explained Through the Life of Mary

The Liturgist

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Yes, I agree with the teaching of Ephesians 4:4-6, but those verses are not talking about the Roman Catholic Church.

I would agree with that. However, I cannot fault a Roman Catholic for disagreeing, because the early church was undivided by any long-lasting schisms (even the schisms caused by Nestorius in the fifth century are less clear-cut than many assume; for example, the Assyrian Church of the East has been using an Aramaic translation of the Chalcedonian formula since the fifth century, and the Oriental Orthodox are not Monophysites; frequently, the Church of the East was regarded as the legitimate church in the Persian Empire and in other lands east of the Greco-Roman oikumene, except for Georgia, Armenia and Edessa and parts of Arabia, and contained anti-Nestorian elements, and their main distinguishing doctrine was a belief in Apoktatassis along the lines of St. Gregory of Nyssa, and indeed, St. Isaac the Syrian is venerated as a saint by the Roman Catholics, Eastern Orthodox and Oriental Orthodox (and some Old Calendarists are in denial about the fact that he was a member of the Church of the East who believed in apokatasis, which has since ceased to be a doctrine officially taught by the remnants of the Church of the East). Likewise, the Oriental Orthodox are effectively the Orthodox churches of those historically non-Greek speaking populations of Egypt and Syria, and of the Armenians, Ethiopians and, since the Coonan Cross Oath following the Portuguese conquest of Malankara, the Mar Thoma Christians, and in the 19th century the Greek Orthodox Church of Alexandria and the Coptic Orthodox Church tried to merge into a unified Egyptian Orthodox Church but were prevented from doing so by the Khedive.

The Syriac Orthodox and the Antiochians have a sweeping ecumenical relationship to the extent that one cannot convert from one church to the other (except in those parts of the diaspora where the Antiochians established an autonomous church, since at least the AOCNA, which was originally a ministry of the Russian Orthodox to the Syrian immigrants in the US until the rise of the Soviet Union caused the breakup of the Russian Orthodox Church in North America into multiple jurisdictions, but for this reason the AOCNA and the OCA, ROCOR and the UOCNA share a common repertoire of Church Slavonic hymns, and the AOCNA also use Syro-Byzantine Chant, which is dominant in the Antiochian church in the Old Country, and various liturgical settings according to four part harmony many of them of Greek Orthodox provenance, by composers such as Michaelides. This is the type of church music that was preferred by St. Peter Moghila.

Rather, the first enduring schism that really hardened was that between the Orthodox and Roman Catholics, and following the schism, the Roman Catholic Church proceeded to engage in a course of conduct that led to further schisms with the Waldensians, the Moravians, and then the Lutherans and then an explosion of additional Protestant groups, including the Anabaptists, and the early English baptists. I am directly descended from one of the first Baptist ministers in America.

Thus, these long-term schisms pose complex questions of ecclesiology. I cannot fault members of the traditional churches for adhering to the ecclesiology of the early church, that there is one visible unified church, because that was the case. The local church ecclesiology embraced by Baptists and Congregationlists and Luther’s ecclesiology which appears based around the existence of correct worship (the literal definition of Orthodoxy and Pravoslavie is Correct Glorification) I find appealing, and then there is the Branch Ecclesiology model commonly found among Anglicans and Old Catholics. Finally there is the Invisible Church Ecclesiology, which I am not a fan of.
 
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AveChristusRex

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the Syriac Catholics, the Chaldean Catholics, the Syro-Malabar Catholics and the Malankara Catholics, the name of the Holy Apostle Peter is consistently rendered as Cephas
In Galatians 2:7, St. Paul explicitly refers to St. Peter: "On the contrary, when they saw that I had been entrusted with the Gospel to the uncircumcised, just as Peter had been entrusted with the Gospel to the circumcised..." Likewise, in Galatians 2:8, we read: "For he who worked in Peter for the apostolate of the circumcision worked also in me among the Gentiles." In both verses, the name "Peter" (Πέτρος, Petros) is used, and in the Latin Vulgate, we find Petrus. However, in the very next verse, Galatians 2:9, we see a shift: "And when James and Cephas and John, who seemed to be pillars, perceived the grace that was given to me, they gave the right hand of fellowship to Barnabas and me, that we should go to the Gentiles and they to the circumcised."

Here, instead of "Peter," Paul suddenly uses the name Cephas (Κηφᾶς). This change is significant. In the Latin Vulgate, Galatians 2:9 does not contain Petrus but rather Cephas (Chaephas). This shift continues in Galatians 2:11: "But when Cephas came to Antioch, I withstood him to the face because he was blameworthy." Again, we do not find Petrus in the Latin Vulgate or in the Greek manuscripts, but rather Cephas. The same occurs in Galatians 2:14: "But when I saw that they walked not uprightly unto the truth of the gospel, I said to Cephas before them all: If thou, being a Jew, livest after the manner of the Gentiles, and not as the Jews do, how dost thou compel the Gentiles to live as do the Jews?’"

In these verses, the Greek manuscripts use Cephas (Κηφᾶς), and the Latin Vulgate uses Chaephas (Chaephae in the dative form). This shift in Galatians 2 is a strong indication that St. Paul is referring to two different people. Cephas (Κηφᾶς) and Petros (Πέτρος) are different words, even though Petros is a translation of Cephas. If someone were writing in Greek, Latin, or English and used "Peter" in one verse and "Cephas" in another, they would be using two different words, not two forms of the same word. In Latin and Greek, the ending of a noun can change depending upon the role the word plays in a sentence, such as when it's the subject, the direct object, the indirect object, etc. Thus, Cephas becomes Chaephae in this instance. However, even if the ending or form of a noun changes because of the role it plays in the sentence, it’s still the same word in both cases. Cephas and Chaephae are different forms of the very same word. Likewise, Petrus and Petro are different forms of the same word. But note well: Cephas/Chaephae is not the same word as Petrus/Petro; they are different words.

Likewise, in English, Peter is not the same word as Cephas; they are different words. Likewise, in Greek, Petros is not the same word as Kephas; they are different words, even though Petros is a translation of Kephas. So, if someone is writing in one language—whether in Greek, Latin, or English—and refers to Peter and then refers to Cephas, he’s using two different words, not two forms of the same word. Moreover, since Peter (Petros in Greek) comes from Kephas, why would St. Paul twice refer to the man as Peter in Galatians 2:7–8, and then suddenly start calling him Cephas in Galatians 2:9–14? It doesn’t make sense that he would do such a thing. What does make sense, however, is that St. Paul wasn’t referring to St. Peter at all in Galatians 2:11 and Galatians 2:14, when he described the person he rebuked for refusing to eat with Gentiles who did not observe the Mosaic Law. Rather, he was referring to an entirely different person who had the same Aramaic name as Peter.

I don't quite know what point you're getting to with the other message, but as for this I can give a rational response. God bless!:crossrc:
 
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AveChristusRex

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But it's not a bad example. It shows that the fact that the preacher was an apostle did not mean that the Bereans accepted his preaching without question. The checked in the bible they had, as you say, the Old Testament.
One further comment on this is about St. Paul’s second trip to Jerusalem: “Then, after fourteen years, I went up again to Jerusalem with Barnabas, taking Titus along with me. I went up because of a revelation, and I laid before them the gospel which I preached among the Gentiles, although privately to those who seemed to be something, lest perhaps I should be running or had run in vain” (Galatians 2:1–2). Note that he 'laid before those who seemed to be something,' or were of repute, the gospel that he preached. This shows that the Scriptures, at least to St. Paul, were not the only thing necessary to understand God enough to have an accurate and salvific relationship with Him, as Protestant scholar Douglas J. Moo was forced to admit: "He [Paul] does go to Jerusalem he present his gospel for evaluation by the leaders there, and he does express concern about their verdict" (Douglas J. Moo, Galatians, Baker Exegetical Commentary, 2013, Gal. 2). Why, if as you say, the Church has little authority over the Word of God, does St. Paul present his gospel to the leaders of the Church in Jerusalem for evaluation, and was even concerned over their verdict? It would appear that the Church ruled over the Scriptures, even during St. Paul's time, just as they did during the compilation of such Scriptures into one volume, and just as they do now.

Note also that according to Acts 15:2, St. Paul was appointed to go to the Apostles in Jerusalem about a controversy. It shows that St. Paul did not believe the Scriptures were the only thing necessary to understand God enough to have an accurate and salvific relationship with Him; rather, he looked to the authority of the church to resolve the question.
 
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David Lamb

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It was a matter of conception, as I stated.

He did not preach infallibly; as I said, he preached as a fallible Apostle, and thus his preachings could/should have been checked for accuracy and consistency.

The Bible itself was discerned, compiled, and preserved by the Church, which means the authority of the Church necessarily precedes the authority of Scripture in practice. If Scripture alone is your authority for faith, but Scripture itself doesn’t save, what ensures that your faith is properly directed toward salvation?

Actually, that's not true. In Acts 8:14-17, "Now when the apostles at Jerusalem heard that Samaria had received the word of God, they sent to them Peter and John, who came down and prayed for them that they might receive the Holy Spirit, for he had not yet fallen on any of them, but they had only been baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. Then they laid their hands on them and they received the Holy Spirit." It explicitly states that although the Samaritans were baptized, they had not yet received the Holy Spirit. They only received baptism, but did not receive the apostolic laying on of hands (what would later develop into the sacrament of Confirmation), so they had not yet received the Holy Spirit. It was only when Sts. Peter and John lay hands on them did they fully recieve the Holy Spirit; and, as throughout Acts, St. Peter is consistently depicted as the leader of the apostles (Acts 2:14, Acts 3:6, Acts 10:44-48), we can see that St. Peter acted as a mediator of the Spirit, only being gifted the Holy Spirit through the Apostles and, especially, St. Peter.

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That is strange. I thought (apologies if I am wrong) that you believed that popes and other Roman Catholic leaders receive their authority through apostolic succession, yet here you say that Paul, who was an apostle, preached as a fallible Apostle, and therefore it was necessary to check his preaching in the bible. Yet you also say that the church (by which you mean the Roman Catholic church) has more authority than the bible. You wrote: "The Bible itself was discerned, compiled, and preserved by the Church, which means the authority of the Church necessarily precedes the authority of Scripture in practice. "
 
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AveChristusRex

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That is strange. I thought (apologies if I am wrong) that you believed that popes and other Roman Catholic leaders receive their authority through apostolic succession,
They do.
yet here you say that Paul, who was an apostle, preached as a fallible Apostle, and therefore it was necessary to check his preaching in the bible. Yet you also say that the church (by which you mean the Roman Catholic church) has more authority than the bible. You wrote: "The Bible itself was discerned, compiled, and preserved by the Church, which means the authority of the Church necessarily precedes the authority of Scripture in practice. "
The verse is speaking on the preaching of Sts. Paul and Silas in Berea (Acts 17:10), yet [while St. Paul was an apostle with divine authority] preaching is still a fallible act, in the same way that Papal encyclicals [while nominally of the truth] are indeed fallible and can be analyzed. Moreover, the Bereans were not yet Christians; they were Jews who only had the Old Testament. Such Bereans first received Paul’s teaching “with all readiness” before examining the Scriptures; which shows an openness to apostolic authority rather than a principle of independent judgment in opposition to it. Therefore, Bereans were not applying a principle of private judgment in the reformed sense (where each individual decides doctrine for themselves); rather, they were verifying whether Paul's claims about Jesus as the Messiah aligned with the Old Testament prophecies.

This also was an isolated situation, as once the faith was established, it was the Church [not individuals in isolation] that authoritatively interpreted Scripture (1 Tim. 3:15, 2 Pet. 1:20-21).
 
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