Trump, Vance and Zelenskyy spar over Russian war in tense exchange at White House

BPPLEE · Mar 5, 2025

Trogdor the Burninator said:
I find it disturbing that you support the US despite it having a form of conscription too - one for which a failure to register, even for non-citizens, carries a five year prison term.

Selective Service System - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

I find it even more disturbing that you support a draft-dodging coward of a president who hasn’t removed this system despite winning office twice.

The US hasn't had a draft since January of 1973. 18 year olds still have to register but no one is being conscripted

sanderabeer · Mar 5, 2025

BPPLEE said:
People are being taken against their will and forced into military service. Calling it an arrest or conscription may sound better but it's not much different than kidnapping in reality

Would you define the following as kidnapping?

Growing up in Fresno, Calif., I believed in “my country, right or wrong,” just like everyone I knew. I could not have anticipated that when I came of age I would realize that my country was wrong and that I would have to do something about it. When I did, everything changed for me.

I went from Fresno High School Boy of the Year 1963, Stanford Class of 1967, to Prisoner 4697-159, C Block, maximum security, La Tuna Federal Correctional Institution, near El Paso.

I was among the quarter-million to half-million men who violated the law that required us to register for military service and face deployment to Vietnam — the draft. About 25,000 of us were indicted for our disobedience, almost 9,000 convicted and 3,250 jailed. I am proud to have been one of the men who, from behind bars, helped pull our country out of its moral quagmire.

Source: https://archive.ph/eXE8x

BPPLEE · Mar 5, 2025

sanderabeer said:
Would you define the following as kidnapping?

Source: https://archive.ph/eXE8x

Yeah, it's not much different That's why we don't have a draft anymore.
A volunteer force is more motivated anyway

sanderabeer · Mar 5, 2025

BPPLEE said:
Yeah, it's not much different

I don't agree with you, but you're consistent. I respect that.

Ignatius the Kiwi · Mar 5, 2025

Trogdor the Burninator said:
I find it disturbing that you support the US despite it having a form of conscription too - one for which a failure to register, even for non-citizens, carries a five year prison term.

Selective Service System - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

I find it even more disturbing that you support a draft-dodging coward of a president who hasn’t removed this system despite winning office twice.

I don't support the US or compelling men to fight wars they don't want to fight. Why do you?

Ignatius the Kiwi · Mar 5, 2025

sanderabeer said:
I've only seen evidence for them conscripting and arresting draft dodgers. Do you have evidence that they are kidnapping people?

I've seen the clips on less politically correct websites. The war footage. It's happening and I doubt you'd accept it even if you saw it.

sanderabeer said:
Why?

Because conscription is evil. Especially when you are not willing to fight in a war you support and desire conscription for

Ignatius the Kiwi · Mar 5, 2025

sanderabeer said:
I am willing to grant Ignatius some grace on this point. He claims to be a Kiwi, so perhaps he's not familiar with our laws.

I am familiar with conscription and consider it morally reprehensible. Do you believe Zelensky can force men who don't want to fight to die on the front lines? Why?

sanderabeer · Mar 5, 2025

Ignatius the Kiwi said:
I've seen the clips on less politically correct websites. The war footage. It's happening and I doubt you'd accept it even if you saw it.

I am open minded, but I apply critical thinking. I approach such things with skepticism because it's too easy to "fake" such things. Videos can be stages, edited, altered, or even mislabeled. And given that the stakes are high, it's important to be skeptical and approach them with critical thinking.

So, if you have evidence, I'm open to exploring it.

Ignatius the Kiwi said:
I am familiar with conscription and consider it morally reprehensible.

What is your basis for this claim?

Ignatius the Kiwi said:
Do you believe Zelensky can force men who don't want to fight to die on the front lines? Why?

Can? Yes. Should? Not sure.

Ignatius the Kiwi · Mar 6, 2025

sanderabeer said:
I am open minded, but I apply critical thinking. I approach such things with skepticism because it's too easy to "fake" such things. Videos can be stages, edited, altered, or even mislabeled. And given that the stakes are high, it's important to be skeptical and approach them with critical thinking.

I think you have not been exposed to the videos surrounding this war and the how this is basically the most televised war in all of history. That there is numerous footage out there but you will simply deny it when presented to you through infinite appeals to skeptifcism. The BBC article linked shows that press ganging in question. Do you believe people must be forced to fight in a war they don't want to fight in? Is this justified?

Or what about this?

The footage is out there, you just will deliberately ignore it.

sanderabeer said:
What is your basis for this claim?

That it is immoral to force people to fight a war that they do not support. Can you justify sending unwilling Ukrainian men to the front? Why does the state get to determine what a man is going to fight for? Conscription is horrific.

sanderabeer said:
Can? Yes. Should? Not sure.

Should Zelensky be doing this if he claims that Ukraine is willing to fight? Why does Ukraine need conscription since we have been assured that every Ukrainian is willing to fight to the last Ukrainian?

Trogdor the Burninator · Mar 6, 2025

Ignatius the Kiwi said:
I am familiar with conscription and consider it morally reprehensible. Do you believe Zelensky can force men who don't want to fight to die on the front lines? Why?

I can agree with your stance to some extent, assuming that you apply it at least as equally to Russia.

So we agree? Putin is evil, Russians should not be forced into the army and their imperialist invasion force should leave Ukraine and save Russian lives?

Ignatius the Kiwi · Mar 6, 2025

Trogdor the Burninator said:
I can agree with your stance to some extent, assuming that you apply it at least as equally to Russia.

So we agree? Putin is evil, Russians should not be forced into the army and their imperialist invasion force should leave Ukraine and save Russian lives?

I said conscription is evil, not that the people who do it are necessarily evil. One can understand why states do it. But yes, Russia and your own country are in the wrong for having a draft.

The point in me bringing it up is to undermine the notion that Ukraine is a country willingly fighting this war. That it seems possible that many of it's soldiers are dragged to the front via the use of state coercion and this is because they are suffering a manpower deficit. Should a nation in such a state fight to the end? Or should it come to terms?

I also think you are wrong for thinking this is a war about imperialism. Putin was willing to agree to neutrality and some autonomy for the Eastern provinces remaining in Ukraine. He invaded Crimea in 2014 because of a large Russian Naval base there and the new Ukrainian regime with it's western leaning would likely not continue with that, so there was strategic concerns first and foremost. He's also not going to walk away when he's winning.

sanderabeer · Mar 6, 2025

Ignatius the Kiwi said:
I think you have not been exposed to the videos surrounding this war and the how this is basically the most televised war in all of history. That there is numerous footage out there but you will simply deny it when presented to you through infinite appeals to skeptifcism.

This response contains flawed reasoning. Let's break it down.

First, this makes the discussion about me. I am not the topic of discussion. The topic of discussion is whether or not the Ukrainian government is kidnapping Ukrainians and forcing them to fight. I emphasized the important word.

Second, you know almost nothing about me. You cannot possibly know what I have or have not been exposed to nor whether or not I will simply deny it. These are assumptions being made about me which cannot possibly be known by you or anyone else here at this time. And, as such, they amount to bearing false witness.

Ignatius the Kiwi said:
The BBC article linked shows that press ganging in question. Do you believe people must be forced to fight in a war they don't want to fight in? Is this justified?

Or what about this?

The footage is out there, you just will deliberately ignore it.

Again, this is not about me. This is about truth. Please stop making this about me and let's focus on discerning the truth.

Do you know for certain that what is seen in these videos is "kidnapping?" And if so, upon what basis is that claim being made?

I know that the BBC article quotes a Ukrainian national using the word kidnapping, but the article does not use the word itself. So, the only thing we have to go on here is the opinion of a Ukrainian national who doesn't want to be conscripted.

If it helps, consider how many times police officers in the US have been recorded doing something, had it presented as ill behavior, and later when the full context is known they were actually in the right. How do we know this is not the case here? This is why verification is important. This is why context is important.

Ignatius the Kiwi said:
That it is immoral to force people to fight a war that they do not support. Can you justify sending unwilling Ukrainian men to the front? Why does the state get to determine what a man is going to fight for? Conscription is horrific.

I did not claim conscription was moral nor immoral. You claimed it was moral. So I want to know what the basis of this claim is. How do you justify the claim?

Ignatius the Kiwi said:
Should Zelensky be doing this if he claims that Ukraine is willing to fight? Why does Ukraine need conscription since we have been assured that every Ukrainian is willing to fight to the last Ukrainian?

These are not issues I raised.

Ignatius the Kiwi · Mar 6, 2025

sanderabeer said:
Again, this is not about me. This is about truth. Please stop making this about me and let's focus on discerning the truth.

Do you know for certain that what is seen in these videos is "kidnapping?" And if so, upon what basis is that claim being made?

I know that the BBC article quotes a Ukrainian national using the word kidnapping, but the article does not use the word itself. So, the only thing we have to go on here is the opinion of a Ukrainian national who doesn't want to be conscripted.

If it helps, consider how many times police officers in the US have been recorded doing something, had it presented as ill behavior, and later when the full context is known they were actually in the right. How do we know this is not the case here? This is why verification is important. This is why context is important.

If someone is being dragged off against their will, is it not impressment? Do you consider it morally righteous to force people to fight in a war they don't want to participate in?

sanderabeer said:
I did not claim conscription was moral nor immoral. You claimed it was moral. So I want to know what the basis of this claim is. How do you justify the claim?

I already made the argument. That it is immoral to force someone to fight in a conflict they don't want to participate in. Why can't you address it?

sanderabeer said:
These are not issues I raised.

They are issues I have raised. You support Ukraine as somehow being morally superior to Russia. I am attempting to show they are not and in fact seem to be more guilty of forced conscription than Russia because the latter has more volunteers. Should we not then question the narrative that Ukraine wants to fight? Especially when the only ones saying this are westerners and Zelensky who wants the war to continue?

sanderabeer · Mar 6, 2025

Ignatius the Kiwi said:
I said conscription is evil, not that the people who do it are necessarily evil. One can understand why states do it. But yes, Russia and your own country are in the wrong for having a draft.

Why is it wrong?

Ignatius the Kiwi said:
The point in me bringing it up is to undermine the notion that Ukraine is a country willingly fighting this war. That it seems possible that many of it's soldiers are dragged to the front via the use of state coercion and this is because they are suffering a manpower deficit. Should a nation in such a state fight to the end? Or should it come to terms?

There is a counterpoint to this though. If we're going to object to "state coercion" in forcing people to fight, how should we feel about the coercion that Putin is applying to the Ukrainians? Should we reject self-determination and argue that they should just accept Putin's rule?

Ignatius the Kiwi said:
I also think you are wrong for thinking this is a war about imperialism. Putin was willing to agree to neutrality and some autonomy for the Eastern provinces remaining in Ukraine. He invaded Crimea in 2014 because of a large Russian Naval base there and the new Ukrainian regime with it's western leaning would likely not continue with that, so there was strategic concerns first and foremost. He's also not going to walk away when he's winning.

Whether or not this particularly war is about imperialism is going to be a tough sell given Putin's history.

Ignatius the Kiwi · Mar 6, 2025

sanderabeer said:
There is a counterpoint to this though. If we're going to object to "state coercion" in forcing people to fight, how should we feel about the coercion that Putin is applying to the Ukrainians? Should we reject self-determination and argue that they should just accept Putin's rule?

Do you consider it wrong for Putin to conscript Russians? Why? Does practical necessity and utilitarian reasoning determine what is right or wrong in this case? Do you also think that the Russian speakers in the Donbass/Crimea don't want to be part of Russia? Self determination isn't the only basis for thought here, but if you are justifying Ukrainian conscription of unwilling participants you have entered the world of pure utilitarian ethics.

sanderabeer said:
Whether or not this particularly war is about imperialism is going to be a tough sell given Putin's history.

Only if you're bought into the western narrative and can only think in terms of WW2. Putin didn't start this war by threatening Ukraine that he wanted their territory, he started it on the basis of Russian security concerns. He only asked before this war started that Ukraine not enter NATO. In Istanbul he was willing to agree to terms with the Ukrainians which would have preserved Ukraine as it was in 2022 if they would agree to neutrality. Instead Ukraine chose Boris Johnson and the West and has suffered as a result. This image of Putin being the next Hitler (btw every time the west fights a war its always a new Hitler) simply wrings false when we consider the Russian perspective.

sanderabeer · Mar 6, 2025

Ignatius the Kiwi said:
If someone is being dragged off against their will, is it not impressment? Do you consider it morally righteous to force people to fight in a war they don't want to participate in?

This is not an answer. Please answer the question. How do we know that what we're seeing in the videos is kidnapping and not something else?

Ignatius the Kiwi said:
I already made the argument. That it is immoral to force someone to fight in a conflict they don't want to participate in. Why can't you address it?

That is not an argument. It's a claim. And since you made the claim, it is your responsibility to support the claim. This is known as a burden of proof.

Ignatius the Kiwi said:
You support Ukraine as somehow being morally superior to Russia.

I never made this claim. This is something you've assumed about me.

Ignatius the Kiwi said:
I am attempting to show they are not and in fact seem to be more guilty of forced conscription than Russia because the latter has more volunteers.

Let's assume that we agree Ukraine is "more guilty" of conscription. What follows from that?

Does that mean that Ukraine should give up their territory to Russia?

Does that mean that Russia should be allowed to continue attacking?

I suspect you'd say no to both of these as would I. So what do you think follows from that?

Ignatius the Kiwi said:
Should we not then question the narrative that Ukraine wants to fight? Especially when the only ones saying this are westerners and Zelensky who wants the war to continue?

There is room to question this, but we must also challenge the question itself.

What does it mean when one says "Ukraine wants to fight?" Does that mean the whole populace? Does that mean a certain percentage? Does that mean the ones who relatively safe versus those who are dealing with war daily?

It seems like a simple question on the surface, but there is a lot of complexity underneath.

sanderabeer · Mar 6, 2025

Ignatius the Kiwi said:
Do you consider it wrong for Putin to conscript Russians? Why?

I don't have a strong opinion on conscription. My knee-jerk response is against it, but I understand that response is an emotional one and not a principled, reasoned, and grounded opinion. As such, it is best to describe me as being without an opinion.

If I did have an opinion, my opinion would be principled and consistent. This means if I consider conscription to be unethical then I would consider it unethical for both Ukraine and Russia, and vice versa.

Ignatius the Kiwi said:
Does practical necessity and utilitarian reasoning determine what is right or wrong in this case?

No.

Ignatius the Kiwi said:
Do you also think that the Russian speakers in the Donbass/Crimea don't want to be part of Russia?

I suspect some do, some don't.

Ignatius the Kiwi said:
Self determination isn't the only basis for thought here, but if you are justifying Ukrainian conscription of unwilling participants you have entered the world of pure utilitarian ethics.

I am not justifying Ukrainian conscription. I am challenging the idea that it's "kidnapping" and demanding evidence that it is such.

Ignatius the Kiwi said:
Only if you're bought into the western narrative and can only think in terms of WW2.

This is not an "only if" matter. This reasoning is simplistic and reductive. There is not a single, unified Western narrative on this.

Ignatius the Kiwi said:
Putin didn't start this war by threatening Ukraine that he wanted their territory, he started it on the basis of Russian security concerns. He only asked before this war started that Ukraine not enter NATO. In Istanbul he was willing to agree to terms with the Ukrainians which would have preserved Ukraine as it was in 2022 if they would agree to neutrality. Instead Ukraine chose Boris Johnson and the West and has suffered as a result.

I consider preemptive wars unethical. And I find these claims to be suspect. Suspect, but I am open to being shown evidence.

Ignatius the Kiwi said:
This image of Putin being the next Hitler (btw every time the west fights a war its always a new Hitler) simply wrings false when we consider the Russian perspective.

I am not sure what you're going on about here.

Trogdor the Burninator · Mar 6, 2025

Ignatius the Kiwi said:
Only if you're bought into the western narrative and can only think in terms of WW2. Putin didn't start this war by threatening Ukraine that he wanted their territory, he started it on the basis of Russian security concerns. He only asked before this war started that Ukraine not enter NATO. In Istanbul he was willing to agree to terms with the Ukrainians which would have preserved Ukraine as it was in 2022 if they would agree to neutrality. Instead Ukraine chose Boris Johnson and the West and has suffered as a result. This image of Putin being the next Hitler (btw every time the west fights a war its always a new Hitler) simply wrings false when we consider the Russian perspective.

This idea that Ukraine was going to join NATO has been brought up by pro-Putin advocates for three years, and it’s hard to believe that it’s anything but wilful ignorance and blatant propaganda now. As has been pointed out over and over, Ukraine could never join NATO as it did not have national border integrity due to Putins invasion of the Donbas.

Putin then tried to push Ukraine to give up a huge chunk of its territory and agree to “neutrality”, i.e. disarmament, leaving them wide open for Russia to simply invade at a later date. Yet people seriously expect them to choose Russia over the west at this point?

And if Putin doesn’t like being compared to Hitler, then he should stop behaving like Hitler. And if he’s upset about the supposed threat of NATO on his doorstep, then he only had himself to blame. His imperialist invasion has guaranteed that every country bordering Russia will join and remain part of NATO for decades to come. And why shouldn’t they? It’s become the easiest way to protect themselves against Russian aggression.

lifepsyop · Mar 8, 2025

Trogdor the Burninator said:
This idea that Ukraine was going to join NATO has been brought up by pro-Putin advocates for three years, and it’s hard to believe that it’s anything but wilful ignorance and blatant propaganda now. As has been pointed out over and over, Ukraine could never join NATO as it did not have national border integrity due to Putins invasion of the Donbas.

Putin then tried to push Ukraine to give up a huge chunk of its territory and agree to “neutrality”, i.e. disarmament, leaving them wide open for Russia to simply invade at a later date. Yet people seriously expect them to choose Russia over the west at this point?

And if Putin doesn’t like being compared to Hitler, then he should stop behaving like Hitler. And if he’s upset about the supposed threat of NATO on his doorstep, then he only had himself to blame. His imperialist invasion has guaranteed that every country bordering Russia will join and remain part of NATO for decades to come. And why shouldn’t they? It’s become the easiest way to protect themselves against Russian aggression.

This is funny, the way you are trying to paint Putin as a paranoid madman... when just a decade ago it was U.S. senators in Kiev, actively supporting a violent insurrection against the Ukrainian presidency that was deemed too friendly to Russia....

but yea, Putin's just imagining things, it's all in his head.

Akita Suggagaki · Mar 9, 2025

expos4ever said:
David Brooks of the NY Times on what happened today in the Oval Office:

Donald Trump believes in one thing: he believes that might makes right and in that he agrees with Vladimir Putin - they're birds of a feather and he and Putin together are trying to create a world that safer for gangsters where ruthless people can thrive and we saw the product of that effort today in the Oval Office. It's a moral injury to see the country I love behaving this way.

Well I think we know that conservative concepts of morality are no longer priorities. Rather somehow we are now all about disruption and personality. People will tolerate and defend anything from Trump.

Trump, Vance and Zelenskyy spar over Russian war in tense exchange at White House

Well-Known Member

Active Member

Well-Known Member

Active Member

Dissident

Dissident

Dissident

Active Member

Dissident

Senior Veteran

Dissident

Active Member

Dissident

Active Member

Dissident

Active Member

Active Member

Senior Veteran

Regular Member

Well-Known Member

Similar threads