Have an idea about the rooster crow' s origin, please ?

peter2 said:

Hello!
Please could someone enlight my understanding :

Most christians learned the rooster crowed after Peter's 3 denials, (1 or 2 times depends on the evangelist)

I'm trying to understand the significance of this crow :

Of course, the rooster is well known for its pride (especially in France, incarnating main gaulish people default ; NB i'm french)

I assume there was a silent struggle from Peter toward Jesus to win the "cap of savior", especially after Jesus had rebuked his pretention to behave accordingly, and pointed his revealing himself as a 3 times-denier (Jn 13,38).

Now, i was wondering whether an invisible influence could have made the rooster crow.
And moreover, indeed, if i'm right thinking such an influence intervened,
which could be its nature :
-Coincidence would be hard to believe (for a believer). Let's forget it
-God's or Jesus', in order to make Peter aware he is a mere creature ?
-One of the ennemy, in order to make Peter harvest his worldly and sinful thinking ?
-Both ? strange, but why not ?
-Anything else ?

What do you think it could be, please ? I'm truly ignorant and unable to make any response more likely than the other

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I don't believe that it was coincidence. Roosters, or as we call them in the UK, cockerels, tend to crow in the early morning. I see it as an indication of the time of day when Peter's denials happened.

peter2 said:

Thank you Mr Lamb.
So, i conclude of your assumption Peter's denials happened at dawn.
Seems to me yet it's not an ordinary forecast Jesus made about this cockerel's crow. It could have crowed 5 or 6, 7 times, etc...slightly before the denials, for instance. Thus it would have sound like an equally ordinary indication of time.
I think there's something more miraculous here

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Yes, so do I believe it was miraculous. The very fact that Jesus knew in advance exactly when and how many times Peter would deny Him is a miracle in itself.

Anyone who can say this;

Isaiah 46:10 KJV
Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure:

Obviously knows the end from the beginning, otherwise they wouldn’t be able to say that they are declaring it.

Einstein showed us that when you reach the speed of light your mass becomes infinite and that your mass is proportional to your energy and therefore your energy is infinite.

Although that is not a reality that man can comprehend, Jesus said that there was nothing God could not do and the only way he could say that is if God‘s power is infinite.

If his power is infinite, there is no time with him, as also Einstein revealed.

We are in a timed universe and God (if he is infinite, which we know him to be) lives outside of time and he has seen the end from the beginning. He has seen the whole play of every event that is ever going to occur from eternity past until eternity future.

He knows even where every quark or electron is going to be at any given moment in time for eternity.

He reveals his secrets to the prophets and Jesus was his son and he obviously therefore revealed secrets to him.

God’s work was done in setting up the whole show and he knew before the universe was created that he was going to make everything in such a way that the rooster would crow at that time.

Look at this statement by Amos, which confirms this.

Amos 3:6-7 KJV
Shall a trumpet be blown in the city, and the people not be afraid? shall there be evil in a city, and the LORD hath not done it? [7] Surely the Lord GOD will do nothing, but he revealeth his secret unto his servants the prophets.

“Surely the Lord God will do nothing.”

That obviously means he has already done everything he needed to do to ensure it would come to pass and that is why he is able to reveal his secrets.

He confirms that for us as well saying;

“shall there be evil in a city, and the LORD hath not done it?”

Obviously, his implied answer is yes the Lord has done it, but then he goes on to say surely he will do nothing, implying that he has already done everything he needs to do to ensure the event.

Let’s have a look at a foreshadowing prophecy in Genesis which reveals exactly what is going to happen thousands of years in the future.

God set up a play on Earth that revealed exactly what was going to come to pass and he used characters on earth as actors in the play.

The only way he could have done so and been so accurate about everything is if he knew exactly what was going to come to pass.

Knowing how the butterfly effect works if he didn’t know even exactly where every electron was going to be for eternity future he would not be able to prophesy anything with any degree of accuracy because the butterfly effect would render it more and more inaccurate as time went by.

Romans 8.28 can only be true if he knows everything.

Look at the following foreshadowing prophecy in Genesis which confirms all of this.

The key that opened this for me was Genesis 41.32 KJV where Joseph is speaking to pharaoh about his dreams and he says;

Genesis 41:32 KJV
And . . . doubled . . . twice; it is because the thing is established by God, and God will shortly bring it to pass.

I wondered what he meant by that statement and where he got his information from, so I did some research and what I found surprised me and confirms everything that I am saying.

In Genesis 22.2 the word love first appears in scripture at the beginning of a passage where Abraham (meaning father of many) took his only begotten son into the land of Moriah to offer him as a sacrifice upon a mountain.

Some 2200 years after Abraham was born, God (the Father of many) took His only begotten Son into the land of Moriah to offer Him as a sacrifice upon a mountain.

Golgotha, the place where Christ was crucified is a peak in the Mountain range of Moriah.

Isaac, (meaning laughter) is mysteriously omitted from the Genesis story (after the sacrifice event) for two chapters, and the next time he appears is when he receives his bride, Rebekah.

Christ (The bringer of eternal laughter to mankind) has been mysteriously omitted from the history of man for two millennia, (since after the sacrifice event) and the next time He will appear is when He receives His bride. (John 3.29. Matthew 25.10)

Abraham’s senior servant, Eliezer, (which means God comforts) who wields Abraham’s power over all of his possessions, is sent by Abraham to find a bride of unusual faith for Isaac.

God’s Holy Spirit (who Christ called "the comforter") who wields God’s power over all of creation was sent to earth by God to find a bride of unusual faith for Christ.

Abraham possesses the fire and the knife and Isaac bore the burden of the wood.

God possesses the Holy Spirit (revealed in the burning bush and tongues of fire) and the power of life and death, and Christ bore the burden of the cross.

Abraham had two sons; the son of the flesh, Ishmael, born first, and the son of the promise, Isaac, born afterwards by a miraculous conception.

God had two sons; the son of the flesh, Adam, born first, and the son of the promise, Jesus, born afterwards by a miraculous conception.

DOUBLED TWICE

Doubled twice being “God's signature”, it is obviously not just coincidence that the word love first occurs in Genesis 22.2 (incidence number 2 of 222 in scripture) where it uncovers the love of the Spirit, while Genesis 2.22, incidence number 1 of 222 uncovers the love of man, but notably the word love is not used to describe it.

Here are the two scriptures.

Genesis 2:22 KJV
And the rib, which the LORD God had taken from man, made he a woman, and brought her unto the man. (the first time Adam saw Eve.)

Genesis 22:2 KJV
And he said, Take now thy son, thine only son Isaac, whom thou lovest, and get thee into the land of Moriah; and offer him there for a burnt offering upon one of the mountains which I will tell thee of. (the foreshadowing of the crucifixion of Christ.)

1 Corinthians 15:45-47 KJV

And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit. [46] Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.

Knowing that Christ is number 2 in heaven (John 14.28) and that the numbers were only put into the Bible about 400 years ago only served to confirm Joseph’s revelation and that God knows EVERYTHING.

[10] Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure:

Isaiah 46:

peter2 said:

Hello!
Please could someone enlight my understanding :

Most christians learned the rooster crowed after Peter's 3 denials, (1 or 2 times depends on the evangelist)

I'm trying to understand the significance of this crow :

Of course, the rooster is well known for its pride (especially in France, incarnating main gaulish people default ; NB i'm french)

I assume there was a silent struggle from Peter toward Jesus to win the "cap of savior", especially after Jesus had rebuked his pretention to behave accordingly, and pointed his revealing himself as a 3 times-denier (Jn 13,38).

Now, i was wondering whether an invisible influence could have made the rooster crow.
And moreover, indeed, if i'm right thinking such an influence intervened,
which could be its nature :
-Coincidence would be hard to believe (for a believer). Let's forget it
-God's or Jesus', in order to make Peter aware he is a mere creature ?
-One of the ennemy, in order to make Peter harvest his worldly and sinful thinking ?
-Both ? strange, but why not ?
-Anything else ?

What do you think it could be, please ? I'm truly ignorant and unable to make any response more likely than the other

Click to expand...

It was Jesus' foreknowledge of what was going to occur, not His manipulation of the circumstances to create fulfilment. There were many other things He had full knowledge of, including things that occurred before He was born (e.g., Abraham saw His day), while He was living on earth but which occurred distant from His physical location (e.g., Lazarus died), and things which were to happen after his death, burial, and resurrection (e.g., the Spirit would not come unless He went away). He also knew things no ordinary person could know (e.g., what other people were thinking). So, it should be no surprise that He knew the sequence of events related to Peter's denial of Him.

peter2 said:

Hello Johann

Bewildering cross-checks indeed, this ans this of the following quotations


I thank you for these.

Yet, strangely, though i'm a believer of sciences discoveries, i fail to feel my path should take them into account for my spiritual elevation (or any)
My sensation is then that there are many things to better in ordinary life, before to do so.
Hope i don't offend you

But, would you agree to tell me, please, whether you get any response at my first questionning, in relation or not with the content of your technical post ?
I guess you 'll argue for God's intervention in the cockerel's crow, but not sure..
Thank you again

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No Peter you don’t offend me in the slightest. I would be rather concerned about you if you told me that your “spiritual elevation” had come by evidence because we receive Christ by faith not by evidence.

My “spiritual elevation” did not come by any evidence that I discovered in scripture either.

I was an unbeliever until I was 40 years old, raised by unbelieving parents in a secular country in Africa and I spent the first 20 years of my life after school in an unbelieving army and heard pretty much nothing about God until I was 40 years old.

The only reason I became a believer was because I met a guy who I believed was lost in a misguided belief that the bible was the word of God.

I had never read the Bible and knew nothing about it and his claim that the Bible was the word of God seemed too crazy for me to believe so I began to read it to try and find errors in it to prove him wrong so that I could save him from his delusion.

I began in the book of Matthew and only got to half way through chapter 5 of Matthew before I believed Christ was the son of God and that the Bible was the word of God, not because I found any evidence, but because I believed what I was reading and was saved before I finished chapter 5.

I only told you the evidence that I did seeking to persuade you that the rooster event was a complete non event in the sense that God knew everything that would happen that morning before Peter denied him because he knows everything.

It wasn’t some miraculous event or some miracle where God stepped in to cause the rooster to crow or whatever. God doesn’t have to do that. He knows everything. He knows when you are going to blink, he knows how you are going to respond to me and exactly what time you will do it and he knows exactly how many roosters in all the world are going to crow exactly how many times before you do so?

God knew the rooster was going to crow because he knows everything. How can he prophecy anything if he doesn’t know everything.

If he didn’t know absolutely every single thing about the future, he could never prophecy accurately because the butterfly effect would eventually make his prophecies completely inaccurate.

God knows exactly when every single rooster in the world is going to crow through all of its life.

I thought that was pretty obvious, so I was rather surprised by the question.

peter2 said:

Hello!
Please could someone enlight my understanding :

Most christians learned the rooster crowed after Peter's 3 denials, (1 or 2 times depends on the evangelist)

I'm trying to understand the significance of this crow :

Of course, the rooster is well known for its pride (especially in France, incarnating main gaulish people default ; NB i'm french)

I assume there was a silent struggle from Peter toward Jesus to win the "cap of savior", especially after Jesus had rebuked his pretention to behave accordingly, and pointed his revealing himself as a 3 times-denier (Jn 13,38).

Now, i was wondering whether an invisible influence could have made the rooster crow.
And moreover, indeed, if i'm right thinking such an influence intervened,
which could be its nature :
-Coincidence would be hard to believe (for a believer). Let's forget it
-God's or Jesus', in order to make Peter aware he is a mere creature ?
-One of the ennemy, in order to make Peter harvest his worldly and sinful thinking ?
-Both ? strange, but why not ?
-Anything else ?

What do you think it could be, please ? I'm truly ignorant and unable to make any response more likely than the other

Click to expand...

Having raised Chickens, many roosters crow predawn, or quickly after dawn. Some later, others anytime just to hear the sound of their own voice.
Peter who denied that he would deny Christ. did so quickly.
It is easy to talk tough when comfortably safe. when fear enters the equation it gives pause.

peter2 said:

Sorry i'm not persuaded. I'm a bit of a madman, looking for truths through whatever paradox i find in my readings.
i suspect indeed many deep truths to be hidden in scriptural paradoxes. So, for me, the crow of the rooster matters : The more obscure a paradox looks, the deeper the truth i expect to find..
It might be unessential for Salvation, but even this i'm not sure

I agree.
It is, thank you (what you wrote in the preceeding sentence). My previous answer to Mr Griffin explains more widely why i'm unascertained about origin of the rooster's crow

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It is a misunderstanding by many in the church that the enemy wants to humiliate us?

God gives grace to the humble. The enemy does not want to humble us. When the enemy did what he did to Job, it was not to humiliate Job. It was to try and get him to curse God in anger and rebellion.

What happened to Peter would not have inspired anger or rebellion in anyone. It would have inspired humiliation and shame and only by humiliation can a man become humble and God only gives grace to the humble.

Johan2222 said:

It is a misunderstanding by many in the church that the enemy wants to humiliate us?

God gives grace to the humble. The enemy does not want to humble us. When the enemy did what he did to Job, it was not to humiliate Job. It was to try and get him to curse God in anger and rebellion.

What happened to Peter would not have inspired anger or rebellion in anyone. It would have inspired humiliation and shame and only by humiliation can a man become humble and God only gives grace to the humble.

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The rooster is in Matt 26:75 !!

dan p

peter2 said:

Hello Mr Griffin.
Sorry for my late answering. I went on Saturday evening Mass.

Well, yes, it's one of my hypothesis.
Reminds me besides of the fish he made Peter catch in order to pay the tax with the coin in the fish's mouth. What mastery in these forecasts !

But yet, i still fail to make balance bend toward this hypothesis :
Woud you have some scripture(s) to base your saying, please ?

Actually, why couldn't we assume, for instance, it was the devil, that made the rooster proudly crow, as a sign of his humiliating Peter into abandoning Jesus to his misfortune.
Indeed, yes, Jesus foreknew about Peter's denials, but he (Jesus) is not the one that made Peter yield before threats. I mean the threats obviously didn't originate in Jesus, but why not, then, in the ennemy ?

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Maybe I answered the wrong question.

peter2 said:

I'm not sure, may be it would. In my view it all depends on the type of faith your creed is made. Just consider the malefactor that railed on Jesus

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The malefactor had NO faith or humility. By his statements he had obviously heard of the claims of Christ and he did not believe them and he was challenging God and basically calling him a liar and condemning him in wicked judgement, even though he himself was a criminal.

That you can use him as an example to even consider a comparison with faith should be a concern to you.

peter2 said:

Neither sure here, sorry. In my view again, humility may also stem from a sane relationship with truth, without involving humiliation.

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You cannot have a sane relationship with truth without suffering and humiliation. Hebrews 12.6. Hebrews 5.8. 2 Timothy 2.12. Luke 16.25. Romans 5.3 John 12.25. Hebrews 12.8 Isaiah 29.13.

That you can claim such a thing should also be concerning to you.

You answer? “I don’t know” or “I’m not sure”, to a lot of very simple scriptural concepts that are obvious and put forth theories that show no harmony with scripture.

My guess is that you were raised with many slaves and you now own many of your own and I bet your costs for housing and feeding them are far less than the slaves of Kings of old and I would imagine they work far more efficiently and do a far better job than any slaves of former days and you probably don’t even have to pay for supervisors to oversee them because they always do perfect work even though you paid nothing to train them.

I bet you, I even know some of their names; Car, microwave, cell phone, central heating, washing machine, air-conditioning, fan, dishwasher, hairdryer, oven, stove, vacuum cleaner, running water, refrigerator and probably even electricity.

When you grew up as a young boy, did you dream of such things when you walked to the river 2 miles away with two empty paint buckets to get water for your family?

Do you think David thought of such things when he was growing up in the wilderness looking after his father‘s sheep from early in the morning till late at night caring for sick animals and walking vast distances in the cold and the rain and with nowhere to lay his head and being attacked by wild animals constantly?

Do you think he had a welcoming home to go back to with a father who did not even consider him when the prophet Samuel came to the door? Do you think a father who sends his young child out to look after his animals in a place where he knows wild animals are abundant cares about his child?

Do you think Samuel who was given to a wicked priest as a young child who served that priest as a slave all of his life dreamed of ease of life and the deceitfulness of riches?

Do you think Daniel who was raised in severity so much so that he opted not to have the kings food when he arrived in a place where he would effectively be a slave for much of his adult life, hated by everyone around him thought of those things?

Do you suppose Noah thought of those things for the hundred years that he spent building the ark in the wilderness getting wood from far and wide using manual labour only, being mocked by everyone around him, having his family bullied and scorned and scoffed at by everyone around him?

Do you not know why the love of many was prophesied to grow cold?

Do you know why Jesus said?

Luke 18:8 KJV
. . . Nevertheless when the Son of man cometh, shall he find faith on the earth?

Do you not think that his implication in asking such a question was “no almost none at all?”

Mark 4:19 KJV
And the cares of this world, and the deceitfulness of riches, and the lusts of other things entering in, choke the word, and it becometh unfruitful.

Matthew 7:14 NKJV
Because narrow is the gate and difficult is the way which leads to life, and there are few who find it.

The obvious is written right in front of our faces, but the love of many has grown cold and because bad company is all around us corrupting good manners, we look in the mirror and walk away and forget what manner of men we were.

You imply that you have a sane relationship with truth but if you are not able to lay even basic precept upon precept, how will you understand deep knowledge or know the things that are shortly to come to pass?

2 Timothy 2:3 KJV
Thou therefore endure hardness, as a good soldier of Jesus Christ.

peter2 said:

To a general extent, though, your reasonning is correct for the boasting has something to do with truth-distance keeping

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I have shown you many obvious things in the word which no man showed me, and to which you were blind, even by your own indirect admission, and I know that if I were to show you the deep things that are not obvious, many of them would be too much for you to bear and yet you are wise enough to boast that you know that I am correct only “to a general extent”.

When you say;

“That is, to non or little boasting people”,

Do you understand that it is the worst of the self righteous hypocrites who consider themselves the most humble of all? Luke 18.11

Is your road hard, leading to life?

Do you hate your life?

Hebrews 12:6 NKJV
For whom the LORD loves He chastens, And scourges every son whom He receives."

Every son.

peter2 said:

Yet, i believe Jesus was already the Truth before ever he suffered from men

I happen to find these not so obvious



I happen to find some harmony and coherence in these. Sorry for you you don't
i 'm besides grateful of your compassion and interest for the sake of my soul, but it's not the subject of this thread

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No worries, sorry for going off topic

peter2 said:

Yet, i believe Jesus was already the Truth before ever he suffered from men

I happen to find these not so obvious



I happen to find some harmony and coherence in these. Sorry for you you don't
i 'm besides grateful of your compassion and interest for the sake of my soul, but it's not the subject of this thread

Click to expand...

Sorry also for being insensitive and rough in my manner. I was raised in a very austere environment and left school at sixteen to join a highly disciplined army fighting a brutal war in Africa and when I left the army after 20 years of service, I did not have a lot of social skills.

Hopefully I will get better at it one of these days but I am an old dog trying to learn a lot of new tricks so please forgive me for my many failings.