Eternal punishment vs eternal life

JulieB67 · Feb 27, 2025

Jeff Saunders said:
Satan is just playing his role

Yes, and many will fall for it. That's the point. He will be disguised as an angel of light and will play that role of Messiah. That's what the gospel armor is for to that generation that's going to be tested.. To be able to stand in "the evil day", having done all, to stand. Hasn't happened yet. But many followed him before and they will do so two more times. God is very thorough.

Jeff Saunders said:
to get to 1Cor 15:28

This verse takes place after the great white throne and the Lake of Fire. At that point death and hell are destroyed in the Lake of Fire. After that all things are new (Christ's words) and God will be in all. It doesn't stop the fact that all those not in the book of life were thrown in and destroyed. The memory of those things will not even come to mind.

I Corinthians 15:28 "And when all things shall be subdued unto Him, then shall the Son also Himself be subject unto Him That put all things under Him, that God may be all in all."

Everything at that point, including death and hell, anything that offends will be gone.

Jeff Saunders said:
God wants us to love him out of free will, the highest form of love

Yes, and throwing someone into the Lake of Fire is not loving him out of free will. That is the very opposite of free will.

You keep bringing up every know will bow and confess he is Lord. But at his return of course they will. He will return as Lord of Lord and King of Kings. They will know who he is at that point. And then faith and grace are thrown out at that point. The spiritual dead will have to wait a 1000 years and then they will see. Those that take part in the first resurrection do not have to worry about the Second Death. It will have no power over them. For the rest it will. Christ again warns people to repent or their name will be blotted out of the book of "life" or are in danger of the Second Death.

What's your view on the book of life?

And in the end, if life doesn't mean life and death doesn't mean that than anyone could believe anything about the Word and it throws those reading it into confusion. I think Christ teachings are so simple on this subject.

Revelation 20:7 "And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison

Revelation 20:8 "And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea."

That's at the very end of the 1000 years. Well after every knee bowing down. That's how deceptive Satan is. Look how many people still follow him in in the end. That is why they will be thrown into the Lake of Fire at that point right along with him.

God is looking for people that honestly love him. He doesn't want to force it. But again, you are making light of what Satan does and will do and we see that the number that he's able to deceive (after 1000 years of Christ reigning) even in the end. Yes, it's a role but sadly people still will follow him. Just as they did the previous times.

Jeff Saunders · Feb 27, 2025

JulieB67 said:
Yes, and many will fall for it. That's the point. He will be disguised as an angel of light and will play that role of Messiah. That's what the gospel armor is for to that generation that's going to be tested.. To be able to stand in "the evil day", having done all, to stand. Hasn't happened yet. But many followed him before and they will do so two more times. God is very thorough.

This verse takes place after the great white throne and the Lake of Fire. At that point death and hell are destroyed in the Lake of Fire. After that all things are new (Christ's words) and God will be in all. It doesn't stop the fact that all those not in the book of life were thrown in and destroyed. The memory of those things will not even come to mind.

I Corinthians 15:28 "And when all things shall be subdued unto Him, then shall the Son also Himself be subject unto Him That put all things under Him, that God may be all in all."

Everything at that point, including death and hell, anything that offends will be gone.

Yes, and throwing someone into the Lake of Fire is not loving him out of free will. That is the very opposite of free will.

You keep bringing up every know will bow and confess he is Lord. But at his return of course they will. He will return as Lord of Lord and King of Kings. They will know who he is at that point. And then faith and grace are thrown out at that point. The spiritual dead will have to wait a 1000 years and then they will see. Those that take part in the first resurrection do not have to worry about the Second Death. It will have no power over them. For the rest it will. Christ again warns people to repent or their name will be blotted out of the book of "life" or are in danger of the Second Death.

What's your view on the book of life?

And in the end, if life doesn't mean life and death doesn't mean that than anyone could believe anything about the Word and it throws those reading it into confusion. I think Christ teachings are so simple on this subject.

Revelation 20:7 "And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison

Revelation 20:8 "And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea."

That's at the very end of the 1000 years. Well after every knee bowing down. That's how deceptive Satan is. Look how many people still follow him in in the end. That is why they will be thrown into the Lake of Fire at that point right along with him.

God is looking for people that honestly love him. He doesn't want to force it. But again, you are making light of what Satan does and will do and we see that the number that he's able to deceive (after 1000 years of Christ reigning) even in the end. Yes, it's a role but sadly people still will follow him.

I definitely read scripture with a different lens. Can you explain who you think those people are that in 1Cor 15:22-24 “ For just as in Adam all die, so also in the Anointed all will be given life. And each in the proper order: the Anointed as the first fruits, thereafter those who are in the Anointed at his arrival, Then the FULL COMPLETION , when he delivers the Kingdom to him who is God and Father, when he renders every Principality and every Authority and Power ineffectual.” I see Jesus and then the Christians but who do you think the “FULL COMPLETION “ is? If all those who don’t follow Jesus end up annihilated who is left to be the FULL COMPLETION ? I believe that this is referring to those who have been purified in the Lake of Fire. If that is correct then now all those scriptures that say God is the savior of the world are true , then as in Adam all die as in Jesus all will live is true, then Gods will that all will be saved is true, then every knee will bow and every tongue will confess that Jesus is Lord, then in 1Tim 4:9-11 because we trust in the living God, who is the savior of all men, especially of those who believe. Yup that’s true. Jesus really is the savior of the world he did not fail. This is how I read scripture, God is the loving Father who will stop at nothing till all his creation is saved and he becomes all in all . To me this is the only lens that takes away so many questions I had and now I know that God is Love, Life, and Light and in him is no darkness.

JulieB67 · Feb 27, 2025

Jeff Saunders said:
. Can you explain who you think those people are that in 1Cor 15:22-24 “

Corinthians 15:22 "For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive."

This word "alive" is the only time this Greek word is used in this form. It just means to vitalize, give life. Which simply means when someone dies in the flesh they are quickened at that point in the spirit. It doesn't mean all have eternal life at that point. It just means they are going as Christ explains in Luke to one side of the gulf -good or bad. Not everyone believes in a gulf but we have Christ going the souls on the certain side when he died physically as it's written. But again Judgement Day, the Lake of Fire, the Second Death, book of Life have not come to play yet.

I Corinthians 15:23 "But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at His coming."

These are those that Christ talks about in this verse-

Revelation 20:6 "Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years

We see here that only those that take part in the first resurrection are in no danger of the second death. They rest are still in danger of that.

And he will reign until all of his enemies are under his foot. And only then will he hand over the kingdom to our Father.

I Corinthians 15:24 "Then cometh the end, when He shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when He shall have put down all rule and all authority and power."

Corinthians 15:25 "For He must reign, till He hath put all enemies under His feet."

Malachi 4:3 "And ye shall tread down the wicked; for they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet in the day that I shall do this, saith the Lord of hosts."

I posted the verses that that show the huge number of those that will still follow Satan and this is after Christ has reigned. That's the sad part.

Jeff Saunders said:
when he delivers the Kingdom

He will deliver the Kingdom, those freely love the Father/Christ and not Satan.

Jeff Saunders said:
If all those who don’t follow Jesus

Many will choose to follow him at the end of his reign. But I posted the number that follow Satan in the end. Huge.

Jeff Saunders said:
who have been purified in the Lake of Fire

But that's not biblical. Again, every verse you have posted about refining is about our Father refining someone in their lifetimes. I believe Christ when he calls it the Second Death. He does not call it a refinery. He states it was prepared for Satan and his angels and in Revelation he calls it the Second Death. Revelation means exactly that -to reveal. There's nothing in Revelation about anyone coming out of the Lake of Fire. I believe Malachi when it states the wicked will be turned to ashes and so on. If people continue to not love our Father and will still follow Satan's way he will simply grant them that. He will not force anyone to love him. He will simply blot them out of existence. It is even possible to be in the book of life and then blotted out. That's written as well. I have to go with the written word. Your beliefs sound nice God's Word will not change on the subject of the Book of Life, the Lake of Fire, the Second Death. Christ makes it very clear in his teachings.

And you're beliefs don't make sense in that God is so long suffering because he doesn't want anyone to perish but come to repentance. That honest change of heart and mind. If all he had to do was throw someone into the Lake of Fire than there would be no need for him to be so long suffering. In fact he could do that right now. But now, he wants to see who's going to make that change, who's going to love them of their own free will and that's ultimately the Kingdom who he will end up with.

Jeff Saunders said:
This is how I read scripture,

But all of scripture? You never answered by question about the book of life. Can someone be blotted out or is that something you don't believe? When I read scripture I take an account of everything, so I don't lose context. Because if we read it any other way we can pull out any verse to prove anything. We have to take it as a whole.

If that is correct then now all those scriptures that say God is the savior of the world are true

He is the Savior to the World, there is no other way, including the Lake of Fire. Again, he did not fail. People fail and sadly will continue to do so, but the salvation is there for the taking.

Jeff Saunders · Feb 27, 2025

JulieB67 said:
Corinthians 15:22 "For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive."

This word "alive" is the only time this Greek word is used in this form. It just means to vitalize, give life. Which simply means when someone dies in the flesh they are quickened at that point in the spirit. It doesn't mean all have eternal life at that point. It just means they are going as Christ explains in Luke to one side of the gulf -good or bad. Not everyone believes in a gulf but we have Christ going the souls on the certain side when he died physically as it's written. But again Judgement Day, the Lake of Fire, the Second Death, book of Life have not come to play yet.

I Corinthians 15:23 "But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at His coming."

These are those that Christ talks about in this verse-

Revelation 20:6 "Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years

We see here that only those that take part in the first resurrection are in no danger of the second death. They rest are still in danger of that.

And he will reign until all of his enemies are under his foot. And only then will he hand over the kingdom to our Father.

I Corinthians 15:24 "Then cometh the end, when He shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when He shall have put down all rule and all authority and power."

Corinthians 15:25 "For He must reign, till He hath put all enemies under His feet."

Malachi 4:3 "And ye shall tread down the wicked; for they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet in the day that I shall do this, saith the Lord of hosts."

I posted the verses that that show the huge number of those that will still follow Satan and this is after Christ has reigned. That's the sad part.

He will deliver the Kingdom, those freely love the Father/Christ and not Satan.

Many will choose to follow him at the end of his reign. But I posted the number that follow Satan in the end. Huge.

But that's not biblical. Again, every verse you have posted about refining is about our Father refining someone in their lifetimes. I believe Christ when he calls it the Second Death. He does not call it a refinery. He states it was prepared for Satan and his angels and in Revelation he calls it the Second Death. Revelation means exactly that -to reveal. There's nothing in Revelation about anyone coming out of the Lake of Fire. I believe Malachi when it states the wicked will be turned to ashes and so on. If people continue to not love our Father and will still follow Satan's way he will simply grant them that. He will not force anyone to love him. He will simply blot them out of existence. It is even possible to be in the book of life and then blotted out. That's written as well. I have to go with the written word. Your beliefs sound nice God's Word will not change on the subject of the Book of Life, the Lake of Fire, the Second Death. Christ makes it very clear in his teachings.

And you're beliefs don't make sense in that God is so long suffering because he doesn't want anyone to perish but come to repentance. That honest change of heart and mind. If all he had to do was throw someone into the Lake of Fire than there would be no need for him to be so long suffering. In fact he could do that right now. But now, he wants to see who's going to make that change, who's going to love them of their own free will and that's ultimately the Kingdom who he will end up with.

But all of scripture? You never answered by question about the book of life. Can someone be blotted out or is that something you don't believe? When I read scripture I take an account of everything, so I don't lose context. Because if we read it any other way we can pull out any verse to prove anything. We have to take it as a whole.

He is the Savior to the World, there is no other way, including the Lake of Fire. Again, he did not fail. People fail and sadly will continue to do so, but the salvation is there for the taking.

1Cor 15:22 I see that as when scripture says that those who follow Christ go from death to life, those who did not follow Jesus while in the mortal body have not done that yet but they will once the bend the knee and confess with their tongues. As for vs 24 the question I asked you about the “ full completion “ I see why you couldn’t answer that. I use a New Testament that is translated more literally than most English versions and the translator is Eastern Orthodox and believes in Apokatastasis as Gods telos , so when he translated telos he used the definition of Gods purpose of completion, fulfillment, goal , as his way of translating telos . Most English Bibles translated telos as “ end” so it reads “then the end comes “ which is different from “full completion “ so it is read as this Jesus first, then those who followed Jesus, then the full completion of humanity when he delivers the kingdom to God. Like I said this is a different lens , more like they would understand for the first couple years of the church, comes from saints like Gregory of Nyssa. As for the rest , like I said you follow a different tradition than I do.

Der Alte · Feb 27, 2025

Free2bHeretical4Him! said:
Thanks for chiming in brother … honestly, I’m not completely sure if I agree/disagree with his rendering. Thus my reason for posting Adam‘s excerpt to gain some insight in to the interpretive insights from others. For example. Brother ”hendrick” pointed out the use of the word might:

“Ugh. "Might" is subjunctive. I did X so that Y might happen means that if X, Y will happen. Assuming the condition is true, "might" does mean "will." As I am reading Adam’s rendering of this passage it seems to be likely he is in agreement with the use of “might” as established by brother “hendrick.” I recall Jeff also explaining to you how might con be used to = will. Do you have any follow-up thoughts? I have checked many other translations and it seems the rendering of this passage is quite varied. Interesting indeed …

blessings

But for the fact there ain't no indecision on God's part. If God's intention was that all shall be saved that is what He would have said.
But let me point out vs. 18 again.

John 3:17-18

(17) For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

(18) He that believeth [V-PAP-NSM] on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed [V-PAP-NSM] in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

In vs. 18 "not believing" has the same force as "believing" vs. 16. both are V-PAP-NSM= verb-present active participle-nominative subject masculine. If God meant "all [mankind will be] believing in him ~~should~~ will not perish, but have everlasting life." He would not have said immediately after "he believing not is condemned already, because he hath not believed."

Der Alte · Feb 27, 2025

Jeff Saunders said:
I definitely read scripture with a different lens. Can you explain who you think those people are that in 1Cor 15:22-24 “ For just as in Adam all die, so also in the Anointed all will be given life. And each in the proper order: the Anointed as the first fruits, thereafter those who are in the Anointed at his arrival, Then the FULL COMPLETION , when he delivers the Kingdom to him who is God and Father, when he renders every Principality and every Authority and Power ineffectual.” I see Jesus and then the Christians but who do you think the “FULL COMPLETION “ is? If all those who don’t follow Jesus end up annihilated who is left to be the FULL COMPLETION ? I believe ...

All mankind are "in Adam" since Adam is the progenitor of all mankind BUT all mankind are NOT "in Christ" That requires an informed decision in this life. Here is 1 Cor 15:22-25 the words "full completion" which you inserted three times do not occur in this passage.

1 Corinthians 15:22-25

(22) For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

(23) But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

(24) Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.

(25) For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.

"in Christ shall all be made alive. But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming. Then cometh the end.
Only those in Christ are made alive. No mention of those "NOT in Christ."

Revelation 21:4

(4) And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.

Last book, last chapter no more death.

But,

Revelation 22:11

(11) He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still.

Revelation 22:15

(15) For without [outside new Jerusalem] are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.

6 more vss the end.

JulieB67 · Feb 27, 2025

Jeff Saunders said:
I use a New Testament that is translated more literally

I use the KJV which is good with taking every word back to what's in the Hebrew/Greek manuscripts. Telos is described the end or completion of a process and that's just what the verse states. Because many words are lost in translation because many words as utilized by the English language in certain verses (the words air and taken are good examples) can be different words when translated back to the Greek.

Jeff Saunders said:
and the translator is Eastern Orthodox and believes in Apokatastasis as Gods telos

Once again, you are letting a man decide for you instead of the Word. It's very easy to translate the word end back to the telos definition in the Greek manuscripts

Telos-From a primary tello (to set out for a definite point or goal); properly, the point aimed at as a limit, i.e. (by implication) the conclusion of an act or state (termination (literally, figuratively or indefinitely), result (immediate, ultimate or prophetic), purpose); specially, an impost or levy (as paid) -- + continual, custom, end(-ing), finally, uttermost.

The very same word telos in this verse (vs 24) is also the same exact telos in Phil 3:19 ((5056)

Philippians 3:18 "(For many walk, of whom I have told you often, and now tell you even weeping, that they are the enemies of the cross of Christ:"

Philippians 3:19 "Whose end is destruction, whose god is their belly, and whose glory is in their shame, who mind earthly things.)"

When taken back to the Greek, very same word and description -

Telos-

From a primary tello (to set out for a definite point or goal); properly, the point aimed at as a limit, i.e. (by implication) the conclusion of an act or state (termination (literally, figuratively or indefinitely), result (immediate, ultimate or prophetic), purpose); specially, an impost or levy (as paid) -- + continual, custom, end(-ing), finally, uttermost.

So we see that the word telos has nothing to do with Universalism.

I Corinthians 15:24 "Then cometh the end, when He shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when He shall have put down all rule and all authority and power."

We have to continue on-

I Corinthians 15:25 "For He must reign, till He hath put all enemies under His feet.- Only then will the end come

I Corinthians 15:26 "The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death."

That happens at Judgement Day, not before.

And as I've posted, after the 1000 years, his reign, Satan is still loosed and many many will follow him, right to their destruction as it's written. Anyone found not written in the book of "life" will perish.

Jeff Saunders said:
I see why you couldn’t answer that

I feel like I did. But on the other hand you can't seem to or don't want to answer questions about the book of life, people being blotted out, etc? There's a reason for the book of life. What's the purpose of having one if all will eventually will have life as you believe. And why is it possible for someone to be blotted out if ultimately they won't be?

Der Alte · Feb 27, 2025

Jeff Saunders said:
Even using the definition that is approved by you , I don’t see a forced confession. Is not this how all people get “saved” ? 1 to indicate an acceptance to an offer. This is what we all do, the Holy Spirit convicted our hearts and we accept the offer of “salvation “ 2 to make an admission of wrong doing/ sin to confess. Again is this not what all must do to be “saved “ 3 to declare openly in acknowledgement, to confess. Is that not the to confess with the tongue as we all must do? 4 confess, profess, praise, in acknowledgement of divine beneficence and majesty. Again this is what scripture says we should do to be “saved “ I do not see how you can say it’s a forceful statement under duress, no place in the definition does it give even a hint of forceful confession. Do you have some secret knowledge that only in the mortal body this definition applies but once your mortal body is dead , even though the definition is the same , the outcome is different because they didn’t do it in the mortal body. Sounds like the Parable of the guy with the vineyard and he hired people to work and those who bore the heat of the day got the same pay as those who only worked an hour . They complained ( just like today for those who are caught up in religion who say why should they get the same pay as us look at what we gave up and did , it’s not fair) and the owner said - do I not have the right to do with mine what I want? To me this is exactly what I see being done, it’s not fair they should not get to be saved, they got to do all the things I wanted to but gave up . Also just because something has many years of tradition behind it doesn’t make it correct, don’t you think the Pharisees in Jesus’s day didn’t have hundreds of years of tradition and they still missed God when he showed up.

Revelation 21:4

(4) And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.

Revelation 21:8

(8) But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

Revelation 21:10

(10) And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and shewed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God,

Revelation 21:27

(27) And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth, neither whatsoever worketh abomination, or maketh a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb's book of life.

(11) He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still.

Revelation 22:15

(15) For without [outside the new Jerusalem vs. 21:10]] are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.

Free2bHeretical4Him! · Feb 27, 2025

Der Alte said:
All mankind are "in Adam" since Adam is the progenitor of all mankind BUT all mankind are NOT "in Christ" That requires an informed decision in this life. Here is 1 Cor 15:22-25 the words "full completion" which you inserted three times do not occur in this passage.

1 Corinthians 15:22-25
(22) For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

I highlighted your propensity to impose your theology in to the text (eisegesis).

Note In verse 22 the following:
For as = Even so. They are connectors.
In Adam = In Christ. They are the connected.
All = All
If you contend that the “progenitor”, Adam brought just physical death to ALL … then The Christ just brought physical life to ALL
If you concede that the “progenitor”, Adam brought both physical AND spiritual death to ALL … then The Christ brought physical AND spiritual life to ALL.

That is what the text states my brother …

Der Alte said:
(23) But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
(24) Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.
(25) For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.
"in Christ shall all be made alive. But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming. Then cometh the end.
Only those in Christ are made alive. No mention of those "NOT in Christ."

That is because according to the txt there are NONE who are NOT in Christ.

Der Alte said:
Revelation 21:4
(4) And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.
Last book, last chapter no more death.
But,

Revelation 22:11
(11) He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still.
Revelation 22:15
(15) For without [outside new Jerusalem] are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.
6 more vss the end.

You should really read what you are stating in the above two passages … what a mess you make of those Scriptures; especially in light of the beautiful, victorious consummation of all things Paul tells us will happen. You know, where the text that you failed to quote states after Jesus subdues all things and then … oh heck, just read it for yourself:

”For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive. But each in turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him. Then the end will come, when he hands over the kingdom to God the Father after he has destroyed all dominion, authority and power. For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet. The last enemy to be destroyed is death. For he “has put everything under his feet.” Now when it says that “everything” has been put under him, it is clear that this does not include God himself, who put everything under Christ. When he has done this, then the Son himself will be made subject to him who put everything under him, so that God may be all in all.“
‭‭1 Corinthians‬ ‭15‬:‭22‬-‭28‬ ‭NIV‬‬

1 Corinthians 15:24-28 Then the end will come, when he hands over the kingdom to God the Father after he has destroyed all dominion, authority and power. For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet. Th | New International Versio

Then the end will come, when he hands over the kingdom to God the Father after he has destroyed all dominion, authority and power. For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet. Th

bible.com

blessings

Jeff Saunders · Feb 27, 2025

Der Alte said:
Revelation 21:4
(4) And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.
Revelation 21:8
(8) But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.
Revelation 21:10
(10) And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and shewed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God,
Revelation 21:27
(27) And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth, neither whatsoever worketh abomination, or maketh a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb's book of life.
(11) He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still.
Revelation 22:15
(15) For without [outside the new Jerusalem vs. 21:10]] are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.

Again you are diverting from my post , show me why you think this is a forced confession using the definition that you supplied. Just quoting a bunch of scriptures doesn’t answer my question.

Der Alte · Feb 27, 2025

Free2bHeretical4Him! said:
***
That is because according to the txt there are NONE who are NOT in Christ. ***

Please show me where the text, ALL the text, says that? Not just a few selected verses.

Der Alte · Feb 27, 2025

Jeff Saunders said:
Again you are diverting from my post , show me why you think this is a forced confession using the definition that you supplied. Just quoting a bunch of scriptures doesn’t answer my question.

Matthew 7:21-23.

Jeff Saunders · Feb 27, 2025

Der Alte said:
Matthew 7:21-23.

That’s not answering the question. How does your definition imply or state a forced confession?

Der Alte · Feb 27, 2025

Jeff Saunders said:
That’s not answering the question. How does your definition imply or state a forced confession?

Matthew 7:21-23

(21) Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

(22) Many [NOT a few] will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?

(23) And then will I [Jesus] profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

When Jesus tells many quasi-Christians "Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven. I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity." They will certainly be confessing, Lord, Lord and it won't be gladly.

Free2bHeretical4Him! · Feb 28, 2025

Der Alte said:
Please show me where the text, ALL the text, says that? Not just a few selected verses.

I will be happy to do so brother. Just clarify for me if by “ALL the text” you mean in this chapter or other passages of Scripture?

This is where we have that give and receive exchange I believe is inherent in a fruitful discussion.

So. You next. Please explain what Paul is intended to mean when under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit says God will be ALL IN ALL?
Then, and only then will I comply with your request.

Blessings

hedrick · Feb 28, 2025

Free2bHeretical4Him! said:
I will be happy to do so brother. Just clarify for me if by “ALL the text” you mean in this chapter or other passages of Scripture?

This is where we have that give and receive exchange I believe is inherent in a fruitful discussion.

So. You next. Please explain what Paul is intended to mean when under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit says God will be ALL IN ALL?
Then, and only then will I comply with your request.

Blessings

What Der Alter is doing is legitimate from within the conservative Protestant tradition. In that tradition, any passage can be used to interpret any other, and the most explicit usually controls. I think de facto there's an unacknowedged tendency for the one that agrees with tradition to be seen as the most explicit, since Paul would seem to be pretty clear as well. You may be coming from such different traditions that real discussion isn't possible.

Personally, I think Paul and Matthew simply disagree.

Jeff Saunders · Feb 28, 2025

Der Alte said:
Matthew 7:21-23
(21) Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
(22) Many [NOT a few] will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
(23) And then will I [Jesus] profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
When Jesus tells many quasi-Christians "Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven. I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity." They will certainly be confessing, Lord, Lord and it won't be gladly.

Either definitions of words mean things or they don’t. Are you trying to say that the definition that you gave is irrelevant because you post other scripture and refuse to say what part of the definition of the word Exomologeo that you believe show that the confusion is a forced one . It’s ok to admit that you don’t know or don’t care about anything that doesn’t fit your preconceived ideas. I don’t understand why you want everyone else to explain with references that you approve, but you are not willing to do the same. I see a double standard here. So again will you please explain what part of the definition of Exomologeo shows that it’s a forced confession.

Free2bHeretical4Him! · Feb 28, 2025

hedrick said:
What Der Alter is doing is legitimate from within the conservative Protestant tradition. In that tradition, any passage can be used to interpret any other, and the most explicit usually controls. I think de facto there's an unacknowedged tendency for the one that agrees with tradition to be seen as the most explicit, since Paul would seem to be pretty clear as well. You may be coming from such different traditions that real discussion isn't possible.

Personally, I think Paul and Matthew simply disagree.

Thanks for chiming in. I came out of that tradition myself. Very interesting thought underlined. Can you elaborate a bit.

Blessings

Jeff Saunders · Feb 28, 2025

Free2bHeretical4Him! said:
Thanks for chiming in. I came out of that tradition myself. Very interesting thought underlined. Can you elaborate a bit.

Blessings

It may be that Paul and Matthew disagree, but I wonder if it’s because of progressive revelation that makes it look like they disagree. Here’s what I mean. Matthew learned and lived with Jesus for approximately three years, during that time Jesus ,even though he was fully God and fully man , was living as man but he had set his glory aside. That’s why he had to learn and grow in wisdom and stature, at that time he didn’t know when his return would be . But when Paul had his encounter with God when he was taught directly from the Glorified Jesus, he said no man taught him but Jesus directly, Jesus gave him more revelation expanding what his plan is . And that’s why to us it is possible to think that they were at odds with each other.

Der Alte · Feb 28, 2025

Jeff Saunders said:
Either definitions of words mean things or they don’t. Are you trying to say that the definition that you gave is irrelevant because you post other scripture and refuse to say what part of the definition of the word Exomologeo that you believe show that the confusion is a forced one . It’s ok to admit that you don’t know or don’t care about anything that doesn’t fit your preconceived ideas. I don’t understand why you want everyone else to explain with references that you approve, but you are not willing to do the same. I see a double standard here. So again will you please explain what part of the definition of Exomologeo shows that it’s a forced confession.

I think I see the fly in the ointment. As for the word exomologeo I did NOT give my opinion I quoted from one of, if not, the most highly accredited Greek lexicons Bauer, Danker, Arndt, Gingrich, BDAG. Which represents approx 120-160 years of combined scholarship. Had one actually read the article one could see approx 40-50 ancient sources the authors consulted in determining, not guessing or opining, the definition of exomologeo. FYI that is how a credible lexicon comes about.
About "references" I have not seen any credible "references" similar to what I posted, only quotes from various "scholars" who say e.g. "aionios never means eternal." A quote from a scholar might be credible if the scholar includes his scholarship, similar to BDAG, which led him to that conclusion vs. an unsupported opinion.
While nothing in the BDAG definition of exomologeo posted says anything about a 'confession" being forced it most certainly does NOT say "gladly." I think I can safely say that a person facing punishment will say almost anything to avoid that punishment. A "confession" under such circumstances will not be sincere. See e.g. Matthew 7:21-23.

Eternal punishment vs eternal life

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This is me about 1 yr. old. when FDR was president

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This is me about 1 yr. old. when FDR was president

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