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Satanic Idol in Iowa State Capital Beheaded by Christian Veteran

Hazelelponi

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Is it appropriate for Christians to persecute pagans? Does not the Holy Apostle say, "Insofar as it is up to you, live peaceably with all"?

-CryptoLutheran

Yeah this is what I'm thinking. The man was in the wrong (did he have a sword or something to decapitate said statue?) to just destroy it.

I do wonder about what Christians should do though... I know I would be opposed to walking into any capital building that was busy honoring Satan.

But as seen now, that may not be an option as there may be times we'd have no choice.

What are we supposed to do as Christians?

We are entering a time where Christians are a minority here, so how do we live like Christians when surrounded by idols and things detestable to God..?

Vandalism isn't the answer, but what is?

Should we just tell the state we can't walk into their building seeing as they turned it into a satanic temple?
 
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Divide

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I do wonder about what Christians should do though... I know I would be opposed to walking into any capital building that was busy honoring Satan.

But as seen now, that may not be an option as there may be times we'd have no choice.

What are we supposed to do as Christians?

That's good questions. If the State is openly worshipping satan in it's buildings, then if Christians do business within those buildings, are they coming into agreement with the satanists? That would be bad but I tink that may be true legally speaking.

There is only one other option and His name is Yashua.

What happens after they roll out the new digital currency or mark of the beast?We wont be able to buy anything. I wont be able to get my medication that I need a lot. So that will be a trying time. But God has made provision for these times for His people so I don''t have to worry.

I think that what we are to do as Christians is not do business with them. It would seem that the time is fast approaching where there will be many ungovernable people.
 
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ViaCrucis

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Yeah this is what I'm thinking. The man was in the wrong (did he have a sword or something to decapitate said statue?) to just destroy it.

I do wonder about what Christians should do though... I know I would be opposed to walking into any capital building that was busy honoring Satan.

But as seen now, that may not be an option as there may be times we'd have no choice.

What are we supposed to do as Christians?

We are entering a time where Christians are a minority here, so how do we live like Christians when surrounded by idols and things detestable to God..?

Vandalism isn't the answer, but what is?

Should we just tell the state we can't walk into their building seeing as they turned it into a satanic temple?

St. Paul in his first epistle to the Corinthians tells them that one can't sit at the table of demons and also at Christ's Table--contrasting the Eucharist where we partake of Christ's body and blood, with the food offered to idols. In that same place he says:

"'All things are lawful,' but not all things are helpful. 'All things are lawful,' but not all things build up. Let no one seek his own good, but the good of his neighbor. Eat whatever is sold in the meat market without raising any question on the ground of conscience. For 'the earth is the Lord's, and the fullness thereof.' If one of the unbelievers invites you to dinner and you are disposed to go, eat whatever is set before you without raising any question on the ground of conscience. But if someone says to you, 'This has been offered in sacrifice,' then do not eat it, for the sake of the one who informed you, and for the sake of conscience--I do not mean your conscience, but for theirs. For why should my liberty be determined by someone else's conscience? If I partake with thankfulness, why am I denounced because of that for which I give thanks?

So, whether you eat or dink, or whatever you do, do all for the glory of God. Give no offense to Jews or to Greeks or to the Church of God, just as I try to please everyone in everything I do, not seeking my own advantage, but that of many, that they may be saved.
" - 1 Corinthians 10:23-33

Paul isn't contradicting himself, because he had just immediately before this called eating and drinking at the table of idols is partaking in the cup and table of demons; and saying "flee from idolatry".

Paul began this conversation about food offered to idols back in chapter 8 of this epistle, saying it this way,

"Now concerning food offered to idols: we know that 'all of us possess knowledge.' This 'knowledge' puffs up, but loves builds up. If anyone imagines that he knows something, he does not yet know as he ought to know. But if anyone loves God, he is known by God.

Therefore, as to the eating of food sacrificed to idols, we know that 'an idol has no real existence,' and that 'there is no God but one.' For although there may be s-called 'gods' in heaven or on earth--as indeed there are many 'gods' and many 'lords'--yet for us there is one God, the Father, from whom are all things and for whom we exist, and one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom are all things and through whom we exist.

However, not all possess this knowledge. But some, through former association with idols, eat food as really offered to an idol, and their conscience, being weak, is defiled. Food will not commend us to God. We are no worse off if we do not eat, and no better off if we do. But take care that this right of yours does not somehow become a stumbling block to the weak. For if anyone sees you who have knowledge eating in an idol's temple, will he not be encouraged, if his conscience is weak, to eat food offered to idols? And so by your knowledge this weak person is destroyed, the brother for whom Christ died. Thus, sinning against your brothers and wounding their conscience when it is weak, you sin against Christ. Therefore, if food makes my brother stumble, I will never eat meat, lest I make my brother stumble.
" - 1 Corinthians 8:1-13

The weight of responsibility, here, is not about asserting ourselves as "moral" people; but in a sense the opposite of that: the weight of responsibility, moral responsibility, is in regard to our neighbors. If we go to the market and buy food, don't raise a stink about where it came from just in case it was food dedicated to a pagan god, just buy your food go home and eat dinner; if you are at someone's house, don't raise a stink about where the food came from. Be a good guest, be thankful for the food, honor God in that way. Now, if someone makes a big show about how this food was offered to an idol and this meal is an act of worship or devotion or celebration to some god--well then politely decline the food. Not for your sake, but for theirs. It's not about our morality, it's about their conscience.

I go into a Thai restaurant and see images of the Buddha, do you eat? Do any of us make a fuss over it? I certainly hope not. We go, enjoy our meal, are thankful for the food, probably saying grace before the meal. And, as Christians, ought to treat the wait staff respectfully, and (at least here in the US) offer a good tip because the worker deserves their wages. We probably do this right after church, as well.

Now what if there were, instead, images of Zeus, Poseidon, Ra, or Odin? What if it was a restaurant run by someone who worships the ancient Greek pantheon (as the pagans in Corinth would have), would we refuse to eat there then? Is our cultural familiarity with East Asian restaurants with Buddhist (as just one example) imagery make one technically less idolatrous than the other? That'd be silly, right? We wouldn't, or shouldn't raise a stink about it, make a fuss, but rather eat our food, offer thanks for the food in a Christian manner, be polite and respectful guests and patrons of the establishment.

So now we are dealing with modern Satanist imagery, a satanic idol rather than, say, an image of the Buddha, or an image of Zeus. But what did the Apostle say in 1 Corinthians 10, the table/cup of idols is the table/cup of demons. Paul doesn't make a distinction. Zeus doesn't exist, so who or what is honored by the idolatry of those who offer food sacrificed to Zeus? Well for Paul it seems obvious, it's the devil. The devil is a liar, a deceiver, holding the world blind and captive through deceit and waging a war against all creation through death.

So, from a purely pragmatic, purely biblical perspective, what's the difference? The only difference is that with one we take offense and the other we don't; with one we raise a fuss but the other we don't. We assert ourselves with one, but with the other we don't.

Now, I'm not saying anyone has to go eat in a Satanist-run restaurant (keeping the restaurant analogy going I suppose), but no one has to go eat at Buddhist-run restaurant either. Eat what you want, that's the freedom Paul talks about throughout his letters. The point I'm raising here is that Paul seems to suggest that our engagement with the broader culture should be thoughtful rather than reactionary.

It's probably a given that, in the ancient Greco-Roman world Christians were confronted with pagan imagery literally everywhere. There was no such thing as the separation of church (temple?) and state. The whole of society was suffused with the icons, ornaments, language, and smells and bells of Paganism, it was inescapable and unavoidable. And what does Paul tell Christians to do? Go retreat into a cave, avoid society to remain "pure"? No, he says go out and love people, be a faithful witness of Jesus, live humbly, be respectful, be kind, act with gentleness. Be a good neighbor, putting the needs of others above our own. Don't assert ourselves, but build up others with love; defend the conscience of the weak by not asserting our freedom when that would be a problem. Live peaceably, he says in Romans 12, with all insofar as it is up to us.

If there is a idol in the front of a state building, and you need to go in and do some business, then pay the idol no mind, go in and do your business. Be respectful, show kindness, act as a Christian ought. If for someone reason someone told you to go and bow before that idol and offer sacrifice or prayer--then obviously don't. And remain firm in your rejection of all idolatry--but don't make a fuss because you are present in the world, and the world is the world. Remember that we are all strangers and pilgrims here (1 Peter 2:11).

The lusts of the flesh aren't only in the obvious things; but (and often far more dangerously) in the subtle things. The devil, as you recall, likes to appear as "an angel of light". It's not the beastly idols of a diabolical looking statue created by modern Satanists that I would be concerned with; it's the "angel of light" that we should be far more concerned about. The subtle temptations, where the devil would pervert our faith and religion within us toward destructive ends, that we would conflate our passions with piety.

To that end, I'd like to offer this illustration. In the 2003 movie Luther there is an exchange between Cardinal Cajetan and Aleander, Cajetan has recommended Aleander to the Pope to become a cardinal. In the exchange Cajetan asks Aleander what it is that he wants most, to which Aleander responds, "To serve God, to serve Him with all my heart" to which Cajetan responds, "And that is how you will be tempted". I don't get into the complexities of the history of Cajetan or how he's portrayed in the film here--the point is instead the recognition that the desire to do good can itself become temptation and produce sin. This is actually very close to the heart of certain aspects of Lutheran theology about Original Sin and the whole problem of "Good Works" in relation to God, but I digress.

For a more familiar pop culture illustration, while it is rather portrayed hammily, is Anikin Skywalker's fall from grace in the Star Wars prequels, and how he became Darth Vader. Anikin didn't begin his walk toward the dark side with bad intentions, but with good. He was fiercely zealous in his devotion to things like justice and love--but those things were twisted, misshapen, his mind was poisoned by lies from Palpatine, his fears, his rage. He didn't start out committing slaughter, that came much later--the dark within him, that was the problem. Lofty ideals, good intentions, our own sense of right and wrong can themselves be tools of darkness. And that's something we have to be very careful about. The devil doesn't show up in a dark hood as "The Emperor", as Darth Sidious, but as calm, moral, upstanding, Sheev Palpatine. And that's the actual danger. And appearing as an angel of light, tempt, whisper, lie, seduce. Because there is a darkness in each of us, sin. And we are inclined toward it from the deepest recesses of our heart and bones.

-CryptoLutheran
 
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Hazelelponi

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St. Paul in his first epistle to the Corinthians tells them that one can't sit at the table of demons and also at Christ's Table--contrasting the Eucharist where we partake of Christ's body and blood, with the food offered to idols. In that same place he says:

"'All things are lawful,' but not all things are helpful. 'All things are lawful,' but not all things build up. Let no one seek his own good, but the good of his neighbor. Eat whatever is sold in the meat market without raising any question on the ground of conscience. For 'the earth is the Lord's, and the fullness thereof.' If one of the unbelievers invites you to dinner and you are disposed to go, eat whatever is set before you without raising any question on the ground of conscience. But if someone says to you, 'This has been offered in sacrifice,' then do not eat it, for the sake of the one who informed you, and for the sake of conscience--I do not mean your conscience, but for theirs. For why should my liberty be determined by someone else's conscience? If I partake with thankfulness, why am I denounced because of that for which I give thanks?

So, whether you eat or dink, or whatever you do, do all for the glory of God. Give no offense to Jews or to Greeks or to the Church of God, just as I try to please everyone in everything I do, not seeking my own advantage, but that of many, that they may be saved.
" - 1 Corinthians 10:23-33

Paul isn't contradicting himself, because he had just immediately before this called eating and drinking at the table of idols is partaking in the cup and table of demons; and saying "flee from idolatry".

Paul began this conversation about food offered to idols back in chapter 8 of this epistle, saying it this way,

"Now concerning food offered to idols: we know that 'all of us possess knowledge.' This 'knowledge' puffs up, but loves builds up. If anyone imagines that he knows something, he does not yet know as he ought to know. But if anyone loves God, he is known by God.

Therefore, as to the eating of food sacrificed to idols, we know that 'an idol has no real existence,' and that 'there is no God but one.' For although there may be s-called 'gods' in heaven or on earth--as indeed there are many 'gods' and many 'lords'--yet for us there is one God, the Father, from whom are all things and for whom we exist, and one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom are all things and through whom we exist.

However, not all possess this knowledge. But some, through former association with idols, eat food as really offered to an idol, and their conscience, being weak, is defiled. Food will not commend us to God. We are no worse off if we do not eat, and no better off if we do. But take care that this right of yours does not somehow become a stumbling block to the weak. For if anyone sees you who have knowledge eating in an idol's temple, will he not be encouraged, if his conscience is weak, to eat food offered to idols? And so by your knowledge this weak person is destroyed, the brother for whom Christ died. Thus, sinning against your brothers and wounding their conscience when it is weak, you sin against Christ. Therefore, if food makes my brother stumble, I will never eat meat, lest I make my brother stumble.
" - 1 Corinthians 8:1-13

The weight of responsibility, here, is not about asserting ourselves as "moral" people; but in a sense the opposite of that: the weight of responsibility, moral responsibility, is in regard to our neighbors. If we go to the market and buy food, don't raise a stink about where it came from just in case it was food dedicated to a pagan god, just buy your food go home and eat dinner; if you are at someone's house, don't raise a stink about where the food came from. Be a good guest, be thankful for the food, honor God in that way. Now, if someone makes a big show about how this food was offered to an idol and this meal is an act of worship or devotion or celebration to some god--well then politely decline the food. Not for your sake, but for theirs. It's not about our morality, it's about their conscience.

I go into a Thai restaurant and see images of the Buddha, do you eat? Do any of us make a fuss over it? I certainly hope not. We go, enjoy our meal, are thankful for the food, probably saying grace before the meal. And, as Christians, ought to treat the wait staff respectfully, and (at least here in the US) offer a good tip because the worker deserves their wages. We probably do this right after church, as well.

Now what if there were, instead, images of Zeus, Poseidon, Ra, or Odin? What if it was a restaurant run by someone who worships the ancient Greek pantheon (as the pagans in Corinth would have), would we refuse to eat there then? Is our cultural familiarity with East Asian restaurants with Buddhist (as just one example) imagery make one technically less idolatrous than the other? That'd be silly, right? We wouldn't, or shouldn't raise a stink about it, make a fuss, but rather eat our food, offer thanks for the food in a Christian manner, be polite and respectful guests and patrons of the establishment.

So now we are dealing with modern Satanist imagery, a satanic idol rather than, say, an image of the Buddha, or an image of Zeus. But what did the Apostle say in 1 Corinthians 10, the table/cup of idols is the table/cup of demons. Paul doesn't make a distinction. Zeus doesn't exist, so who or what is honored by the idolatry of those who offer food sacrificed to Zeus? Well for Paul it seems obvious, it's the devil. The devil is a liar, a deceiver, holding the world blind and captive through deceit and waging a war against all creation through death.

So, from a purely pragmatic, purely biblical perspective, what's the difference? The only difference is that with one we take offense and the other we don't; with one we raise a fuss but the other we don't. We assert ourselves with one, but with the other we don't.

Now, I'm not saying anyone has to go eat in a Satanist-run restaurant (keeping the restaurant analogy going I suppose), but no one has to go eat at Buddhist-run restaurant either. Eat what you want, that's the freedom Paul talks about throughout his letters. The point I'm raising here is that Paul seems to suggest that our engagement with the broader culture should be thoughtful rather than reactionary.

It's probably a given that, in the ancient Greco-Roman world Christians were confronted with pagan imagery literally everywhere. There was no such thing as the separation of church (temple?) and state. The whole of society was suffused with the icons, ornaments, language, and smells and bells of Paganism, it was inescapable and unavoidable. And what does Paul tell Christians to do? Go retreat into a cave, avoid society to remain "pure"? No, he says go out and love people, be a faithful witness of Jesus, live humbly, be respectful, be kind, act with gentleness. Be a good neighbor, putting the needs of others above our own. Don't assert ourselves, but build up others with love; defend the conscience of the weak by not asserting our freedom when that would be a problem. Live peaceably, he says in Romans 12, with all insofar as it is up to us.

If there is a idol in the front of a state building, and you need to go in and do some business, then pay the idol no mind, go in and do your business. Be respectful, show kindness, act as a Christian ought. If for someone reason someone told you to go and bow before that idol and offer sacrifice or prayer--then obviously don't. And remain firm in your rejection of all idolatry--but don't make a fuss because you are present in the world, and the world is the world. Remember that we are all strangers and pilgrims here (1 Peter 2:11).

The lusts of the flesh aren't only in the obvious things; but (and often far more dangerously) in the subtle things. The devil, as you recall, likes to appear as "an angel of light". It's not the beastly idols of a diabolical looking statue created by modern Satanists that I would be concerned with; it's the "angel of light" that we should be far more concerned about. The subtle temptations, where the devil would pervert our faith and religion within us toward destructive ends, that we would conflate our passions with piety.

To that end, I'd like to offer this illustration. In the 2003 movie Luther there is an exchange between Cardinal Cajetan and Aleander, Cajetan has recommended Aleander to the Pope to become a cardinal. In the exchange Cajetan asks Aleander what it is that he wants most, to which Aleander responds, "To serve God, to serve Him with all my heart" to which Cajetan responds, "And that is how you will be tempted". I don't get into the complexities of the history of Cajetan or how he's portrayed in the film here--the point is instead the recognition that the desire to do good can itself become temptation and produce sin. This is actually very close to the heart of certain aspects of Lutheran theology about Original Sin and the whole problem of "Good Works" in relation to God, but I digress.

For a more familiar pop culture illustration, while it is rather portrayed hammily, is Anikin Skywalker's fall from grace in the Star Wars prequels, and how he became Darth Vader. Anikin didn't begin his walk toward the dark side with bad intentions, but with good. He was fiercely zealous in his devotion to things like justice and love--but those things were twisted, misshapen, his mind was poisoned by lies from Palpatine, his fears, his rage. He didn't start out committing slaughter, that came much later--the dark within him, that was the problem. Lofty ideals, good intentions, our own sense of right and wrong can themselves be tools of darkness. And that's something we have to be very careful about. The devil doesn't show up in a dark hood as "The Emperor", as Darth Sidious, but as calm, moral, upstanding, Sheev Palpatine. And that's the actual danger. And appearing as an angel of light, tempt, whisper, lie, seduce. Because there is a darkness in each of us, sin. And we are inclined toward it from the deepest recesses of our heart and bones.

-CryptoLutheran

Okay... I have more questions I suppose which answers will help me.

First - I've never been to a restaurant with a Buddha or a pagan symbol of any kind... So, tiny bit lost with the analogy since I've never been invited to one either but I think I understand what you are saying but I want to make sure everything is in line with Scriptures here in my thought process.

Using your analogy and seeing what Paul is saying, what your saying is that if someone invited me to a restaurant and it had pagan symbols or statues to a god, to be polite I should just attend without speaking about the location.

So here's a question - is this with other Christians too? Or is it just with society at large (aka my boss invited my husband and I)?

With other Christians are we allowed to say it makes us uncomfortable if we know about said statues in advance?

I understand about pagan symbols and such, but coming from an Islamic background some things will likely always be more difficult for me (such as satanic alters)...

But now that your saying statues and such are common in restaurants I would be curious how to respond in the situation.
 
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ViaCrucis

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Okay... I have more questions I suppose which answers will help me.

First - I've never been to a restaurant with a Buddha or a pagan symbol of any kind... So, tiny bit lost with the analogy since I've never been invited to one either but I think I understand what you are saying but I want to make sure everything is in line with Scriptures here in my thought process.

Using your analogy and seeing what Paul is saying, what your saying is that if someone invited me to a restaurant and it had pagan symbols or statues to a god, to be polite I should just attend without speaking about the location.

So here's a question - is this with other Christians too? Or is it just with society at large (aka my boss invited my husband and I)?

With other Christians are we allowed to say it makes us uncomfortable if we know about said statues in advance?

I understand about pagan symbols and such, but coming from an Islamic background some things will likely always be more difficult for me (such as satanic alters)...

But now that your saying statues and such are common in restaurants I would be curious how to respond in the situation.

This could be a reflection of regional differences and just lived experiences.

I live in the Pacific Northwest of the United States, and the West Coast of the US has always had a high number of immigrants from East Asia. And that means that I have always had, even in small towns, access to a wide variety of Asian restaurants. Chinese, Korean, Thai, Japanese, Vietnamese, etc.

Over two decades ago my family would, sometimes by ourselves and sometimes with other families from church, go to one of the local Thai restaurants in our small town after church. Thailand is a very Buddhist nation, in fact I believe Buddhism is the official state religion even to this day. Lots of Thai families open restaurants and they decorate them to reflect their culture and traditions (though I suspect it is sometimes done intentionally moreso in the West to cater to Western expectations of "the exotic" but that's beside the point). I've never walked into a Thai restaurant where I haven't seen a Buddha statue somewhere. In other types of Asian restaurants, other Buddhist images, like statues of Budai*, are also very common.

I don't think this has even ever been a topic of conversation. I've had Thai food with pastors, family friends, my own personal friends, with family, with a group of friends, for decades. Same with Chinese, Japanese, or other restaurants.

Religious iconography/images reflecting the religious/cultural beliefs of the people who run the establishment are ubiquitous. It never occurred to me that this wouldn't be a common experience when eating out with other people.

As far as telling other Christians it makes us uncomfortable, I guess I've just never encountered that before. The general way of things is to recognize that we live in a diverse culture where people of many religious and ethnic backgrounds exist, and so naturally that's going to show up in everyday life. I can't even think of a time in my now 40+ years of life where any Christian family member, fellow church-goer, or Christian peers/friends felt a need to even bring it up as a point of conversation. Usually if anything gets mentioned about the decor, it's usually about something else and someone saying "oh that looks cool" or "that looks pretty" and that's about it.

-CryptoLutheran
 
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Aaron112

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We are entering a time where Christians are a minority here, so how do we live like Christians when surrounded by idols and things detestable to God..?
Here we are, in a dangerous world/ forum/ internet. Godliness is foreign for the most part. A few are Godly, but most never have been and never will be. Will followers of Jesus survive or be martyred as in the past throughout history ? We cannot 'win' as we are outnumbered over a hundred perhaps a thousand to one....... and the rules are not in our favor....
But now that your saying statues and such are common in restaurants I would be curious how to respond in the situation.
pray a lot .......
 
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