Selling the gospel?

soldier of light · Feb 6, 2025

Strong in Him said:
It's not clear at all.
Compared with many other people in the world, you live in luxury. Compared with Jesus and Paul, you live in untold, never-to-be-dreamed-of luxury.
Paul would never have considered that someone might be able to communicate with Christians in other countries just by pressing a few keys on a keyboard. Yet here you are.
Paul would never have thought that he might be able to get in a machine that would fly through the air - yet many people treat flying as routine.

I'm poor. I dont own a car let alone a flying car. The phone is necessary. It's more than a luxury to me. It's how I share Jesus and I also have doctors appointments over the phone.

Strong in Him · Feb 6, 2025

soldier of light said:
I'm poor. I dont own a car let alone a flying car. The phone is necessary. It's more than a luxury to me. It's how I share Jesus and I also have doctors appointments over the phone.

Yes, that's as maybe.
Compared with pop stars, or even the average person, you are poor. Compared with people in some countries, you are rich. And I suspect that Paul would have considered that you live in luxury.

soldier of light · Feb 6, 2025

Strong in Him said:
Yes, that's as maybe.
Compared with pop stars, or even the average person, you are poor. Compared with people in some countries, you are rich. And I suspect that Paul would have considered that you live in luxury.

I have food and a roof over my head but no money. I'm poor but taken care of.

Aaron112 · Feb 6, 2025

soldier of light said:
I'm not interested in debating word definitions. It seems clear enough. Let the scripture speak

Amen. The messengers of Yahweh, of the Good News of Yeshua HaMashiach,
would
not be preaching a different message today...... they would still (and do 'from the grave') be warning with many exhortations to repent , to turn to Jesus, to do as Jesus taught them, as we learn from Jesus Today .... to do what is right in Yahweh's Eyes. Not to cave in nor fear man's wrong ways, destructive ways, harmful ways ....
rather to learn Jesus' Righteousness, to life likewise - healing, peaceful, truthful... renouncing all that is evil and what is of the world , to give up what is opposed to Jesus and opposed to Jesus' people.

Strong in Him · Feb 7, 2025

soldier of light said:
I have food and a roof over my head but no money. I'm poor but taken care of.

I'm not denying that. I'm saying that compared to many people in the world, you are rich.
So am I.
I suspect that our houses are far superior to those of Jesus/Paul's day. They would consider us to be rich too.

Aaron112 · Feb 7, 2025

The faithful chinese , russian, and african believers consider most americans poor and perhaps wretched. (their testimonies over the years, that they are praying for usa so suffering might purify some people's faith , God Willing)

Aaron112 · Feb 7, 2025

r/DebateAChristian on Reddit: Woe to the rich?

"Top answerAll answers (4)
Yes, this is a huge problem in the Evangelical Church. Wealth is looked upon as a blessing from God, when in fact everything in the New Testament contradicts that. You have people like Rick Warren preaching to millions a false Gospel that God is going to bless them financially. If there's really going to be reform in the church and Christianity, it has to start with money."
===========================
Luke 6:24

24“But woe to you who are rich, for you have already received your comfort. 25Woe to you who are well fed now, for you will go hungry. Woe to you who laugh now, for you will mourn and weep.

soldier of light · Feb 7, 2025

Strong in Him said:
I'm not denying that. I'm saying that compared to many people in the world, you are rich.
So am I.
I suspect that our houses are far superior to those of Jesus/Paul's day. They would consider us to be rich too.

I have no money

Always in His Presence · Feb 7, 2025

linux.poet said:
The injustice is the TobyMac's net worth could be higher than Billy Graham's was

1. Estimated Net Worth: As of 2023, TobyMac’s net worth is estimated to be around $15 million. This figure is a result of his successful music career, which includes album sales, concerts, royalties, and various business ventures.

2. Billy Graham: Net Worth $25 Million

Strong in Him · Feb 7, 2025

soldier of light said:
I have no money

I'm sorry to hear that.
And I'm not trying to make light of your situation or to be dismissive in any way. I'm only saying that compared to other people in the world - like Gaza, for example - we are rich.

I do hear what you're saying about luxury.
I would define luxury as owning a private plane, a yacht, several cars, living in a house worth millions etc - the sort of lifestyle film stars, pop stars or these tv evangelists have. Such extreme wealth is unimaginable and almost obscene.
But even that may not be what it seems. A couple may have 4 cars because they are a family of 4. The parents could have bought a house cheaply and modernised/extended it themselves. They could have been left an inheritance after other family members died.

The Bible doesn't say that it's wrong to have a certain amount of money or a certain number of possessions. It's what people do with it and their attitude towards it that Jesus warns about.
And it's just as well for the church, Christian charities and so on that there are some rich people who are willing to finance them.

The Liturgist · Feb 7, 2025

soldier of light said:
I have a problem with people who sell gospel music and their flawed doctrine. Why should i pay to worship God and to hear Gods word? I have a free Bible. Am I wrong?

1 Corinthians 9:18 What is my reward then? That when I preach the gospel, I may present the gospel of Christ without charge, that I may not abuse my authority in the gospel.

Matthew 21:12 Then Jesus went into the temple of God and drove out all those who bought and sold in the temple, and overturned the tables of the money changers and the seats of those who sold doves. 13 And He said to them, “It is written, ‘My house shall be called a house of prayer,’ but you have made it a ‘den of thieves.’ ”

I don’t listen to praise and worship music, if that’s what you mean by “Gospel” (I generally associate that word with African American spirituals, which are in somewhat of a different category, being the pious traditional church music of the Black community, for example, the hymn commemorating the baptism of our Lord “wade in the river” which has become popular in mainline Protestant churches. But increasingly, the term seems to be used as a catch-all in reference to the monotonous praise and worship, “Christian rock” and related music one hears on the radio, and in most non-denominational churches (and increasingly unfortunately dominating the evangelical and Calvinist churches and even many parishes of the Roman Catholic Church, especially out west) and I find the lyrics of this music to be vapid and light on doctrine, heavy on emotion, and not edifying.

The traditional hymns, whether the beautiful chorales of Martin Luther, Charles Wesley and Arthur Sullivan, or the exquisite ancient model Ambrosian, Gregorian, Armenian, Syriac, Coptic, Ethiopian, Assyrian and Byzantine chant, or the choral compositions of Bach, Bortniansky, Dyson, Chesnokov Howells, etc, can be heard for free through streaming any of the various beautiful liturgical church services on YouTube. In my own denomination the average age of our hymns is about a thousand years, with roughly half composed before 1,000 AD, and the other half after 1,000 AD.

One quick and easy way to find beautiful church music is to just look up Choral Evensong on YouTube. St. Thomas Fifth Ave is particularly good.

The Liturgist · Feb 7, 2025

Always in His Presence said:
1. Estimated Net Worth: As of 2023, TobyMac’s net worth is estimated to be around $15 million. This figure is a result of his successful music career, which includes album sales, concerts, royalties, and various business ventures.

2. Billy Graham: Net Worth $25 Million

Presumably you mean his son William Franklin Graham III, as Rev. Billy Graham reposed in the Lord in 2018. He was much loved by the Orthodox in the former Soviet Union, because during the Communist rule, they were restricted from most preaching or catechesis, but Billy Graham, through his reputation, was able to obtain permission to travel through Russia and preach, and he did so with a blessing from the Patriarch, and in this manner provided crucial information about basic Christian doctrines to the population, who were not able to easily access this information if they did not have Christian parents, since the churches were particularly prohibited from engaging in any kind of catechesis or religious education of young people (and groups like the Pioneers and Komsomol existed to promote the militant Bolshevik Atheist ideology and Marxist-Leninist thought, so as to promote compliance with the regime).

The Liturgist · Feb 7, 2025

phuong nguyen said:
People charging to hear divine preaching seems strange since the Lord's word should exist freely. Religion belongs to everyone and the community should not need to submit payments for worship services. Jesus clearly stated in Matthew 21 that the temple was created for prayer instead of profit. The feeling of discomfort about sellers who profit from gospel music and worship makes logical sense. Being true to the message takes precedence while anyone should freely share the word without payment.

I am really opposed to those pastors, primarily of mega-churches, who sell taped recordings of their sermons.

The Liturgist · Feb 7, 2025

soldier of light said:
So Paul did something unnecessary. I'm having a hard time understanding why. Maybe you're right. Maybe I'm wrong. But I still can't listen to people who get rich from the gospel. Surely you're not suggesting that? Paul said that is a sinful trap.

I would oppose listening to people who get rich from the Gospel. Now, most clergy who are paid earn a very modest living, especially in the Orthodox Church, and many of our clergy are unpaid or are monastics whose pay covers only their living expenses (but most of our presbyters in established parishes are married, and for them an effort is made to provide enough financial support so that their family is taken care of). The advantage of having paid clergy is being able to have someone on call during the week to visit people in the congregation who become ill, and who can conduct additional services as needed, and are there to support the congregation. Even unpaid clergy often get slammed with requests for assistance from parishioners which in many cases they are unable to accommodate. In the case of St. Paul, he was dependent on the hospitality of the different churches he established and ministered to, and later of Caesar, initially voluntarily and then as a prisoner.

Always in His Presence · Feb 7, 2025

The Liturgist said:
Presumably you mean his son William Franklin Graham III, as Rev. Billy Graham reposed in the Lord in 2018. He was much loved by the Orthodox in the former Soviet Union, because during the Communist rule, they were restricted from most preaching or catechesis, but Billy Graham, through his reputation, was able to obtain permission to travel through Russia and preach, and he did so with a blessing from the Patriarch, and in this manner provided crucial information about basic Christian doctrines to the population, who were not able to easily access this information if they did not have Christian parents, since the churches were particularly prohibited from engaging in any kind of catechesis or religious education of young people (and groups like the Pioneers and Komsomol existed to promote the militant Bolshevik Atheist ideology and Marxist-Leninist thought, so as to promote compliance with the regime).

You presume incorrectly - Rev. Billy Graham - who owned a mountain in the Carolina's - had a net worth of 25,000,000.

And yes - he was loved by many different denominations.

This was his 'humble home"

RandyPNW · Feb 7, 2025

phuong nguyen said:
People charging to hear divine preaching seems strange since the Lord's word should exist freely.

You are declaring something that sounds strange to me. Ministers do not "charge for people to hear the Gospel" like an actor or musician might charge his audience to hear his performance.

What happens is that the minister's costs and labor are compensated for, not so much in the marketplace but in the interest of the need for evangelism. Giving to ministry is not a marketplace enterprise, as you rightly appear to suggest. But it is work that should be supported financially, however the giver sees fit.

If the minister writes books, that may be a combination of ministry and marketplace endeavor. In that case, the profit motive may legitimately play a role, just as it does when we buy a secular book or buy property. We pay for it what the seller thinks the product is worth. It is not wrong even for a minister to pursue profit in some measure. Must he live in a trailer instead of in a house?

phuong nguyen said:
Religion belongs to everyone and the community should not need to submit payments for worship services. Jesus clearly stated in Matthew 21 that the temple was created for prayer instead of profit. The feeling of discomfort about sellers who profit from gospel music and worship makes logical sense. Being true to the message takes precedence while anyone should freely share the word without payment.

Always in His Presence · Feb 7, 2025

A Christian artist is NOT selling the Gospel - that is a ridiculous claim. They are selling a product - whether intellectual or media.

People either find value they are willing to pay for or not.

The Liturgist · Feb 8, 2025

Always in His Presence said:
You presume incorrectly - Rev. Billy Graham - who owned a mountain in the Carolina's - had a net worth of 25,000,000.

Well that’s unsurprising.

Selling the gospel?

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