Trump Considers big cuts to the Department of Education

Stephen3141 · Feb 4, 2025

https://www.npr.org/2025/02/03/nx-s1-5282233/trump-to-make-big-cuts-to-education-department

A lot of members of the Democratic Party and Republican Party think that the
government is spending TOO MUCH on education. There are pointers to the
public surveys, in the article.

This is a curious situation. There have been many articles asserting (and I believe it)
that the level of language skills and math skills are far too low among K8 and K12
students. And, this is not caused by the pandemic. They were low, before the
pandemic.

I think that there is a general agreement among American citizens, that we are
throwing money at K12 education, and IT IS NOT WORKING.

The obvious topic, is how to fix the American K12 educational system. Generally,
students of wealthy parents do much better in language and math skills, than
students of poor parents.

But studies and surveys seem to be unable to find clear factors that lead to better
educational achievement. Specifically, what are the characteristics of a home culture,
that make it difficult for children in that home culture to do well in school? Instead of
pointing out the big category of "poverty", I would like to see characteristics of home
culture that lead to poverty. And I would like to see the Department of Education to
start to deal with those (controversial) characteristics.

JimR-OCDS · Feb 4, 2025

Good, the department of education is the most over funded and failure in our nation.

People are choosing to home school rather than send their children to the public schools
which have promoted immorality and disrespect.

ViaCrucis · Feb 4, 2025

I'm glad. Kids should be working the coal mines, not doing them book learnins.

-CryptoLutheran

Akita Suggagaki · Feb 4, 2025

ViaCrucis said:
I'm glad. Kids should be working the coal mines, not doing them book learnins.

-CryptoLutheran

Right home schooling is for them kids with highfalutin educator parents.
They don't need education to get their hands dirty doing productive jobs.

ViaCrucis · Feb 4, 2025

Akita Suggagaki said:
Right home schooling is for them kids with highfalutin educator parents.
They don't need education to get their hands dirty doing productive jobs.

Well maybe lil Suzy should be learnin how to fold clothes, while Jimmy gets to the mines. Oh, sure, perhaps if ma 'n pa gots the time they can teach 'em some countin--but don't be learnin too much. Too much learnin will get to your head ya see. Then you be gettin into them books and who knows what them books are sayin. Could be sayin' all sorts of things. Keep them kids home, or at the mines.

Books ain't never did none any good anyhow.

-CryptoLutheran

Akita Suggagaki · Feb 4, 2025

ViaCrucis said:
Well maybe lil Suzy should be learnin how to fold clothes, while Jimmy gets to the mines. Oh, sure, perhaps if ma 'n pa gots the time they can teach 'em some countin--but don't be learnin too much. Too much learnin will get to your head ya see. Then you be gettin into them books and who knows what them books are sayin. Could be sayin' all sorts of things. Keep them kids home, or at the mines.

Books ain't never did none any good anyhow.

-CryptoLutheran

. Might even start to question ma and pa ways of doing things.

Stephen3141 · Feb 5, 2025

To make my position clear, in starting this thread...

1 I DO think that a serious education is necessary, for modern kids to fit
into the increasingly high tech work economy.

2 I support serious educational standards, as ANY "education" will not prepare
kids to fit well into a modern economy

3 Home schooling IS a potential positive option. BUT, home schooling needs to
have serious educational standards, and the parents need to be able to support
the learning of the kids. A Department of Education IS needed, to set serious
standards for schooling. These standards do not need to promote merely secular values.

4 Historic Christianity has a HUGE history of supporting the intellectual development
of both children and adults. BUT, there are anti-intellectual Christians who do not
accept this historical history of rigorous education. I DO NOT see home schooling
by anti-intellectual parents, to be a valid option.

5 It was Christians in Britain, that did away with child labor, in England. There is no
warrant for Christians to joke about doing away with child education, and promoting
that kids should go back to archaic concepts of child labor.

6 There are serious theological reasons why Christians should rigorously educate their
children. These have to do with the dignity of a human being being made in the
image of God. Simply ditching the Department of Education, and having NO
educational standards, is not really a Christian option.

Stephen3141 · Feb 5, 2025

https://www.npr.org/2025/02/04/nx-s1-5286311/trump-schools-education-department-funding-cuts-congress-student-loans

Christians should note that the Department of Education was created
by congress in 1979, and has a budge of about 79 billion dollars. Pretty
much all this funding, was allotted by Congress. The department has
4,000 employees.

The states still have the power to decide WHAT is being taught in schools,
in each state.

Most of the work of the Department of Education seems to be to alot funds
to school districts that are poor, and do not have sufficient funding by state
taxes. And, to oversee funds to help college students.

This is a system of funding, that bypasses the STANDARDS of state education.
And this, is a mess.

Note that America needs a national standard for K12 education, and NOT individual
state standards. Note that many colleges, have GONE BACK TO STANDARDIZED
TESTING, not for any political reason, but because without standardized tests
(such as the ACT), the degrees of colleges are pretty useless. While colleges
know what they have to do, to maintain the value of their degree courses, STATES
often, DO NOT. Christian Nationalists (I assert), and anti-intellectual religious groups,
also DO NOT KNOW WHAT IS REQUIRED FOR K12 STUDENT SKILLS.

Much of the (Christian) discussion of school curricula standards, focusses on
teaching respect and dignity to students. BUT, this discussion often CONFUSES
teaching basic (Christian) politeness and morality, with the larger academic
curricula that all American K12 students need to learn. The Taliban, also, teaches
respect for your elders, and (a sort of) stunted concepts of dignity of human beings.
Christians should not confuse teaching K12 students respect and human dignity,
with educational curricula.

Note that the historical Christian education framework taught the philosophical
discipline of Moral Theory, which includes the standard Moral-Ethical models,
both those compatible with Christianity, and those NOT compatible with Christianity.
These seriously discuss accepted virtues and vices, providing a foundation to discuss
what our shared reality is, what telling the truth is, what a fair rule of law is, and what
justice is. These Judea-Christian virtues and values, and what America was founded on.
AND, many American Christian congregations, right now, are relatively ignorant of
these philosophical primitives. (I assert this.)
---------- ----------

Note that getting rid of the Department of Education, will NOT solve the problem of the
erosion of the K12 curricula, as the Department does not decide the curricula.

Note that private Christian schools could be a very good option to public education,
BUT THAT DEPENDS ON THE QUALITY OF THE CURRICULA. Courses that teach
competency in the standardized college entrance exams, and augment that material
with the unique Christian worldview, is what is needed.

Christian schools that undermine the life of the mind, and instead teach that the
Scriptures are a repository of all knowledge and truth, do not represent the
historical Jewish and Christian worldview of knowledge and wisdom. This sort of
"Christian" schooling, is destructive.
---------- ----------

Simply getting rid of the Department of Education, does not address the American
disaster of American K12 schools, producing functionally-illiterate students.

Stephen3141 · Feb 5, 2025

From an article from the magazine, First Things, on a Chinese evaluation of
the American educational system...

China, DeepSeek, and American Complacency - First Things

History is a heartless teacher. Three hundred years before Christ, Carthage was a prosperous commercial empire dominating the Mediterranean, sustained and protected by the world’s most powerful navy. Rome...

firstthings.com

"For a U.S. and especially a Christian audience, the meat of the book is “Chapter XI: Undercurrents of Crisis.” Wang sees an excessive American emphasis on individualism, money, and privacy as hollowing out the basic cell of society, the family, which in his words “has disintegrated in the United States.” Family breakdown, accelerated by the widespread availability of drugs and an ongoing sexual revolution, cripples the culture’s attitudes toward children and the elderly. It also feeds the anarchic nature of teen life. This, Wang argues, is compounded by a U.S. standard of high school education that’s “surprisingly poor.” And it’s made worse by an overall education system that fuels ignorance “about the classic works of Western history” and “traditional Western values,” while failing to produce qualified people and thus handicapping the nation’s future. "

ViaCrucis · Feb 5, 2025

Stephen3141 said:
From an article from the magazine, First Things, on a Chinese evaluation of
the American educational system...

China, DeepSeek, and American Complacency - First Things

History is a heartless teacher. Three hundred years before Christ, Carthage was a prosperous commercial empire dominating the Mediterranean, sustained and protected by the world’s most powerful navy. Rome...

firstthings.com

"For a U.S. and especially a Christian audience, the meat of the book is “Chapter XI: Undercurrents of Crisis.” Wang sees an excessive American emphasis on individualism, money, and privacy as hollowing out the basic cell of society, the family, which in his words “has disintegrated in the United States.” Family breakdown, accelerated by the widespread availability of drugs and an ongoing sexual revolution, cripples the culture’s attitudes toward children and the elderly. It also feeds the anarchic nature of teen life. This, Wang argues, is compounded by a U.S. standard of high school education that’s “surprisingly poor.” And it’s made worse by an overall education system that fuels ignorance “about the classic works of Western history” and “traditional Western values,” while failing to produce qualified people and thus handicapping the nation’s future. "

I'm not saying I don't, at least in part, or at least superficially, recognize some of these criticisms as valid.

I am saying that I'm not sure a criticism, from the perspective of the modern Chinese State, should be taken entirely seriously.
Years ago I had a conversation with an obvious Chinese shill, trying to argue that China is more prosperous because of the rule of the CCP, criticizing America for its capitalistic degeneracy, and the like. The problem wasn't the criticism of American capitalism (something that should be criticized), or other criticisms of problems in America; but the idea that the Chinese people flourish under the CCP as opposed to American democracy was a completely stupid and false thing.

For one, the idea that China isn't capitalist is silly. China is one of the most capitalistic societies in the world, just because it calls itself communist, just because the State functions in an authoritarian and autocratic way doesn't change the fact that capital is in the hands of the very few, where the ordinary people experience exploitative labor, with massive wealth disparity on the basis of not just class, but also ethnicity, with China having a Han-centric and Han-supremacist way of doing things, to the exclusion and harm to non-Han Chinese citizens. Most infamous is China's mistreatment of the Uyghur people, with rounding hundreds, thousands, of people on the basis of ethnicity and religion.

China simply isn't in a position, as an autocratic state that exploits, discriminates, and brutalizes its own population to be a valid critic of America's shortcomings. And I am inherently suspicious of Chinese shills and CCP apologists who, essentially, function as cultural evangelists on behalf of the CCP. For the same reason I don't accept Russia as having any validity when it criticizes the West--Putin's Russia is an autocratic, brutal, authoritarian regime that denies human dignity.

There are very valid criticisms of the US. Both from within, and also outside, the US. I am not America's cheerleader, but I do think that valid criticism must originate from a place of honesty.

Perhaps all of this was an over-reaction. However,

"Wang Huning (Chinese: 王沪宁; pinyin: Wáng Hùníng; born 6 October 1955) is a Chinese politician and one of the top leaders of the Chinese Communist Party (CCP). He is currently the chairman of the Chinese People's Political Consultative Conference (CPPCC). He has been a leading ideologist in the country since the 1980s. He has been a member of the CCP's Politburo Standing Committee, China's top decision-making body since 2017, and has been its fourth-ranking member since 2022." - Wang Huning - Wikipedia

-CryptoLutheran

mindlight · Feb 6, 2025

Stephen3141 said:
https://www.npr.org/2025/02/03/nx-s1-5282233/trump-to-make-big-cuts-to-education-department

A lot of members of the Democratic Party and Republican Party think that the
government is spending TOO MUCH on education. There are pointers to the
public surveys, in the article.

This is a curious situation. There have been many articles asserting (and I believe it)
that the level of language skills and math skills are far too low among K8 and K12
students. And, this is not caused by the pandemic. They were low, before the
pandemic.

I think that there is a general agreement among American citizens, that we are
throwing money at K12 education, and IT IS NOT WORKING.

The obvious topic, is how to fix the American K12 educational system. Generally,
students of wealthy parents do much better in language and math skills, than
students of poor parents.

But studies and surveys seem to be unable to find clear factors that lead to better
educational achievement. Specifically, what are the characteristics of a home culture,
that make it difficult for children in that home culture to do well in school? Instead of
pointing out the big category of "poverty", I would like to see characteristics of home
culture that lead to poverty. And I would like to see the Department of Education to
start to deal with those (controversial) characteristics.

Is there a crisis and what is its nature?

In international league tables, America is mediocre overall but that hides deep disparities between elite education and bog-standard homeschooled and public students.

Fast Facts: International comparisons of achievement (1)

The NCES Fast Facts Tool provides quick answers to many education questions (National Center for Education Statistics). Get answers on Early Childhood Education, Elementary and Secondary Education and Higher Education here.

nces.ed.gov

Maybe the best comparisons should be with other English-speaking countries like Canada, the UK, and Australia who all significantly outperform the USA. Also developed Western Europe is better.

These countries all have significant inclusion agendas. Maybe on the one hand this makes students more open-minded to learning new things and on the other hand, introduces a tendency to immorality that is not reflected in the education standard statistics. So one major question is if there is a trade-off between immorality and high achievement. If you adopt a close-minded approach you might live a purer life but you won't be as smart or knowledgeable if you do.

From a Christian point of view, it seems we should be striving for both excellence and purity. For many Americans who are lucky enough to have well-educated parents, homeschooling might be the better option. For rich kids, the elite private schools are probably the best. But until there is a systematic and wise approach to public schooling this will continue to be a drag on the numbers as will homeschooled kids with inadequate parental teachers.

Stephen3141 · Feb 6, 2025

mindlight said:
Is there a crisis and what is its nature?

In international league tables, America is mediocre overall but that hides deep disparities between elite education and bog-standard homeschooled and public students.

Fast Facts: International comparisons of achievement (1)

The NCES Fast Facts Tool provides quick answers to many education questions (National Center for Education Statistics). Get answers on Early Childhood Education, Elementary and Secondary Education and Higher Education here.

nces.ed.gov

Maybe the best comparisons should be with other English-speaking countries like Canada, the UK, and Australia who all significantly outperform the USA. Also developed Western Europe is better.

These countries all have significant inclusion agendas. Maybe on the one hand this makes students more open-minded to learning new things and on the other hand, introduces a tendency to immorality that is not reflected in the education standard statistics. So one major question is if there is a trade-off between immorality and high achievement. If you adopt a close-minded approach you might live a purer life but you won't be as smart or knowledgeable if you do.

From a Christian point of view, it seems we should be striving for both excellence and purity. For many Americans who are lucky enough to have well-educated parents, homeschooling might be the better option. For rich kids, the elite private schools are probably the best. But until there is a systematic and wise approach to public schooling this will continue to be a drag on the numbers as will homeschooled kids with inadequate parental teachers.

I agree, on a number of points you make.

I have a few comments...

1 Historically, education, and Christian education, included BOTH teaching about
morality-ethics, AND teaching about other (technical) subjects. ANY educational
curriculum that ignores either, is dysfunctional. (I disagree with parents who think
that morality is a "religious" topic, and should not be taught in K12.)

2 The Dept of Education does not decide WHAT states teach in their K12 schools.
I have no problem with tax monies funding private K12 schools, BUT there had
better be strong educational STANDARDS in the private schools. And this,
unfortunately, is a state thing. Statistics, cover ALL of America. But a state's
curriculum is set by the state.

3 If private Christian schools teach technical subjects, aimed at getting good
scores on the standardized college entrance exams, THEN they will be preparing
students for financial success in the American economy. AND, they can also
teach Christian morality-ethics, and a Christian worldview.

I would like to see statistical surveys of student achievement, over the private
schooling options, both Christian and non-Christian. This could sort out problems
with the private schooling options.

Diamond72 · Feb 7, 2025

Stephen3141 said:
I think that there is a general agreement among American citizens, that we are
throwing money at K12 education, and IT IS NOT WORKING.

My son was taking classes at four different colleges when he was in High School. He was given up to $30,000 a year. He had friends that were getting $90,000 scholarships to the best universities. He wanted to take a class on 3D printers. I talked to the High School and they added the class. Of course they spent their time setting up the printer and did not get much done on it, but at least he learned something about it.

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