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God dealt with sin by sending his own Son in a body as physical as any sinful body; what does it mean?

Joseph G

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From what book is this?
Specifically, I believe he is referring to this translation:

The CTS New Catholic Bible (NCB) is a Catholic English translation of the Bible published by Catholic Truth Society (CTS). It is a revised version of the New Jerusalem Bible.
 
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Joseph G

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Okay, let's pay it that way then. "in a body as physical as any sinful body" says that the body is physical, it does not say it is sinful.
Fair enough. You're translation is new to me and a bit confusing. The way the verse is phrased kinda opens the door to the idea that it is promoting Gnosticism.
 
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Xeno.of.athens

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Xeno.of.athens

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Fair enough. You're translation is new to me and a bit confusing. The way the verse is phrased kinda opens the door to the idea that it is promoting Gnosticism.
I am not responsible for how you interpret a verse.
 
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D. LIFE IN THE SPIRIT

The life of the Spirit

8:1 The reason, therefore, why those who are in Christ Jesus are not condemned, 2 is that the law of the spirit of life in Christ Jesus has set you free from the law of sin and death. 3 God has done what the Law, because of our unspiritual nature, was unable to do.
The law was not given for salvation, for salvation has always been by faith (Ge 15:5-6, Ro 4:1-7)).

The law was given to reveal sin (Ro 3:20).
God dealt with sin by sending his own Son in a body as physical as any sinful body, and in that body God condemned sin. 4 He did this in order that the Law's just demands might be satisfied in us, who behave not as our unspiritual nature but as the spirit dictates. 5 The unspiritual are interested only in what is unspiritual, but the spiritual are interested in spiritual things. 6 It is death to limit oneself to what is unspiritual; life and peace can only come with concern for the spiritual. 7 That is because to limit oneself only to what is unspiritual is to be at enmity with God: such a limitation never could and never does submit to God's law. 8 People who are interested only in unspiritual things can never be pleasing to God. 9 Your interests, however, are not in the unspiritual, but in the spiritual, since the Spirit of God has made his home in you. In fact, unless you possessed the Spirit of God you would not belong to him. 10 Though your body may be dead it is because of sin, but if Christ is in you then your spirit is life itself because you have been justified; 11 and if the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead is living in you, then he who raised Jesus from the dead will give life to your own mortal bodies through his Spirit living in you.

12 So then, my brothers, there is no necessity for us to obey our unspiritual selves or to live unspiritual lives. 13 If you do live in that way, you are doomed to die; but if by the Spirit you put an end to the misdeeds of the body you will live.

Children of God

14 Everyone moved by the Spirit is a son of God. 15 The spirit you received is not the spirit of slaves bringing fear into your lives again; it is the spirit of sons, and it makes us cry out, 'Abba, Father!' 16 The Spirit himself and our spirit bear united witness that we are children of God. 17 And if we are children we are heirs as well: heirs of God and coheirs with Christ, sharing his sufferings so as to share his glory.

Glory as our destiny

18 I think that what we suffer in this life can never be compared to the glory, as yet unrevealed, which is waiting for us. 19 The whole creation is eagerly waiting for God to reveal his sons. 20 It was not for any fault on the part of creation that it was made unable to attain its purpose, it was made so by God; but creation still retains the hope 21 of being freed, like us, from its slavery to decadence, to enjoy the same freedom and glory as the children of God. 22 From the beginning till now the entire creation, as we know, has been groaning in one great act of giving birth; 23 and not only creation, but all of us who possess the first-fruits of the Spirit, we too groan inwardly as we wait for our bodies to be set free. 24 For we must be content to hope that we shall be saved - our salvation is not in sight, we should not have to be hoping for it if it were - but, as I say, we must hope to be saved since we are not saved yet - it is something we must wait for with patience. 26 The Spirit too comes to help us in our weakness. For when we cannot choose words in order to pray properly, the Spirit himself expresses our plea in a way that could never be put into words, 27 and God who knows everything in our hearts knows perfectly well what he means, and that the pleas of the saints expressed by the Spirit are according to the mind of God.

God has called us to share his glory

28 We know that by turning everything to their good God co-operates with all those who love him, with all those that he has called accordi to his purpose. 29 They are the ones he chose specially long ago and intended to become true images of his Son, so that his Son might be the eldest of many brothers. 30 He called those he intended for this; those he called he justified, and with those he justified he shared his glory.

A hymn to God's love

31 After saying this, what can we add? With God on our side who can be against us? 32 Since God did not spare his own Son, but gave him up to benefit us all, we may be certain, after such a gift, that he will not refuse anything he can give. 33 Could anyone accuse those that God has chosen? When God acquits, 34 could anyone condemn? Could Christ Jesus? No! He not only died for us—he rose from the dead, and there at God's right hand he stands and pleads for us.

35 Nothing therefore can come between us and the love of Christ, even if we are troubled or worried, or being persecuted, or lacking food or clothes, or being threatened or even attacked. 36 As scripture promised: For your sake we are being massacred daily, and reckoned as sheep for the slaughter. 37 These are the trials through which we triumph, by the power of him who loved us.

38 For I am certain of this: neither death nor life, no angel, no prince, nothing that exists, nothing still to come, not any power, 39 or height or depth, nor any created thing, can ever come between us and the love of God made visible in Christ Jesus our Lord.
 
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The Liturgist

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What do you think that says?

I believe the text is one of those Scriptural sources for the Christian doctrine that Jesus Christ is fully man and fully God, in His incarnation uniting our humanity with his deity in one person and one hypostasis without change, confusion, separation or division (the actual Monophysites led by Eutyches believed there was change and confusion, and Nestorius taught that there was a separation or division between the human Jesus and the divine Logos, so in effect they were at least two hypostases, but really two persons united by a common will, which is really horrible Christology to the extent of being crypto-Adoptionistic.
 
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you dodged the bullet, did not answer I know thw answer but you do not want to commit? what law was paul talking about?

God's Law. Especially the Law as revealed to Moses at Mt. Horeb.

-CryptoLutheran
 
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Last I checked, the Decalogue was God's Law, so yes.

The Decalogue can't save us.

-CryptoLutheran
My last entry here about the Law;

In the Gospel of Matthew, Jesus asserts with profound clarity, "Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill. For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled" (Matthew 5:17-18, NKJV). This declaration is both an affirmation and a correction, as it sets the record straight regarding the relationship between His mission and the Mosaic Law. Jesus does not come to abolish or invalidate the Law; rather, He comes to complete it, to bring to its fullest expression the divine intent behind it. The law, with all its commandments and ordinances, is not transient nor dispensable, but rather enduring and eternally valid, fulfilling its ultimate purpose in Christ.

This statement points to the enduring nature of God’s moral law and underscores its unalterable character. The Law, as the foundation of divine revelation, serves as the archetype of God’s righteous standard, yet it finds its telos in Jesus, who fulfills its deepest meaning. Far from being a mere external code of conduct, the Law anticipates the perfection of obedience that is only found in Christ. The perfection of the Law is not to be found in its external observance alone, but in its consummation in the person of Jesus Christ, who alone lived it out in its entirety.

Indeed, Jesus’ perfect adherence to the Law stands as the singular fulfillment of the righteous demands of God. He is the embodiment of holiness, and in Him, no blemish or transgression was ever found. The Scriptures attest that "He committed no sin, nor was deceit found in His mouth" (1 Peter 2:22, NKJV). This sinless life of Christ, unmarred by any transgression of the Law, demonstrates His unique role as the Lamb of God, whose sacrifice is the fulfillment of all that the Law and the Prophets pointed toward. Christ’s sinlessness is not merely an abstract theological point, but the very ground of our salvation. In His flawless obedience, He satisfied the righteous requirements of the Law, offering Himself as the spotless atonement for sin.

Furthermore, Jesus’ life reveals the full embodiment of the Law’s ethical and spiritual demands. While the Law was often reduced to mere ritual observance by the religious leaders of His day, Jesus reveals that its true essence lies in love—love for God and for one’s neighbor (cf. Matthew 22:37-40). In so doing, He renders the Law’s external requirements subordinate to its internal transformation. The Pharisees and scribes were known for their rigorous adherence to the letter of the Law, but Jesus exposes the inadequacy of such an approach when divorced from its spirit.

The task of the believer, then, is not simply to adhere to the Law as it was given in the Old Covenant, but to follow Christ as He has shown us the perfect way. In the New Covenant, the call to discipleship is a call to follow the One who perfectly fulfilled the Law and exemplified its true meaning. "If anyone desires to come after Me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow Me" (Matthew 16:24, NKJV). In following Jesus, the believer is called to not only imitate His actions but to participate in the very life that He embodies—life in perfect obedience to the Father. To walk in the way of Jesus is to live a life of radical submission to the will of God, as He did, and to allow His indwelling Spirit to enable us to live out the righteous demands of the Law, now written not on tablets of stone but on hearts of flesh.

It is incumbent upon the Christian, therefore, to follow Christ not as a mere teacher or moral guide, but as the fulfillment of the Law and the model of perfect obedience. In so doing, the believer enters into the eternal purpose of God, receiving both forgiveness and transformation, living the life that Christ lived in a fallen world, empowered by the same grace that upheld Him. As Christ is the perfect fulfillment of the Law, so too should His followers seek, by grace, to fulfill His commandments—not by striving in their own strength, but by living in the grace and power of the One who fulfilled it on their behalf.
 
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Joseph G

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@Xeno.of.athens @Joseph G

Part two;

In Romans 8:1-3, Paul writes, “There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus, who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit. For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made me free from the law of sin and death. For what the law could not do in that it was weak through the flesh, God did by sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, on account of sin; He condemned sin in the flesh” (NKJV). Here, Paul makes a deliberate point to stress the “likeness of sinful flesh” in which Christ came. While this is often interpreted as a theological statement affirming Christ’s full humanity, there is a possibility that Paul, in his rhetorical strategy, purposefully diminishes Christ's divine nature by emphasizing the likeness to sinful flesh rather than an explicit declaration of Christ’s true divine nature.

The language Paul employs in this passage, especially the “likeness of sinful flesh”, could be understood as an intentional move to downplay the divinity of Christ. In contrast to the Johannine portrayal of Christ as the pre-existent Logos (John 1:1) or the Pauline assertion of Christ’s eternal nature in passages like Colossians 1:16-17, Paul here seems to focus more on Christ’s humanity, describing Him as coming “in the likeness of sinful flesh”, which is a term that could be interpreted as limiting the scope of Christ’s incarnation to a mere human appearance rather than an ontologically full divine incarnation. In this sense, one might argue that Paul’s language in Romans 8 subtly redirects attention away from the transcendent divinity of Christ, positioning Him more as a representative of humanity, sharing in their weaknesses, rather than as the eternal Son of God who assumes human form.

The term “likeness” itself in Greek (ὁμοίωμα, homoíōma) suggests a semblance or appearance, rather than a full identity, which could be seen as Paul strategically avoiding an overt declaration of the divine nature of Christ. By using this language, Paul might be emphasizing Christ’s solidarity with humanity in their fallen condition, rather than declaring the pre-existent divine nature that John and other early Christian writings would attribute to Him.

This de-emphasis on the divine could be understood as part of Paul’s broader theological framework, which often privileges the ethical and soteriological dimensions of Christ's work over His ontological nature. Throughout his letters, Paul is more concerned with how Christ’s life, death, and resurrection affect believers’ lives than with asserting a systematic doctrine of Christ's divinity. In the Philippians 2:7 passage, where Paul writes, “but made Himself of no reputation, taking the form of a bondservant, and coming in the likeness of men” (NKJV), he again emphasizes Christ’s humility and self-emptying (Greek: kenosis). This passage has traditionally been used to emphasize Christ’s humanity, but one might argue that it also subtly obscures the divine prerogative Christ gave up in His incarnation. By focusing on the "form of a bondservant" and "likeness of men," Paul underscores Christ's self-humiliation without explicitly elaborating on the eternal nature of the Word made flesh, as John does in his prologue (John 1:14).

Moreover, when we turn to the Johannine epistles, particularly 1 John 4:2-3, where John states, “By this you know the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesses that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is of God, and every spirit that does not confess that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is not of God" (NKJV), we see a clear polemic against Docetism, which denied Christ's full humanity. However, it is important to consider that while John is asserting the full humanity of Christ, his focus is on confessing Christ in the flesh as a necessary criterion for orthodoxy, without necessarily emphasizing His divine nature in the same manner that Paul or the Gospel of John (with its high Christology) does. John’s insistence on the flesh of Jesus may be seen as a counterpoint to certain heresies but could also be interpreted as a limitation in the understanding of Christ’s full divine status, focusing more on the need for the historical and real embodiment of Christ rather than His eternal divinity.

In this way, one might argue that both Paul’s and John’s writings, while affirming the humanity of Christ and refuting Docetism, do so at the expense of fully articulating the deity of Christ. Paul, especially in passages like Romans 8 and Philippians 2, tends to emphasize the humility, humanity, and servanthood of Christ, which could be viewed as intentionally diminishing the deity of Christ in favor of highlighting His identification with sinful humanity. Such a reading would suggest that Paul, by downplaying the explicit declarations of Christ’s divine essence, was focusing more on His role as the suffering servant and the ideal human figure who brings salvation, rather than emphasizing His pre-existent and divine status as the eternal Word made flesh.

Thus, if we follow this line of thinking, we can see a subtle but significant theological shift in early Christian writings, where the humanity of Christ is prioritized for pastoral or theological purposes, sometimes at the expense of His explicit divine nature. For Paul, the key point may not be to fully articulate a high Christology but to focus on the soteriological effect of Christ’s life, death, and resurrection in relation to the believer's transformation, while John’s emphasis on confessing Christ in the flesh remains foundational to understanding the real, tangible reality of the incarnation—without necessarily offering a full ontological reflection on the divinity of the person who came in that flesh.

I will comment no further on this thread.

Blessings.
Sorry JFF, but I don't feel particularly inclined to continue to engage until you are willing to give a direct response to my question. I'll repeat for the 3rd time and leave you to your choice...

So again, how do you conclude which Scriptures are divinely inspired and which are not? By Whose authority?

God bless.
 
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FreeinChrist

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ADVISOR HAT


This thread had a clean up. As a reminder, the Statement of Purpose for General Theology includes:


  • NT writers' teachings do not contradict each other or the teachings of Christ. (2 Peter 3:15,16)
  • It is considered off topic to challenge Paul's place as an Apostle.


Please keep the Statement of Purpose in mind when posting.
 
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My last entry here about the Law;

In the Gospel of Matthew, Jesus asserts with profound clarity, "Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill. For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled" (Matthew 5:17-18, NKJV). This declaration is both an affirmation and a correction, as it sets the record straight regarding the relationship between His mission and the Mosaic Law. Jesus does not come to abolish or invalidate the Law; rather, He comes to complete it, to bring to its fullest expression the divine intent behind it. The law, with all its commandments and ordinances, is not transient nor dispensable, but rather enduring and eternally valid, fulfilling its ultimate purpose in Christ.

This statement points to the enduring nature of God’s moral law and underscores its unalterable character. The Law, as the foundation of divine revelation, serves as the archetype of God’s righteous standard, yet it finds its telos in Jesus, who fulfills its deepest meaning. Far from being a mere external code of conduct, the Law anticipates the perfection of obedience that is only found in Christ. The perfection of the Law is not to be found in its external observance alone, but in its consummation in the person of Jesus Christ, who alone lived it out in its entirety.

Indeed, Jesus’ perfect adherence to the Law stands as the singular fulfillment of the righteous demands of God. He is the embodiment of holiness, and in Him, no blemish or transgression was ever found. The Scriptures attest that "He committed no sin, nor was deceit found in His mouth" (1 Peter 2:22, NKJV). This sinless life of Christ, unmarred by any transgression of the Law, demonstrates His unique role as the Lamb of God, whose sacrifice is the fulfillment of all that the Law and the Prophets pointed toward. Christ’s sinlessness is not merely an abstract theological point, but the very ground of our salvation. In His flawless obedience, He satisfied the righteous requirements of the Law, offering Himself as the spotless atonement for sin.

Furthermore, Jesus’ life reveals the full embodiment of the Law’s ethical and spiritual demands. While the Law was often reduced to mere ritual observance by the religious leaders of His day, Jesus reveals that its true essence lies in love—love for God and for one’s neighbor (cf. Matthew 22:37-40). In so doing, He renders the Law’s external requirements subordinate to its internal transformation. The Pharisees and scribes were known for their rigorous adherence to the letter of the Law, but Jesus exposes the inadequacy of such an approach when divorced from its spirit.

The task of the believer, then, is not simply to adhere to the Law as it was given in the Old Covenant, but to follow Christ as He has shown us the perfect way. In the New Covenant, the call to discipleship is a call to follow the One who perfectly fulfilled the Law and exemplified its true meaning. "If anyone desires to come after Me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow Me" (Matthew 16:24, NKJV). In following Jesus, the believer is called to not only imitate His actions but to participate in the very life that He embodies—life in perfect obedience to the Father. To walk in the way of Jesus is to live a life of radical submission to the will of God, as He did, and to allow His indwelling Spirit to enable us to live out the righteous demands of the Law, now written not on tablets of stone but on hearts of flesh.

It is incumbent upon the Christian, therefore, to follow Christ not as a mere teacher or moral guide, but as the fulfillment of the Law and the model of perfect obedience. In so doing, the believer enters into the eternal purpose of God, receiving both forgiveness and transformation, living the life that Christ lived in a fallen world, empowered by the same grace that upheld Him. As Christ is the perfect fulfillment of the Law, so too should His followers seek, by grace, to fulfill His commandments—not by striving in their own strength, but by living in the grace and power of the One who fulfilled it on their behalf.

What happens when you, in your sin, behold God's Law? Does it make you righteous? Can you obey God?

You read the commandment to have no other god before or other than Him. Do you worship God perfectly, in all truth? Or do you fail, sin, and fall short?

You read the commandment to not murder, Jesus says to hold anger in our hearts toward another is the same as murder. Do you always seek your neighbor's good? Do you ever hold a grudge, withhold forgiveness, act in a way that is less-than merciful?

You read the commandment to not bear false witness against your neighbor. Have you always been a faithful witness about others? Have you ever held to wrong opinions, believed in rumors, or participated in gossip about others? Have you ever held an untrue view about someone, whether to yourself, or toward others? Have you put your neighbor's good name to shame through your thoughts, words, and actions; whether intentionally or unintentionally? Whether through action or unaction?

You read the commandment to not envy, have you always rejoiced when others around you prosper, when your co-worker gets that raise or promotion, or when someone falls in love and gets married and is blessed with children; when the people around you have good things happen to them, do you rejoice in the good they have received always and in every way--or have you held dark thoughts, grumbling about what you lack, believing you more deserving than others. Do you then speak ill of your neighbor, or hold awful opinions about them even if you never voice them? Has such envy ever produced in you an unfaithful witness, or perhaps created in you anger toward another--making you, as Jesus defined it, a murderer in your own heart?

We could go through all of the 10 Commandments in this way. And along every stop along the way we'll find that not only have you and I failed, we've failed in the most spectacularly way. We don't just fail, we operate in such a way as to be in total opposition to the things of God.

We don't just fail to be righteous, our entire inclination is bent toward the antithesis of God's way.

The question, therefore, isn't whether the Law remains. Yes, God's commandments are God's commandments, He says to not worship other gods, or to murder, or to bear false witness, or to envy, or to commit adultery, etc. The question is can you, sinner that you are, be righteous by trying to obey God's commandments.

Will you ever be any less a sinner by trying to obey the commandments? Can you do this, through sheer free will determination and personal grit?

Or are you a spectacular failure of a human being. Like everyone else. Like Adam, like me, like all near-8 billion of us alive right now all contributing day by day to the exploitation of one another and God's world?

-CryptoLutheran
 
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