All right, how was it?

Susan, I am a Viet-Nam vet, and we were taught in basic training to shout: "kill, kill!" during our combat training. During my 14 months in Nam, I saw some of the GIs wearing necklaces of ears on a string that they had cut off their kills. I agree with you about Iraq's lack of involvement with 9/11. the news on TV is NOT factual! I have had dealings with news people, and they turn things around to suit themselves(or someone else???)
War: to make old rich men richer at the expense of poor young men's(& now women's) blood. That's the facts.

I am a Christian... It is my belief that you must live each day to its fullest and the best of your abilities. If you do... then tomorrow will take care of itself... for tomorrow is in God's hands.

We only live in today.

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True, but we can PREPARE for tomorrow, and that's something we've failed in in the past...... pre-Taliban Afganistan would be a good example, as would Guatemala, of some of our attempts at regime change that were woefully shortsighted.

-Elias

When was it MORAL for the terrorists to attack us?

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No, but they were Afghani. Not Iraqi.

-Elias

Today at 05:48 PM Susan said this in Post #11

OK, then I will clarify my opinion.

I believe that starting armed conflict for questionable reasons and justifying it after the fact is morally questionable. Defending yourself against someone who is already attacking is one thing, but preemptive warfare is on rather shaky ground morally.

Did that help?

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This thread turned into a debate? Hmph. I'll rehash something here that I thought was note worthy. Maybe it will explain motivational reasons for you since you don't remember (or lived during) some of the past events to what lead us here.

Peace




 http://www.christianforums.com/threads/40709.html

31st March 2003 at 06:20 PM loribee59 said this in Post #1

Thought this might interest you. No matter how you feel about what's going on today, you have to agree to the facts stated here. Most of us haven't even thought about 'connecting the dots' of events over the past 23 years, but this doesn't leave any room for doubt about what has been happening...

"This is what every American should understand about what has REALLY been going on--well said..." (U.S. Navy Capt. Ouimette is the XO of NAS, Pensacola. Here is a copy of a speech he gave earlier this year. A wonderful and accurate account of why we are in trouble today...)

America WAKE UP!

That's what we think we heard on the 11th of September 2001 and maybe it was, but I think it should have been "Get Out of Bed!"

In fact, I think the alarm clock has been buzzing since 1979 and we have continued to hit the snooze button and roll over for a few more minutes of peaceful sleep since then.

It was a cool fall day in November 1979 in a country going through a religious and political upheaval when a group of Iranian students attacked and seized the American Embassy in Tehran. This seizure was an outright attack on American soil; it was an attack that held the world's most powerful country hostage and paralyzed a Presidency.

The attack on this sovereign US embassy set the stage for the events to follow for the next 23 years.

America was still reeling from the aftermath of the Viet Nam experience and had a serious threat from the Soviet Union when then-President Carter had to do something. He chose to conduct a clandestine raid in the desert.

The ill-fated mission ended in ruin, but stood as a symbol of America's inability to deal with terrorism. America's military had been decimated and downsized/right-sized since the end of the Viet Nam war.

A poorly trained, poorly equipped and poorly organized military was called on to execute a complex mission that was doomed from the start.

Shortly after the Tehran experience, Americans began to be kidnapped and killed throughout the Middle East. America could do little to protect her citizens living and working abroad. The attacks against US soil continued.

In April of 1983 a large vehicle packed with high explosives was driven into the US Embassy compound in Beirut. When it exploded, it killed 63 people.

The alarm went off again and America hit the Snooze Button once more...

Then, just six short months later, a large truck heavily laded down with over 2500 pounds of TNT smashed through the main gate of the US Marine Corps headquarters in Beirut. 241 US servicemen were killed.

America mourned her dead and hit the Snooze Button once more... Two months later in December 1983, another truck loaded with explosives is driven into the US Embassy in Kuwait, and America continues her slumber...

The following year, in September 1984, another van was driven into the gates of the US Embassy in Beirut and America slept...

Soon the terrorism spread to Europe.

In April 1985 a bomb explodes in a restaurant frequented by US soldiers in Madrid.

Then in August, a Volkswagen loaded with explosives is driven into the main gate of the US Air Force Base at Rhein-Main, 22 are killed and the Snooze Alarm is buzzing louder and louder as US soil is continually attacked...

Fifty-nine days later a cruise ship, the Achilles' Lauro, is hijacked and we watched as an American in a wheelchair is singled out of the passenger list and executed.

The terrorists then shifted their tactics to bombing civilian airliners when they bombed TWA Flight 840 in April of 1986--that killed 4; and the most tragic bombing, Pan Am Flight 103 over Lockerbie, Scotland in 1988, killed 259.

America wants to treat these terrorist acts as crimes; in fact we are still trying to bring these people to trial. These are acts of war!

Europe...the Wake Up alarm is louder and louder...

The terrorists decide to bring the fight to America.

In January 1993, two CIA agents are shot and killed as they enter CIA headquarters in Langley, Virginia. The following month, February 1993, a group of terrorists are arrested after a rented van packed with explosives
is driven into the underground parking garage of the World Trade Center in New York City. Six people are killed and over 1000 are injured.

Still, this is a crime and not an act of war? The Snooze alarm is depressed again...

Then in November 1995, a car bomb explodes at a US military complex in Riyadh, Saudi Arabia killing seven service men and women. A few months later, in June of 1996, another truck bomb explodes only 35 yards from the US military compound in Dhahran, Saudi Arabia. It destroys the Khobar Towers, a US Air Force barracks, killing 19 and injuring over 500.

The terrorists are getting braver and smarter as they see that America does not respond decisively. They move to coordinate their attacks in a simultaneous attack on two US embassies in Kenya and Tanzania. These attacks were planned with precision--they kill 224.

America responds with cruise missile attacks and goes back to sleep... The USS Cole was docked in the port of Aden, Yemen for refueling on 12 October 2000, when a small craft pulled along side the ship and exploded, killing 17 US Navy Sailors. Attacking a US War Ship is an act of war, but we sent the FBI to investigate the crime and went back to sleep...

And, of course, you know the events of 11 September 2001. Most Americans think this was the first attack against US soil or done in America. How wrong they are! America has been under constant attack since 1979 and we chose to hit the snooze alarm and roll over and go back to sleep...

In the news lately we have seen lots of finger pointing from every high official in government over what they 'knew' and what they 'didn't know'. But if you've read the papers and paid a little attention I think you can see exactly what they knew. You don't have to be in the FBI or CIA, or on the National Security Council, to see the pattern that has been developing since 1979. The President is right-on when he says we are engaged in a war.

I think we have been in a war for the past 23 years, and it will continue until we, as a people, decide that 'enough is enough'.

America has to "Get out of Bed" and act decisively now! America has changed forever.

We have to be ready to pay the price and make the sacrifice to ensure our way of life continues. We cannot afford to hit the Snooze Button again and roll over and go back to sleep. We have to make the terrorists know that, in the words of Admiral Yamamoto after the attack on Pearl Harbor, that all they have done is to awaken a sleeping giant."

Thank you very much.

Dan Ouimette Pensacola
19 Feb 2003

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No, but they were Afghani. Not Iraqi.

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Afghani?
19
15 from Saudi Arabia
4 from Egypt

Afghani?

*mod hat on*

this thread is about finding out the experiences of those who've served in the military, NOT, on the issue of anti-war vs for war. Please get back to the original topic, else this thread will be locked.

*mod hat off*

Yesterday at 07:48 PM Susan said this in Post #11

OK, then I will clarify my opinion.

I believe that starting armed conflict for questionable reasons and justifying it after the fact is morally questionable. Defending yourself against someone who is already attacking is one thing, but preemptive warfare is on rather shaky ground morally.

Did that help?

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Hitler never attacked us.  Do you think it was a bad idea to go in and get rid of him?  Just because so many people assigned questionable reasons to this war doesn't mean it isnt working for the greater good.  IMO

I served in the USARMY for 5 years as a Flight Operations Specialist (Dispatcher). My basic training experience was basically the same, except that I remember (its been 21 years since basic) the defend yourself and defend your buddy aspect being stressed very highly. We learned how to shoot a weapon because as a serviceman or woman you need to know that, (remember the female Jessica Lynch).

 My hubby is an Army Chaplain at Camp Patriot in Kuwait. As a Chaplain he is a non-combatant, but he used to be an infantry grunt. Those guys have a commoraderee that the other jobs in the Army will never have, because they literally depend on each other for their very lives. I am sure there are a few nutcases in the Army and other services, but to be honest, they try very hard to weed them out, and my hubby counsels those that are having difficulties, and they are not allowed to stay in the military.

Also, civilian employers don't usually do as well at finding the nutcases and weeding them out. Remember the Zerox incident in Hawaii, or even all the Postal Service employees that have gone postal so that now we have the term going postal to describe these that fall off the deep end.

 

 

Today at 12:23 AM HWS Jim said this in Post #21

Susan, I am a Viet-Nam vet, and we were taught in basic training to shout: "kill, kill!" during our combat training. During my 14 months in Nam, I saw some of the GIs wearing necklaces of ears on a string that they had cut off their kills. I agree with you about Iraq's lack of involvement with 9/11. the news on TV is NOT factual! I have had dealings with news people, and they turn things around to suit themselves(or someone else???)
War: to make old rich men richer at the expense of poor young men's(& now women's) blood. That's the facts.

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This post is inflamatory at best and offensive at the worst. Read my last post. During Vietnam, drug use was rampant as well. It was a draft military. The military has changed dramatically since Vietnam. The nutcases get weeded out. The combat training he is describing is bayonet training, and in hand to hand combat they need to have the adrenaline rush to be able to fight in that manner. In other words, he didn't explain himself real well, for the express purpose of painting a very negative image of the Marines. Remember toys for tots, when you think of Marines please.

This thread stinks.

People willingly lay their life on the line to protect us, and help the helpless, but instead of showering them with our praise and admiration... we ask them to prove themselves???

Isn't the freedom that we all enjoy proof enough?

Or do you think it came without a price?

Susan: War is ugly. War is never wanted. But is often times necessary to right grave wrongs.

Today at 05:01 AM Susan said this in Post #28

Thank you Blessed-one. I don't know what's wrong lately, everywhere I post, people start flaming.

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Hmm, it might be in your approach, the tone and words you use.  Just something to think about.

To answer the OP, I served 5 years in the US Navy as an Operations Specialist (Radar/Satellite/Communications). My specialty was Air Warfare and Computer Data Links. I was trained extensively in using Intel, Electronic Warfare, and Identification Friend or Foe to identify any and all aircraft flying within 200 miles of my ship, and then share that info with all ships in our immediate area through data links. We were well versed in engagement procedures, and had we the need to engage an aircraft to shoot it down, I would have been the one to make the call about which one to engage. Needless to say, there was a lot of stress. The parameters of engagement are extensive, and much of them classified, but the short story is; unless it was critically urgent, we would not engage without exhausting every other possibility. We were not a killing machine just looking for reasons to fire our missiles. Fortunately, I only had to engage one aircraft while in the Persian Gulf, and it turned away immediately, so we never fired in real-time combat.

I would easily have made the call. If it came down to an enemy pilot or my shipmates, the pilot wouldn't have received a second thought. My job was to protect my ship and the men and women onboard it. At sea, in battle, or in the air, their isn't "someone else" to do anything. Servicepeople are taught to do as much as they can for the good of everybody. They are taught to rely on each other and be reliable to others. It's a commitment to much more than just running around playing with cool toys.

Until you've been there, you have no clue. And, if you don't have the desire or ability to take the oath, don't question it. You won't ever understand.

Reminder:  Susan started this thread to hear from the Veterans, and those currently serving so maybe she can gain a better understanding of what it's all about.

For those of us who have never been enlisted, I think we should probably stay out of it. I for one cannot fully comprehend what it's like to be in the armed forces.

Thanks

Yesterday was one of the best days of my life.

It was the Seattle Mariners "Salute to armed forces day" at safeco field. So yesterday me and 39 other Coasties met at the stadium an hour and a half before the game.

There were members of every branch of the military, as well as their families there also. The miltary members who were taking part in the ceremony all met in a briefing room at the stadium.

As the Army-Navy band played "God Bless America" and "Grand old flag" at the opening of the ceremonies, we (the coasties) marched out from underneath the stands carrying the biggest national ensign I've ever seen. As we came out of the gate, all 32,000 people went to their feet and cheered for us. I don't think that there was a single military member there who didn't get goosebumps.

Our cadence was absolutely drowned out by the cheers and our order to halt was muffled, we were lucky that we hit our first mark so smoothly.

We marched out to the field and stood on our second mark and unfurled the 60x40 ft flag. The Army buglist played taps as we held the flag and the entire stadium went silent in memory of fallen heroes. They large screen was showing the faces of Admirals, Generals, marines, airmen, sailors, soldiers, and coasties, and you should have seen how many had tears in thier eyes.

Those are you heartless killers.

After taps and the moment of silence, the national anthem was sung by vocalists from various military branches. Then two Navy Prowlers flew over the stadium. The entire stadium rumbled and fell silent. We received the order to gather the flag and march back in, and once again couldn't hear the cadence over the cheering.

When we got back underneath the stands and continued marching to the locker room, our collective foot steps and cadence echoed off of the concrete walls. Those are two absolutely beautiful sounds. The order for mark time was called then halt. We all just kind of stood there for a minute, including the Mariners employees, trying to absorb what had just happened.

We had never fought in a war, we didn't deserve this honor, but those people in the stands trust us, and revere us simply because they know that everyone of us will give the ultimate sacrafice for their freedoms, and they were appreciative.

It was one fo the greatest nigths of my life, and bittersweet at the same time, because the people who really deserve that honor and privaledge are thousands of miles away right now, liberating people, in spite of unpopular world opinion, and getting shot at, and dieing, and fighting to keep everyone safe.

Susan, apparently, you just don't get it.

I never had the honor of serving in the armed forces and would not presume to speak on behalf of anyone who did, but several members of my family have served and enough personal lore has circulated over the years that I can at least indicate what some of them went through (without fully understanding it, of course).

My father and both of his brothers were in the army in the late sixties. Dad served stateside at Fort Lewis while his older brother, Mike, served three tours in 'Nam and his younger brother, Tim, was in Korea. All three were infantry, and the uncles were both Rangers.

Uncle Tim didn't see any "hot" action while in Korea but still speaks of the constant tension he and others felt while holding the border.

Mike saw more d**n fighting than anyone probably should. He was heavily decorated for his actions in combat and sustained wounds on three or four occasions. Dad tells the story of one time, when Mike was on leave and recuperating between tours, that he was present at a conversation between Mike and Grandpa. Mike was gently asked if he wanted to talk about his combat experience and how many kills he had to his credit. I'm told that Mike indicated the living room they were sitting in and said, "Dad, stand 'em or stack 'em, you couldn't fit them into this room." I know that Mike never really discussed in depth his experiences in Viet Nam with those who weren't there (I certainly never had that talk with him), but it almost ate him alive. Apparently, he tried to hang himself in '76, unable to shed the combat dreams he experienced almost nightly. He and his wife eventually adopted a French/Vietnamese girl who came over with the refugees (she is now a happily married mother in Sioux Falls, SD). After his stint in 'Nam was finally over, he decided to make the military his career and was enrolled in the War College. He served until the early 'Nineties, when he retired a Colonel, having served several of those years in Singapore. Both of his sons are pursuing careers as officers.

My brother is currently in the Army with the 10th Mountain Division at Fort Drum, soon to transfer to California for Pathfinder training; he is an E-6. He fought in Afghanistan in both Anaconda and Tora Bora and apparently saw heavy action. The only two in the family he has spoken to (or is likely to speak to) about his experiences there are Dad and Uncle Mike, as it should be. Upon his return to New York, Ft. Drum had some kind of ceremony honoring the returnees. After the ceremony, a woman approached him and asked if he was Sgt. ******. He replied that he was. Turns out, she was the mother of a Private in his platoon who had been hit in the first day of fighting. Brian had carried her son, under fire, nearly a half-mile down the mountain to the nearest aid station before returning to his unit to resume the fight. She just wanted to thank him. I can hardly imagine the emotion of such a moment. My brother is now weighing his options. I don't think he originally intended for the Army to be his career, but he's already nearly halfway to a full retirement and is considering re-upping again.

I also had a step-brother who served as a medic in West Germany in the late 'Eighties. It was an uneventful stint as things go (though his stories of the Frankfurt red light district are priceless), but to this day he credits the military with instilling in him a sense of honor and discipline that he wouldn't have found elsewhere.

Members of my family are almost uniformly liberal in their political views, Mike being the token conservative of the bunch (though it should be said that his conservatism is decidedly moderate in tone), and we're not really a rah-rah flag waving bunch. But I can say without qualification that there isn't a one of them who regrets his service or wouldn't do it all again. There's a sense of service and honor that each shares that I, a life-long civilian, can't fully enter into, only admire from a distance.

Of course, war is a terrible thing and not all wars are wise or just. Sometimes, sadly, war is necessary, and I am grateful beyond words that there are men and women willing to lay their lives on the line at such times. To those of you who have served or are serving, thanks.

Today at 04:01 AM Susan said this in Post #28

Thank you Blessed-one. I don't know what's wrong lately, everywhere I post, people start flaming.

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As was said before, its the words you use. Making people justify themselves to you might be a reason as well. I seem to have missed the point at which God bestowed the power of judgeing your fellow humans on you. If I remember right, only God can pass judgement on us, not you. You come across as a very judgemental person, but then again thats just my opinion.

i would not judgemental i would say strongly opionated. i have a young neighbor like that and it can be very grating. she comes over as acting like she is an expert on every subject

Question: When is war necessary? Was it not necessary now? We see these Iraqi people running through the streets shouting, "Thank you Bush!" and holding signs saying, "US Human Shields: Go Home You Wankers!" These people have been given freedom.

1 John 3:16: "Hereby perceive we the love of God, because he laid down his life for us: and we ought to lay down our lives for the brethren. "

Does this not sound like a right and just war?