Is America becoming a police State?

Zaha Torte said:

Irrelevant to both the comment I was responding to and the point I made.

I never said that we should ignore bad cops because these cases are statistically insignificant - only that we should not start to assume that all or most police officers are racist or that they do not care about citizens or "plain people" - as mentioned by the CF member I was responding to - because the likelihood of encountering a bad cop is very low.

Your comment is not relevant to what I said unless you are arguing that all or most members of certain groups are terrorists or school shooters just because they are members of said group.

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Of course we have to assume that. Or, at leas, I have to assume it.

That's why I must be extremely careful in what I say, my tone of voice, and every movement I make...because I must assume this is a "bad" cop...or at least a jumpy one. If I didn't have to make that assumption, I wouldn't have to be careful of my own actions.

And we have to make that assumption because of the terrible outcome if this is one of those "statistically insignificant" occurrences.

Or do you deny that's necessary?

My black and Hispanic friends would answer differently than my white friends, based on personal experience.

RDKirk said:

Of course we have to assume that. Or, at leas, I have to assume it.

That's why I must be extremely careful in what I say, my tone of voice, and every movement I make...because I must assume this is a "bad" cop...or at least a jumpy one. If I didn't have to make that assumption, I wouldn't have to be careful of my own actions.

And we have to make that assumption because of the terrible outcome if this is one of those "statistically insignificant" occurrences.

Or do you deny that's necessary?

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To be clear - you are asking me if it is necessary to assume that any and all police officers you come into contact with are racist or at least do not care about citizens in order to avoid a "terrible outcome"?

If that is what you are asking me - then no - Hell no - not at all - there is no need for you to assume that.

That would be like me claiming that since I know black people commit a disproportionate amount of violent crime then I should assume and act as though all black people are likely to attack me.

Everyone who has an encounter with a police officer should be respectful - which means watching their tone of voice - and they should not provoke the officers - such as disobeying their orders or making threatening movements.

If you believe that you needing to control yourself when interacting with police officers means that they are racist or something - then you are the type of person that blames others for the poor decisions that they make.

What you should assume when interacting with the police is that they want to go home at the end of the day and that you are a complete mystery to them - they have no idea what to expect from you save what you present them.

So, if you act disrespectful and make threatening movements - they are going to believe that you do not value your safety, or the safety of others.

Police officers are trained to neutralize perceived threats - so don't be one.

Zaha Torte said:

To be clear - you are asking me if it is necessary to assume that any and all police officers you come into contact with are racist or at least do not care about citizens in order to avoid a "terrible outcome"?

If that is what you are asking me - then no - Hell no - not at all - there is no need for you to assume that.

That would be like me claiming that since I know black people commit a disproportionate amount of violent crime then I should assume and act as though all black people are likely to attack me.

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A great many white people do. Sometimes you don't even notice your unconscious fear reactions. And the fact that you even brought it up means you do, in fact, think it because you did, in fact, think it this time and you expect me to believe you never think it any other time.

Zaha Torte said:

Everyone who has an encounter with a police officer should be respectful - which means watching their tone of voice - and they should not provoke the officers - such as disobeying their orders or making threatening movements.

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What I think is threatening and what he thinks is threatening are two different things. I have to try to imagine what he thinks is threatening.

But why should I? He is the professional in the situation.

Zaha Torte said:

If you believe that you needing to control yourself when interacting with police officers means that they are racist or something - then you are the type of person that blames others for the poor decisions that they make.

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I didn't say "racist." I said "'bad' cop or just jumpy."

Zaha Torte said:

What you should assume when interacting with the police is that they want to go home at the end of the day and that you are a complete mystery to them - they have no idea what to expect from you save what you present them.

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I have no idea what to expect from the cop, either...and he's the one with the gun.

Zaha Torte said:

So, if you act disrespectful and make threatening movements - they are going to believe that you do not value your safety, or the safety of others.

Police officers are trained to neutralize perceived threats - so don't be one.

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How do I know what his perceptions are...unless I presume the worst? He's the one with the gun.

That is not "respect." When I was active duty and the general called me into his office for a simple chat (that did happen once or twice), I showed respect. Respect and "Be very careful with every word and movement if you want to survive this meeting this meeting" are not the same thing. We have to treat a police officer like a grizzly bear that wandered into the tent...and that should not be the case.

RDKirk said:

A great many white people do. Sometimes you don't even notice your unconscious fear reactions.

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And you believe that these white people are justified in assuming that?

RDKirk said:

And the fact that you even brought it up means you do, in fact, think it because you did, in fact, think it this time and you expect me to believe you never think it any other time.

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Or it was because the assumption that all police officers are racist against black people is the topic of this conversation.

At least you are being consistent in making baseless assumptions about everyone - not just police officers.

RDKirk said:

What I think is threatening and what he thinks is threatening are two different things. I have to try to imagine what he thinks is threatening.

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This is BS and your attempt to justify your poor choices.

When you are interacting with a police officer you do as they order, and you don't do anything that they don't order.

RDKirk said:

But why should I? He is the professional in the situation.

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We get it - you lack personal accountability.

Everyone else is to blame if things don't go your way.

(Note: Sarcasm)

RDKirk said:

I didn't say "racist." I said "'bad' cop or just jumpy."

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In response to my saying that we should not assume that all or most police officers are racist you said,

"Of course we have to assume that. Or, at [least], I have to assume it."

You claimed that you had a need to assume that all police officers were racist.

RDKirk said:

I have no idea what to expect from the cop, either...and he's the one with the gun.

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Yes, you do. You know what to expect from a police officer a lot more than they know what to expect from you.

Case in point - you know that the officer has a gun - they don't know if you do.

RDKirk said:

How do I know what his perceptions are...unless I presume the worst? He's the one with the gun.

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If you are really this inept - there are many guides and videos on what to do and not to do when interacting with police officers.

I was recently pulled over and I recall keeping my hands on the steering wheel and when asked to provide my license and registration I notified the officer of where those items were in my car and asked permission to reach for them before I did so.

It is all about giving them no reason to suspect that I am deceiving them or that I am a threat.

RDKirk said:

That is not "respect." When I was active duty and the general called me into his office for a simple chat (that did happen once or twice), I showed respect. Respect and "Be very careful with every word and movement if you want to survive this meeting this meeting" are not the same thing. We have to treat a police officer like a grizzly bear that wandered into the tent...and that should not be the case.

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It is definitely respect - as well as wisdom.

Your commanding officer knew who you were and what your meeting was about.

Police officers tend not to know those they interact with, and the interaction is reactionary - not pre-planned.

Anyone who thinks this way about interacting with police officers are immature.

They are trying to blame everyone else for their ineptitude and lack of judgment.

They believe that they are entitled to do as they please and that they should be free of consequence.

rambot said:

I wonder if it's comforting or difficult to not be able to understand another person's point of view.

There are people working waffle house who are better ay deescalation than a good many cops because people at waffle houses get fired. Cops rewrite a report.

When cops mess up it destroys families. It destroys people Those are big stakes and there is virtually no accountability on one side and a potentially life destroying series of events for the citizens.

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Hyperbolic nonsense.

Zaha Torte said:

And you believe that these white people are justified in assuming that?

Or it was because the assumption that all police officers are racist against black people is the topic of this conversation.

At least you are being consistent in making baseless assumptions about everyone - not just police officers.

This is BS and your attempt to justify your poor choices.

When you are interacting with a police officer you do as they order, and you don't do anything that they don't order.

We get it - you lack personal accountability.

Everyone else is to blame if things don't go your way.

(Note: Sarcasm)

In response to my saying that we should not assume that all or most police officers are racist you said,

"Of course we have to assume that. Or, at [least], I have to assume it."

You claimed that you had a need to assume that all police officers were racist.

Yes, you do. You know what to expect from a police officer a lot more than they know what to expect from you.

Case in point - you know that the officer has a gun - they don't know if you do.

If you are really this inept - there are many guides and videos on what to do and not to do when interacting with police officers.

I was recently pulled over and I recall keeping my hands on the steering wheel and when asked to provide my license and registration I notified the officer of where those items were in my car and asked permission to reach for them before I did so.

It is all about giving them no reason to suspect that I am deceiving them or that I am a threat.

It is definitely respect - as well as wisdom.

Your commanding officer knew who you were and what your meeting was about.

Police officers tend not to know those they interact with, and the interaction is reactionary - not pre-planned.

Anyone who thinks this way about interacting with police officers are immature.

They are trying to blame everyone else for their ineptitude and lack of judgment.

They believe that they are entitled to do as they please and that they should be free of consequence.

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It doesn't matter whether the cop is black or white. In fact, my experience with black police officers has been worse than my experience with white police officers.

While I have seen no evidence that this story is true i don't think it can be denied there are bad cops. And bad cops cannot be tolerated.

If you are a bad cop, you should be fired at least and lose all your pension. If a cop does do something as in the OP, they should go to prison if found guilty.

But it's also a telling that there are those on this thread who have such a disdain for cops as a whole. Although I can understand do to the fact that I have a bit of disdain myself for teachers due to the ones that are screwing up kids. Or doctors who are REALLY screwing up kids.

RDKirk said:

It doesn't matter whether the cop is black or white. In fact, my experience with black police officers has been worse than my experience with white police officers.

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Irrelevant. I never mentioned the race of any police officer.