Apalachee High School: Multiple shooting victims at high school, one person arrested

iluvatar5150 said:

Not before, among other things, people stop worshipping guns.

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Now with the some of the family facts known i do not see this as a gun issue. There is extremely bad parenting, cruel parenting being reported. This has a far greater impact than the thing called the gun. In every plane crash there is always a detailed investigation. In the majority of cases there is a proven chain of events that if interrupted or corrected at any point along that chain, would have prevented the final event. ( shooting or plane hitting terrain)

To focus only on the last two minutes of flight or the shooting itself actually can prevent us from getting a better understanding of the events and reasons for it. In Sandy Hook you had a mother who thought it would be a good idea to get her son (confirmed mental health issues at the time, in therapy) a gun and teach him how to shoot. She was victim #1. in this case this young man was on FBI radar for over a year.

I am not suggesting no gun regulations etc but to look at it as just one of many factors.

AJHnh said:

Now with the some of the family facts known i do not see this as a gun issue.

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Because of course the kid would have caused the same amount of damage with the same small amount of effort if he didn’t have access to a gun.

dogs4thewin said:

When Jesus returns is actually the only answer that is the only time violence will end.

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I thought his return would herald the death of 2/3 of the human population?

The IbanezerScrooge said:

View attachment 354246

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You know what's fun? No one seems to comment on the absurdity of buying a gun for a teenaged kid as a gift, just as a concept itself. That tells a lot.

Desk trauma said:

Because of course the kid would have caused the same amount of damage with the same small amount of effort if he didn’t have access to a gun.

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You miss the point. I am not justifying or excusing it. However if the gun is the only thing we focus on, then focus on them honesty. We have over 400 million guns in this country with 80 million + gun owner. This means (guessing here) what? 50-80 million students (assuming one child per home ..some have six, others none) has potential gun access. How many students shoot up a school with those guns?

Obviously 99.99% of these folks do not. So does this mean we have no need to be concerned about those that do because that number that do, is almost mathematically insignificant? Of course not. My point is access to guns is not the driving factor. It is a tool that increase the level of destruction but we have to look at other issues. Looking at only guns prevents any real answers.

7thKeeper said:

You know what's fun? No one seems to comment on the absurdity of buying a gun for a teenaged kid as a gift, just as a concept itself. That tells a lot.

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Especially when your a parent that routinely locks your children out of the house, have drug and a host of other issues.

AJHnh said:

Now with the some of the family facts known i do not see this as a gun issue. There is extremely bad parenting, cruel parenting being reported. This has a far greater impact than the thing called the gun. In every plane crash there is always a detailed investigation. In the majority of cases there is a proven chain of events that if interrupted or corrected at any point along that chain, would have prevented the final event. ( shooting or plane hitting terrain)

To focus only on the last two minutes of flight or the shooting itself actually can prevent us from getting a better understanding of the events and reasons for it. In Sandy Hook you had a mother who thought it would be a good idea to get her son (confirmed mental health issues at the time, in therapy) a gun and teach him how to shoot. She was victim #1. in this case this young man was on FBI radar for over a year.

I am not suggesting no gun regulations etc but to look at it as just one of many factors.

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My comment wasn't about "guns." It was about "worshipping guns." The dad bought his son a gun after the FBI had already spoken to him about threats believed to have been made by his son. That's not an issue merely with "guns;" it's an issue with the father's attitudes towards them.

While there may have been other contributing factors, your FAA investigation would have absolutely castigated an airline or a governing body that allowed a pilot to continue to fly after they knew he had inadequate training and demonstrated a history of dangerous behavior. Procedural issues like this have been enough to bury airlines.

AJHnh said:

You miss the point.

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Sure didn’t. Focus on everything but the weapon that makes the incident possible, got that loud and clear.

AJHnh said:

I am not justifying or excusing it.

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Sure, sure.

AJHnh said:

However if the gun is the only thing we focus on, then focus on them honesty. We have over 400 million guns in this country with 80 million + gun owner. This means (guessing here) what? 50-80 million students (assuming one child per home ..some have six, others none) has potential gun access. How many students shoot up a school with those guns?

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Too many.

AJHnh said:

Obviously 99.99% of these folks do not. So does this mean we have no need to be concerned about those that do because that number that do, is almost mathematically insignificant? Of course not. My point is access to guns is not the driving factor.

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Except it is.

AJHnh said:

It is a tool that increase the level of destruction but we have to look at other issues. Looking at only guns prevents any real answers.

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No, just stops us from looking atthe obvious answer of why these things are almost exclusively an American problem.

Bradskii said:

Laws are meant to protect people by preventing bad things happening in the first place.

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Silly goose! Laws are for punishment not prevention. Why do you hate freedom?

ThatRobGuy said:

It does appear that Georgia has a quite different definition of 2nd degree murder than other states:

In Georgia, second-degree murder means that a person has caused the death of another person while committing second-degree cruelty to children, regardless of intent. It is punishable by 10 to 30 years in prison.

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Yes. It was discussed above prior to my post.

ThatRobGuy said:

Even still, not sure how trying that particular charge will play out. While I think it can be proven that the father's negligence lead to deaths, the father wasn't the one actually committing the act of cruelty to the children, his son was.

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That is my impression as I stated in my post. But we will see.

ThatRobGuy said:

Obviously a lot of negligence and mistakes were made here on the part of both the father (and law enforcement who knew about this risk before, and failed to act)

But not sure how I feel about a person (who didn't have intent) catching a murder charge for actions someone else committed.

It would appear that, with the way that law can be evidently applied...
If a parent lends their kid a car, and that kid decides to get drunk, and smash into a school bus and it kills kids, that parent could be charged with 2nd degree murder.

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Frankly I don't see the cruelty or negligence predicates in that scenario. (If the parent knew the kid was already drunk or was going to a beer party, then possibly the latter.)

ThatRobGuy said:

Not to mention we're talking about Georgia, a state that has some of the most lax gun laws.

2024 CODE OF GEORGIA :: Title 16 - CRIMES AND OFFENSES (§§ 16-1-1 — 16-17-10) :: Chapter 11 - OFFENSES AGAINST PUBLIC ORDER AND SAFETY (§§ 16-11-1 — 16-11-224) :: Article 4 - DANGEROUS INSTRUMENTALITIES AND PRACTICES (§§ 16-11-100 — 16-11-174) :: Par

Justia Free Databases of U.S. Laws, Codes & Statutes

law.justia.com

...they put carve-outs and exceptions in their laws that basically allow minors to have access to weapons.

It seems as if their laws are structured in such a way that they punish parents for their own legislative shortcomings.

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AJHnh said:

I am not suggesting no gun regulations etc but to look at it as just one of many factors.

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Maybe if you'd have said that we must have better gun regulations (but let's not forget the other factors involved), your post might have got a few ticks of approval. But as it stands it sure looks like you are minimising the problem as 'just one of many factors'.

The kid had access to an assault rifle. What would you change to make sure that doesn't happen again?

AJHnh said:

It is a tool that increase the level of destruction but we have to look at other issues. Looking at only guns prevents any real answers.

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Desk trauma said:

No, just stops us from looking atthe obvious answer of why these things are almost exclusively an American problem.

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@AJHnh , perhaps a different way to frame what you said is that simply focusing on symptom mitigation doesn't necessarily address some underlying issues that need to be addressed.

Obviously "lax access to guns" is allowing other issues to manifest themselves in ways that have devastating consequences. Taking guns away from everyone doesn't really address those issues, it just allows the consequences to be less severe.

The question is, how far do we take that concept of "mitigation over prevention"? If we take it as far as England and Canada, we start taking away anything anyone could use as defensive tool "because a crazy person could use that to hurt someone". Which is why England started restricting knives, and Canada won't even let someone have pepper spray on them. I would agree that we can't structure a society around making 99% of the people totally helpless (defensively), out of concern for what 1% may do with the defensive tool.

So I understand what you're saying, but if you're going to introduce the other aspects that are factors, then there needs to be a ready answer to those other aspects, otherwise it comes across as pure deflection.

That's where the NRA-funded GOP talking points about mental health issues fall flat on their face.

"It's not a gun problem, it's a mental health problem"
"Well, if that's the case, what are you going to do about mental health??"
"Nothing, because I don't want my taxes to go up"

....well, then why even bring it up?


This issue doesn't have to be "an American problem"...you can have a gun culture, and still have a pretty safe society.

Theirs is a "best of both worlds" model we could adopt

(they have shall issue gun permitting systems, they allow concealed-carry, they don't have "gun free zones", they can own an AR-15, the link shows a young lady shopping for one in Prague, the right to have a gun for defense is enshrined in their version of the constitution.... yet, their murder rate is on par with the Scandinavian countries and it's a pretty safe place to live... they do it via licensing, registration, and a lot of upstream vetting, and one big factor is that they provide easy access to healthcare - which includes mental healthcare - at no cost to their citizens)

RileyG said:

Again, I don't know what the solution is.

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This paper would suggest more gun free zones.


"After accounting for matched pairs, the conditional odds of an active shooting in gun-free establishments were 0.38 times those in non-gun-free establishments, with a 95% confidence interval of 0.19–0.73 (p-value = 0.0038)."

RileyG said:

I have a SUPER SUPER dumb question.

What if someone brings a gun into a gun-free zone?

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There are no dumb questions; only dumb people. It (a gun) is less likely to be brought into the gun free zone, thus reducing the amount of gun killings.

That’s the point. Unless you think harm reduction is a bad thing but you can’t be suggesting that.