“The Current Crisis of Faith in the Church Has Its Ground in the New Mass” — Analysis by Fr. Michael Gurtner

Michie said:

The following superb article by Austrian priest Fr. Michael Gurtner appeared in German at the site katholisches.info on November 27, 2022; the translation is published here with permission.—PAK



At present, the modern Church is working to change its internal constitution, transforming itself and by its own initiative from a hierarchical Church, as willed and instituted by God, to a “synodal” (and therefore humanly constructed) Church. In the one and only Church of Jesus Christ, which is the Catholic Church, a process of successive detachment from divine revelation and from Christ Himself has been underway for decades: it is thus a process of self-destruction. The Church is currently tearing itself apart from within. Unfortunately, the question is now very legitimate as to how Catholic the Catholic Church on earth still is. Is it really still as Christ intended and wanted it to be?

True, it is clear that the Catholic Church is identical with the Church instituted by Jesus Christ. One can, so to speak, point to the Catholic Church and say, “This is the one and only Church that Jesus Christ instituted.” Quite different, on the other hand, is the question of whether what is generally done, taught, decided, or believed by the earthly hierarchs of this one and only Church of Jesus Christ at any given time corresponds to what Christ willed.


One must not make the fatal mistake of thinking that everything the Church says in its visible organs automatically corresponds to the teachings and will of Jesus Christ. Not everything that the Church says and does is automatically in accordance with the divine will: in it there is very well also the potential to act in word and deed against the revelation of God. This is called error when it happens out of ignorance through no fault of its own, and sin when it happens willfully and consciously.


Continued below.

“The Current Crisis of Faith in the Church Has Its Ground in the New Mass” — Analysis by Fr. Michael Gurtner

The following superb article by Austrian priest Fr. Michael Gurtner appeared in German at the site katholisches.info on November 27, 2022;...

rorate-caeli.blogspot.com

Click to expand...

This is the completely wrong prescription for the problems facing the Church today. Cardinal Burke says we have problems with Chastity. Lack of Chastity comes from lack of obedience

Even if we had the Traditional Latin Mass in all parishes worldwide, if the problems of obedience and chastity are not resolved, it will be as the proverb says

Like a gold ring in a pig’s snout, so is a beautiful woman who shows no discretion.
Without substance, it’s all window dressing
As useless as the whitewashed sepulchers of Pharisee days

RileyG said:

I think it's both.

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Well the Novus Ordo still confects the Eucharist. That means that it is the Body and Blood, Soul and Divinity of Jesus Christ on the Altar.
Do we believe that? Do we accept Jesus as He is?
Or do we say, No Lord, I don’t like you like that. If I am going to obey you, I need you like I want you.

Do you see the problem? I love the Latin Mass. it is so beautiful and I wish it was never changed, but I go to Mass at the command of God and His Church, not my personal taste or preference

We need to humble ourselves before God, repent and pray for His Church, because it is His Church. Do we have a disciplined prayer life? Do we fast and give alms? Do we mortify our flesh? Do we deny ourselves and pray the Litany of Humility?

Or do we say, I would love to do all those things, but I can’t find the motivation to do them without the Latin Mass? Do we make God repent toward us or do we humble ourselves and repent toward God?

Draw near to God and He will draw near to you and will grant the desires of your heart. Since we don’t have the Latin Mass, do you pray in Latin?

YouTube has many prayer in Latin that we can learn. It took me a few months to a year but I now can pray the whole rosary in Latin including the Fatima prayer, the Salve Regina, the Apostle's creed, the end prayer, guardian angel prayer and St Michael Prayer. All Latin

My goal would be to pray the entire Auxilium Christianorum prayers in Latin every day, as well as the Angelus but that takes some work. God constantly reminds me to keep going as they play the Angelus Bells overhead at noon at work everyday. I work at a Catholic Hospital.
Most people don’t know what the bells are, but if they listen, I say that is the Angelus. If they want to know, I can explain it

Oh and you tube has the Angelus in Latin, if you want to listen to it and start a devotion

I attend the Novus Ordo, because that is where Jesus is right now, but I pray for Latin to be close to Him

Start Latin devotion in your home, you do not need permission for that, then seek permission from your priest to have a Latin devotional group to teach others and pray Catholic prayers in Latin
Start an Auxilium Christianorum group with permission from your priest

If you do it as to increase devotion and obedience, when you pray, God will grant your desires, but if we rebel from the Novus Ordo, the Holy Spirit will depart as God does not bless rebellion. Rebellion is the purview of Satan, the first being to think he knows better than God.

Michie said:

The following superb article by Austrian priest Fr. Michael Gurtner appeared in German at the site katholisches.info on November 27, 2022; the translation is published here with permission.—PAK



At present, the modern Church is working to change its internal constitution, transforming itself and by its own initiative from a hierarchical Church, as willed and instituted by God, to a “synodal” (and therefore humanly constructed) Church. In the one and only Church of Jesus Christ, which is the Catholic Church, a process of successive detachment from divine revelation and from Christ Himself has been underway for decades: it is thus a process of self-destruction. The Church is currently tearing itself apart from within. Unfortunately, the question is now very legitimate as to how Catholic the Catholic Church on earth still is. Is it really still as Christ intended and wanted it to be?

True, it is clear that the Catholic Church is identical with the Church instituted by Jesus Christ. One can, so to speak, point to the Catholic Church and say, “This is the one and only Church that Jesus Christ instituted.” Quite different, on the other hand, is the question of whether what is generally done, taught, decided, or believed by the earthly hierarchs of this one and only Church of Jesus Christ at any given time corresponds to what Christ willed.


One must not make the fatal mistake of thinking that everything the Church says in its visible organs automatically corresponds to the teachings and will of Jesus Christ. Not everything that the Church says and does is automatically in accordance with the divine will: in it there is very well also the potential to act in word and deed against the revelation of God. This is called error when it happens out of ignorance through no fault of its own, and sin when it happens willfully and consciously.


Continued below.

“The Current Crisis of Faith in the Church Has Its Ground in the New Mass” — Analysis by Fr. Michael Gurtner

The following superb article by Austrian priest Fr. Michael Gurtner appeared in German at the site katholisches.info on November 27, 2022;...

rorate-caeli.blogspot.com

Click to expand...

I think I agree. Not that all Novus Ordo masses are terrible, or invalid or anything. BUT that we lost something when we lost the mass as it was.

Here's what I would like to see. Us finally following the Vatican II document on the liturgy. Institute the 'ad oriens' position for the priest for all those moments when we and the priest are praying directly to God. (As cardinal Sarah asked us to do.) Returning to Latin in many fixed parts of the mass. Translating the TLM into English for the various Collects and Propers and the like instead of continuing to use the inferior engineered post Vatican II texts. Let those who wish to use the TLM go ahead and use the TLM. Forbid clown masses. And excuse any and all priests who no longer believe in the faith but happily pretend. This last part might be the most important. Allow good priests the freedom to be good priests.

RileyG said:

I think it's both.

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Yup.

boughtwithaprice said:

This is the completely wrong prescription for the problems facing the Church today. Cardinal Burke says we have problems with Chastity. Lack of Chastity comes from lack of obedience

Even if we had the Traditional Latin Mass in all parishes worldwide, if the problems of obedience and chastity are not resolved, it will be as the proverb says

Like a gold ring in a pig’s snout, so is a beautiful woman who shows no discretion.
Without substance, it’s all window dressing
As useless as the whitewashed sepulchers of Pharisee days

Click to expand...

We got the liturgical mess because pope Paul VI let stand innovations he should never have allowed. And that liturgical mess has hit lots of faithful Catholics hard. Many never recovered. OF COURSE cardinal Burke is correct in that our problem is charity. But Cardinal Burke relies heavily on the TLM while he says that.

boughtwithaprice said:

Well the Novus Ordo still confects the Eucharist. That means that it is the Body and Blood, Soul and Divinity of Jesus Christ on the Altar.
Do we believe that? Do we accept Jesus as He is?
Or do we say, No Lord, I don’t like you like that. If I am going to obey you, I need you like I want you.

Click to expand...

While the Novus Ordo IS valid we have a huge proportion of Catholics that say they take it all on their own terms or not at all. And a huge proportion of Catholics that are clueless. I don't think we can pretend any longer that the liturgical changes following Vatican II were not harmful. The question is how we can recover. Charity of course. Liturgical renewal by resourcement is also needed IMHO, starting with mining the mass before 1970 for lost things.

chevyontheriver said:

While the Novus Ordo IS valid we have a huge proportion of Catholics that say they take it all on their own terms or not at all. And a huge proportion of Catholics that are clueless. I don't think we can pretend any longer that the liturgical changes following Vatican II were not harmful. The question is how we can recover. Charity of course. Liturgical renewal by resourcement is also needed IMHO, starting with mining the mass before 1970 for lost things.

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That is our opinion and I would like that. My point is that if we want the Church to reform, we need to humble ourselves in repentance and obedience and seek the face of God.

Grumbling about the status quo is a distraction no matter how beautiful a distraction, God gave us instructions on behavior in time like these

2Chronicles 7

13 If I shut up heaven, and there fall no rain, or if I give orders, and command the locust to devour the land, or if I send pestilence among my people:

14 And my people, upon whom my name is called, being converted, shall make supplication to me, and seek out my face, and do penance for their most wicked ways: then will I hear from heaven, and will forgive their sins and will heal their land.

15 My eyes also shall be open, and my ears attentive to the prayer of him that shall pray in this place.

16 For I have chosen, and have sanctified this place, that my name may be there for ever, and my eyes and my heart may remain there perpetually

Crisis of faith? Sounds like we are scapegoating the "New Mass".

Does anyone remember the 60's. It was complete cultural revolution and of course the Church was touched by it.
The N.O. was more and attempt to survive it than cause of it.

Akita Suggagaki said:

Crisis of faith? Sounds like we are scapegoating the "New Mass".

Does anyone remember the 60's. It was complete cultural revolution and of course the Church was touched by it.
The NO was more and attempt to survive it than cause of it.

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Yes I agree
That is why I propose as does scripture that we humble ourselves and reach out to God with fasting and prayer
If we don’t do that then we wind up in rebellion and schism just like the well meaning but rebels in error that have gone before us.

God desires obedience rather than sacrifice



A contemporary example is the Jesuits. In Nicaragua they thought that they could reach the people through liberation theology and they actually became part of the military Junta that took over. John Paul II called them to holy obedience to leave their governmental posts and serve the Church, which they vowed to do. They did not listen

Nicaragua was a strong Catholic country and the people would never have accepted the Sandinistas if those on the Church had not told them it was ok. John Paul II tried to call the clergy to obedience but they thought they knew better. The Sandistas had them as part of their government and some Jesuits even fought as freedom fighters, what could go wrong?

Well now the Sandinistas have power and no longer need the Jesuits, so they have become staunchly anti Catholic and imprisoning bishops and suppressing the Church. Communists are staunch atheists and only use and throw away the Church to serve their own ends. Great move Jesuits☹️

Akita Suggagaki said:

Crisis of faith? Sounds like we are scapegoating the "New Mass".

Does anyone remember the 60's. It was complete cultural revolution and of course the Church was touched by it.

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Some in the Church WERE integral to the revolution. Trying to revolutionize the faith and the mass.

Akita Suggagaki said:

The N.O. was more and attempt to survive it than cause of it.

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The document on the liturgy from Vatican II was great. But we didn't get what that document asked for. At least not yet. It is one of the unfulfilled mandates of the Council. I do agree that it was an attempt at needed reforms. But we got other stuff instead.

chevyontheriver said:

Some in the Church WERE integral to the revolution. Trying to revolutionize the faith and the mass.

The document on the liturgy from Vatican II was great. But we didn't get what that document asked for. At least not yet. It is one of the unfulfilled mandates of the Council. I do agree that it was an attempt at needed reforms. But we got other stuff instead.

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I agree but I don't think it caused a true faith crisis. If there is a faith crisis it has been chronic long before the N.O. and other social factors have made it worse, as indicated by the growing number of "Nones".

Akita Suggagaki said:

I agree but I don't think it caused a true faith crisis. If there is a faith crisis it has been chronic long before the N.O. and other social factors have made it worse, as indicated by the growing number of "Nones".

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What you are saying is so true. We are all complaining about the symptoms, and I agree that they are horrible symptoms, we are in spiritual pain and want relief. How do we get it ?
Not by complaining. When has complaining ever been sufficient to cure a sickness? Anyone that has ever practiced medicine knows the answer is never.

I do not make this post to say how great I am

I just see what God is telling us to do. Ever see the movie Hoosiers, with Gene Hackman?
He had a small town basketball team that had dreams of greatness but did not want to put in the work. The parents of the town also thought they knew better snd wanted him fired

He has the team go back to fundamentals and he took them to championship greatness

We want the championship of the TLM. To get it we need to go back to basics of traditional Christianity. Our first love is God. His call and command to follow Him is self denial and obedience. Do we study the Catechism and do wha the Church says? Or do we think we know better? Oh we don’t have to do that, all we need is the TLM and things will be great. Wrong

We need to practice self denial, we need a disciplined prayer life. We need to fast. We need to give alms. Forget that tithing bunk, all that is is and excuse to keep 90% for ourselves. When we follow God, we give up everything for Him
There is nothing in this world that is worth holding on to. That includes our own selves, our family, our friends, our fellow congregants in our parish. Nothing is worth it, if we disobey God and His Church.

Instead of complaining about the lack of the TLM. Are we giving our lives to God?

boughtwithaprice said:

We want the championship of the TLM. To get it we need to go back to basics of traditional Christianity. Our first love is God. His call and command to follow Him is self denial and obedience.

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A simple message but our egos resist. As we draw near to the Feast of St Francis perhaps we can look beyond the romanticized fantasy and connect with the real work of our conversion.

boughtwithaprice said:

We need to practice self denial, we need a disciplined prayer life. We need to fast. We need to give alms. Forget that tithing bunk, all that is is and excuse to keep 90% for ourselves. When we follow God, we give up everything for Him

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I have been reading Mercea Eliade The Sacred and the Profane. It is helping me to appreciate sacred time and sacred space, sacred actions and simply the sacred sphere of our existence. It is always there but we fail to recognize it. When we do it seems very different from our ordinary profane sphere. For 1,960 years the Latin Language in liturgy gave it a sacred mantle. Even though I appreciate the vernacular Mass I also miss the Latin. But the things you list above, a disciplined prayer life, fasting, giving alms, self giving, They also help us to really consecrate our lives.

The Church was not perfect prior to Vatican II. Changes and reform were needed. When some things become "sacred" for us we must be discerning. Language, customs, traditions, pious practices, words and deeds all have the potential of becoming "sacred". But what makes them sacred? Not us nor our habits. Only God can make something sacred by disclosing divine presence. We can only cultivate our awareness. Again, disciplined prayer life, fasting, giving alms, self giving and, of course prayer help tp do that.

OP, the new Mass is not the problem though I think TLM helped us as least feel and cultivate a sense of the sacred as aligning us with Church history. It was an explicit link to centuries of our community in prayer, reflection and theology. But the "Novus Ordo" also has its value in helping us all to feel more involved and helping us to understand more clearly.

Michie said:

The following superb article by Austrian priest Fr. Michael Gurtner appeared in German at the site katholisches.info on November 27, 2022; the translation is published here with permission.—PAK


At present, the modern Church is working to change its internal constitution, transforming itself and by its own initiative from a hierarchical Church, as willed and instituted by God, to a “synodal” (and therefore humanly constructed) Church. In the one and only Church of Jesus Christ, which is the Catholic Church, a process of successive detachment from divine revelation and from Christ Himself has been underway for decades: it is thus a process of self-destruction. The Church is currently tearing itself apart from within. Unfortunately, the question is now very legitimate as to how Catholic the Catholic Church on earth still is. Is it really still as Christ intended and wanted it to be?

Click to expand...

He is a little off his rocker in his divinization of hierarchy

Akita Suggagaki said:

I have been reading Mercea Eliade The Sacred and the Profane. It is helping me to appreciate sacred time and sacred space, sacred actions and simply the sacred sphere of our existence. It is always there but we fail to recognize it. When we do it seems very different from our ordinary profane sphere. For 1,960 years the Latin Language in liturgy gave it a sacred mantle. Even though I appreciate the vernacular Mass I also miss the Latin. But the things you list above, a disciplined prayer life, fasting, giving alms, self giving, They also help us to really consecrate our lives.

The Church was not perfect prior to Vatican II. Changes and reform were needed. When some things become "sacred" for us we must be discerning. Language, customs, traditions, pious practices, words and deeds all have the potential of becoming "sacred". But what makes them sacred? Not us nor our habits. Only God can make something sacred by disclosing divine presence. We can only cultivate our awareness. Again, disciplined prayer life, fasting, giving alms, self giving and, of course prayer help tp do that.

OP, the new Mass is not the problem though I think TLM helped us as least feel and cultivate a sense of the sacred as aligning us with Church history. It was an explicit link to centuries of our community in prayer, reflection and theology. But the "Novus Ordo" also has its value in helping us all to feel more involved and helping us to understand more clearly.

Click to expand...

I agree with you. I am frequently drawn to the scripture, I desire obedience rather than sacrifice. Considering that was written in the Old Covenant, I tend to think of it in the New Covenant “I desire obedience rather than liturgy” (my own thoughts subject to rebuke or correction)

Liturgy is beautiful and helps us feel closer to God, and if the Eucharist is properly confected, it allows us to consume His flesh and blood.
I what good is it if we do not give ourselves fully to Him in obedience?

The other scripture that I am reminded of is “If you are going to offer a gift at the altar and remember that your brother has something against you, go first and make peace with your brother, then return to offer your gift (paraphrase once again subject to correction)

We can fight for the Latin Mass all we want, and it should be preserved as a beautiful Liturgy, but we should fight for self denial and obedience more. First align our hearts in obedience, then return to the Latin Mass.

Peace be with you

boughtwithaprice said:

I agree with you. I am frequently drawn to the scripture, I desire obedience rather than sacrifice. Considering that was written in the Old Covenant, I tend to think of it in the New Covenant “I desire obedience rather than liturgy” (my own thoughts subject to rebuke or correction)

Liturgy is beautiful and helps us feel closer to God, and if the Eucharist is properly confected, it allows us to consume His flesh and blood.
I what good is it if we do not give ourselves fully to Him in obedience?

The other scripture that I am reminded of is “If you are going to offer a gift at the altar and remember that your brother has something against you, go first and make peace with your brother, then return to offer your gift (paraphrase once again subject to correction)

We can fight for the Latin Mass all we want, and it should be preserved as a beautiful Liturgy, but we should fight for self denial and obedience more. First align our hearts in obedience, then return to the Latin Mass.

Peace be with you

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This thread/conversation has been remarkable in the scope and depth touched upon by all, in seeking to be helpful to the Church which is so in need of healing. I think that the problem is not two-dimensional, however - not a matter definable by obedience and sacrifice, for example, to try to simplify the discourse for a moment. I believe that Jesus reveal to us three - not two - dimensions that must not be neglected nor lost by His Church. Three as the Trinity must be three, thus three we the Church must know and live to reach our call to return to God.

Jesus chose three to accompany Him to the mount - the revelation - of Transfiguration. Transfiguration showed us Jesus in Glory, and that Glory is our vocation: to grow (to use the most simple term) from and out of our natural fallen state toward and into our vocation to glory with God in eternity. The three were Peter, James and John - these (if I may theologize a bit) revealing three dimensions 1) Petrine / hierarchy, 2) Jacobian / self-donation, sacrifice, 3) Johannine / prayer-communion, spirituality. Those three comprise (I believe) the absolutely necessary three dimensions that must be alive in the Church, to be the Church "instituted" by Jesus Christ. Lacking the integrity of those three is to invite "humanizing" among the members to grow in the institution rather than "divinizing" as is the work - the liturgy - to be of the Church.

A major component lacking in the Church, to change approach for a moment, is the knowing of God. How can we love, serve, obey or worship the True and Only God if we do not know Him in Truth? The institutional Church is far too "humanizing" and far too deficient in "divinizing" - lacking in the Jacobian and Johannine dimensions needed in our goal of transformation in Christ.

fide said:

This thread/conversation has been remarkable in the scope and depth touched upon by all, in seeking to be helpful to the Church which is so in need of healing. I think that the problem is not two-dimensional, however - not a matter definable by obedience and sacrifice, for example, to try to simplify the discourse for a moment. I believe that Jesus reveal to us three - not two - dimensions that must not be neglected nor lost by His Church. Three as the Trinity must be three, thus three we the Church must know and live to reach our call to return to God.

Jesus chose three to accompany Him to the mount - the revelation - of Transfiguration. Transfiguration showed us Jesus in Glory, and that Glory is our vocation: to grow (to use the most simple term) from and out of our natural fallen state toward and into our vocation to glory with God in eternity. The three were Peter, James and John - these (if I may theologize a bit) revealing three dimensions 1) Petrine / hierarchy, 2) Jacobian / self-donation, sacrifice, 3) Johannine / prayer-communion, spirituality. Those three comprise (I believe) the absolutely necessary three dimensions that must be alive in the Church, to be the Church "instituted" by Jesus Christ. Lacking the integrity of those three is to invite "humanizing" among the members to grow in the institution rather than "divinizing" as is the work - the liturgy - to be of the Church.

A major component lacking in the Church, to change approach for a moment, is the knowing of God. How can we love, serve, obey or worship the True and Only God if we do not know Him in Truth? The institutional Church is far too "humanizing" and far too deficient in "divinizing" - lacking in the Jacobian and Johannine dimensions needed in our goal of transformation in Christ.

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Excellent point. I have begun to study Therese of Avila and the Nine levels of prayer. To your post above, I could not agree more
May God richly bless you as you continue to get to know Him

The three we pursue are Faith Hope and Charity

Liturgy is the Faith
Obedience is the Hope
Prayer and knowing is Charity

These three remain but the greatest is Charity

I could only rate you post above as winner, but it is deserving of much more