Is Salvation about the individual or the group?

KevinT · Aug 21, 2024

A common cartoon meme is an individual arriving at the Pearly Gates, where Peter at the gate determines if they are allowed to enter. If they are allowed to enter, they are "saved," if not then they are "lost." It is a one-at-a-time, individual, consideration.

But often in the Bible, the discussion of salvation is based on GROUPS or nations. Israel, as a nation, was to be saved or lost. When the Babylonians attacked, the entire nation was conquered and even good people were swept up in the destruction.

In the New Testament, there emphasis on the individual relationship with God, and how we are personally saved or lost.

But still, in the book of Revelation, there is again discussion of nations and wars, and warnings to God's people:

Rev 18:4 Then I heard another voice from heaven say: “’Come out of her, my people,’ so that you will not share in her sins, so that you will not receive any of her plagues;

Questions:

Does "salvation" mean different things in different contexts?
Did God change the way He works with mankind -- previously corporately, and now individually?
Does it make any sense for just 1 person to be saved? Without family, community, friends etc, would that 1 person be happy?

I think that God's goal is to save mankind, as a species -- a unique member of the family of God. He also saves individual persons as part of this process. Like cells that comprise our body, we individuals compositely make up mankind. And God is working to save both.

What do you think?

KT

SabbathBlessings · Aug 21, 2024

It's based on the individual.

2 Corinthians 5:10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, that each one may receive the things done in the body, according to what he has done, whether good or bad.

There is only one salvation- we are all saved by grace through faith. In the OT it was faith looking forward to the Cross, now it's faith looking back at the Cross.

18:4 is a warning for all of God's people to come out of our false teachings handed down by traditions over the centuries in place of God's law Mat 15:3-14

While we are not saved by law-keeping, we are saved by grace through faith- those with faith live differently than those who don't. Rev 14:12

Just because we have a parent or child that believes, that is not enough for our own salvation- we each need to have a personal relationship with Jesus Christ and accept Him as our personal Savior.

RandyPNW · Aug 21, 2024

KevinT said:
A common cartoon meme is an individual arriving at the Pearly Gates, where Peter at the gate determines if they are allowed to enter. If they are allowed to enter, they are "saved," if not then they are "lost." It is a one-at-a-time, individual, consideration.

But often in the Bible, the discussion of salvation is based on GROUPS or nations. Israel, as a nation, was to be saved or lost. When the Babylonians attacked, the entire nation was conquered and even good people were swept up in the destruction.

In the New Testament, there emphasis on the individual relationship with God, and how we are personally saved or lost.

But still, in the book of Revelation, there is again discussion of nations and wars, and warnings to God's people:

Questions:

Does "salvation" mean different things in different contexts?

Did God change the way He works with mankind -- previously corporately, and now individually?

Does it make any sense for just 1 person to be saved? Without family, community, friends etc, would that 1 person be happy?

I think that God's goal is to save mankind, as a species -- a unique member of the family of God. He also saves individual persons as part of this process. Like cells that comprise our body, we individuals compositely make up mankind. And God is working to save both.

What do you think?

KT

It's a great question, and I've been addressing this for some time now. There has been absolute and utter rejection of what I share, or complete silence, and I'm not sure why? Much in the OT is dealing with *political salvation* from a nation's enemies. And that's because God called an entire nation, and not just individuals.

This is saying nothing against the importance of individual salvation in the spiritual sense. The idea is to not just save the individual but also to save the society, to defend social justice.

It is often protested that State Governments are corrupted when they join forces with Religion. So what are they supposed to join forces with--the Antichrist? Certainly, nations both rise and fall, but shouldn't God want nations to rise and be blessed by encouraging them to follow His laws?

So political salvation is intimately connected to spiritual salvation because one is reliant on the other. Ultimately, Israel will only be saved to suffer "defeat no more* when they purge themselves of those who wish to prevent their Christianization.

Individuals can make a huge difference in the rise and Christianization of nations. And individuals can make a huge impact on the deChristianization of nations. Good question! We should pursue both individual salvation in the spiritual sense and pursue national revival, if at all possible.

timothyu · Aug 21, 2024

KevinT said:
I think that God's goal is to save mankind, as a species -- a unique member of the family of God. He also saves individual persons as part of this process. Like cells that comprise our body, we individuals compositely make up mankind. And God is working to save both.

God was waging war with spirits rebellious to His will long before us or our creation. We are but a part of this greater whole.

bling · Aug 21, 2024

KevinT said:
Does "salvation" mean different things in different contexts?

Very much so. The Old Testament Jews thought of “salvation” as returning Israel to a mighty nation, better than even under David.

KevinT said:
Did God change the way He works with mankind -- previously corporately, and now individually?

Not really it has always been individual, but prior to the Spiritual Kingdom like we have now, the physical earthly nation of Israel was delt with as a nation by God.

KevinT said:
Does it make any sense for just 1 person to be saved? Without family, community, friends etc, would that 1 person be happy?

Yes, it does. God is not going to “force” someone to go to heaven, against their will, and be unhappy in heaven. Your Love for Deity is so great that your love for family God describes as hate. You will need to know their decision and why.

KevinT said:
I think that God's goal is to save mankind, as a species -- a unique member of the family of God. He also saves individual persons as part of this process. Like cells that comprise our body, we individuals compositely make up mankind. And God is working to save both.

What do you think?

Heaven is a place where there is no carnal type love and only Godly type love exists, so if a person just likes and wants to be “loved” for the way they want others to perceive them to be (good looking, smart, humorous, talented, fun to be with, joking around, and anything else) instead of being Loved in spite of the way they truly are that person is would not be happy in heaven and God does not want them to be unhappy, but He can not change who He is (Love).

This life on earth is the only place I see where we can obtain Godly type Love, so it determines if you can be happy in heaven.

BobRyan · Aug 21, 2024

KevinT said:
A common cartoon meme is an individual arriving at the Pearly Gates, where Peter at the gate determines if they are allowed to enter. If they are allowed to enter, they are "saved," if not then they are "lost." It is a one-at-a-time, individual, consideration.

But often in the Bible, the discussion of salvation is based on GROUPS or nations. Israel, as a nation, was to be saved or lost. When the Babylonians attacked, the entire nation was conquered and even good people were swept up in the destruction.

In the New Testament, there emphasis on the individual relationship with God, and how we are personally saved or lost.

But still, in the book of Revelation, there is again discussion of nations and wars, and warnings to God's people:

Questions:

Does "salvation" mean different things in different contexts?

Did God change the way He works with mankind -- previously corporately, and now individually?

Does it make any sense for just 1 person to be saved? Without family, community, friends etc, would that 1 person be happy?

I think that God's goal is to save mankind, as a species -- a unique member of the family of God. He also saves individual persons as part of this process. Like cells that comprise our body, we individuals compositely make up mankind. And God is working to save both.

What do you think?

KT

Ezek 18 says it is all on an individual basis.
Rom 2 says it is all on an individual basis.
John 1:11-12 says it is all on an individual basis
John 15:1-12 says it is all on an individual basis.

Matt 7 "not everyone who says Lord Lord - will be saved - but rather it is he who does the will of the Father" --- Individual basis.

timothyu · Aug 21, 2024

Nations can be saved if they reject the rebellious will of man and revert to the will of God. Nations are under the rules of adversarial spirits and their minions of mankind. Check out the elections.

Individuals however are now free thanks to Jesus to separate themselves from this worldly life, reject the self serving ways of man and live by the will of God and what will be his Kingdom to come, while surrounded by adversarial nations, spirits and people.

BobRyan · Aug 21, 2024

timothyu said:
Nations can be saved if they reject the rebellious will of man and revert to the will of God.

If every individual in the nation "just so happens" to accept Christ and is saved - then "the nation is saved" - but no text in OT or NT says that "nations choose" salvation - rather individuals do.

Nations can choose to be in rebellion or not - but even at Sinai we have no indication that every single person was a born-again Christian.

Clare73 · Aug 21, 2024

KevinT said:
A common cartoon meme is an individual arriving at the Pearly Gates, where Peter at the gate determines if they are allowed to enter. If they are allowed to enter, they are "saved," if not then they are "lost." It is a one-at-a-time, individual, consideration.

But often in the Bible, the discussion of salvation is based on GROUPS or nations. Israel, as a nation, was to be saved or lost.

Israel was to produce the Messiah, and learn the meaning of sin (spiritual defilement) and the necessity of its cleansing through the ceremonial laws.

KevinT said:
When the Babylonians attacked, the entire nation was conquered and even good people were swept up in the destruction.
In the New Testament, there emphasis on the individual relationship with God, and how we are personally saved or lost.
But still, in the book of Revelation, there is again discussion of nations and wars, and warnings to God's people:
Questions:
Does "salvation" mean different things in different contexts?

In the OT, salvation meant safety, deliverance, ease.

In the NT salvation is from the wrath of God (Ro 5:9) on sin at the Judgment.

KevinT said:
Did God change the way He works with mankind -- previously corporately, and now individually?

The OT covenants were not about salvation.
Salvation is the forgiveness of sin.
The purview of the sacrifices and ceremonial laws was the covering of sin (Ro 4:3), which sin was an individual matter, and
one day a year (Day of Atonement) a corporate matter.

KevinT said:
Does it make any sense for just 1 person to be saved? Without family, community, friends etc, would that 1 person be happy?
I think that God's goal is to save mankind, as a species -- a unique member of the family of God. He also saves individual persons as part of this process. Like cells that comprise our body, we individuals compositely make up mankind. And God is working to save both.
What do you think?

The Bible reveals a much larger picture: i.e.,

God's plan to show forth the glory of his goodness through the glory of his Son bringing many sons to glory (Heb 2:9-10).

KevinT · Aug 21, 2024

RandyPNW said:
It's a great question, and I've been addressing this for some time now. There has been absolute and utter rejection of what I share, or complete silence, and I'm not sure why?

I'll respond to you. I have found that whenever I seem to write something that is fair and balanced, it gets ignored. The best way to get replies is to make some controversial post. Ha!

RandyPNW said:
Much in the OT is dealing with *political salvation* from a nation's enemies. And that's because God called an entire nation, and not just individuals.

This is saying nothing against the importance of individual salvation in the spiritual sense. The idea is to not just save the individual but also to save the society, to defend social justice.

It salvation is only and *individual* issue, then a hermit living isolated from society should be a model Christian, as they put away all temptation and get all their thoughts perfectly on God. But I agree with you that God wants well functioning societies, which depend on justice, kindness to the poor, etc.

RandyPNW said:
It is often protested that State Governments are corrupted when they join forces with Religion. So what are they supposed to join forces with--the Antichrist? Certainly, nations both rise and fall, but shouldn't God want nations to rise and be blessed by encouraging them to follow His laws?

This is an interesting side point. On the face of it, what you say seem right. But the problem is that it never seems to work out. Look all through history; when religion is enforced by the government, all sorts of problems arise. I once read a great book, "The Name of the Rose" by Umberto Eco. (There was a movie made of this starring Sean Connery). One theme, among many, was showing itinerant monks who were dissatisfied with how the lower classes were being treated, and so they protested as they were able. The government and the Church at that time were essentially one and the same. So protesting against a governing policy was deemed to be a religious issue, and they were charged with heresy. And to generalize the problem, any attack on government -- something Americans now consider an inalienable right -- was treated as an attack on the church, and the church leaders fought back with excommunication etc. It just is not a good idea.

When we Jesus Himself at the head of our government, then it will be good. But in the meantime, we don't want wolves in sheep's clothing worming their way into power of a modern theocracy.

RandyPNW said:
So political salvation is intimately connected to spiritual salvation because one is reliant on the other. Ultimately, Israel will only be saved to suffer "defeat no more* when they purge themselves of those who wish to prevent their Christianization.

Individuals can make a huge difference in the rise and Christianization of nations. And individuals can make a huge impact on the deChristianization of nations. Good question! We should pursue both individual salvation in the spiritual sense and pursue national revival, if at all possible.

Interesting thoughts. Thanks for your feedback!

KT

KevinT · Aug 21, 2024

BobRyan said:
If every individual in the nation "just so happens" to accept Christ and is saved - then "the nation is saved" - but no text in OT or NT says that "nations choose" salvation - rather individuals do.

What about the heathen Assyrian nation and its key city, Nineveh. God sent a warning of destruction, and there was widespread repentance with sackcloth etc. I suspect not every single citizen repented, but enough did that God relented and did not destroy the city -- to Jonah's great annoyance.

Isn't that an example of a nation being saved?

BobRyan said:
Nations can choose to be in rebellion or not - but even at Sinai we have no indication that every single person was a born-again Christian.

I'm not understanding your point about Sinai and Christian. Aren't these events separated by eons of time?

Thanks for your feedback.
KT

KevinT · Aug 21, 2024

SabbathBlessings said:
It's based on the individual.

2 Corinthians 5:10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, that each one may receive the things done in the body, according to what he has done, whether good or bad.

There is only one salvation- we are all saved by grace through faith. In the OT it was faith looking forward to the Cross, now it's faith looking back at the Cross.

18:4 is a warning for all of God's people to come out of our false teachings handed down by traditions over the centuries in place of God's law Mat 15:3-14

While we are not saved by law-keeping, we are saved by grace through faith- those with faith live differently than those who don't. Rev 14:12

Just because we have a parent or child that believes, that is not enough for our own salvation- we each need to have a personal relationship with Jesus Christ and accept Him as our personal Savior.

I pointed out in my OP that the NT emphasizes individual salvation. You listed several texts that confirm this. Do you think there is any way of there being current-day salvation for a nation if it does right, protects its poor, defends the fatherless, upholds justice etc?

Best wishes,
KT

KevinT · Aug 21, 2024

bling said:
... Heaven is a place where there is no carnal type love and only Godly type love exists, so if a person just likes and wants to be “loved” for the way they want others to perceive them to be (good looking, smart, humorous, talented, fun to be with, joking around, and anything else) instead of being Loved in spite of the way they truly are that person is would not be happy in heaven and God does not want them to be unhappy, but He can not change who He is (Love).

This life on earth is the only place I see where we can obtain Godly type Love, so it determines if you can be happy in heaven.

Thanks for your feedback. I agree with most of what you say. And of course "heaven" is actually going to be on this earth after it is recreated.

Best wishes,

KT

RandyPNW · Aug 21, 2024

KevinT said:
I'll respond to you. I have found that whenever I seem to write something that is fair and balanced, it gets ignored. The best way to get replies is to make some controversial post. Ha!

They call that "breaking the glass window" or "rock throwing." I throw bombs only on occasion--certainly not in an area that is marked as being a terrorist danger!

But seriously, nobody really knows where the line is in some matters. Some are motivated by malicious spirits, and others by honest inquiry.

However, I'm speaking of ideas that are not currently popular, or ones that challenge the currently popular narrative. It's actually been unpopular for a long time to support the idea of State churches.

Though they have obviously existed, and still exist, there are many who have told me there is no such thing as "State churches!" They sound, in the present environment, like a corrupt theocracy. In a time when Islamic theocracies can be so brutal I can somewhat understand that!

KevinT said:
It salvation is only and *individual* issue, then a hermit living isolated from society should be a model Christian, as they put away all temptation and get all their thoughts perfectly on God. But I agree with you that God wants well functioning societies, which depend on justice, kindness to the poor, etc.

Rare breed that you are, much thanks!

KevinT said:
This is an interesting side point. On the face of it, what you say seem right. But the problem is that it never seems to work out. Look all through history; when religion is enforced by the government, all sorts of problems arise. I once read a great book, "The Name of the Rose" by Umberto Eco. (There was a movie made of this starring Sean Connery). One theme, among many, was showing itinerant monks who were dissatisfied with how the lower classes were being treated, and so they protested as they were able. The government and the Church at that time were essentially one and the same. So protesting against a governing policy was deemed to be a religious issue, and they were charged with heresy. And to generalize the problem, any attack on government -- something Americans now consider an inalienable right -- was treated as an attack on the church, and the church leaders fought back with excommunication etc. It just is not a good idea.

I would argue that failure in one time period is not a failure in all time periods. At one time it worked out for Israel to just have judges, and it was better than having kings. But later, though kings were indeed a problem, that worked out too.

Later, when the people became idolatrous, and the kings did too, having kings did not work out so well. That doesn't mean having kings or judges is a bad idea. It just means they may not be working out well in the moment.

Though it may be impractical for me to expect my country to become exclusively Christian and not pluralistic, it is still part of the Gospel that I must preach to others to obtain from them true loyalty to one God and to one religion.

That is, I must preach the Kingdom of God, which is a theocracy, if I am to invite complete loyalty to one Christ. If I give reason to embrace many religions, ultimately those religions will not be viewed as a threat and there will be compromise.

KevinT said:
Interesting thoughts. Thanks for your feedback!

You're welcome, Kevin. I appreciate the conversation!

SabbathBlessings · Aug 21, 2024

KevinT said:
I pointed out in my OP that the NT emphasizes individual salvation. You listed several texts that confirm this. Do you think there is any way of there being current-day salvation for a nation if it does right, protects its poor, defends the fatherless, upholds justice etc?

Best wishes,
KT

The only Nation that is saved is Spiritual Israel- not Jew or Greek, but those who enter through faith. Gal 3:26-38 Heb 4:2

timothyu · Aug 21, 2024

RandyPNW said:
That is, I must preach the Kingdom of God, which is a theocracy, if I am to invite complete loyalty to one Christ.

Too bad Christianity rejected the Kingdom to rejoin the world of man at the time of the Roman Empire

RandyPNW · Aug 21, 2024

timothyu said:
Too bad Christianity rejected the Kingdom to rejoin the world of man at the time of the Roman Empire

I realize that's your position. It's not mine. The alternative to State Christianity was a Roman State that was idolatrous. If you wish to have that instead of a Christian Empire, then you apparently favor idolatry over Christianity?

Guojing · Aug 21, 2024

KevinT said:
A common cartoon meme is an individual arriving at the Pearly Gates, where Peter at the gate determines if they are allowed to enter. If they are allowed to enter, they are "saved," if not then they are "lost." It is a one-at-a-time, individual, consideration.

But often in the Bible, the discussion of salvation is based on GROUPS or nations. Israel, as a nation, was to be saved or lost. When the Babylonians attacked, the entire nation was conquered and even good people were swept up in the destruction.

In the New Testament, there emphasis on the individual relationship with God, and how we are personally saved or lost.

But still, in the book of Revelation, there is again discussion of nations and wars, and warnings to God's people:

Questions:

Does "salvation" mean different things in different contexts?

Did God change the way He works with mankind -- previously corporately, and now individually?

Does it make any sense for just 1 person to be saved? Without family, community, friends etc, would that 1 person be happy?

I think that God's goal is to save mankind, as a species -- a unique member of the family of God. He also saves individual persons as part of this process. Like cells that comprise our body, we individuals compositely make up mankind. And God is working to save both.

What do you think?

KT

The vast majority of scripture is written to a nation, that descended from Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.

The nation fell in the middle of Acts (Romans 11:11), and hence salvation is now open to all individuals, including gentiles, to form the Body of Christ.

But God has not forgotten that nation of Israel, and will deal with them during the Tribulation, after the rapture of the Body of Christ.

Rose_bud · Aug 22, 2024

KevinT said:
A common cartoon meme is an individual arriving at the Pearly Gates, where Peter at the gate determines if they are allowed to enter. If they are allowed to enter, they are "saved," if not then they are "lost." It is a one-at-a-time, individual, consideration.

But often in the Bible, the discussion of salvation is based on GROUPS or nations. Israel, as a nation, was to be saved or lost. When the Babylonians attacked, the entire nation was conquered and even good people were swept up in the destruction.

In the New Testament, there emphasis on the individual relationship with God, and how we are personally saved or lost.

But still, in the book of Revelation, there is again discussion of nations and wars, and warnings to God's people:

Questions:

Does "salvation" mean different things in different contexts?

Did God change the way He works with mankind -- previously corporately, and now individually?

Does it make any sense for just 1 person to be saved? Without family, community, friends etc, would that 1 person be happy?

I think that God's goal is to save mankind, as a species -- a unique member of the family of God. He also saves individual persons as part of this process. Like cells that comprise our body, we individuals compositely make up mankind. And God is working to save both.

What do you think?

KT

Hey KT

I think it's both - individual salvation and households. We see it in Scripture, (the jailor in Acts 16 and Cornelius' whole household coming to faith in Acts 10). It's individual hearts turning to God, but also entire families and communities being transformed. We're all part of a new family, a new nation, united in our allegiance to Christ. It starts with one person, but Gods plan is to bring many into His family - just like Abraham, one man, became the father of a multitude.

Rose_bud · Aug 22, 2024

KevinT said:
This is an interesting side point. On the face of it, what you say seem right. But the problem is that it never seems to work out. Look all through history; when religion is enforced by the government, all sorts of problems arise. I once read a great book, "The Name of the Rose" by Umberto Eco. (There was a movie made of this starring Sean Connery). One theme, among many, was showing itinerant monks who were dissatisfied with how the lower classes were being treated, and so they protested as they were able. The government and the Church at that time were essentially one and the same. So protesting against a governing policy was deemed to be a religious issue, and they were charged with heresy. And to generalize the problem, any attack on government -- something Americans now consider an inalienable right -- was treated as an attack on the church, and the church leaders fought back with excommunication etc. It just is not a good idea.

When we Jesus Himself at the head of our government, then it will be good. But in the meantime, we don't want wolves in sheep's clothing worming their way into power of a modern theocracy.

I agree that when religion is tied to government, it can lead to abuse of authority and suppression of individual rights. However, I also believe that Scripture offers a solution to this problem. In Israel's theocratic system, when leaders strayed from God, the prophetic voice held them accountable. Even when they moved to a more monarchial structure. Prophets like Nathan, Isaiah, Ezekiel, and Jeremiah spoke truth to kings and nations holding power. Even John the Baptist lost his life for speaking truth to power. The question is, is the Church as a collective, courageous enough to become a prophetic voice, speaking out against the things that grieve God's heart, or will it remain silent?

Is Salvation about the individual or the group?

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Great is thy faithfulness, O God my Father...

Great is thy faithfulness, O God my Father...

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