• Starting today August 7th, 2024, in order to post in the Married Couples, Courting Couples, or Singles forums, you will not be allowed to post if you have your Marital status designated as private. Announcements will be made in the respective forums as well but please note that if yours is currently listed as Private, you will need to submit a ticket in the Support Area to have yours changed.

  • CF has always been a site that welcomes people from different backgrounds and beliefs to participate in discussion and even debate. That is the nature of its ministry. In view of recent events emotions are running very high. We need to remind people of some basic principles in debating on this site. We need to be civil when we express differences in opinion. No personal attacks. Avoid you, your statements. Don't characterize an entire political party with comparisons to Fascism or Communism or other extreme movements that committed atrocities. CF is not the place for broad brush or blanket statements about groups and political parties. Put the broad brushes and blankets away when you come to CF, better yet, put them in the incinerator. Debate had no place for them. We need to remember that people that commit acts of violence represent themselves or a small extreme faction.

On this ROCK/Peter I will build my church vs Jesus is the CORNERSTONE

tonychanyt

24/7 Christian
Oct 2, 2011
6,061
2,239
Toronto
Visit site
✟196,430.00
Country
Canada
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
I will attempt a historical-grammatical analysis of the title verses.
Jesus spoke to Peter in Matthew 16:
18 I tell you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades will not overcome it.
BDAG:
① bedrock or massive rock formations, rock as distinguished from stones
Jesus used a Greek pun of Πέτρος (Peter) and πέτρᾳ (rock). He graciously used this metaphor, comparing Peter with the church's bedrock.
What did Peter think of this bedrock metaphor?
Nothing much. After he denied Jesus, he learned humility. Instead of identifying himself as the church's bedrock, he always pointed to Jesus as the cornerstone.
The Sanhedrin seized Peter and John. Peter told them in Acts 4:
11 This Jesus is ‘the stone you builders rejected,
Strong's Greek: 3037. λίθος (lithos) — 59 Occurrences
This stone was not some rock in the wild.
BDAG:
②ⓐ of stones used in building
which has become the cornerstone.
BDAG:
① the part of the body that contains the brain, head
② a being of high status, head
ⓑ of things the uppermost part, extremity, end, point, the cornerstone
In ancient construction, the cornerstone was the first stone laid for a structure, often in a corner. It was carefully selected, shaped, and placed because the rest of the building was oriented and aligned according to this stone. Its placement was critical, as it ensured the stability and accuracy of the building’s foundation and structure. Note the order:
  1. cornerstone
  2. foundation
  3. the rest of the up-ground structure.
Peter was not the cornerstone.
12 Salvation exists in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given to men by which we must be saved.” 11 This Jesus is the stone that was rejected by you, the builders, which has become the cornerstone
Peter recognized that Jesus was the foremost stone and the cornerstone (head). This head stone would be followed by other stones.
1 Peter 2:
4 As you come to him, a living stone rejected by men but in the sight of God chosen and precious, 5 you yourselves like living stones are being built up as a spiritual house,
Christians are living stones of the spiritual house of God.
to be a holy priesthood, to offer spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ. 6 For it stands in Scripture: “Behold, I am laying in Zion a stone, a cornerstone chosen and precious, and whoever believes in him will not be put to shame.”
Once again, Jesus was the cornerstone, as prophesied in Is 28:16.
Eph 2:
19 So then you are no longer strangers and aliens, but you are fellow citizens with the saints and members of the household of God, 20 built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Christ Jesus himself being the cornerstone, 21 in whom the whole structure, being joined together, grows into a holy temple in the Lord. 22 In him you also are being built together into a dwelling place for God bye the Spirit.
  1. Jesus was the cornerstone (head).
  2. The apostles (Peter) and prophets were the foundation according to the ancient building construction order.
  3. Christians are living stones of this holy temple in the Lord.
In terms of modern building construction, Jesus is the foundation, symbolized by the ancient cornerstone.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Ted-01

Spiritual Jew

Amillennialist
Site Supporter
Oct 12, 2020
8,594
2,863
MI
✟439,914.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
I will attempt a historical-grammatical analysis of the title verses.
Jesus spoke to Peter in Matthew 16:

BDAG:
① bedrock or massive rock formations, rock as distinguished from stones
Jesus used a Greek pun of Πέτρος (Peter) and πέτρᾳ (rock). He graciously used this metaphor, comparing Peter with the church's bedrock.
What did Peter think of this bedrock metaphor?
Nothing much. After he denied Jesus, he learned humility. Instead of identifying himself as the church's bedrock, he always pointed to Jesus as the cornerstone.
The Sanhedrin seized Peter and John. Peter told them in Acts 4:

Strong's Greek: 3037. λίθος (lithos) — 59 Occurrences
This stone was not some rock in the wild.
BDAG:
②ⓐ of stones used in building

BDAG:
① the part of the body that contains the brain, head
② a being of high status, head
ⓑ of things the uppermost part, extremity, end, point, the cornerstone
In ancient construction, the cornerstone was the first stone laid for a structure, often in a corner. It was carefully selected, shaped, and placed because the rest of the building was oriented and aligned according to this stone. Its placement was critical, as it ensured the stability and accuracy of the building’s foundation and structure. Note the order:
  1. cornerstone
  2. foundation
  3. the rest of the up-ground structure.
Peter was not the cornerstone.

Peter recognized that Jesus was the foremost stone and the cornerstone (head). This head stone would be followed by other stones.
1 Peter 2:

Christians are living stones of the spiritual house of God.

Once again, Jesus was the cornerstone, as prophesied in Is 28:16.
Eph 2:

  1. Jesus was the cornerstone (head).
  2. The apostles (Peter) and prophets were the foundation according to the ancient building construction order.
  3. Christians are living stones of this holy temple in the Lord.
In terms of modern building construction, Jesus is the foundation, symbolized by the ancient cornerstone.
Yes, Jesus is the cornerstone of the church and the apostles and prophets, of which Peter was just one, were the foundation (Ephesians 2:19-22).

Putting Peter on a pedestal as the Catholic Church does is an insult to the true Rock and cornerstone of the church, Jesus Christ. The word "rock" in Matthew 16:18 is translated from the Greek word "petra" which refers to a large rock. So, Jesus was no doubt talking about Himself and was likely pointing at Himself when He said "upon this rock I will build my church". He was contrasting Himself with Peter there as the word "Peter" is "petros" in Greek and refers to a smaller rock or stone than the Rock (petra) and cornerstone, Jesus Christ, that the church is built upon . Peter is just one of the apostles and prophets that are the foundation of the church and there is no basis for elevating him above the others as the Catholic Church does.

The same Greek word "petra" that is translated as "rock" in Matthew 16:18 is used in 1 Corinthians 10:4.

1 Corinthians 10:1 Moreover, brethren, I would not that ye should be ignorant, how that all our fathers were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea; 2 And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea; 3 And did all eat the same spiritual meat; 4 And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock (petra) that followed them: and that Rock (petra) was Christ.

And in 1 Peter 2:8 which refers to Jesus as "a rock that makes them fall".

1 Peter 2:7 Now to you who believe, this stone is precious. But to those who do not believe, "The stone the builders rejected has become the cornerstone,” 8 and, “A stone that causes people to stumble and a rock (petra) that makes them fall.”
 
  • Useful
Reactions: tonychanyt
Upvote 0

Leroy Myers

New Member
Feb 13, 2024
4
3
80
Bullhead
✟17,234.00
Country
United States
Faith
SDA
Marital Status
Married
Yes, Jesus is the cornerstone of the church and the apostles and prophets, of which Peter was just one, were the foundation (Ephesians 2:19-22).

Putting Peter on a pedestal as the Catholic Church does is an insult to the true Rock and cornerstone of the church, Jesus Christ. The word "rock" in Matthew 16:18 is translated from the Greek word "petra" which refers to a large rock. So, Jesus was no doubt talking about Himself and was likely pointing at Himself when He said "upon this rock I will build my church". He was contrasting Himself with Peter there as the word "Peter" is "petros" in Greek and refers to a smaller rock or stone than the Rock (petra) and cornerstone, Jesus Christ, that the church is built upon . Peter is just one of the apostles and prophets that are the foundation of the church and there is no basis for elevating him above the others as the Catholic Church does.

The same Greek word "petra" that is translated as "rock" in Matthew 16:18 is used in 1 Corinthians 10:4.

1 Corinthians 10:1 Moreover, brethren, I would not that ye should be ignorant, how that all our fathers were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea; 2 And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea; 3 And did all eat the same spiritual meat; 4 And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock (petra) that followed them: and that Rock (petra) was Christ.

And in 1 Peter 2:8 which refers to Jesus as "a rock that makes them fall".

1 Peter 2:7 Now to you who believe, this stone is precious. But to those who do not believe, "The stone the builders rejected has become the cornerstone,” 8 and, “A stone that causes people to stumble and a rock (petra) that makes them fall.”
 
Upvote 0

Leroy Myers

New Member
Feb 13, 2024
4
3
80
Bullhead
✟17,234.00
Country
United States
Faith
SDA
Marital Status
Married
May I share a different view?
Since Peter is not the principle focus here, let us just remove him from the sentence and ask what rock was Jesus pointing to? Look at the text above and ask yourself if that might be the rock.
Jesus implied that Peter's knowledge did not come from any source other than a divine revelation from the Father in heaven. So, could it be that the rock upon which the church is built is when our Father takes a us to that quiet intimate place and reveals divine truth to us. When God establishes a truth within us it is an unshakable reality. It is as a strong foundation that cannot be moved. Our Creator builds up His church within people all over the world regardless of their religious training and background. He is simply looking for souls who will listen and obey, "My sheep hear my voice and they follow." He desires those who will follow truth where ever it leads and it is accounted unto them for righteousness. They may have some erroneous beliefs but the Father is looking within to find the heart that has been softened by the presence of the Son. Slowly but surely the soul is built up by divine intimacy with his Creator and Redeemer and the devil with all his efforts cannot move a soul who is taught of God.
 
  • Useful
Reactions: tonychanyt
Upvote 0

rturner76

Domine non-sum dignus
Site Supporter
May 10, 2011
11,529
4,030
Twin Cities
✟867,533.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Green
My only comment is the two terms are not opposed to each other. Like the parable of the house build on the sand or on a Rock. The cornerstone is set upon the Rock rather than the sand. Symbolically, that would seem to mean that the cornerstone of what would be the new Universal Church was set upon the Rock who would take over the leadership of the Church. The self-same Church that is laid upon the Cornerstone who is Christ.
 
Upvote 0

Leroy Myers

New Member
Feb 13, 2024
4
3
80
Bullhead
✟17,234.00
Country
United States
Faith
SDA
Marital Status
Married
My only comment is the two terms are not opposed to each other. Like the parable of the house build on the sand or on a Rock. The cornerstone is set upon the Rock rather than the sand. Symbolically, that would seem to mean that the cornerstone of what would be the new Universal Church was set upon the Rock who would take over the leadership of the Church. The self-same Church that is laid upon the Cornerstone who is Christ.
Perhaps I have not been clear. I do not disagree with your comment at all. My point and personal experience is that it is by the intimate communion of the Father that one become a part of the church, a member of the very physical body of the Son. Jesus states that the revelation from the Father is what gave this truth into his heart. The devils know who Jesus was but they are totally devoid of divine revelation. It is not information but revelation. One who is taught of God needs no other teacher. They walk in the light as He is in the light.
 
  • Like
Reactions: tonychanyt
Upvote 0