• Starting today August 7th, 2024, in order to post in the Married Couples, Courting Couples, or Singles forums, you will not be allowed to post if you have your Marital status designated as private. Announcements will be made in the respective forums as well but please note that if yours is currently listed as Private, you will need to submit a ticket in the Support Area to have yours changed.

  • CF has always been a site that welcomes people from different backgrounds and beliefs to participate in discussion and even debate. That is the nature of its ministry. In view of recent events emotions are running very high. We need to remind people of some basic principles in debating on this site. We need to be civil when we express differences in opinion. No personal attacks. Avoid you, your statements. Don't characterize an entire political party with comparisons to Fascism or Communism or other extreme movements that committed atrocities. CF is not the place for broad brush or blanket statements about groups and political parties. Put the broad brushes and blankets away when you come to CF, better yet, put them in the incinerator. Debate had no place for them. We need to remember that people that commit acts of violence represent themselves or a small extreme faction.

Conservative Boast

Ignatius the Kiwi

Dissident
Mar 2, 2013
9,065
4,768
✟360,169.00
Country
New Zealand
Gender
Male
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Single
We find that to be the case in our most sensitive and controversial issues.
To start with, as Christians we all do not even agree on what Christian moral standards are or how to practically apply them to our contemporary daily lives. In a pluralist society where most people no longer identify as Christian, what else are we to do?
Alright, so we've established the principle that human rights Trump Christian morality and can be used to compel Christians and inhibit their freedom to express themselves religiously. Now secular human rights are not derived from God because they are not Christian. Why do you prefer them over Christian morality?
 
Upvote 0

Akita Suggagaki

Well-Known Member
Jul 20, 2018
10,306
7,386
70
Midwest
✟375,892.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
Alright, so we've established the principle that human rights Trump Christian morality and can be used to compel Christians and inhibit their freedom to express themselves religiously. Now secular human rights are not derived from God because they are not Christian. Why do you prefer them over Christian morality?
I don't . Why do you draw that conclusion. Living in a pluralistic society is not about the morality I prefer.
It is about a morality that society must determine for itself.
 
Upvote 0

Ignatius the Kiwi

Dissident
Mar 2, 2013
9,065
4,768
✟360,169.00
Country
New Zealand
Gender
Male
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Single
I don't . Why do you draw that conclusion. Living in a pluralistic society is not about the morality I prefer.
It is about a morality that society must determine for itself.
You do, by your actions, in that you prefer to live in a society which mandates pluralism of religions rather than any particular religious system. It's also a question of whether or not the current model best allows for religions to publicly express themselves since you also believe that human rights trump any religious liberty question. This means that Christians cannot act fully as Christians in the public space so as to equalize everyone.
 
Upvote 0

Akita Suggagaki

Well-Known Member
Jul 20, 2018
10,306
7,386
70
Midwest
✟375,892.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
You do, by your actions, in that you prefer to live in a society which mandates pluralism of religions rather than any particular religious system. It's also a question of whether or not the current model best allows for religions to publicly express themselves since you also believe that human rights trump any religious liberty question. This means that Christians cannot act fully as Christians in the public space so as to equalize everyone.
What society do you live in that you do not have to accommodate public morality standards?
 
Upvote 0

Ignatius the Kiwi

Dissident
Mar 2, 2013
9,065
4,768
✟360,169.00
Country
New Zealand
Gender
Male
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Single
What society do you live in that you do not have to accommodate public morality standards?
All societies have public standards of morality. The question is why do you prefer a secular liberal morality as opposed to a Christian moral framework for society?
 
Upvote 0

Akita Suggagaki

Well-Known Member
Jul 20, 2018
10,306
7,386
70
Midwest
✟375,892.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
All societies have public standards of morality. The question is why do you prefer a secular liberal morality as opposed to a Christian moral framework for society?
Again, why do you come to that conclusion about what I "prefer"? I merely state that reality of our current society. Even Christians do not agree on exactly what a "Christian moral framework" is and how to live it out in concrete situations.

What exactly are you arguing for? Condemnation of homosexuals? Banning abortion? Care for the poor? Civil liberties for all?
also post #26

For a while you were talking about pornography as if there were some obvious consensus about a definition. But you refused to shared it.

You seem to have your own idea of Christian moral norms and expect other to comply with your view.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

Niels

Woodshedding
Mar 6, 2005
17,401
4,742
North America
✟437,425.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
Politics
US-Others
In US politics, people often conflate conservative with Republican and liberal with Democrat. In Christianity, people often conflate conservative with orthodox and liberal with unorthodox. Viewing the terms "liberal" and "conservative" through these lenses can be confusing and misleading without knowing the details.

Conservatives generally prefer to keep things as they are or pine for the way things used to be (which is why MAGA has traction with US conservatives). This is relative however, as the way things used to be in one location isn't necessarily the way things used to be in a different location. As such, a US conservative may have radically different political values than a Russian conservative even if their religious values are similar.

A US Republican might love Patrick Henry's quote "Give me liberty or give me death!", for instance. This sentiment has a long tradition in our country. However, it is a very liberal thing to say. What is being conserved by our US Republican here is a liberal ideal. A Russian conservative, on the other hand, might simply agree with whatever Putin says because they like Russia the way it is and don't want to risk standing out. Preferring to go along to get along.

In politics, researchers usually define “conservativism” as a general tendency to resist change and tolerate social inequality. “Liberalism” means a tendency to embrace change and reject inequality.

Psychologists have long suspected that a few fundamental differences in worldviews might underlie the conservative-liberal rift. Forty years of research has shown that, on average, conservatives see the world as a more dangerous place than liberals do. This one belief seemed to help explain many American conservative stances in policy disagreements, such as support of gun ownership, border enforcement, and increased spending on police and the military—all of which, one can argue, are meant to protect people from a threatening world.

But new research by psychologist Nick Kerry and me at the University of Pennsylvania contradicts that long-standing theory. We find instead that the main difference between the left and the right is whether people believe the world is inherently hierarchical. Conservatives, our work shows, tend to believe more strongly than liberals in a hierarchical world, which is essentially the view that the universe is a place where the lines between categories or concepts matter. A clearer understanding of that difference could help society better bridge political divides.

Interestingly, resisting change and tolerating inequality are very different things. When equality is already assumed or established, changing the status quo means moving towards inequality. This is how something like DEI isn't only opposed by racists, for instance, but by people who previously took for granted that all races were equal and therefore resist the idea of giving certain races special treatment over others.

A strong preference for hierarchy seems to be present on both the far Left and the far Right of the political spectrum. Whether we're talking communists or fascists, there's invariably a class of fat cats at the top of the pyramid calling the shots and potentially trampling the rights of those below them. Liberals, defined here as those who believe in liberty, are on neither the far Left nor the far Right.

Personally, I prefer to keep hierarchy to a minimum. As little as needed to get the job done, as people are inherently equal. Hierarchy at work makes sense to me, for instance, as it's tied to changing levels of experience and expertise, but I don't want hierarchy in my neighborhood. That's why, when I was house-hunting, I picked a home that wasn't in an HOA. I neither want nor need people telling me how to maintain my property. I think too much hierarchy can be worse than none at all, yet my religious views tend to be orthodox.

Whether I personally identify as a conservative or a liberal depends on the situation and what exactly we're talking about. Most of the time, I avoid self identifying as either. With that being said, I do think it's unfortunate that liberal has come to mean something along the lines of "blue haired nose ringed Marxist" and conservative has come to mean something along the lines of "racist abusive fascist". In the US and perhaps elsewhere, a liberal can refer to somebody who values life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness for all, and conservative can refer to somebody who wants to preserve those values.
 
Upvote 0

Akita Suggagaki

Well-Known Member
Jul 20, 2018
10,306
7,386
70
Midwest
✟375,892.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
In US politics, people often conflate conservative with Republican and liberal with Democrat. In Christianity, people often conflate conservative with orthodox and liberal with unorthodox. Viewing the terms "liberal" and "conservative" through these lenses can be confusing and misleading without knowing the details.

Conservatives generally prefer to keep things as they are or pine for the way things used to be (which is why MAGA has traction with US conservatives). This is relative however, as the way things used to be in one location isn't necessarily the way things used to be in a different location. As such, a US conservative may have radically different political values than a Russian conservative even if their religious values are similar.

A US Republican might love Patrick Henry's quote "Give me liberty or give me death!", for instance. This sentiment has a long tradition in our country. However, it is a very liberal thing to say. What is being conserved by our US Republican here is a liberal ideal. A Russian conservative, on the other hand, might simply agree with whatever Putin says because they like Russia the way it is and don't want to risk standing out. Preferring to go along to get along.


Interestingly, resisting change and tolerating inequality are very different things. When equality is already assumed or established, changing the status quo means moving towards inequality. This is how something like DEI isn't only opposed by racists, for instance, but by people who previously took for granted that all races were equal and therefore resist the idea of giving certain races special treatment over others.

A strong preference for hierarchy seems to be present on both the far Left and the far Right of the political spectrum. Whether we're talking communists or fascists, there's invariably a class of fat cats at the top of the pyramid calling the shots and potentially trampling the rights of those below them. Liberals, defined here as those who believe in liberty, are on neither the far Left nor the far Right.

Personally, I prefer to keep hierarchy to a minimum. As little as needed to get the job done, as people are inherently equal. Hierarchy at work makes sense to me, for instance, as it's tied to changing levels of experience and expertise, but I don't want hierarchy in my neighborhood. That's why, when I was house-hunting, I picked a home that wasn't in an HOA. I neither want nor need people telling me how to maintain my property. I think too much hierarchy can be worse than none at all, yet my religious views tend to be orthodox.

Whether I personally identify as a conservative or a liberal depends on the situation and what exactly we're talking about. Most of the time, I avoid self identifying as either. With that being said, I do think it's unfortunate that liberal has come to mean something along the lines of "blue haired nose ringed Marxist" and conservative has come to mean something along the lines of "racist abusive fascist". In the US and perhaps elsewhere, a liberal can refer to somebody who values life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness for all, and conservative can refer to somebody who wants to preserve those values.
Right . It is too easy to label as one or the other and make huge assumptions. But as we see political adds we also see candidates boasting of their conservative views. Sso they wish to label themselves and attract votes for that label. And it seems to me they are usually holding a gun.
 
Upvote 0

o_mlly

“Behold, I make all things new.”
May 20, 2021
3,203
580
Private
✟128,419.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
Conservatives generally prefer to keep things as they are or pine for the way things used to be (which is why MAGA has traction with US conservatives).
Not this conservative.

Conservatives are as progressive as liberals. However, their method to do so are dramatically different.

Liberals have what they genuinely believe to be a good idea. It's sounds so good to them that liberals wish to implement the untested idea at the federal/national level. Conservatives, on the other hand, believe the idea may be good and humans are fallible. So, let's test that idea at the state level to show its efficacy in achieving the intended result.

Imagine a company developing a new product. Lab tests always precede production tests to determine if the "good" idea can be manufactured with existing technology. Production tests determine the costs to produce the "good" idea. Market testing of the "good idea" at a price precedes the product announcement. Scale up continues as long as test results are positive.
 
Upvote 0

Niels

Woodshedding
Mar 6, 2005
17,401
4,742
North America
✟437,425.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
Politics
US-Others
Not this conservative.

Conservatives are as progressive as liberals. However, their method to do so are dramatically different.

Liberals have what they genuinely believe to be a good idea. It's sounds so good to them that liberals wish to implement the untested idea at the federal/national level. Conservatives, on the other hand, believe the idea may be good and humans are fallible. So, let's test that idea at the state level to show its efficacy in achieving the intended result.

Imagine a company developing a new product. Lab tests always precede production tests to determine if the "good" idea can be manufactured with existing technology. Production tests determine the costs to produce the "good" idea. Market testing of the "good idea" at a price precedes the product announcement. Scale up continues as long as test results are positive.
Good point. Taking a conservative approach, thinking new ideas through first, saves time and energy in the long run. Rather than wasting resources on something that won't scale or otherwise isn't feasible. An example of practicality trumping idealism.

Which again goes to show how these words can mean different things to different people at different times. The freedom to start a business and run it how you see fit is a liberal idea, but the way that some use the term, a liberal government might become overly involved with regulating how that business operates. To the point of preventing progressive ideas from being realized. And then there's the difference between technological progress and social progress. Wanting to encourage business ventures while simultaneously discouraging things like child labor and demographic discrimination. This is where I think it becomes more of a Republican vs. Democrat issue than liberal vs. conservative. Or maybe one of personal conscience and faith. Despite being left or right of center, neither party is entirely conservative or liberal, but they have policies that (in an ideal world) should represent the views of the people.
 
Upvote 0

Ignatius the Kiwi

Dissident
Mar 2, 2013
9,065
4,768
✟360,169.00
Country
New Zealand
Gender
Male
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Single
Again, why do you come to that conclusion about what I "prefer"? I merely state that reality of our current society. Even Christians do not agree on exactly what a "Christian moral framework" is and how to live it out in concrete situations.

What exactly are you arguing for? Condemnation of homosexuals? Banning abortion? Care for the poor? Civil liberties for all?
also post #26

For a while you were talking about pornography as if there were some obvious consensus about a definition. But you refused to shared it.

You seem to have your own idea of Christian moral norms and expect other to comply with your view.
Do you consider not recognizing the legitimacy of homosexual 'unions' as a Christian moral norm? Or do you support said unions?

As for pornography. What's the point of discussing with someone who is being deliberately obtuse in refusing to acknowledge what it is for the sake of an argument? You and I both know what pornography is. We both consider it evil and dehumanizing. You support it's being legal. I don't. What more is there to say? Your political principles aren't shaped by your Christianity.
 
Upvote 0

Akita Suggagaki

Well-Known Member
Jul 20, 2018
10,306
7,386
70
Midwest
✟375,892.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
Do you consider not recognizing the legitimacy of homosexual 'unions' as a Christian moral norm? Or do you support said unions?

As for pornography. What's the point of discussing with someone who is being deliberately obtuse in refusing to acknowledge what it is for the sake of an argument? You and I both know what pornography is. We both consider it evil and dehumanizing. You support it's being legal. I don't. What more is there to say? Your political principles aren't shaped by your Christianity.
This is my last response with you unless you get reasonable. It is you who " is being deliberately obtuse in refusing to acknowledge what it is for the sake of an argument." I even tried to help you by providing motion picture rating standards. But you refuse. I do not support it's legalization. i would like to see agreed upon social standards. But then how do we enforce them?

As for same sex unions. There are Christian churches that recognize them. The Methodists for one. probably Presbyterians also. I am Catholic so I do recognize it as a sacrament of the church. But if it is legal and valid, it is legitimate for civil purposes.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

Ignatius the Kiwi

Dissident
Mar 2, 2013
9,065
4,768
✟360,169.00
Country
New Zealand
Gender
Male
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Single
This is my last response with you unless you get reasonable. It is you who " is being deliberately obtuse in refusing to acknowledge what it is for the sake of an argument." I even tried to help you by providing motion picture rating standards. But you refuse. I do not support it's legalization. i would like to see agreed upon social standards. But then how do we enforce them?

It would be easy enough to target the pornography industry and shut it down by preventing the possibility of earning income based on porn. You could also stop access within a country to access porn sites. Would this prevent the truly determined from finding some work around? No, but you'd be impacting the industry and more people than not would be using porn less.

As for same sex unions. There are Christian churches that recognize them. The Methodists for one. probably Presbyterians also. I am Catholic so I do recognize it as a sacrament of the church. But if it is legal and valid, it is legitimate for civil purposes.

Christian Churches which recognize Homosexuality as a legitimate marriage have fallen away from the Christian faith. Your own Church's teaching is right, that homosexuality is intrinsically disordered. So why should society cater to that which is unnatural and contrary to God's will by recognizing a false union?
 
Upvote 0

Akita Suggagaki

Well-Known Member
Jul 20, 2018
10,306
7,386
70
Midwest
✟375,892.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
I'm not against helping the poor, if that is what you are trying to infer.
I am asking a question. We seem to have this spectrum from conservative, rugged individualism on the right to progressive, socialism on the left.
Where is the middle ground?
 
Upvote 0

iarwain

Newbie
Feb 13, 2009
885
527
✟150,419.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
In Relationship
I am asking a question. We seem to have this spectrum from conservative, rugged individualism on the right to progressive, socialism on the left.
Where is the middle ground?
Good question. I suppose somewhere in between helping people who actually need it, and creating a dependency class out of those who don't.
 
Upvote 0