A young priest explains the Lord's Day

Xeno.of.athens · Jul 22, 2024

This is a video-based post. The transcript follows the video.

Transcript

for most Christians Sunday is the day
for worship whether it be around an
altar to celebrate the Lord's Supper or
in an auditorium to give God our praise
Sunday is simply the Lord's Day that is
unless you're among the communities that
worship on Saturday while Christians
have been worshiping on Sunday since
immediately after the resurrection some
have pointed out a problem God
established the Sabbath on Saturday and
never abolished that law why do some of
us worship on Sundays and are we
breaking God's commandment by not
honoring Saturdays
this is Catholicism in focus
[Music]
in the beginning God worked for six days
creating the heavens and the earth the
Seas and all that are in them and on the
seventh day he rested and since God did
this you should do this as well this is
the explanation given in the law as to
why the Jews were to keep holy the
Sabbath based on the first mythological
account of creation found in the book of
Genesis it connects the observers with
the story of our beginnings the power of
God and a desire to be like God
for millennia even up till today Jews
have observed the Sabbath on the seventh
day Saturday keeping it holy with rest
and worship and yet Christians for some
reason ignore the law and worship on
Sundays what gives some have suggested
that it simply switched days that we no
longer observe it on Saturday but it's
still the same Sabbath just celebrated
on Sunday while seemingly logical this
is not correct what is often overlooked
in this issue is the clear distinction
between the official Sabbath and what
came to be known as the Lord's Day you
see after the resurrection the early
Christians continued to observe the
Sabbath on Saturdays because they still
saw themselves as Jews they went to the
synagogue observing the required period
of rest but also began to celebrate a
new feast the Lord's Supper well there
is no mandated time for the celebration
at first and some celebrated it daily
whenever they had a meal it almost
immediately became associated with
Sunday the day of the week when Jesus
was resurrected scripture shows us that
this tradition dates all the way back to
the very first Christians with Saint
Paul speaking of a collection being
taken up and the act of the Apostles
describing the time to break bread both
of which taking place on the first day
of the week this celebration and holy
observance for early Christians was not
confused with the Sabbath nor was an
attempt to transfer it but clearly a new
more important observance by the early
2nd century that dedicate taught only of
the Lord's Day saying nothing of the
Sabbath observance while Saint Ignatius
of Antioch wrote those who lived
according to the old order of things
have come to a new hope no longer
keeping the Sabbath but the Lord's Day
in which our life is blessed by him and
by his death by the mid 4th century this
explanation was taught in an official
Council of the church Christians should
not Judy eyes and should not be idle on
the Sabbath but
work on that day they should however
particularly reverence the Lord's Day
and if possible not work on it because
they are Christians from almost the very
beginning Christians acknowledged that
the Sabbath remained on Saturday and the
Lord's Day was now celebrated on Sunday
so why don't we observe Saturday's as
well then are we not breaking God's
commandment to keep holy the Sabbath
some have suggested that the reason we
don't is because the law no longer
applies that has been abolished and so
is no longer binding on Christians this
is also not correct besides the fact
that Jesus famously preached I did not
come to abolish the law but to fulfill
it the letter to the Hebrews written a
generation after the birth of the church
continues to assert the importance of
the Sabbath therefore a Sabbath rest
still remains for the people of God for
this reason the Catechism of the
Catholic Church reminds the faithful
that the requirement to keep holy the
Sabbath is still very much in effect
devoting thirty-nine canons to
explaining its significance God
entrusted the Sabbath to Israel to keep
as a sign of the irrevocable covenants
the Sabbath is for the Lord holy and set
apart for the praise of God his works of
creation and his saving actions on
behalf of Israel know the Sabbath has
not been abolished but our relationship
with it has definitely changed when we
look to the letters of the New Testament
it's clear that there is a developing
approach to the observance of the law
st. Paul writes in numerous places that
one is not justified by the works of the
law but by Jesus Christ and specific to
this question that such specificities of
the law missed the point of Christ
therefore let no one act as your judge
in regard to food or drink or in respect
to a festival or a new moon or a Sabbath
day things that are a mere shadow of
what is to come but the substance
belongs to Christ
coupled with the fourth Gospels
assertion that Jesus is the true place
of worship and the lord of the sabbath
Christians began to understand the
insistence on this law as not regarding
a particular day but a person as st.
Gregory the Great wrote for us the true
sabbath is the person of our Redeemer
our Lord Jesus Christ for Christians the
Sabbath as a day remains Saturday as
this is what God established eternally
as a remembrance of the first creation
this cannot and does not change rather
the perp
of the Sabbath has been fulfilled in
Christ what matters is not a day of the
week but the object of worship so why
has Sunday become the de-facto day of
observance of the Sabbath when it could
be observed any day of the week the
answer of course has everything to do
with the resurrection it was on a Sunday
that Christ rose from the dead and so it
is on a Sunday that creation came to its
fulfillment
just as Saturday was traditionally
observed as a remembrance of creation
Sunday the 1st and eighth day is a
remembrance of God's final recreation in
Christ it's for this reason that pope
john paul ii wrote in his apostolic
letter on the subject that what God did
in Christ did not abolish the Sabbath
but rather brought its initial meaning
to fruition the Paschal mystery of
Christ is the full revelation of the
mystery of the world's origin the climax
of the history of salvation and the
anticipation of the eschatological
fulfillment of the world what God
accomplished in creation and wrought for
his people in the Exodus has found its
fullest expression in Christ's death and
resurrection though it's definitive
fulfillments will not come until the
parousia when Christ returns in glory in
him the spiritual meaning of the Sabbath
is fully realized
so no Sunday is not the Sabbath but
ignoring Saturday is not a sin either
the Sunday observance of the
resurrection a practice that has been
held in our tradition since the very
first Christians fulfills what God
always intended we are to remember God's
work of creation maintain a spirit of
rest and take part in the holiness of
our Lord could that happen any day of
the week
absolutely the fact that Jesus rose from
the dead on a particular day is of no
consequence next to the fact that he
rose from the dead it's why we as
Catholics celebrate the Lord's
resurrection in the Eucharist nearly
every day of the year as each day is an
opportunity to take part in the life
that he brought us for this reason
groups like the seventh-day Adventists
who insist on observing a Saturday
Sabbath are not wrong per se but they do
miss something in the process the
Sabbath is not a day as much as it is a
person a reminder of creation that is a
weekly observance if we choose to
remember this on Saturday our focus
remains on the first
creation but if we do so on Sunday the
first and eighth day our focus is on the
fulfillment of that creation in Christ
any day that we celebrate God is a good
one and if you ask me none of it makes
any sense without that fulfillment
[Music]

RandyPNW · Jul 22, 2024

Yes, we worship Christ alone. No, we are not under the Law of Moses, including Sabbath Law.

BobRyan · Jul 22, 2024

RandyPNW said:
Yes, we worship Christ alone. No, we are not under the Law of Moses, including Sabbath Law.

Under the Law of Moses we have

"Love God with all your heart - Deut 6:5 -- also in Matt 22 as Christ reminds us.
"Love your neighbor as yourself Lev 19:18 - also in Matt 22 as the second greatest commandment - as Christ reminds us
"Honor your father and mother Ex 20:12 as Paul reminds us in Eph 6:1-2 "the first commandment with a promise"
We also have "Do not take God's name in vain " Ex 20:7 (never quoted from in the NT) but still valid as we all know.

In Matt 19 Jesus said that those who want eternal life should remember to keep God's Commandments -- and then Jesus is asked "which ones?:" -- Jesus quotes exclusively from the Law of Moses in the answer given in Matt 19.
Same thing in James 2.

Rom 3:31 Do we then make void the law through faith? Certainly not! On the contrary, we establish the law."

BobRyan · Jul 22, 2024

Xeno.of.athens said:
For most Christians Sunday is the day
for worship whether it be around an
altar to celebrate the Lord's Supper or
in an auditorium to give God our praise

Xeno.of.athens said:
Sunday is simply the Lord's Day that is
unless you're among the communities that
worship on Saturday while Christians
have been worshiping on Sunday

Christians that keep the 7th day holy because of the Ten Commandments - claim that God's Law cannot be edited.

Xeno.of.athens said:
since
immediately after the resurrection some
have pointed out a problem God
established the Sabbath on Saturday and
never abolished that law why do some of
us worship on Sundays

Indeed it is interesting that there is not one verse in the NT that says week-day-one (which we call Sunday) is the Lord's Day or that we are to gather every week-day-1 to remember the resurrection or to set the day aside as a holy day with no secular activity allowed.

Xeno.of.athens said:
and are we
breaking God's commandment by not
honoring Saturdays
this is Catholicism in focus

The question is this "Remember the Sabbath day to keep it holy" (one of the Ten Commandments). Are we as Christians called to ignore that one??

Xeno.of.athens said:
in the beginning God worked for six days
creating the heavens and the earth the
Seas and all that are in them and on the
seventh day he rested and since God did
this you should do this as well

In Exodus 20 -- the Sabbath commandment ends like this -

11 For in six days the Lord made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the Lord blessed the Sabbath day, and hallowed it. (Made it holy, sanctified it)

Dies Domini - says this -

Dies Domini pt 11

"the rest of the Sabbath..discloses something of the nuptial shape of the relationship which God wants to establish with the creature made in his image, by calling that creature to enter a pact of love".

Dies Domini pt 13 -

"the Sabbath ...is therefore rooted in the depths of God's plan. This is why unlike many other laws - it is not within the context of strictly cultic (Jewish) stipulations but within the Decalogue the "ten words" which represent the very pillars of moral life inscribed on the human heart!! In setting this commandment within the context of the basic structure of ethics, Israel and then the church declare that they consider it not just a matter of community religious discipline but a defining and indelible expression of our relationship to God, announced and expounded by biblical revelations.

Dies Domini

"God blessed the seventh day and made it holy" (Gn 2:3)

13. The Sabbath precept, which in the first Covenant prepares for the Sunday of the new and eternal Covenant, is therefore rooted in the depths of God's plan. This is why, unlike many other precepts, it is set not within the context of strictly cultic (Jewish) stipulations but within the Decalogue, the "ten words" which represent the very pillars of the moral life inscribed on the human heart. In setting this commandment within the context of the basic structure of ethics, Israel and then the Church declare that they consider it not just a matter of community religious discipline but a defining and indelible expression of our relationship with God, announced and expounded by biblical revelation. This is the perspective within which Christians need to rediscover this precept today. Although the precept may merge naturally with the human need for rest, it is faith alone which gives access to its deeper meaning and ensures that it will not become banal and trivialized.

=============================

CCC - Catholic Catechism
2068 The Council of Trent teaches that the Ten Commandments are obligatory for Christians and that the justified man is still bound to keep them;28 The Second Vatican Council confirms: "The bishops, successors of the apostles, receive from the Lord . . . the mission of teaching all peoples, and of preaching the Gospel to every creature, so that all men may attain salvation through faith, Baptism and the observance of the Commandments."

BobRyan · Jul 22, 2024

Xeno.of.athens said:
even up till today Jews
have observed the Sabbath on the seventh
day Saturday keeping it holy with rest
and worship

As do millions of Christians - to this very day.

Xeno.of.athens said:
what is often overlooked
in this issue is the clear distinction
between the official Sabbath and what
came to be known as the Lord's Day you
see after the resurrection the early
Christians continued to observe the
Sabbath on Saturdays

very true -- the first century church did continue to observe Sabbath -- the seventh day..
very true that over time --- (ie going into 2nd and third century week day one came to be known as the Lord's day)

In fact in Acts 18;4 "Every Sabbath" Paul was preaching the gospel in the synagogue to both gentiles and Jews.
In Acts 13 - gentiles after hearing the Gospel in the synagogue on Sabbath - specifically requested that more gospel preaching be given to them "on the next Sabbath" instead of "tomorrow"

Xeno.of.athens said:
there
is no mandated time for the celebration
at first and some celebrated it daily
whenever they had a meal it almost
immediately became associated with
Sunday the day of the week when Jesus
was resurrected scripture shows us that
this tradition dates all the way back to
the very first Christians

True that Sunday is called "week day 1" in the NT (not the Lord's day) and is the day of Christ's resurrection.

hmm "the very first Christians"?? - what about the first century?

No NT text says "gather together for worship every week-day-1"
No NT text says "week day 1 is the Lord's Day"
No NT text says "we gather every week day 1 for corporate worship"
No NT text says "We observe week day 1 instead of the Sabbath (or in addition to the Sabbath) in honor of the resurrection"

Xeno.of.athens said:
with Saint
Paul speaking of a collection being
taken up

Paul never mentions the idea that "a collection should be taken up every week-day-1"

Rather it was of the form - let each one lay by himself at home -- " on the first of every week" some funds to help out the saints in other cities. No mention of corporate gathering or worship each week day 1 in 1 Cor 16

Xeno.of.athens said:
by the early
2nd century that dedicate taught only of
the Lord's Day saying nothing of the
Sabbath observance while Saint Ignatius
of Antioch wrote those who lived
according to the old order of things
have come to a new hope no longer
keeping the Sabbath but the Lord's Day

No doubt over time - things changed from what was being practiced in the first century.

BobRyan · Jul 22, 2024

The Catholic Commentary on the Baltimore Catechism post Vatican II

1965 -- first published 1959

(from "The Faith Explained" by Leo Trese page 243

"we know that in the O.T it was the seventh day of the week - the Sabbath day- which was observed as the Lord's day. that was the law as God gave it...'remember to keep holy the Sabbath day.. the early Christian church determined as the Lord's day the first day of the week. That the church had the right to make such a law is evident...

The reason for changing the Lord's day from Saturday to Sunday lies in the fact that to the Christian church the first day of the week had been made double holy...

"nothing is said in the bible about the change of the Lord's day from Saturday to Sunday..that is why we find so illogical the attitude of many non-Catholic who say they will believe nothing unless they can find it in the bible and yet will continue to keep Sunday as the Lord's day on the say-so of the Catholic church

Xeno.of.athens · Jul 22, 2024

BobRyan said:
No doubt over time - things changed from what was being practiced in the first century.

Catholic Christianity does not aim to revive an ideal from the first century; rather, Catholicism strives to develop and deepen the faith that was definitively entrusted to the saints. This faith is realised in communion with Jesus Christ.

RandyPNW · Jul 22, 2024

BobRyan said:
Under the Law of Moses we have

"Love God with all your heart - Deut 6:5 -- also in Matt 22 as Christ reminds us.
"Love your neighbor as yourself Lev 19:18 - also in Matt 22 as the second greatest commandment - as Christ reminds us
"Honor your father and mother Ex 20:12 as Paul reminds us in Eph 6:1-2 "the first commandment with a promise"
We also have "Do not take God's name in vain " Ex 20:7 (never quoted from in the NT) but still valid as we all know.

As we all know? I thought you were trying to prove something from Scriptures? No, we don't all know this.

As I said, the entirety of the 10 Commandments was a subset of the Law of Moses, which was given to Israel before the cross. It was not given to Gentiles, nor to anyone after the cross.

I don't at all question whether the same principles of morality exist under the New Covenant. God doesn't change His morality ever. But when it comes to Sabbath Law, its moral relevance is determined by pre-NT conceptions, and not by eternal moral values that are unchanging.

The whole sense of rest from work has to do with the unredeemed sin nature, giving the land rest from human sin. But after the cross, even though sin remains, it is now something dealt with by the cross, and requires no need to display rest from work, from Israel or from anybody.

BobRyan said:
In Matt 19 Jesus said that those who want eternal life should remember to keep God's Commandments -- and then Jesus is asked "which ones?:" -- Jesus quotes exclusively from the Law of Moses in the answer given in Matt 19.
Same thing in James 2.

Rom 3:31 Do we then make void the law through faith? Certainly not! On the contrary, we establish the law."

The principle of Law is that Man needed the atonement that only Christ could provide. We could not obtain Eternal Life apart from him.

The Law, therefore, condemned humanity apart from active participation in Christ, the source of our Salvation. To remain connected to that system is to go back to a place where Man is condemned as eternally lost.

That being said the Law was a system of righteousness that God required of Israel. As such, we are still required by God to remain in His righteousness, though apart from the system of Mosaic Law. We follow Christ's commandments, but not the Law which in his time Israel was still subject to.

BobRyan · Jul 22, 2024

Xeno.of.athens said:
by the mid 4th century this
explanation was taught in an official
Council of the church Christians should
not Judy eyes (Judaize?) and should not be idle on
the Sabbath but work on that day

Indeed by the middle of the 4th century they began to pass laws against keeping the Bible Sabbath.
wow -- such a reversal!

Xeno.of.athens said:
from almost the very
beginning Christians acknowledged that
the Sabbath remained on Saturday

Agreed. !!

Xeno.of.athens said:
and the
Lord's Day "was now" celebrated on Sunday

"now" as in ... by the mid-4th century?? or 2nd century?

Xeno.of.athens said:
so why don't we observe Saturday's as
well then are we not breaking God's
commandment to keep holy the Sabbath

very good question. As Christ said "Scripture cannot be broken"

Xeno.of.athens said:
some have suggested that the reason we
don't is because the law no longer
applies that has been abolished and so
is no longer binding on Christians

Indeed that is a very common argument

Xeno.of.athens said:
is also not correct besides the fact
that Jesus famously preached I did not
come to abolish the law but to fulfill
it

amen

Xeno.of.athens said:
the letter to the Hebrews written a
generation after the birth of the church
continues to assert the importance of
the Sabbath therefore a Sabbath rest
still remains for the people of God

absolutely correct.

Xeno.of.athens said:
for
this reason the Catechism of the
Catholic Church reminds the faithful
that the requirement to keep holy the
Sabbath is still very much in effect

amen

Xeno.of.athens said:
devoting thirty-nine canons to
explaining its significance God
entrusted the Sabbath to Israel to keep
as a sign of the irrevocable covenants
the Sabbath is for the Lord holy and set
apart for the praise of God his works of
creation and his saving actions on
behalf of Israel know the Sabbath has
not been abolished

true.

Xeno.of.athens said:
when we
look to the letters of the New Testament
it's clear that there is a developing
approach to the observance of the law
st. Paul writes in numerous places that
one is not justified by the works of the
law

True.
And Gal 1:6-9 points out that there is only ONE Gospel
With that ONE gospel "preached to Abraham" Gal 3:8.
So then in Matt 17 - Moses and Elijah stand in glory with Christ under the "ONE Gospel"

Xeno.of.athens said:
therefore let no one act as your judge
in regard to food or drink or in respect
to a festival or a new moon or a Sabbath
day things that are a mere shadow of
what is to come but the substance
belongs to Christ

Also true before the cross - as we see in Matt 7 "Judge not that you be not judged".
Judging others was condemned both before the cross and afterwards.

Lev 23 - lists the annual "shadow" Sabbath, given in sacrifice and offerings - unlike the Gen 2:1-3 creation Sabbath which was given to Adam without any animal sacrifice as Adam had not yet fallen at that point.

And this is the case in Is 66:23 when even in the New Heavens and the New Earth of Rev 21 "from Sabbath to Sabbath shall ALL MANKIND come before Me to worship"

Xeno.of.athens said:
coupled with the fourth Gospels
assertion that Jesus is the true place
of worship

No NT text say "Jesus is the place of worship"

Xeno.of.athens said:
and the lord of the sabbath

Indeed Mark 2:27 has Jesus as "The Lord of the Sabbath" long before the cross.

Xeno.of.athens said:
Christians began to understand the
insistence on this law as not regarding
a particular day but a person

not in the NT.

Xeno.of.athens said:
as st.
Gregory the Great wrote for us the true
sabbath is the person of our Redeemer
our Lord Jesus Christ

Indeed such a tradition did arise over time.

Xeno.of.athens said:
for Christians the
Sabbath as a day remains Saturday as
this is what God established eternally
as a remembrance of the first creation
this cannot and does not change

absolutely correct!

Xeno.of.athens said:
what matters is not a day of the
week but the object of worship

IT is always true both OT and NT that the Object of our worship - is God Himself.
even before the cross "LOVE me and KEEP My commandments" Ex 20:10
"If you Love Me KEEP My Commandments" John 14:15
"This IS the Love of God that we KEEP His Commandments" 1 John 5:3-4

Xeno.of.athens said:
so why
has Sunday become the de-facto day of
observance of the Sabbath when it could
be observed any day of the week the
answer of course has everything to do
with the resurrection

That tradition of course did come into being over the centuries as you have pointed out.

Xeno.of.athens said:
it was on a Sunday
that Christ rose from the dead

true.

Xeno.of.athens said:
just as Saturday was traditionally
observed as a remembrance of creation
Sunday the 1st and eighth day is a
remembrance of God's final recreation in
Christ

just not in the NT

Xeno.of.athens said:
it's for this reason that pope
john paul ii wrote in his apostolic
letter on the subject that what God did
in Christ did not abolish the Sabbath

That letter is called Dies Domini - I have quoted from it (in this post #4 ) to show that the TEN (all TEN) commandments and particularly the Sabbath is regarded as applicable to all mankind and to be included in the moral law of God according to that document.

Xeno.of.athens said:
so no, Sunday is not the Sabbath

true.

Xeno.of.athens said:
ignoring Saturday is not a sin either

The bible says in 1 John 3:4 "sin IS" (by defintion) "transgression of God's Law" - so we need to "notice" whenever we way something like "xyz is not a sin" where that xyx is a "ignoring this or that commandment" statement.

Xeno.of.athens said:
the Sunday observance of the
resurrection a practice that has been
held in our tradition since the very
first Christians fulfills what God
always intended

What we find among the "very first Christians" is in the NT text. And no NT text speaks of a weekly observation of weekday 1 as the Lord's day or a weekly day of worship etc.

Xeno.of.athens said:
groups like the seventh-day Adventists

who insist on observing a Saturday
Sabbath are not wrong per se

true.

Xeno.of.athens said:
Sabbath is not a day as much as it is a
person

Not according to scripture "The seventh day is the Sabbath of the LORD (YHWH)" Ex 20:10
No text says "Christ is the Sabbath"

BobRyan · Jul 22, 2024

BobRyan said:

Under the Law of Moses we have

"Love God with all your heart - Deut 6:5 -- also in Matt 22 as Christ reminds us.
"Love your neighbor as yourself Lev 19:18 - also in Matt 22 as the second greatest commandment - as Christ reminds us
"Honor your father and mother Ex 20:12 as Paul reminds us in Eph 6:1-2 "the first commandment with a promise"
We also have "Do not take God's name in vain " Ex 20:7 (never quoted from in the NT) but still valid as we all know.

RandyPNW said:
As we all know? I thought you were trying to prove something from Scriptures? No, we don't all know this.

We do not all know that "Do not take God's name in vain" is "still valid"??

It seems you are placing yourself in the group that does not know that is a valid commandment of God - for all humans.
Ok , well you have free will - do you really think we all are confused for accepting that as one of God's commandments??

BobRyan · Jul 22, 2024

RandyPNW said:
As I said, the entirety of the 10 Commandments was a subset of the Law of Moses, which was given to Israel before the cross. It was not given to Gentiles

Eph 6:1-2 - Paul applies it to Christians - where in that unit of TEN "the FIRST commandment with a promise is - Honor your father and mother"
Matt 19 - Christ applies it to Christians
Rom 13 - Paul applies it to Christians
James 2 - James applies it to Christian

RandyPNW said:
, nor to anyone after the cross.

ok so a few texts for you to respond to - then.

RandyPNW said:
I don't at all question whether the same principles of morality exist under the New Covenant.

good that we can agree on something

RandyPNW said:
God doesn't change His morality ever

true.

RandyPNW said:
. But when it comes to Sabbath Law, its moral relevance is determined by pre-NT conceptions, and not by eternal moral values

no NT text says that.

RandyPNW said:
The whole sense of rest from work has to do with the unredeemed sin nature

The saints in glory in Matt 17 standing with Christ -- would of course argue that they were in glory as redeemed saints.
The NEW Covenant Jer 31:31-34 is OLD Testament. And is quoted verbatim unchanged in Heb 8.
"The Gospel was preached to Abraham" Gal 3:8

RandyPNW said:
, giving the land rest from human sin

There never was a land at rest from human sin --either in OT or NT.

BobRyan said:

In Matt 19 Jesus said that those who want eternal life should remember to keep God's Commandments -- and then Jesus is asked "which ones?:" -- Jesus quotes exclusively from the Law of Moses in the answer given in Matt 19.

Same thing in James 2.

Rom 3:31 Do we then make void the law through faith? Certainly not! On the contrary, we establish the law."

RandyPNW said:
The principle of Law is that Man needed the atonement that only Christ could provide. We could not obtain Eternal Life apart from him.

The Law, therefore, condemned humanity apart from active participation in Christ, the source of our Salvation. To remain connected to that system is to go back to a place where Man is condemned as eternally lost.

That being said the Law was a system of righteousness that God required of Israel. As such, we are still required by God to remain in His righteousness, though apart from the system of Mosaic Law. We follow Christ's commandments, but not the Law which in his time Israel was still subject to.

RandyPNW · Jul 23, 2024

BobRyan said:
BobRyan said:

Under the Law of Moses we have

"Love God with all your heart - Deut 6:5 -- also in Matt 22 as Christ reminds us.
"Love your neighbor as yourself Lev 19:18 - also in Matt 22 as the second greatest commandment - as Christ reminds us
"Honor your father and mother Ex 20:12 as Paul reminds us in Eph 6:1-2 "the first commandment with a promise"
We also have "Do not take God's name in vain " Ex 20:7 (never quoted from in the NT) but still valid as we all know.

We do not all know that "Do not take God's name in vain" is "still valid"??

It seems you are placing yourself in the group that does not know that is a valid commandment of God - for all humans.
Ok , well you have free will - do you really think we all are confused for accepting that as one of God's commandments??

What I do know is that you chose to completely disregard the points I made. I said God's moral commandments are eternal, and that the Law of Moses was *not* eternal. Or did you miss that?

Let me give you an example. I give you a list of 10 things to do with a reward for obedience. You do them, and are rewarded. However, it cannot give you the ultimate reward, which is Eternal Life.

But let me say that you failed to keep the 10 things you were entrusted with doing. You do not receive any reward, but instead are rewarded with curses. Not only do you fail to obtain Eternal Life, but you experience negative things in your life due to your disobedience.

Finally, you are given a new set of commandments that now number only nine. These commandments do contain Eternal Life if accepted as a legitimate code of conduct. But there are still curses for disobedience.

However, the absence of the 10th commandment, ie the Sabbath Law, which links it to the entire set, renders them invalid as a means of inheriting Eternal Life.

This is how it is with the Law of Moses. It contained a solid code of conduct, and did reward obedience. But inasmuch as the Sabbath Law reminded Israel that they could not obtain Eternal Life by keeping them they could reward obedience and yet not get Eternal Life.

But now we have a code of conduct requiring the same moral requirements except that Sabbath Law has now been removed because of its failure to give Israel Eternal Life. The Sabbath Law connected the 10 Commandments to the Law of Moses, whereas the other 9 commandments were eternal moral requirements, unconnected to the Law of Moses. That is, they were not integrally connected, even though they were identical, in some respects, with them.

The point is, the 9 commandments are not integrally connected to the Law because they do not stand as a subset of the Law, but only as a number of identical moral requirements. While the Law was in effect it was moral to obey all 10 Commandments. But once Christ had atoned for sin, it was moral not to obey Sabbath Law but rather, to accept Christ's work for the failure of our own works.

It was the Sabbath Law amidst the other 9 commandments that connected all 10 Commandments together as a set attached to the Law. And this connection renders obedience to the Law incapable of obtaining Eternal Life.

On the other hand, obeying Christ in everything, including the other 9 commandments, does bring rewards, and along with them, Eternal Life. This contains the same moral values as contained in the Law of Moses, but does obtain Eternal Life--not by our works, but by the works of Christ.

As long as all 10 Commandments stood together as a set, and were not divisible as individual moral requirements, they were identified as a subset of the Law and supported the prohibition upon Israel receiving Eternal Life. But once Christ had atoned for sin, those individual requirements could be parsed up and distinguished from the Law of Moses, requiring righteousness via Christ and not via the requirements of the Law.

RandyPNW · Jul 23, 2024

BobRyan said:
There never was a land at rest from human sin --either in OT or NT.

The Sabbath Law intended to show that even though human works could be obedience and obtain rewards it did fall short of obtaining Eternal Life. Even though in the NT era Christians still have sin, they do have Eternal Life, not on the basis of their own works of atonement, but rather, on the work of Christ's atonement.

There is therefore no need for Israel, nor for anybody, to replicate our need for Christ's work of atonement by practicing Sabbath observance. It was never intended to be a requirement for non-Hebrews, let alone for those who have accepted Christ's work of atonement for their own flawed works.

BobRyan said:
BobRyan said:

In Matt 19 Jesus said that those who want eternal life should remember to keep God's Commandments -- and then Jesus is asked "which ones?:" -- Jesus quotes exclusively from the Law of Moses in the answer given in Matt 19.

Same thing in James 2.

Rom 3:31 Do we then make void the law through faith? Certainly not! On the contrary, we establish the law."

We keep Christ's commandments under the NT standard. We do not keep God's commandments that refer specifically to our disqualification for Eternal Life. All forms of atonement, apart from Christ's atonement, are woefully inadequate for providing that.

James would encourage us, as would Paul, to obey Christ under NT provisions. We are not lawless as Christians, but rather, lawful.

Under the Law, Jesus indicated every requirement was still in effect. But after his death, lawfulness consists of attendance to the righteousness of Christ, who never was subject to the Law.

He lived under the Law as an example to Israel. He was baptized in water, not because he needed to be purified as a sinner, but rather, to show Israel what he had come to do for them, which was to purify them of the guilt of sin.

Faith in Christ's atonement verifies the message of the Law, which was that man cannot self-atone, but needs to live righteousness in Christ so that his atonement can be applied to us. Then we can obtain Eternal Life.

BobRyan · Jul 23, 2024

RandyPNW said:
The Sabbath Law intended to show that even though human works could be obedience and obtain rewards it did fall short of obtaining Eternal Life.

In the OT "From Sabbath to Sabbath shall all mankind come before Me to worship" Is 66:23 in the NEW Earth - for all eternity after the cross.
In the NT "IF you Love Me KEEP My Commandments" John 14:15
In the OT "Love Me and KEEP My Commandments" Ex 20:6

There is nothing in OT or NT about the idea that keeping God's commandments is to reject grace or seek salvation by works.

"This IS the Love of God that we KEEP His Commandments" 1 John 5:3
"the saints KEEP the Commandments of God AND their faith in Jesus" Rev 14:12

In the NT "SIN IS transgression of God's Law" 1 John 3:4 -- still
1 John 2:1 "These things I write to you that you SIN NOT"

The Gospel is not an endorsement of rebellion against God's Word.

RandyPNW said:
Even though in the NT era Christians still have sin, they do have Eternal Life

Amen - just as Moses and Elijah in Matt 17 before the cross.
Just as the Heb 11 list of OT saints.
"The Gospel was preached to us just as to them" Heb 4:2
There is only ONE Gospel Gal 1:6-9

RandyPNW said:
, not on the basis of their own works of atonement, but rather, on the work of Christ's atonement.

Heb 10:4 the blood of bulls and goats never provided forgiveness of sins -- it was always the blood of Christ in the OT. Which is the only way that Moses and Elijah stand in glory with Christ in Matt 17 -- before the cross.

RandyPNW said:
There is therefore no need for Israel, nor for anybody, to replicate our need for Christ's work of atonement

indeed.

But not taking God's name in vain, and keeping God's Sabbath holy is not a form of "rejecting the atonement of Christ" -- and never was.

Rather it is our response to the New Covenant "Law written on the heart" in Jer 31 and in Heb 8 -- unchanged, the same OT and NT

RandyPNW said:
by practicing Sabbath observance. It was never intended to be a requirement for non-Hebrews,

Mark 2:27 "The Sabbath was made for MANKIND"
Is 66:23 "from Sabbath to Sabbath shall ALL MANKIND come before Me to worship" for all eternity after the cross in the New Earth

RandyPNW said:
We keep Christ's commandments under the NT standard. We do not keep God's commandments

John 14 "I speak NO word of MY OWN"
10 Do you not believe that I am in the Father, and the Father in Me? The words that I speak to you I do not speak on My own authority; but the Father who dwells in Me does the works. 11 Believe Me that I am in the Father and the Father in Me, or else believe Me for the sake of the works themselves.

1 Cor 7:19 "what matters is KEEPING God's Commandments"
"This IS the Love of God that we KEEP His Commandments" 1 John 5:3
"the saints KEEP the Commandments of God AND their faith in Jesus" Rev 14:12

RandyPNW said:
James would encourage us, as would Paul, to obey Christ under NT provisions. We are not lawless as Christians, but rather, lawful.

James quote exclusively from the LAW of Moses - primarily from the TEN in James 2

RandyPNW said:
Under the Law, Jesus indicated every requirement was still in effect.

So then "If you Love Me KEEP My Commandments" includes the TEN in John 14:15 even by your own standard

RandyPNW said:
But after his death, lawfulness consists of attendance to the righteousness of Christ, who never was subject to the Law.

The NT says Christ did not sin and the NT says "SIN IS transgression of the LAW" 1 John 3:4
Rom 3:31 Do we then make void the law through faith? Certainly not! On the contrary, we establish the law.

Eph 6:1-2
Children, obey your parents in the Lord, for this is right. 2 “Honor your father and mother,” which is the first commandment with promise:

only in the TEN is that the "first commandment with a promise"

RandyPNW said:
He lived under the Law as an example to Israel

1 John 2:
3 Now by this we know that we know Him, if we keep His commandments. 4 He who says, “I know Him,” and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. 5 But whoever keeps His word, truly the love of God is perfected in him. By this we know that we are in Him. 6 He who says he abides in Him ought himself also to walk just as He walked.

RandyPNW said:
. He was baptized in water, not because he needed to be purified as a sinner, but rather, to show Israel what he had come to do for them, which was to purify them of the guilt of sin.

We too are baptized as the NT people of God just as Christ was -- Rom 6:1-6.

BobRyan · Jul 23, 2024

RandyPNW said:
What I do know is that you chose to completely disregard the points I made. I said God's moral commandments are eternal, and that the Law of Moses was *not* eternal. Or did you miss that?

Christ's teaching is that God's commandments in Ex 20 are part of the Law of Moses.

Mark 7:

6 He answered and said to them, “Well did Isaiah prophesy of you hypocrites, as it is written:
‘This people honors Me with their lips,
But their heart is far from Me.
7 And in vain they worship Me,
Teaching as doctrines the commandments of men.’

8 For laying aside the commandment of God, you hold the tradition of men—the washing of pitchers and cups, and many other such things you do.”
9 He said to them, “All too well you reject the commandment of God, that you may keep your tradition. 10 For Moses said, ‘Honor your father and your mother’; and, ‘He who curses father or mother, let him be put to death.’ 11 But you say, ‘If a man says to his father or mother, “Whatever profit you might have received from me is Corban”—’ (that is, a gift to God), 12 then you no longer let him do anything for his father or his mother, 13 making the word of God of no effect through your tradition which you have handed down. And many such things you do.”

RandyPNW said:
Let me give you an example. I give you a list of 10 things to do with a reward for obedience. You do them, and are rewarded. However, it cannot give you the ultimate reward, which is Eternal Life.

On the contrary in Rom 3 all have sinned - no one but Christ kept God's Commandments perfectly. All need salvation but even for those under the New Covenant - it is a sin to take God's name in vain.... still

RandyPNW said:
Finally, you are given a new set of commandments that now number only nine. These commandments do contain Eternal Life

No amount of Lev 19:18 "Love your neighbor as yourself" will get the lost person saved. Same with "do not take God's name in vain"
The Law whether OT or NT is not a replacement for the Gospel.
No NT text says we only have nine commandments.

RandyPNW said:
However, the absence of the 10th commandment, ie the Sabbath Law

The only commandment never quoted from in the NT is "do not take God's name in vain".
The Sabbath is quoted in the NT repeatedly.

And is to be kept for all eternity after the cross by "all mankind" Is 66:23.

RandyPNW said:
. But inasmuch as the Sabbath Law reminded Israel that they could not obtain Eternal Life by keeping them

No such statement is given in either OT or NT - any more than "do not take God's name in vain" shows that man must take God's name in vain.

RandyPNW said:
But now we have a code of conduct requiring the same moral requirements except that Sabbath

No text says that.

IN fact Heb 4 specifically says "There REMAINS Therefore a SABBATH rest for the people of God"
Sabbath is to be kept for all eternity after the cross by "all mankind" Is 66:23.

RandyPNW said:
Law has now been removed because of its failure to give Israel Eternal Life.

neither "do not take God's name in vain" nor "Honor your father and mother" had the ability to "give man eternal life"

RandyPNW said:
The Sabbath Law connected the 10 Commandments to the Law of Moses, whereas the other 9 commandments were eternal moral

No text OT or NT says that.

The New Covenant of Jer 31:31-34 and Heb 8 affirms the Law of God just as it is.
Sabbath is to be kept for all eternity after the cross by "all mankind" Is 66:23. And is part of that moral law of God -- in the TEN.

And this fact of "all TEN" is not just affirmed by me -- but it is in the documents for almost every Christian denomination on Earth.

Almost every Christian denomination on Earth affirms the continued *"unit of TEN" for Christians today
[*]The Baptist Confession of Faith section 19
[*]The Westminster Confession of Faith section 19
[*]Voddie Baucham
[*]C.H. Spurgeon
[*]D.L. Moody
[*]Dies Domini by Pope John Paul II
[*]D. James Kennedy
[*]R.C. Sproul
[*]many others as well..

RandyPNW · Jul 23, 2024

BobRyan said:
In the OT "From Sabbath to Sabbath shall all mankind come before Me to worship" Is 66:23 in the NEW Earth - for all eternity after the cross.

OT language always uses the language of the Law, because in that era the Law was still required. So it is essentially saying, in NT terms, that all our work, from week to week, will be devoted to God in worship.

It does not at all mean that Sabbaths will continue to be observed, since all of our work has been rejected as invalid with respect to Eternal Life. When we come to Christ, our work has been sanctified by his Spirit.

There is no longer any need to rest from our works since in the new age we will be free from sin. Rest from our works implies the need to give a break to our compromised Sin Nature. It is to acknowledge that the only work of value is that which we do in God, who made the universe.

BobRyan said:
In the NT "IF you Love Me KEEP My Commandments" John 14:15
In the OT "Love Me and KEEP My Commandments" Ex 20:6

As I said, keeping God's commandments have always been God's moral standard. However, what we are commanded to do may change over time. In the OT Israel was commanded to keep the whole Law. In the NT we are commanded to follow Christ--not Moses. Moses was only designed to lead Israel to Christ.

BobRyan said:
There is nothing in OT or NT about the idea that keeping God's commandments is to reject grace or seek salvation by works.

On the contrary, the corruption of human works is what brought on the wish for God to have Israel rest on the Sabbath. God had rested after creation. Now God wished Israel to rest from the conflict created by sin.

Due to Israel's sins they had to fight paganism in the land of their promise. Rest indicated they had won the war, if only temporarily. If sin entered, once again, into the people of Israel, they were excommunicated or exiled so that the land could experience the rest God desired Israel to experience.

It is simple NT theology to understand that Paul taught Salvation is apart from our own works. Atonement comes only by the works of Christ. We must enter into his ways to be saved. We cannot earn, by works, our own Salvation from death and separation from God.

BobRyan said:
The Gospel is not an endorsement of rebellion against God's Word.

I never entertained such an idea! You're going down a different rabbit hole.

BobRyan said:
Heb 10:4 the blood of bulls and goats never provided forgiveness of sins -- it was always the blood of Christ in the OT.

That is not true. The blood of animals provided a temporary atonement for sin. It did not *permanently* take away sins, or *completely* remove our Sin Nature. But blood was the means by which God kept Israel's obedience acceptable to Him until Christ came to offer his own life for sin.

BobRyan said:
But not taking God's name in vain, and keeping God's Sabbath holy is not a form of "rejecting the atonement of Christ" -- and never was.

For some reason you appear to be incapable of recognizing my point, that the 10 Commandments can be offered as a complete set and subset of the Law or as individual requirements not attached to the Law? When the 10 Commandments are broken up into individual requirements they can be separated into 2 groups, either attached to the Law by necessity or separable from the Law as eternal moral requirements.

Such requirements as "not taking the Lord's name abusively" is an eternal requirement and can be either attached to the Law or applied separately. The Sabbath Law of necessity is attached to the Law or to standards that are prior to the cross of Christ.

BobRyan said:
Rather it is our response to the New Covenant "Law written on the heart" in Jer 31 and in Heb 8 -- unchanged, the same OT and NT

No, Jeremiah indicated in the same passage that the Law would be changed. It would not be like the Law of Sinai.

BobRyan said:
Mark 2:27 "The Sabbath was made for MANKIND"
Is 66:23 "from Sabbath to Sabbath shall ALL MANKIND come before Me to worship" for all eternity after the cross in the New Earth

Use of Sabbath language in the OT was OT language. It does not imply anything more than rest would be expanded to all nations from Israel's hope of eternal rest from their enemies. The fact it applies to all nations indicates it is *not* the Law of Moses, which applied only to Israel. It may have to do with rest from warfare or with the purification of human works.

BobRyan said:
John 14 "I speak NO word of MY OWN"
10 Do you not believe that I am in the Father, and the Father in Me? The words that I speak to you I do not speak on My own authority; but the Father who dwells in Me does the works. 11 Believe Me that I am in the Father and the Father in Me, or else believe Me for the sake of the works themselves.

1 Cor 7:19 "what matters is KEEPING God's Commandments"
"This IS the Love of God that we KEEP His Commandments" 1 John 5:3
"the saints KEEP the Commandments of God AND their faith in Jesus" Rev 14:12

You are confusing the commandments Jesus referred to before the cross with commandments required of Christians after the cross. They are not the same.

BobRyan said:
James quote exclusively from the LAW of Moses - primarily from the TEN in James 2

James used the only Bible they had in his time, which was the Law of Moses. But he understood that it had been fulfilled in the life of Christ, which is the spiritual life that we must put on. It carries the same moral requirements, but it does not require anything that had to do with pre-Christian means of atonement.

BobRyan said:
So then "If you Love Me KEEP My Commandments" includes the TEN in John 14:15 even by your own standard

What Jesus said while still under the Law did have to do with the 10 Commandments. But this requirement that the entire Law be kept was temporary only up until the cross, when Christ performed his work of atonement for us. Now all we need do is abide in him and in his moral laws.

BobRyan said:
The NT says Christ did not sin and the NT says "SIN IS transgression of the LAW" 1 John 3:4
Rom 3:31 Do we then make void the law through faith? Certainly not! On the contrary, we establish the law.

Conceptually sin is opposing God's word, or His general law of morality. It is not just Israel opposing to the Law of Moses. Other nations sinned and did not even have the Law of Moses!

BobRyan said:
Eph 6:1-2
Children, obey your parents in the Lord, for this is right. 2 “Honor your father and mother,” which is the first commandment with promise:

only in the TEN is that the "first commandment with a promise"

The concept of reward for moral living is retained in the NT. As I said, some moral requirements can be separated from the Law and applied *in Christ.*

BobRyan said:
1 John 2:
3 Now by this we know that we know Him, if we keep His commandments. 4 He who says, “I know Him,” and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. 5 But whoever keeps His word, truly the love of God is perfected in him. By this we know that we are in Him. 6 He who says he abides in Him ought himself also to walk just as He walked.

We too are baptized as the NT people of God just as Christ was -- Rom 6:1-6.

We are baptized into Christ and into his works. Works done by the Law of Moses needed to have eternal sanctification, which comes only by our being baptized into Christ. All works done by the Law of Moses, or apart from Christ's atonement, are rejected by God has disqualified from Eternal Life. We cannot obtain our own Salvation--we must choose to live in Christ and in his works alone.

BobRyan · Jul 23, 2024

BobRyan said:

In the OT "From Sabbath to Sabbath shall all mankind come before Me to worship" Is 66:23 in the NEW Earth - for all eternity after the cross.

1 Cor 7:19 "what matters is KEEPING God's Commandments"
"This IS the Love of God that we KEEP His Commandments" 1 John 5:3
"the saints KEEP the Commandments of God AND their faith in Jesus" Rev 14:12

Where "the first commandment with a promise" is "honor your father and mother" Eph 6:2 - in that still valid unit-of-Ten

So then - "Love me and keep My Commandments" Ex 20:6
And Jesus saying "if you Love Me Keep My Commandments" John 14:15

RandyPNW said:
OT language always uses the language of the Law

So then it is no wonder that in the NEW Covenant of Jer 31:31-34 and also in Heb 8
"I will make a NEW Covenant... THIS IS the Covenant I will make..I will write My LAW on their heart and mind..." etc.

RandyPNW said:
, because in that era the Law was still required.

like this?
1 Cor 7:19 "what matters is KEEPING God's Commandments"

RandyPNW said:
So it is essentially saying, in NT terms, that all our work, from week to week, will be devoted to God in worship.

No text says that about the Sabbath in OT or NT

RandyPNW said:
It does not at all mean that Sabbaths will continue to be observed

On the contrary --
In the OT "From Sabbath to Sabbath shall all mankind come before Me to worship" Is 66:23 in the NEW Earth - for all eternity after the cross.

RandyPNW said:
, since all of our work has been rejected as invalid with respect to Eternal Life.

A fact that does not delete "do not take God's name in vain" or any of the other "Commandments of God" as per 1 Cor 7:19

RandyPNW said:
When we come to Christ, our work has been sanctified by his Spirit.

yep

RandyPNW said:
There is no longer any need to rest from our works

not true. We do not vacuum the church during worship service no matter that we are born-again while doing it.
So then we enjoy the rest. It was "made FOR mankind" Mark 2:27 -- it is a blessing to have an entire day devoid of secular work, and available to mankind for rest and for worship.

In the Sabbath commandment even our domesticated animals are blessed by having rest on that day.

RandyPNW said:
since in the new age we will be free from sin.

Adam and Eve were free from sin in Gen 2:1-3 when the Sabbath was given - sanctified , made a holy day "for mankind".
Ex 20:11 also points this out.

RandyPNW said:
Rest from our works implies the need to give a break to our compromised Sin Nature.

Nothing in the Sabbath commandment says our work is sin. Mowing the law is not a sin.

RandyPNW said:
It is to acknowledge that the only work of value is that which we do in God

Also true in all ages - so then in Ex 20:8-11 and in Gen 2:1-3

RandyPNW said:
As I said, keeping God's commandments have always been God's moral standard.

True.

So then - not taking God's name in vain - was always the right thing to do.

RandyPNW said:
However, what we are commanded to do may change over time. In the OT Israel was commanded to keep the whole Law. In the NT we are commanded to follow Christ

One Gospel in both OT and NT Gal 1:6-9 and that Gospel was "preached to Abraham" Gal 3:8.

As already noted --

1 Cor 7:19 "what matters is KEEPING God's Commandments"
"This IS the Love of God that we KEEP His Commandments" 1 John 5:3
"the saints KEEP the Commandments of God AND their faith in Jesus" Rev 14:12

Where "the first commandment with a promise" is "honor your father and mother" Eph 6:2 - in that still valid unit-of-Ten

So then - "Love me and keep My Commandments" Ex 20:6
And Jesus saying "if you Love Me Keep My Commandments" John 14:15

RandyPNW said:
On the contrary, the corruption of human works is what brought on the wish for God to have Israel rest on the Sabbath

nope.

We find the Sabbath in Gen 2:1-3 BEFORE sin entered the world
"The Sabbath made FOR mankind" Mark 2:27 -- not as a curse, and not because of man's sin.

RandyPNW said:
. God had rested after creation.

which is why He made the 7th day Sabbath a holy day at creation week - Gen 2:1-3 ad Ex 20:11 reminds the reader.

RandyPNW said:
It is simple NT theology to understand that Paul taught Salvation is apart from our own works.

A key feature of the one and only Gospel Gal 1:6-9 -- "preached to Abraham" Gal 3:8
As Heb 4:2 says "2 For indeed the gospel was preached to us as well as to them;"

RandyPNW said:
Atonement comes only by the works of Christ.

True in both OT and NT which is how we see Moses and Elijah in Matt 17 - standing in glory with Christ -- before the cross event happens.
It is how we find all the giants of faith in Heb 11 - being such saints all during the OT.

RandyPNW said:
We must enter into his ways to be saved. We cannot earn, by works, our own Salvation from death and separation from God.

A key feature of the one and only Gospel Gal 1:6-9 -- "preached to Abraham" Gal 3:8
As Heb 4:2 says "2 For indeed the gospel was preached to us as well as to them;"

RandyPNW said:
The blood of animals provided a temporary atonement for sin. It did not *permanently* take away sins, or *completely* remove our Sin Nature.

Heb 10:4 " For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and goats could take away sins."

It was always the blood of Christ.

RandyPNW said:
the 10 Commandments can be offered as a complete set and subset of the Law or as individual requirements not attached to the Law? When the 10 Commandments are broken up into individual requirements they can be separated into 2 groups, either attached to the Law by necessity or separable from the Law as eternal moral requirements.

No such text in all of scripture.

Rather in James 2 "he who is guilty of breaking one - is guilty of breaking all"

8 If you really fulfill the royal law according to the Scripture, “You shall love your neighbor as yourself,” you do well; 9 but if you show partiality, you commit sin, and are convicted by the law as transgressors. 10 For whoever shall keep the whole law, and yet stumble in one point, he is guilty of all. 11 For He who said, “Do not commit adultery,” also said, “Do not murder.” Now if you do not commit adultery, but you do murder, you have become a transgressor of the law.

as we see in James 2 -- the obligation is based on "He who said" being the same , rather than based on "man who has a preference to keep or not keep"

RandyPNW said:
Such requirements as "not taking the Lord's name abusively" is an eternal requirement and can be either attached to the Law or applied separately.

The is true of all the TEN - they are included in the moral law of God as almost all major Christian denominations affirm.

RandyPNW said:
No, Jeremiah indicated in the same passage that the Law would be changed. It would not be like the Law of Sinai.

Jer 31 and Heb 8 do not say "the LAW will be changed" it says the covenant is different between the nation covenant and the new covenant.

But "the LAW" in Jer 31 is "MY Law" -- the Commandments of God.

Jeremiah's readers knew about Deut 5:22 saying that "God spoke these ten words and added no more" -- they had no hint that they could slice or dice the commandments of God written on the heart. Exegesis requires that we notice these Bible details.

Only within the that Deut 5:22 distinct unit of TEN can it be said "the first commandment with a promise is - Honor your father and mother" Eph 6:2. No scriptural basis for downsizing below Ten.

RandyPNW · Jul 23, 2024

BobRyan said:
So then it is no wonder that in the NEW Covenant of Jer 31:31-34 and also in Heb 8
"I will make a NEW Covenant... THIS IS the Covenant I will make..I will write My LAW on their heart and mind..." etc.

Jer 31.32 It will not be like the covenant
I made with their ancestors
when I took them by the hand
to lead them out of Egypt,
because they broke my covenant,

The New Covenant will "not be like the covenant." Did you get that? It will not be the Law of Moses!
John 1.17 For the Law was given through Moses; grace and truth came through Jesus Christ."

BobRyan said:
like this?
1 Cor 7:19 "what matters is KEEPING God's Commandments"

No text says that about the Sabbath in OT or NT

God's Commandments are not synonymous with the Mosaic Law. It is context that determines what is meant by "God's Commandments." In the NT era, "God's Commandments" no longer reference the Law of Moses as something we are under. Rather, we remain under God's Commandments in the same sense that we are to abide in Christ.

BobRyan said:
On the contrary --
In the OT "From Sabbath to Sabbath shall all mankind come before Me to worship" Is 66:23 in the NEW Earth - for all eternity after the cross.

I already showed you that "Sabbath" here transcends the Law of Moses, having a different meaning. Applying it to the Gentile world indicates it applies only in the sense that the world will be at rest.

BobRyan said:
We do not vacuum the church during worship service no matter that we are born-again while doing it.

Don't know what you mean?

BobRyan said:
So then we enjoy the rest. It was "made FOR mankind"

Jesus indicated the Sabbath was of service to Israel before the cross. It was not intended to restrict good deeds from being done when necessary.

BobRyan said:
In the Sabbath commandment even our domesticated animals are blessed by having rest on that day.

Adam and Eve were free from sin in Gen 2:1-3 when the Sabbath was given - sanctified , made a holy day "for mankind".
Ex 20:11 also points this out.

No it doesn't point that out. Sabbath Law was post-Fall commandment, even though it was patterned after the pre-Fall creation of the world. Man had fallen from what God had intended to be rest for mankind. Man had fallen into the need to work at resisting sin and enemies while awaiting final redemption.

BobRyan said:
Nothing in the Sabbath commandment says our work is sin.

False. The entire Law assumes the sinful, fallen state of Man requires remedying. The fact Israel's works required purification is obvious from the laws requiring regular sacrifice.

BobRyan said:
So then - not taking God's name in vain - was always the right thing to do.

Right. We are *never* to misrepresent God to anyone. If we are to claim to be Christian we must act Christian. That is a universal law--not necessarily attached to the Law of Moses.

It was true even before the Law was given. Man was created to live in the image of God. Moral requirements preexisted the Law of Moses. The Law simply restated what had already been true. And these things remain true after the Law of Moses. Sabbath Law, however, is not an eternal requirement.

BobRyan said:
One Gospel in both OT and NT Gal 1:6-9 and that Gospel was "preached to Abraham" Gal 3:8.

You misunderstand. The Gospel was preached "in advance." The Gospel did not come until Christ proclaimed it as his cross. It was "proclaimed" in advance. But it took effect only *after the cross!* That's where our atonement took place--not before!

BobRyan said:
True in both OT and NT which is how we see Moses and Elijah in Matt 17 - standing in glory with Christ -- before the cross event happens.

In the Transfiguration, Jesus' disciples are specifically told that Jesus is the exclusive authority, as opposed to Moses and Elijah. "Listen to Jesus," the voice said.

BobRyan said:
Heb 10:4 " For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and goats could take away sins."

You misunderstand. The author of Hebrews was arguing that although the blood of animals could temporarily mitigate the problem of separating Israel from God, it could not *permanently* remove sin. The Sin Nature cannot condemn us when we embrace Christ as our life.

BobRyan said:
Rather in James 2 "he who is guilty of breaking one - is guilty of breaking all"

Yes, the Law was given to show that ultimate redemption was not possible under the Law of Moses. Final redemption required the atonement of Christ--his work, and not ours. Our work must be done *through Christ.*

BobRyan said:
8 If you really fulfill the royal law according to the Scripture, “You shall love your neighbor as yourself,” you do well; 9 but if you show partiality, you commit sin, and are convicted by the law as transgressors. 10 For whoever shall keep the whole law, and yet stumble in one point, he is guilty of all. 11 For He who said, “Do not commit adultery,” also said, “Do not murder.” Now if you do not commit adultery, but you do murder, you have become a transgressor of the law.

The principle of sin is as true in the NT era as it was in the OT era. To be living by the principle of righteousness does not require that anybody be still under the Law of Moses! We only need to live in Christ, which is a new and different covenant than the covenant given at Sinai.

BobRyan said:
The is true of all the TEN - they are included in the moral law of God as almost all major Christian denominations affirm.

Many denominations were concerned about doctrinal position rather than theology. The Catholics wanted to reaffirm their moral authority in their own hierarchy. The Protestants wanted to establish that their rebellion against the RCC was not to oppose Christian righteousness.

Luther began by declaring that justification is by having faith in Christ, and not by the works of the Law. His reference to the 10 Commandments are therefore a reminder that Christ fulfilled these 10 Commandments in his own sinless life, which was *not* under the Law. He was sinless and did not require the means of redemption offered by the Law.

BobRyan said:
Jer 31 and Heb 8 do not say "the LAW will be changed" it says the covenant is different between the nation covenant and the new covenant.

Same thing. A "different covenant" is a "changed covenant."

BobRyan said:
But "the LAW" in Jer 31 is "MY Law" -- the Commandments of God.

Jeremiah's readers knew about Deut 5:22 saying that "God spoke these ten words and added no more" -- they had no hint that they could slice or dice the commandments of God written on the heart. Exegesis requires that we notice these Bible details.

On the contrary. Even some of the Jewish rabbis today recognize that the Law would be changed in the Restoration. Keeping every jot and tittle of the Law was meant to maintain a strict standard of morality apart from any kind of rationalization. It was not meant to say that the process of redemption would never come to an end.

eleos1954 · Jul 23, 2024

Xeno.of.athens said:
This is a video-based post. The transcript follows the video.

Transcript
for most Christians Sunday is the day
for worship whether it be around an
altar to celebrate the Lord's Supper or
in an auditorium to give God our praise
Sunday is simply the Lord's Day that is
unless you're among the communities that
worship on Saturday while Christians
have been worshiping on Sunday since
immediately after the resurrection some
have pointed out a problem God
established the Sabbath on Saturday and
never abolished that law why do some of
us worship on Sundays and are we
breaking God's commandment by not
honoring Saturdays
this is Catholicism in focus
[Music]
in the beginning God worked for six days
creating the heavens and the earth the
Seas and all that are in them and on the
seventh day he rested and since God did
this you should do this as well this is
the explanation given in the law as to
why the Jews were to keep holy the
Sabbath based on the first mythological
account of creation found in the book of
Genesis it connects the observers with
the story of our beginnings the power of
God and a desire to be like God
for millennia even up till today Jews
have observed the Sabbath on the seventh
day Saturday keeping it holy with rest
and worship and yet Christians for some
reason ignore the law and worship on
Sundays what gives some have suggested
that it simply switched days that we no
longer observe it on Saturday but it's
still the same Sabbath just celebrated
on Sunday while seemingly logical this
is not correct what is often overlooked
in this issue is the clear distinction
between the official Sabbath and what
came to be known as the Lord's Day you
see after the resurrection the early
Christians continued to observe the
Sabbath on Saturdays because they still
saw themselves as Jews they went to the
synagogue observing the required period
of rest but also began to celebrate a
new feast the Lord's Supper well there
is no mandated time for the celebration
at first and some celebrated it daily
whenever they had a meal it almost
immediately became associated with
Sunday the day of the week when Jesus
was resurrected scripture shows us that
this tradition dates all the way back to
the very first Christians with Saint
Paul speaking of a collection being
taken up and the act of the Apostles
describing the time to break bread both
of which taking place on the first day
of the week this celebration and holy
observance for early Christians was not
confused with the Sabbath nor was an
attempt to transfer it but clearly a new
more important observance by the early
2nd century that dedicate taught only of
the Lord's Day saying nothing of the
Sabbath observance while Saint Ignatius
of Antioch wrote those who lived
according to the old order of things
have come to a new hope no longer
keeping the Sabbath but the Lord's Day
in which our life is blessed by him and
by his death by the mid 4th century this
explanation was taught in an official
Council of the church Christians should
not Judy eyes and should not be idle on
the Sabbath but
work on that day they should however
particularly reverence the Lord's Day
and if possible not work on it because
they are Christians from almost the very
beginning Christians acknowledged that
the Sabbath remained on Saturday and the
Lord's Day was now celebrated on Sunday
so why don't we observe Saturday's as
well then are we not breaking God's
commandment to keep holy the Sabbath
some have suggested that the reason we
don't is because the law no longer
applies that has been abolished and so
is no longer binding on Christians this
is also not correct besides the fact
that Jesus famously preached I did not
come to abolish the law but to fulfill
it the letter to the Hebrews written a
generation after the birth of the church
continues to assert the importance of
the Sabbath therefore a Sabbath rest
still remains for the people of God for
this reason the Catechism of the
Catholic Church reminds the faithful
that the requirement to keep holy the
Sabbath is still very much in effect
devoting thirty-nine canons to
explaining its significance God
entrusted the Sabbath to Israel to keep
as a sign of the irrevocable covenants
the Sabbath is for the Lord holy and set
apart for the praise of God his works of
creation and his saving actions on
behalf of Israel know the Sabbath has
not been abolished but our relationship
with it has definitely changed when we
look to the letters of the New Testament
it's clear that there is a developing
approach to the observance of the law
st. Paul writes in numerous places that
one is not justified by the works of the
law but by Jesus Christ and specific to
this question that such specificities of
the law missed the point of Christ
therefore let no one act as your judge
in regard to food or drink or in respect
to a festival or a new moon or a Sabbath
day things that are a mere shadow of
what is to come but the substance
belongs to Christ
coupled with the fourth Gospels
assertion that Jesus is the true place
of worship and the lord of the sabbath
Christians began to understand the
insistence on this law as not regarding
a particular day but a person as st.
Gregory the Great wrote for us the true
sabbath is the person of our Redeemer
our Lord Jesus Christ for Christians the
Sabbath as a day remains Saturday as
this is what God established eternally
as a remembrance of the first creation
this cannot and does not change rather
the perp
of the Sabbath has been fulfilled in
Christ what matters is not a day of the
week but the object of worship so why
has Sunday become the de-facto day of
observance of the Sabbath when it could
be observed any day of the week the
answer of course has everything to do
with the resurrection it was on a Sunday
that Christ rose from the dead and so it
is on a Sunday that creation came to its
fulfillment
just as Saturday was traditionally
observed as a remembrance of creation
Sunday the 1st and eighth day is a
remembrance of God's final recreation in
Christ it's for this reason that pope
john paul ii wrote in his apostolic
letter on the subject that what God did
in Christ did not abolish the Sabbath
but rather brought its initial meaning
to fruition the Paschal mystery of
Christ is the full revelation of the
mystery of the world's origin the climax
of the history of salvation and the
anticipation of the eschatological
fulfillment of the world what God
accomplished in creation and wrought for
his people in the Exodus has found its
fullest expression in Christ's death and
resurrection though it's definitive
fulfillments will not come until the
parousia when Christ returns in glory in
him the spiritual meaning of the Sabbath
is fully realized
so no Sunday is not the Sabbath but
ignoring Saturday is not a sin either
the Sunday observance of the
resurrection a practice that has been
held in our tradition since the very
first Christians fulfills what God
always intended we are to remember God's
work of creation maintain a spirit of
rest and take part in the holiness of
our Lord could that happen any day of
the week
absolutely the fact that Jesus rose from
the dead on a particular day is of no
consequence next to the fact that he
rose from the dead it's why we as
Catholics celebrate the Lord's
resurrection in the Eucharist nearly
every day of the year as each day is an
opportunity to take part in the life
that he brought us for this reason
groups like the seventh-day Adventists
who insist on observing a Saturday
Sabbath are not wrong per se but they do
miss something in the process the
Sabbath is not a day as much as it is a
person a reminder of creation that is a
weekly observance if we choose to
remember this on Saturday our focus
remains on the first
creation but if we do so on Sunday the
first and eighth day our focus is on the
fulfillment of that creation in Christ
any day that we celebrate God is a good
one and if you ask me none of it makes
any sense without that fulfillment
[Music]

Jesus created the 7th day Sabbath ... blessed it and made it holy (separated from all other days) a day to enjoy with Him ... Sunday is a man made "created" day .... people keep the 7th day Sabbath out of their love of Jesus and for no other reasons .... in fact that is true of all His commandments ... kept out of love. We do indeed stumble here and there.

John 14:21
Whoever has My commandments and keeps them is the one who loves Me. The one who loves Me will be loved by My Father, and I will love him and reveal Myself to him."

It's the 4th commandment.

Question: If Jesus had not kept the 4th commandment would it had been a sin?

Yes everything was and is fulfilled in Jesus .... He kept ALL the commandments.

Yeshua HaDerekh · Jul 23, 2024

RandyPNW said:
Jer 31.32 It will not be like the covenant
I made with their ancestors
when I took them by the hand
to lead them out of Egypt,
because they broke my covenant,

The New Covenant will "not be like the covenant." Did you get that? It will not be the Law of Moses!
John 1.17 For the Law was given through Moses; grace and truth came through Jesus Christ."

The principle of sin is as true in the NT era as it was in the OT era. To be living by the principle of righteousness does not require that anybody be still under the Law of Moses! We only need to live in Christ, which is a new and different covenant than the covenant given at Sinai.

Why do you quote and leave out the most important part?? Do you understand what happened at the last supper? The 1st covenant was broken the second will NOT be broken, that is the difference. I will put My law in their inward parts, and in their heart will I write it; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people...

A young priest explains the Lord's Day

I will give you the keys of the Kingdom of heaven.

Transcript​

Well-Known Member

Junior Member

Junior Member

Junior Member

Junior Member

I will give you the keys of the Kingdom of heaven.

Well-Known Member

Junior Member

Junior Member

Junior Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Junior Member

Junior Member

Well-Known Member

Junior Member

Well-Known Member

God is Love

Transcript​

Men dream of truth, find it then cant live with it

Similar threads

Transcript

Transcript