Separation of Church and State – Answering Critics

BobRyan · Jul 8, 2024

o_mlly said:
The First Amendment prohibits the Federal government from establishing a national religion.

The Tenth Amendment -- "The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the states, are reserved to the states respectively, or to the people" -- patently permits the individual states to establish a state religion, as many states did initially.

Through somewhat tortured logic, the Fourteenth Amendment has by some been interpreted to prevent state established religions.

Section 1.

All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the state wherein they reside. No state shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any state deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws.

So then the right to worship God according to the dictates of the person's conscience -- appears to be "a liberty" that each person enjoys under the constitution.

o_mlly said:
However, the recent Dobbs v. Jackson Women’s Health Organization returned to the individual states the power to regulate abortions.

Indeed. And states may enforce speed limits, and has the right to revoke driver's licenses etc.

o_mlly said:
The founders envisioned IMO a very small footprint for the Federal government's involvement in the daily life of the country's citizenry.

agreed.

o_mlly said:
Unfortunately, today that is not the case. A continued effort to return to the states the power to govern will allow Christian values to inform legislators (short of establishing a state religion), eg., Louisiana's Ten Commandment Bill.

United States of America rather than just "America".
A republic of federated states.

Seems to be the original intent.

=================

from: The History of the Separation of Church and State in the US

"Many of the Founding Fathers personally chafed at the way the Anglican church — not their church — was entangled in the governmental affairs of Britain and wanted to be sure to be able to worship in their own way. And on a very practical level, they saw how diverse their new country already was, and by guaranteeing everyone the right to worship in his or her own way they could avoid the religious conflict that had raged across Europe. Those views became central to the country’s self image."

It is one thing to argue for restricting state or federal government from forcing everyone to be Anglican, or forcing everyone to pay taxes to the Anglican church. It is another thing to say that Church institutions cannot be tax exempt or that Christianity cannot be promoted in government Holidays , "God bless America", "on nation under God", "In God we trust" - "endowed by our Creator with certain unalienable rights.."

The Barbarian · Jul 8, 2024

Ignatius the Kiwi said:
Is loyalty to the US government loyalty to God?

Romans 13:1
Let every soul be subject to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and the authorities that exist are appointed by God.

Hebrews 13:17 Obey them that have the rule over you, and submit yourselves: for they watch for your souls, as they that must give account, that they may do it with joy, and not with grief: for that is unprofitable for you.

o_mlly · Jul 9, 2024

BobRyan said:
Section 1.
All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the state wherein they reside. No state shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any state deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws.

So then the right to worship God according to the dictates of the person's conscience -- appears to be "a liberty" that each person enjoys under the constitution.

Yes, freedom of religion is a logical interpretation of the 22nd Amendment's text, not freedom from religion. Do you see anything in the text that could be construed to prohibit Louisiana's "Ten Commandments Law"? Atheists will likely argue that the law violates their "privilege" to be free from religion.

BobRyan · Jul 9, 2024

o_mlly said:
Yes, freedom of religion is a logical interpretation of the 22nd Amendment's text, not freedom from religion.

Agreed. There are a lot of appeals to our Creator God in the founding documents of this nation.

o_mlly said:
Do you see anything in the text that could be construed to prohibit Louisiana's "Ten Commandments Law"?

No. They are promoting the Ten by saying that historically the Ten Commandments play a role in the founding of this nation, which I think is a valid observation.

o_mlly said:
Atheists will likely argue that the law violates their "privilege" to be free from religion.

True. But that would mean they view America as "an atheist nation - free FROM Christianity and all other religion".

Which I view as a bit of a bend-and-wrench of our founding documents and founders themselves.

Dale · Jul 10, 2024

o_mlly said:
The First Amendment prohibits the Federal government from establishing a national religion.

The Tenth Amendment -- "The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the states, are reserved to the states respectively, or to the people" -- patently permits the individual states to establish a state religion, as many states did initially.

Through somewhat tortured logic, the Fourteenth Amendment has by some been interpreted to prevent state established religions. However, the recent Dobbs v. Jackson Women’s Health Organization returned to the individual states the power to regulate abortions.

The founders envisioned IMO a very small footprint for the Federal government's involvement in the daily life of the country's citizenry. Unfortunately, today that is not the case. A continued effort to return to the states the power to govern will allow Christian values to inform legislators (short of establishing a state religion), eg., Louisiana's Ten Commandment Bill.

Hello, o_milley, since I don’t think I have met you on CF before. Thanks for your interest in this topic.

o_milley: << The Tenth Amendment -- "The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the states, are reserved to the states respectively, or to the people" -- patently permits the individual states to establish a state religion, as many states did initially. >>

Powers not delegated to the Federal government are reserved to the states or the people. What you are overlooking is that the religion clause of the First Amendment leaves the right to choose a religion with every citizen, every person. That’s “reserved … to the people.” As I explained in the OP, James Madison secured the passage of the Virginia Statute for Religious Freedom, and Madison also wrote the First Amendment. To know what he meant in the religion clause we only need to read the Virginia Statute for Religious Freedom. The Statute specifically says that no one should be forced to give financial support to a church they don’t believe in. In that light, the state churches in the early years of the Republic were unconstitutional.

While the Federal government was originally intended to have a “small footprint” as you put it, the understanding of Americans has evolved. As Rick Burns told us in his famous video series on the Civil War, before the Civil War, the United States was plural, but after the Civil War, the United States became singular.

Dale · Jul 10, 2024

o_mlly said:
The First Amendment prohibits the Federal government from establishing a national religion.

The Tenth Amendment -- "The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the states, are reserved to the states respectively, or to the people" -- patently permits the individual states to establish a state religion, as many states did initially.

Through somewhat tortured logic, the Fourteenth Amendment has by some been interpreted to prevent state established religions. However, the recent Dobbs v. Jackson Women’s Health Organization returned to the individual states the power to regulate abortions.

The founders envisioned IMO a very small footprint for the Federal government's involvement in the daily life of the country's citizenry. Unfortunately, today that is not the case. A continued effort to return to the states the power to govern will allow Christian values to inform legislators (short of establishing a state religion), eg., Louisiana's Ten Commandment Bill.

O_milley, you mention Louisiana’s Ten Commandments law. I notice that Governor Landry misunderstands the place of the Ten Commandments in history.

<< “Look, when the Supreme Court meets, the doors of the Supreme Court on the backside have the Ten Commandments. Moses faces the U.S. Speaker of the House in the House chamber. He is the original giver of law,” Landry said. >>

Historically, Moses is not the original giver of law. The Babylonian King Hammurabi issued the Code of Hammurabi hundreds of years before the Ten Commandments. Respectable scholars believe that the Code of Hammurabi is a thousand years older than the Ten Commandments. I don’t like to see our schools and our laws upended by someone who can’t get the simplest fact right.

Links
Governor Landry
https://thehill.com/homenews/state-watch/4734128-louisiana-ten-commandments-law-jeff-landry-defends/
Code of Hammurabi
Code of Hammurabi: Laws & Facts | HISTORY

o_mlly · Jul 11, 2024

Dale said:
Hello, o_milley, since I don’t think I have met you on CF before. Thanks for your interest in this topic.

Thank you.

Dale said:
What you are overlooking is that the religion clause of the First Amendment leaves the right to choose a religion with every citizen, every person.

? I didn't overlook that freedom of religion is an explicit right in the amendment.

Dale said:
As I explained in the OP, James Madison secured the passage of the Virginia Statute for Religious Freedom, and Madison also wrote the First Amendment. To know what he meant in the religion clause we only need to read the Virginia Statute for Religious Freedom.

Jefferson initiated the draft of the statute. More importantly, The Virginia Statute for Religious Freedom consisted of 733 words and, in the tension between federalists and anti-federalists at the convention, the First Amendment was distilled to be only 45 words. Madison as writer but not author of a compromised First Amendment must be acknowledged.

Dale said:
The Statute specifically says that no one should be forced to give financial support to a church they don’t believe in. In that light, the state churches in the early years of the Republic were unconstitutional.

The First Amendment does not deny the states to establish a religion and, therefore, such legislation was constitutional.

Dale said:
While the Federal government was originally intended to have a “small footprint” as you put it, the understanding of Americans has evolved. As Rick Burns told us in his famous video series on the Civil War, before the Civil War, the United States was plural, but after the Civil War, the United States became singular.

With all due respect to Burns' opinion on post-Civil War politics, the USA was not singular after the war. Reconstruction was one of the most turbulent and controversial eras in American history.

o_mlly · Jul 11, 2024

Dale said:
Historically, Moses is not the original giver of law. The Babylonian King Hammurabi issued the Code of Hammurabi hundreds of years before the Ten Commandments. Respectable scholars believe that the Code of Hammurabi is a thousand years older than the Ten Commandments. I don’t like to see our schools and our laws upended by someone who can’t get the simplest fact right.

In context, Moses delivered the Ten Commandments as authored by God. I don't think Hammurabi's code had the same author.

Dale · Jul 14, 2024

o_mlly said:
In context, Moses delivered the Ten Commandments as authored by God. I don't think Hammurabi's code had the same author.

I am pointing out that Louisiana’s Governor Landry says that it is history, and he is wrong about the history.

Why would Christians want the Ten Commandments posted everywhere? Let’s look at what the text of the Ten Commandments says. They are given in Exodus 20 and again in Deuteronomy 5. The Ten Commandments are introduced this way in Exodus.

And God spoke all these words:
“I am the LORD your God, who brought you out of Egypt,
out of the land of slavery.”
Exodus 20:1-2 NIV

In Deuteronomy, they are introduced with these words.

“I am the LORD your God, who brought you out of Egypt,
out of the land of slavery.”
Deuteronomy 5:6 NIV

The Ten Commandments are given to the Israelites, to the Jews. They aren’t addressed to the whole world. They aren’t addressed to all nations. Nowhere in the New Testament are Christians told to follow the Ten Commandments. So why would Christians post them in every classroom?

MForbes · Jul 14, 2024

Dale said:
I am pointing out that Louisiana’s Governor Landry says that it is history, and he is wrong about the history.

Why would Christians want the Ten Commandments posted everywhere? Let’s look at what the text of the Ten Commandments says. They are given in Exodus 20 and again in Deuteronomy 5. The Ten Commandments are introduced this way in Exodus.

And God spoke all these words:
“I am the LORD your God, who brought you out of Egypt,
out of the land of slavery.”
Exodus 20:1-2 NIV

In Deuteronomy, they are introduced with these words.

“I am the LORD your God, who brought you out of Egypt,
out of the land of slavery.”
Deuteronomy 5:6 NIV

The Ten Commandments are given to the Israelites, to the Jews. They aren’t addressed to the whole world. They aren’t addressed to all nations. Nowhere in the New Testament are Christians told to follow the Ten Commandments. So why would Christians post them in every classroom?

Because we as Christians should be obeying the OT commandments. Well.....not all of them. We should keep Sunday holy, not Saturday. And it's OK for the "men of god" to engage in adulterous relationships, as long as they say they're sorry when they get caught so we can keep them in the pulpit.

Oh yeah, and it's OK to eat pork and lobster because that part of the OT only applies to Israelites. Yeah, all of the 613 commandments in the OT don't apply to us. At least that's what my pastor and the experts in my denomination and this forum say because they're listening to the holy spirit.

o_mlly · Jul 14, 2024

Dale said:
I am pointing out that Louisiana’s Governor Landry says that it is history, and he is wrong about the history.

No, Landry is correct: the "deliverer" is also the "giver".

"'He [Moses] is the original giver of law,' Landry said.“

Dale said:
The Ten Commandments are given to the Israelites, to the Jews. They aren’t addressed to the whole world. They aren’t addressed to all nations. Nowhere in the New Testament are Christians told to follow the Ten Commandments. So why would Christians post them in every classroom?

? Matthew 5:17-19, Matthew 28:19-20.

Dale · Jul 18, 2024

o_mlly said:
Thank you.

? I didn't overlook that freedom of religion is an explicit right in the amendment.

Jefferson initiated the draft of the statute. More importantly, The Virginia Statute for Religious Freedom consisted of 733 words and, in the tension between federalists and anti-federalists at the convention, the First Amendment was distilled to be only 45 words. Madison as writer but not author of a compromised First Amendment must be acknowledged.

The First Amendment does not deny the states to establish a religion and, therefore, such legislation was constitutional.

With all due respect to Burns' opinion on post-Civil War politics, the USA was not singular after the war. Reconstruction was one of the most turbulent and controversial eras in American history.

O_mlly: “Jefferson initiated the draft of the statute. More importantly, The Virginia Statute for Religious Freedom consisted of 733 words and, in the tension between federalists and anti-federalists at the convention, the First Amendment was distilled to be only 45 words. Madison as writer but not author of a compromised First Amendment must be acknowledged.”

This is partly true but the Bill of Rights wasn’t voted at the Constitutional Convention. It was discussed by the First Congress, when George Washington was President and James Madison was a member of the House of Representatives. It may be that the First Amendment came out as 45 words because they saw the value of brevity. Versions passed by the House of Representatives used the phrase “rights of conscience.” It is not clear that Congress ever rejected this concept even though that phrase is not in the final version.

<< ... the House considered the amendment providing that “no State shall infringe the equal rights of conscience,” along with other rights. Madison “conceived this to be the most valuable amendment in the whole list,” again arguing it was necessary to prevent both state and federal governments from infringing “these essential rights.” Ultimately, the version passed by the House on August 24 read: “Congress shall make no law establishing religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; nor shall the rights of conscience be infringed.” The House also passed the amendment providing that “[n]o state shall infringe . . . the rights of conscience.” >>

In the end, the Senate and House passed different versions of the First Amendment and the differences were resolved by a Conference Committee. Unfortunately we have no record of the proceedings of the Conference Committee.

<< A joint committee was appointed to resolve the differences between the Chambers, and although there is no surviving record of the committee debate, on September 24, 1789, it reported the text that would become the First Amendment ... >>

Source
Constitutional Convention, Ratification, and the Bill of Rights

Historians agree that the influence of James Madison on the Bill of Right is difficult to exaggerate.

<< James Madison drafted most of the Bill of Rights. Madison was a Virginia representative who would later become the fourth president of the United States. He created the Bill of Rights during the 1st United States Congress, which met from 1789 to 1791 – the first two years that President George Washington was in office. >>

Source
https://www.history.com/topics/united-states-constitution/first-amendment

o_mlly · Jul 18, 2024

Dale said:
This is partly true but the Bill of Rights wasn’t voted at the Constitutional Convention.

? The statute I referred to as authored by Jefferson is The Virgina Statute. I didn't write that the Bill of Rights was voted on at the Constitutional Convention.

The final draft was a compromise arrived at by the federalists and anti-federalists.

More importantly, the Bill of Rights was voted on because w/o it the statesmen knew that the Constitution could not be ratified by the states.

Dale said:
It may be that the First Amendment came out as 45 words because they saw the value of brevity.

Not according to the government archives. Rather, it was the brevity of the proposed Constitution and the anti-federalist arguments that the Bill of Rights issue was initiated.

Constitution of the United States—A History

A More Perfect Union: The Creation of the U.S. Constitution Enlarge General George Washington He was unanimously elected president of the Philadelphia convention. May 25, 1787, freshly spread dirt covered the cobblestone street in front of the Pennsylvania State House, protecting the men inside...

www.archives.gov

The call for a bill of rights had been the anti-Federalists' most powerful weapon. Attacking the proposed Constitution for its vagueness and lack of specific protection against tyranny, ... The anti-Federalists, demanding a more concise, unequivocal Constitution, one that laid out for all to see the right of the people and limitations of the power of government, claimed that the brevity of the document only revealed its inferior nature.

Dale said:
It is not clear that Congress ever rejected this concept even though that phrase is not in the final version.

I think the more logical assumption is the concept was rejected precisely because the phrase is not in the final version.

Dale said:
James Madison drafted most of the Bill of Rights.

As a federalist favoring a strong central government, Madison only became convinced that absent a Bill of Rights the Constitution would fail state ratification.

Ibid:

Even Thomas Jefferson, generally in favor of the new government, wrote to Madison that a bill of rights was "what the people are entitled to against every government on earth." By the fall of 1788 Madison had been convinced that not only was a bill of rights necessary to ensure acceptance of the Constitution but that it would have positive effects.

Madison's draft consisted of 17 amendments. The one of interest to us in this thread in Madison's draft was Article3.

Constitution of the United States—A History

A More Perfect Union: The Creation of the U.S. Constitution Enlarge General George Washington He was unanimously elected president of the Philadelphia convention. May 25, 1787, freshly spread dirt covered the cobblestone street in front of the Pennsylvania State House, protecting the men inside...

www.archives.gov

Subsequently, the Bill of Rights was reduced to the 10 we know today. Madison draft Article 3 survived as written on religious freedom.

Thanks for the links.

So, if Louisiana citizens through its representative government legislated that the Ten Commandments be posted in its schools, it appears the Constitution supports such state authority to do so.

Ignatius the Kiwi · Jul 18, 2024

Dale said:
I am pointing out that Louisiana’s Governor Landry says that it is history, and he is wrong about the history.

Why would Christians want the Ten Commandments posted everywhere? Let’s look at what the text of the Ten Commandments says. They are given in Exodus 20 and again in Deuteronomy 5. The Ten Commandments are introduced this way in Exodus.

And God spoke all these words:
“I am the LORD your God, who brought you out of Egypt,
out of the land of slavery.”
Exodus 20:1-2 NIV

In Deuteronomy, they are introduced with these words.

“I am the LORD your God, who brought you out of Egypt,
out of the land of slavery.”
Deuteronomy 5:6 NIV

The Ten Commandments are given to the Israelites, to the Jews. They aren’t addressed to the whole world. They aren’t addressed to all nations. Nowhere in the New Testament are Christians told to follow the Ten Commandments. So why would Christians post them in every classroom?

Can you explain why as Christians we shouldn't follow the first commandment to love God with all our heart and minds?

MPaul · Jul 20, 2024

The Supreme Court made the meaning of the First Amendment "Separation of Church and State" in Everson v. Board of Education, 1947. Before 1947, the meaning of the First Amendment was "In a Free and Fair Debate, the Truth Will Win," (as Jesus Christ is Lord); (This is a definition of Denominationalism. That's right, the First Amendment is an expression of Denominationalism - and the Amendment is a basis for Americans to seek truth, not a method to keep their mouths shut about God). The Supreme Court used a definition of Separation of Church and State that never existed in history, and it established Secular Humanism as our national religion, setting out a revised history as the basis. Yes, that history in the court case is not how it happened, but the Court made a special version. They were able to do this, as Americans no longer kept up with the true historical basis of the Amendment and had no idea what was going on; and in fact, most Christians in America have no idea what denominationalism is or how historically it brought peace and unity to all Christianity. The true basis of the Amendment began with the huge debate between William Tyndale and Sir Thomas Moore on the right of any person to own a bible, with Tyndale setting out the principles of democracy upon which our country was founded. It appears Tyndale's sister was a direct descendant of James Madison, the architect of the Constitution. But in general the political ideas of the Amendment came about during the English Reformation and were carried over to America. The Court made no reference at all to the true history of the Amendment and never addressed how it is an expression of denominationalism. Some people are setting out the truth about the basis of the Amendment, but it is a huge undertaking, so much propaganda abounding.

This is a discussion that could go on forever. For a good introduction to the truth of the matter, see From Tyndale to Madison, How the Death of an English Martyr Led to the American Bill of Rights, by Michael Farris.

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