Biden is weighing whether to continue in the race

MrMoe · Jul 10, 2024

A2SG said:
You mean manipulating the law in his favor,

Still counts as applying the law. I hope you're not naive enough to believe Trump is the only one that has manipulating the law in his favor.

Funny thing is millions of Americans believe this is exactly what Democrats did regarding Trump's recent conviction.

A2SG said:
because he doesn't want to be held accountable for his criminal acts. Because the law shouldn't apply to him, but it should apply to everyone else. "Lock her up" and all that. And yes, that is a direct quote.

And he didn't locker up. I wonder why.

A2SG said:
Not entirely. Remember, I did exclude Lex's genius intellect.

No I don't remember something you never mentioned. I can't read minds. That also doesn't make the comparison to a fictional supervillain any less ridiculous.

A2SG said:
Well, for official acts only. It's more than it really should be, far as I'm concerned, but less than Trump was hoping for, I'd wager.

Trump got what he wanted, that's all we can assume. Anything else beyond that is pure speculation.

A2SG said:
And Trump as well, every single one.

A2SG said:
Well, the plagiarism bit may be questionable, he might have skirted the line on that one. Barely.

It's not questionable. It's on video posted by the Washington Post, a left leaning journal.

A2SG said:
So a wash on that stuff, but Trump still comes out ahead on criminal convictions, guilty verdicts of fraud and further indictments.

And if all those are successfully appealed does that mean Biden then takes the lead?

A2SG said:
Still, you're free to vote for whomever you choose.

You keep telling me this like I don't already know this.

A2SG said:
Nope. At least, not until he's convicted at a second trial, or for some other charge.

It's seems you've already judged him guilty on that second trail.

A2SG said:
Same for Trump. Trump's been called a racist for decades for various things, and his narcissism is painfully evident all over the place.

Justin Nix on X: And let me preemptively add: don't make me tap the sign. https://t.co/W2Ny6qNMLd / X

A2SG said:
So, if those things bother you, I imagine you'll be voting third party this November, right?

I would if I was an American.

A2SG said:
They have that right. Many people excuse criminals for all kinds of reasons.

Not caring isn't the same as making excuses. By that logic you're making excuses for Biden's lies, racism etc. by voting for him.

A2SG said:
I, personally, will not chose to vote for a convicted felon to be President, but I recognize some may feel differently.

I thought racism was the worst thing ever for left wingers. It must be only when a right wingers do it.

A2SG said:
I guess it depends on how many actually got away with it, something we can't know. You're free to assume any figure you wish to, of course.

We can't know but we can take an educated guess.

A2SG said:
A real world example of something not happening?

Fine. Trump was charged for a felony, falsifying business documents in the first degree, and found guilty, despite the fact that other people have committed worse crimes, like mass murder, rape, etc.

To be clear, you're claiming that hasn't happened?

A2SG said:
Yeah, we disagree on these things. I know that. Disagreeing doesn't mean one or the other of us is necessarily wrong, though. We could simply see things differently.

Definitions aren't subjective.

A2SG said:
For example, you seem to ascribe certain negative traits to Joe Biden, and condemn him for them...but Donald Trump exhibits the exact same traits, and you choose instead to defend him. You have every right to do this, of course, just don't expect me to agree with your defense of Trump.

That's called having a double standard. And I don't defend Trump on things I condemn Biden for. I condemn them both equally.

A2SG said:
Nah, I simply quoted his lawyer's legal argument.

"Someone who argues for absolute immunity from criminal prosecution sure sounds like someone who doesn't think the law should apply to him." Was your argument not the lawyers.

A2SG said:
I can't imagine anyone worse than Trump, frankly.

It's pretty easy to imagine. Just imagine a Democrat with all the exact same traits and did the exact same things you dislike about Trump. Would you vote for them then?

A2SG said:
Who do you have in mind?

Joe Biden and Kamala Harris.

A2SG said:
As we've concluded, everyone lies. Some more than others. Trump continues to spread the lie that the 2020 election was stolen, and that lie had far more serious repercussions than your example had.

So....why complain about one lie, but not the other, far more serious one?

Because this thread is about Biden not Trump. And I do condemn Trump for continuing that lie.

A2SG said:
Not really. Until you brought up the media out of the blue, we were discussing the differences between Biden and Trump.

It was relevant to the conversation about Biden's lies. You on the other hand keep using the "But Trump" Card to try and deflect attention away from Biden's wrongdoings.

A2SG said:
Fine. So don't vote for either one of them.

Or do. Your call.

As I've said, everyone lies...so no matter who you vote for, you're voting for someone who has lied at one time or another. I guess it's up to you to decide which lies matter, and which don't.

-- A2SG, not trying to sway you one way or the other....

Do you believe there are people who exist who don't want to lie and want to be honest and people should vote for them instead of using the cop out excuse of "everyone lies"?

A2SG · Jul 10, 2024

MrMoe said:
Still counts as applying the law. I hope you're not naive enough to believe Trump is the only one that has manipulating the law in his favor.

Hardly. But, at the moment, he's the only one running for President of the United States.

MrMoe said:
Funny thing is millions of Americans believe this is exactly what Democrats did regarding Trump's recent conviction.

They're free to believe that, or any other silliness they want to believe.

MrMoe said:
And he didn't locker up. I wonder why.

Probably because his various heads of the DOJ weren't quite the sycophants he wanted them to be. I'm sure he'll correct that if he gets into office again.

MrMoe said:
No I don't remember something you never mentioned.

You replied to it. To refresh your memory:

A2SG said:
Think Lex Luthor, and we're about on a par. (Minus the genius intellect, of course.)

MrMoe said:
I can't read minds. That also doesn't make the comparison to a fictional supervillain any less ridiculous.

So ignore it and move along.

MrMoe said:
Trump got what he wanted, that's all we can assume. Anything else beyond that is pure speculation.

Of course. I never claimed I wasn't speculating. Fortunately, I've never met Donald Trump.

MrMoe said:

You do realize, I've never even attempted to defend Joe Biden here. I've never said he was the best candidate, only that he's a better one than Trump. A low bar, to be sure.

MrMoe said:
It's not questionable. It's on video posted by the Washington Post, a left leaning journal.

Oh, I know about the plagiarism accusations against Joe Biden. I meant that Trump's been accused of everything you accuse Biden of, including plagiarism. I only said that because the claims of plagiarism against Trump may be somewhat questionable, but they're still there. He doesn't get a pass, exactly.

MrMoe said:
And if all those are successfully appealed does that mean Biden then takes the lead?

No idea. Not every voter will be using Trump's various criminal trials as voting criteria. And it looks like some of those trials may be delayed past the election anyway. Don't know if the various state indictments will simply be halted or will continue if he's POTUS, but he'll no doubt try to pardon himself for the federal ones, or simply get his pet DOJ head to quash them.

MrMoe said:
You keep telling me this like I don't already know this.

Well, you keep acting as if anything said here is intended to change someone's vote come November. I've stated, unequivocably, that I will not be voting for Trump. I assume you'll be voting for him, but if not, that's your call. I'm just making sure it's understood that I'm not here to tell you who you should vote for.

MrMoe said:
It's seems you've already judged him guilty on that second trail.

I'm not likely to be on any jury that will have to make that decision, so I'm perfectly free to hold any opinion on it I like. Same as you.

MrMoe said:
I would if I was an American.

Oh, sorry. I didn't know you weren't. Your profile doesn't specify, and we are discussing US politics.

MrMoe said:
Not caring isn't the same as making excuses. By that logic you're making excuses for Biden's lies, racism etc. by voting for him.

Nope. As I said, my reasons for voting for him are simply that he's a better choice than Trump. If someone else were in the race, I'd be voting for them.

Besides, given his age, it's not unlikely that a vote for Biden in 2024 is a vote for Kamala Harris. And I'm fine with that.

MrMoe said:
I thought racism was the worst thing ever for left wingers. It must be only when a right wingers do it.

I never said one way or the other. Just so you're clear on this, I don't represent all "left wingers." I'm me. An individual. I speak for myself, and myself alone. I've tried not to assume your point of view based on what "right wingers" think, please try to extend the same courtesy.

MrMoe said:
We can't know but we can take an educated guess.

An educated guess based on a complete lack of information whatsoever? Good luck with that.

MrMoe said:
To be clear, you're claiming that hasn't happened?

No, I'm saying it hasn't happened that Trump was not charged for those crimes because other people did things that are worse. That isn't how the criminal justice system works here.

MrMoe said:
Definitions aren't subjective.

What definition are we disagreeing about? I thought we were discussing whether or not Trump feels he's above the law. I believe he does think so, you don't. That's where we disagree, not on the definition of "law" or whatever definition you're on about.

MrMoe said:
That's called having a double standard. And I don't defend Trump on things I condemn Biden for. I condemn them both equally.

I've yet to see you condemn Trump for a single thing, but you've condemned Biden for many things Trump has also done, some of which he's done far, far more of, and to a much greater severity.

Your business, of course, you're free to condemn or not condemn whomever you want to. But don't pretend you're being even-handed when you're clearly not and expect me to buy it.

MrMoe said:
"Someone who argues for absolute immunity from criminal prosecution sure sounds like someone who doesn't think the law should apply to him." Was your argument not the lawyers.

The argument that a president should have "absolute immunity" from criminal prosecution came from Trump through his legal team. I didn't make that argument up. You and I seem to disagree on what it means, but that's about it.

I'm fine with you and I disagreeing on this, or any other subject, by the way. I have no need to convince you of a thing.

MrMoe said:
It's pretty easy to imagine. Just imagine a Democrat with all the exact same traits and did the exact same things you dislike about Trump. Would you vote for them then?

No such person will be on the ballot come November.

MrMoe said:
Joe Biden and Kamala Harris.

Both of them are better candidates than Trump, as far as I'm concerned. And I'll be voting for whichever is on the ballot.

MrMoe said:
Because this thread is about Biden not Trump. And I do condemn Trump for continuing that lie.

Good to hear you say that, it's the first negative thing you've said about Trump in this entire conversation. Keep it up, you're on the right track!

MrMoe said:
It was relevant to the conversation about Biden's lies.

And since the election will come down to Biden versus Trump, if you're condemning Biden for lying, it's germane to compare his lying to Trump's. And by that metric, Trump comes out far, far ahead in sheer number of lies told, and in the severity of those lies.

MrMoe said:
You on the other hand keep using the "But Trump" Card to try and deflect attention away from Biden's wrongdoings.

Not at all. If Biden has done anything criminal, I fully support any prosecutor in bringing charges against him, with the full measure of evidence to obtain an indictment and possibly a conviction. So far, no such evidence has surfaced, but if it does by the time he leaves office in 2029, we'll see.

MrMoe said:
Do you believe there are people who exist who don't want to lie and want to be honest and people should vote for them instead of using the cop out excuse of "everyone lies"?

Sure, it's possible. I've yet to know of any individual who has never lied, even once in their life, but it's not impossible, I guess.

If such a person decides to run for president at some point, I may even consider voting for them. But I'll probably base my vote on more than just whether or not they've lied at some point in their life. There are other factors to consider, you know.

-- A2SG, but that's just me...everyone else is free to base their vote on whatever criteria they wish to....

MrMoe · Jul 11, 2024

A2SG said:
Hardly. But, at the moment, he's the only one running for President of the United States.

Biden and his fellow democrats are running for a second term. The ones a lot of American people believe manipulated the law in their favor by bringing those charges to court in an election year specifically to hurt Trump.

A2SG said:
They're free to believe that, or any other silliness they want to believe.

You're also free to believe that Trump is manipulating the law in his favor, or any other silliness you want to believe.

A2SG said:
Probably because his various heads of the DOJ weren't quite the sycophants he wanted them to be. I'm sure he'll correct that if he gets into office again.

And those supposed sycophants would still need to go through the law.

A2SG said:
Of course. I never claimed I wasn't speculating. Fortunately, I've never met Donald Trump.

Why can you say fortunately if you've never met him?

A2SG said:
You do realize, I've never even attempted to defend Joe Biden here. I've never said he was the best candidate, only that he's a better one than Trump. A low bar, to be sure.

It's a low bar and yet old man Biden can't clear it. The fact that Biden is supposed to be the best Democrats have to go against Trump is a sad statement on the Democrat party.

A2SG said:
Oh, I know about the plagiarism accusations against Joe Biden. I meant that Trump's been accused of everything you accuse Biden of, including plagiarism. I only said that because the claims of plagiarism against Trump may be somewhat questionable, but they're still there. He doesn't get a pass, exactly.

So they're both bad. But you're arguing about which turd is less stinky. There are other options.

A2SG said:
No idea. Not every voter will be using Trump's various criminal trials as voting criteria. And it looks like some of those trials may be delayed past the election anyway. Don't know if the various state indictments will simply be halted or will continue if he's POTUS, but he'll no doubt try to pardon himself for the federal ones, or simply get his pet DOJ head to quash them.

But you are obviously using it as a voting criteria. If all those are successfully appealed and Trump is no longer a convicted felon does that mean Biden then takes the lead as the worst according to your criteria?

A2SG said:
Well, you keep acting as if anything said here is intended to change someone's vote come November. I've stated, unequivocably, that I will not be voting for Trump. I assume you'll be voting for him, but if not, that's your call. I'm just making sure it's understood that I'm not here to tell you who you should vote for.

You're the one is started this conversation with me. It seems your the one on this forum that is intended to change someone's vote come November.

A2SG said:
I'm not likely to be on any jury that will have to make that decision, so I'm perfectly free to hold any opinion on it I like. Same as you.

That's not just an opinion. You're basically saying he's guilty without seeing any of the evidence the jury will have.

A2SG said:
Oh, sorry. I didn't know you weren't. Your profile doesn't specify, and we are discussing US politics.

You made a wrong assumption about me. Have you considered you may have made wrong assumptions about Trump?

A2SG said:
Nope. As I said, my reasons for voting for him are simply that he's a better choice than Trump. If someone else were in the race, I'd be voting for them.

Besides, given his age, it's not unlikely that a vote for Biden in 2024 is a vote for Kamala Harris. And I'm fine with that.

And that's the same reason many millions of Americans are voting for Trump. Simply that he's a better choice than Biden.

A2SG said:
I never said one way or the other. Just so you're clear on this, I don't represent all "left wingers." I'm me. An individual. I speak for myself, and myself alone. I've tried not to assume your point of view based on what "right wingers" think, please try to extend the same courtesy.

So you don't think racism is worse than fraud?

A2SG said:
An educated guess based on a complete lack of information whatsoever? Good luck with that.

But you yourself provided some information with the link you posted. How many people were convicted during each presidency from the 1930s the 1970s? I counted about 34. How many people were involved in the experimenting on American citizens without their knowledge known as the Tuskegee Syphilis Experiment that went on from the 30s to the 70s? I'm willing to bet a lot more than 34.

A2SG said:
What definition are we disagreeing about? I thought we were discussing whether or not Trump feels he's above the law. I believe he does think so, you don't. That's where we disagree, not on the definition of "law" or whatever definition you're on about.

How do you know that's what he believes? You can't read his mind and you said you've never met him so he couldn't have told you. I'm going by his actions, and him using lawyers is the opposite of someone who thinks they are above the law.

A2SG said:
I've yet to see you condemn Trump for a single thing, but you've condemned Biden for many things Trump has also done, some of which he's done far, far more of, and to a much greater severity.

Your business, of course, you're free to condemn or not condemn whomever you want to. But don't pretend you're being even-handed when you're clearly not and expect me to buy it.

I'm guessing you didn't read the rest of my post when you wrote this.

A2SG said:
The argument that a president should have "absolute immunity" from criminal prosecution came from Trump through his legal team. I didn't make that argument up. You and I seem to disagree on what it means, but that's about it.

I'm fine with you and I disagreeing on this, or any other subject, by the way. I have no need to convince you of a thing.

And it's perfectly legal for Trump and his legal team to seek for that immunity. Nothing "the law doesn't apply to them" about that.

A2SG said:
No such person will be on the ballot come November.

It's a hypothetical question. I hope this isn't another one of those instances were you refuse to answer a simple yes or no question because it will reveal you're obvious hypocrisy. So would you vote for such a Democrat that did and said exactly what Trump did and said?

A2SG said:
Good to hear you say that, it's the first negative thing you've said about Trump in this entire conversation. Keep it up, you're on the right track!

So neither.

A2SG said:
And since the election will come down to Biden versus Trump, if you're condemning Biden for lying, it's germane to compare his lying to Trump's. And by that metric, Trump comes out far, far ahead in sheer number of lies told, and in the severity of those lies.

Again you're arguing about which is the less sticky turd you want to vote for. Here's an idea, how about not voting for stinky turds.

A2SG said:
Not at all. If Biden has done anything criminal, I fully support any prosecutor in bringing charges against him, with the full measure of evidence to obtain an indictment and possibly a conviction. So far, no such evidence has surfaced, but if it does by the time he leaves office in 2029, we'll see.

It's still a whataboutism. You're also using the "not as bad as" argument. Basically justifying a bad choice by bringing up a worse choice. That's a horribly way to make decisions.

A2SG · Jul 11, 2024

MrMoe said:
Biden and his fellow democrats are running for a second term. The ones a lot of American people believe manipulated the law in their favor by bringing those charges to court in an election year specifically to hurt Trump.

I've no doubt some people believe that. And others believe Elvis is still alive, or that lizard people control the government. People can believe any number of silly and ridiculous things.

MrMoe said:
You're also free to believe that Trump is manipulating the law in his favor, or any other silliness you want to believe.

Nah, he isn't doing it himself, he has Clarence Thomas to do the heavy lifting. Of course, Clarence is having a bit of his own trouble these days, be curious to see how that all shakes out.

MrMoe said:
And those supposed sycophants would still need to go through the law.

Hopefully. But we know Trump does employ people who aren't so willing to abide by the law. *cough* Michael Cohen *cough*

MrMoe said:
Why can you say fortunately if you've never met him?

Because I count myself lucky I've never met the man. I did meet Mitt Romney once, by the way...he was governor of Massachusetts at the time and I was attending school right next door to the State House. Nice enough guy, but a bit of an empty suit in terms of personality, if I'm honest. Didn't vote for him, and was glad to see him gone from Massachusetts, but there are worse republicans out there.

MrMoe said:
It's a low bar and yet old man Biden can't clear it.

He's cleared it quite fine, far as I'm concerned. Then again, so could a snail.

MrMoe said:
The fact that Biden is supposed to be the best Democrats have to go against Trump is a sad statement on the Democrat party.

I'll grant you that. I'd love to see a better candidate in the race, quite frankly. Corey Booker would be an interesting candidate, and I've always admired Sherrod Brown. I'm sure there are others out there, I'd love to see more of them get more national recognition.

MrMoe said:
So they're both bad. But you're arguing about which turd is less stinky.

Kinda. But one's far, far stinkier than the other, so it's not a difficult distinction.

MrMoe said:
There are other options.

Not in this election, there ain't. But the conventions haven't happened yet, so you never know. Things could change. We'll have to see.

MrMoe said:
But you are obviously using it as a voting criteria. If all those are successfully appealed and Trump is no longer a convicted felon does that mean Biden then takes the lead as the worst according to your criteria?

Nope.

MrMoe said:
You're the one is started this conversation with me. It seems your the one on this forum that is intended to change someone's vote come November.

Nope. And if you can find even a single instance where I've even tried to convince you to vote for anyone, feel free to point it out. I responded to your comment about how some of us are willing to vote for Biden "just because you don't like the other guy." My response was simply to point out that it was because we REALLY don't like the other guy. Everything else is simply me explaining why I REALLY don't like Trump.

MrMoe said:
That's not just an opinion. You're basically saying he's guilty without seeing any of the evidence the jury will have.

It is just an opinion, since my view carries no legal weight whatsoever, and doesn't affect his legal situation one iota. As I said, I'm not gonna be on any jury that will decide Trump's fate: he hasn't been indicted in Massachusetts, and I'm not up for jury duty.

MrMoe said:
You made a wrong assumption about me.

Well, I mentioned your voting a handful of times before you corrected me, so the assumption wasn't completely without some basis. And, as I said, we are discussing US politics, so it's not like I assumed something wildly out of the ballpark.

MrMoe said:
Have you considered you may have made wrong assumptions about Trump?

Sure. But Trump has been a public figure for decades, and I've known of his antics since even before he had his brain implanted into Bill The Cat's body. Until he decided to run for president, though, he was just an amusing buffoon I didn't have to worry much about.

MrMoe said:
And that's the same reason many millions of Americans are voting for Trump. Simply that he's a better choice than Biden.

And they're wrong. In my vastly humble opinion, of course.

MrMoe said:
So you don't think racism is worse than fraud?

I never said a word on the subject.

MrMoe said:
But you yourself provided some information with the link you posted. How many people were convicted during each presidency from the 1930s the 1970s? I counted about 34. How many people were involved in the experimenting on American citizens without their knowledge known as the Tuskegee Syphilis Experiment that went on from the 30s to the 70s? I'm willing to bet a lot more than 34.

Hey, assume away. I'm not stopping you.

MrMoe said:
How do you know that's what he believes? You can't read his mind and you said you've never met him so he couldn't have told you. I'm going by his actions, and him using lawyers is the opposite of someone who thinks they are above the law.

And I'm also going by his actions, and the legal arguments he's put forth.

And somehow, we came to different conclusions. Imagine that.

MrMoe said:
I'm guessing you didn't read the rest of my post when you wrote this.

Oh yeah, you did manage to sneak in a single, lukewarm criticism of the man a bit later on, amid your near constant defenses of him. Congratulations.

MrMoe said:
And it's perfectly legal for Trump and his legal team to seek for that immunity. Nothing "the law doesn't apply to them" about that.

Clearly, you're going to see things your way, and I'm going to see things differently. I'm fine with that.

MrMoe said:
It's a hypothetical question. I hope this isn't another one of those instances were you refuse to answer a simple yes or no question because it will reveal you're obvious hypocrisy.

Watch it, bud. That almost sounds like goading. They frown on that around here.

MrMoe said:
So would you vote for such a Democrat that did and said exactly what Trump did and said?

To the degree that Trump has done the things he's done? Probably not. But, to be clear, as loathsome human beings go, Trump has no equal as far as I'm concerned.

MrMoe said:
Again you're arguing about which is the less sticky turd you want to vote for. Here's an idea, how about not voting for stinky turds.

Would that there were one running this time around.

MrMoe said:
It's still a whataboutism. You're also using the "not as bad as" argument. Basically justifying a bad choice by bringing up a worse choice. That's a horribly way to make decisions.

But in the US, presidential elections pretty much come down to one choice or the other. There are no realistic third options. I wish there were, but that's not the reality we live in. So, come November, barring any massive shifts in the political landscape, the election will probably come down to either Biden or Trump.

I'm not the biggest fan of one guy, but I REALLY don't like the other one, so my vote will be for the first guy.

If that doesn't meet with your approval, well, I guess I'll just have to muddle through somehow, try to pick up the shattered remains of my life and move on.

-- A2SG, won't be easy, but we all must soldier on....

MrMoe · Jul 12, 2024

A2SG said:
I've no doubt some people believe that. And others believe Elvis is still alive, or that lizard people control the government. People can believe any number of silly and ridiculous things.

Or that Trump is somehow manipulating the law in his favor.

A2SG said:
Nah, he isn't doing it himself, he has Clarence Thomas to do the heavy lifting. Of course, Clarence is having a bit of his own trouble these days, be curious to see how that all shakes out.

Got any evidence for this conspiracy theory?

A2SG said:
Hopefully. But we know Trump does employ people who aren't so willing to abide by the law. *cough* Michael Cohen *cough*

You mean Trump's former lawyer which Trump refused to make a personal lawyer and was later convicted of his own crimes.

"He also testified that his relationship with Trump began deteriorating when he cut his 2016 bonus by two-thirds and kept refusing to make him a personal lawyer to the President after he took office"

Michael Cohen (lawyer) - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

You can sleep easy knowing that your "Trump is manipulating the law" conspiracy theory can't be true, if people like Michael Cohen, who can't even manipulate the law to get out of their own convictions are supposedly helping Trump.

A2SG said:
Because I count myself lucky I've never met the man. I did meet Mitt Romney once, by the way...he was governor of Massachusetts at the time and I was attending school right next door to the State House. Nice enough guy, but a bit of an empty suit in terms of personality, if I'm honest. Didn't vote for him, and was glad to see him gone from Massachusetts, but there are worse republicans out there.

But why do you count yourself lucky you've never met the man? That's what I'm asking.

A2SG said:
He's cleared it quite fine, far as I'm concerned. Then again, so could a snail.

He didn't die. I guess that's enough for Blue MAGA.

A2SG said:
Kinda. But one's far, far stinkier than the other, so it's not a difficult distinction.

How so?

A2SG said:
Not in this election, there ain't. But the conventions haven't happened yet, so you never know. Things could change. We'll have to see.

JFK jr. Jill Stein.

A2SG said:
Nope.

Why not?

A2SG said:
Nope. And if you can find even a single instance where I've even tried to convince you to vote for anyone, feel free to point it out. I responded to your comment about how some of us are willing to vote for Biden "just because you don't like the other guy." My response was simply to point out that it was because we REALLY don't like the other guy. Everything else is simply me explaining why I REALLY don't like Trump.

And vice versa. My responses were simply to point out why I and millions of Americans REALLY don't like Biden.

A2SG said:
It is just an opinion, since my view carries no legal weight whatsoever, and doesn't affect his legal situation one iota. As I said, I'm not gonna be on any jury that will decide Trump's fate: he hasn't been indicted in Massachusetts, and I'm not up for jury duty.

Well, I mentioned your voting a handful of times before you corrected me, so the assumption wasn't completely without some basis. And, as I said, we are discussing US politics, so it's not like I assumed something wildly out of the ballpark.

There are several other none US members here. Maybe the lesson here is don't assume things about people until you know all the facts.

A2SG said:
Sure. But Trump has been a public figure for decades, and I've known of his antics since even before he had his brain implanted into Bill The Cat's body. Until he decided to run for president, though, he was just an amusing buffoon I didn't have to worry much about.

The public still only sees a small percent of a public figures life.

A2SG said:
And they're wrong. In my vastly humble opinion, of course.

And they think you're wrong. In their humble opinion.

A2SG said:
I never said a word on the subject.

Well now you can say something on the subject since it's relevant to Biden and Trump. Do you think racism is worse than fraud?

A2SG said:
And I'm also going by his actions, and the legal arguments he's put forth.

And somehow, we came to different conclusions. Imagine that.

Which are?

A2SG said:
Oh yeah, you did manage to sneak in a single, lukewarm criticism of the man a bit later on, amid your near constant defenses of him. Congratulations.

Criticizing Biden and his followers ≠ Defending Trump. Like I told you before I'm not here to defend Trump. I'm here to point out what a bad choice Biden also is.

What would you consider not lukewarm criticism?

A2SG said:
Clearly, you're going to see things your way, and I'm going to see things differently. I'm fine with that.

But only one can be based in reality. For example a Trump supporter can believe Trump isn't guilty. That doesn't change the fact that he was found guilty in a court of law. Same with you. You made a claim about what Trump believes and didn't back it up with any quotes saying that's what he believes.

A2SG said:
To the degree that Trump has done the things he's done? Probably not. But, to be clear, as loathsome human beings go, Trump has no equal as far as I'm concerned.

Biden is pretty close to his equal since they both share several traits. They're both narcissists, both liars, both have said racist things, although Biden has said more racist things, they're both bullies,

A2SG said:
But in the US, presidential elections pretty much come down to one choice or the other. There are no realistic third options. I wish there were, but that's not the reality we live in. So, come November, barring any massive shifts in the political landscape, the election will probably come down to either Biden or Trump.

I'm not the biggest fan of one guy, but I REALLY don't like the other one, so my vote will be for the first guy.

If that doesn't meet with your approval, well, I guess I'll just have to muddle through somehow, try to pick up the shattered remains of my life and move on.

-- A2SG, won't be easy, but we all must soldier on....

What would a realistic third option look like?

A2SG · Jul 12, 2024

MrMoe said:
Or that Trump is somehow manipulating the law in his favor.

I don't believe he's smart enough to do that himself, but he does have people who will do it for him. Lawyers, Supreme Court justices, fixers, people like that.

MrMoe said:
Got any evidence for this conspiracy theory?

That Clarence Thomas is having a bit of trouble these days? Not exactly a theory. Articles of Impeachment are being filed (for Thomas and Alito), and some members of Congress have sought to have a special counsel assigned to investigate his financial "issues."

Or did you mean that Clarence Thomas has specifically ruled in ways overly favorable to Donald Trump and his legal issues?

MrMoe said:
You mean Trump's former lawyer which Trump refused to make a personal lawyer and was later convicted of his own crimes.

Among others, sure. His former personal attorney Rudy Giuliani also comes to mind.

Funny how many of Trump's former lawyers get involved in legal issues themselves, huh? What a coinky-dink.

MrMoe said:
"He also testified that his relationship with Trump began deteriorating when he cut his 2016 bonus by two-thirds and kept refusing to make him a personal lawyer to the President after he took office"

Michael Cohen (lawyer) - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

You can sleep easy knowing that your "Trump is manipulating the law" conspiracy theory can't be true, if people like Michael Cohen, who can't even manipulate the law to get out of their own convictions are supposedly helping Trump.

Hey, believe whatever you like.

MrMoe said:
But why do you count yourself lucky you've never met the man? That's what I'm asking.

Personal distaste, I suppose. But hey, you're free to try and meet the guy if you like.

MrMoe said:
He didn't die. I guess that's enough for Blue MAGA.

I have no idea who or what "Blue MAGA" is. Is that even a thing?

MrMoe said:
How so?

Whatever issues or failings Biden has, Trump's are far, far, FAR worse. In my estimation, of course.

MrMoe said:
JFK jr. Jill Stein.

Realistically, their chances of being elected aren't much better than your own. Heck, even RFK Jr's family don't support his candidacy.

MrMoe said:
Why not?

Because I'm not going to vote for Trump. Period.

MrMoe said:
And vice versa. My responses were simply to point out why I and millions of Americans REALLY don't like Biden.

Cool. You'll notice I'm not trying to convince you otherwise. You, on the other hand, are pretty adamant about defending Trump at every turn.

MrMoe said:
There are several other none US members here. Maybe the lesson here is don't assume things about people until you know all the facts.

Fair enough.

MrMoe said:
The public still only sees a small percent of a public figures life.

True enough. And even that's too much, in some cases.

MrMoe said:
And they think you're wrong. In their humble opinion.

Cool. I've never had a problem with people disagreeing with me. Some of my best friends disagree with me on occasion, on any number of subjects.

MrMoe said:
Well now you can say something on the subject since it's relevant to Biden and Trump. Do you think racism is worse than fraud?

No thanks.

MrMoe said:
Which are?

What, you're unclear on the different conclusions you and I have come to on the issue of Donald Trump's legal battles?

Try rereading our conversation.

MrMoe said:
Criticizing Biden and his followers ≠ Defending Trump.

No, but you have defended Trump outright, without criticizing Biden in the process. Such as with the whole above the law exchange, for example.

MrMoe said:
Like I told you before I'm not here to defend Trump. I'm here to point out what a bad choice Biden also is.

Well, you have done the former, but I have no problem with you doing the latter. For the most part, I've refrained from commenting on that...and, to be fair, if Biden did drop out of the race, it wouldn't disappoint me all that much. I'm more concerned with Trump not getting into the White House again than with any specific candidate getting in. But, granted, that's me.

MrMoe said:
What would you consider not lukewarm criticism?

There's plenty of "not lukewarm" criticism of Donald Trump out there, feel free to seek it out if you wish. Again, I'm not here to sway your opinion one way or the other.

MrMoe said:
But only one can be based in reality. For example a Trump supporter can believe Trump isn't guilty. That doesn't change the fact that he was found guilty in a court of law. Same with you. You made a claim about what Trump believes and didn't back it up with any quotes saying that's what he believes.

I didn't make a claim, I voiced an opinion. You're free to agree, disagree or completely disregard that opinion, as you prefer.

MrMoe said:
Biden is pretty close to his equal since they both share several traits.

Hardly. Take lies as an example. Remember the amount of lies each told? The two aren't even close to equal in that regard.

MrMoe said:
They're both narcissists, both liars, both have said racist things, although Biden has said more racist things, they're both bullies,

So why defend one of them even as you criticize the other? You'll notice, I'm not defending either of them.

My only point here is that, if we accept those traits as given, one of the two is far, far worse than the other.

MrMoe said:
What would a realistic third option look like?

Someone with a real shot at getting more than a single-digit percentage of the vote, at best.

So far as I can recall, Ross Perot was the only one to come close, and he still only managed to come in a distant third. Somewhere around 18%, I believe.

What it would require is a candidate who is the equivalent of an independent Reagan or Obama, someone with national recognition, tons of charisma, and someone a large percent of the voting public can support other than the two major party candidates. Got anyone in mind for that?

Jill Stein ain't it. She's fine, but barely a blip on the political radar. And RFK Jr. sure ain't it...he's got nothing going for him but his famous name, and a lot going against him.

-- A2SG, heck, even former president Teddy Roosevelt couldn't get elected as a third party candidate....

MrMoe · Jul 13, 2024

A2SG said:
I don't believe he's smart enough to do that himself, but he does have people who will do it for him. Lawyers, Supreme Court justices, fixers, people like that.

You're assuming they are smart enough themselves. Like the example you gave, former lawyer Michael Cohen.

A2SG said:
That Clarence Thomas is having a bit of trouble these days? Not exactly a theory. Articles of Impeachment are being filed (for Thomas and Alito), and some members of Congress have sought to have a special counsel assigned to investigate his financial "issues."

Or did you mean that Clarence Thomas has specifically ruled in ways overly favorable to Donald Trump and his legal issues?

No, I mean what evidence do you have for your conspiracy theory that Trump is manipulating the law in his favor.

A2SG said:
Among others, sure. His former personal attorney Rudy Giuliani also comes to mind.

Funny how many of Trump's former lawyers get involved in legal issues themselves, huh? What a coinky-dink.

His former legal team can't even get away with their legal issues, and yet you believe Trump is somehow manipulating the law in his favor with people like this.

You're not making a very compelling case for your conspiracy theory.

A2SG said:
Hey, believe whatever you like.

Which are not conspiracy theories.

A2SG said:
Personal distaste, I suppose. But hey, you're free to try and meet the guy if you like.

Sounds like you're using circular reasoning. He could be a great guy for all you know and nothing like the media portray him.

A2SG said:
I have no idea who or what "Blue MAGA" is. Is that even a thing?

Yes. They're the left wing version of right wingers that display cultish behavior.

A2SG said:
Whatever issues or failings Biden has, Trump's are far, far, FAR worse. In my estimation, of course.

How are you estimating?

A2SG said:
Realistically, their chances of being elected aren't much better than your own. Heck, even RFK Jr's family don't support his candidacy.

Right now Biden seem at the same level chance as RFK jr of winning.

A2SG said:
Because I'm not going to vote for Trump. Period.

Seems you're voting criteria is based on emotions rather than rationality.

A2SG said:
No thanks.

This just confirms to me you voting criteria is based on emotion than rationality. Racism is definitely worse than the felonies Trump was accused of. Even former NY judge Judith Susan Sheindlin and former NY governor Andrew Cuomo say this conviction were politically motivated to hurt Trump.

A2SG said:
What, you're unclear on the different conclusions you and I have come to on the issue of Donald Trump's legal battles?

Try rereading our conversation.

I'm asking what actions, and the legal arguments Trump has put forth that make you think Trump feels he's above the law.

A2SG said:
No, but you have defended Trump outright, without criticizing Biden in the process. Such as with the whole above the law exchange, for example.

Why do I need to criticize Biden in the process? I'm criticizing you for believing a conspiracy theory.

A2SG said:
Well, you have done the former, but I have no problem with you doing the latter. For the most part, I've refrained from commenting on that...and, to be fair, if Biden did drop out of the race, it wouldn't disappoint me all that much. I'm more concerned with Trump not getting into the White House again than with any specific candidate getting in. But, granted, that's me.

Even bad people should be defended when lies are spread about them, do you agree? I'm not going to keep quiet just because I don't personally like Trump. And because the other member here who dislike Trump certainly aren't going to say it.

A2SG said:
There's plenty of "not lukewarm" criticism of Donald Trump out there, feel free to seek it out if you wish. Again, I'm not here to sway your opinion one way or the other.

If there's plenty of "not lukewarm" criticism I don't see the need to contribute.

A2SG said:
I didn't make a claim, I voiced an opinion. You're free to agree, disagree or completely disregard that opinion, as you prefer.

An opinion can also be a claim.

A2SG said:
Hardly. Take lies as an example. Remember the amount of lies each told? The two aren't even close to equal in that regard.

If you're judging just by the debate, but people aren't going to judge just going by the debate. There are many more lies Biden has told over the years. Fact-checks | PolitiFact

A2SG said:
So why defend one of them even as you criticize the other? You'll notice, I'm not defending either of them.

Like I keep saying, I'm not here for Trump, I'm here for Biden. There are plenty of people criticizing Trump in this Forum right now. I've noticed the majority of members here appear to be left wing. There are fewer right wingers. So to paraphrase Star Wars, I came here to "bring balance to the force".

A2SG said:
My only point here is that, if we accept those traits as given, one of the two is far, far worse than the other.

No they're not. They're about equal. Biden is showing his narcissism right now by refusing to step down even though it's causing division in his party. I believe you're wearing rose-tinted glasses when viewing Biden.

Bradskii · Jul 13, 2024

Anyone else developing a calluse on their scrolling finger from this thread?

Pommer · Jul 13, 2024

Bradskii said:
Anyone else developing a calluse on their scrolling finger from this thread?

It seems only the participants read them too, and then only halfway.

A2SG · Jul 14, 2024

Pommer said:
It seems only the participants read them too, and then only halfway.

Sigh. I wish that were true.

-- A2SG, but I only have myself to blame....

A2SG · Jul 14, 2024

MrMoe said:
You're assuming they are smart enough themselves. Like the example you gave, former lawyer Michael Cohen.

That might explain why he pled guilty, I suppose.

MrMoe said:
No, I mean what evidence do you have for your conspiracy theory that Trump is manipulating the law in his favor.

What, Clarence Thomas' concurring opinion on special counsel appointments isn't enough for you? To say nothing of the SCOTUS ruling on presidential immunity? But, if you recall, what I said was I felt Trump thinks he's above the law, and shouldn't be held accountable for his criminal actions. That, I feel, has been borne out pretty clearly. You're free to disagree, of course. I know how much you feel the need to defend Donald Trump.

MrMoe said:
His former legal team can't even get away with their legal issues, and yet you believe Trump is somehow manipulating the law in his favor with people like this.

You're not making a very compelling case for your conspiracy theory.

So? You're free to not believe it, if you wish. Trump must be defended at all costs, right?

MrMoe said:
Which are not conspiracy theories.

I certainly never called them that.

MrMoe said:
Sounds like you're using circular reasoning. He could be a great guy for all you know and nothing like the media portray him.

Sure, anything's possible. He might even give out candy, for all I know. Still, if given the opportunity to meet him, I'd turn it down. Maybe I'll suggest you to take my place, though.

MrMoe said:
Yes. They're the left wing version of right wingers that display cultish behavior.

Ah. I've yet to see anyone on the left devote the kind of slavish, ardent support for Joe Biden as the MAGA faithful demonstrate for Trump. At least, no one's lining up to buy Biden NFTs or pieces of his suit, and his campaign events have far less attendance than Trump rallies do. But you're certainly free to interpret the actions of those on the left however you wish to.

MrMoe said:
How are you estimating?

I compare the two to see which one is worse than the other. And Trump comes out worse by pretty much every measure I can think of.

You are, of course, free to make your own estimation.

MrMoe said:
Right now Biden seem at the same level chance as RFK jr of winning.

I guess we'll see come November, won't we?

MrMoe said:
Seems you're voting criteria is based on emotions rather than rationality.

Maybe to a partial extent, but not mostly, no. My vote for someone other than Trump comes largely from his actions during his term as President, and even more so his actions following the 2020 election.

MrMoe said:
This just confirms to me you voting criteria is based on emotion than rationality. Racism is definitely worse than the felonies Trump was accused of. Even former NY judge Judith Susan Sheindlin and former NY governor Andrew Cuomo say this conviction were politically motivated to hurt Trump.

You're free to confirm anything you wish based on my lack of a response.

As to the conviction, well, 12 jurors examined the evidence and found him guilty on 34 counts. If you, or those other individuals you mentioned, want to feel all 12 jurors are engaged in some sort of political conspiracy, that's your business. I guess you people have a more vivid imagination than even I do.

MrMoe said:
I'm asking what actions, and the legal arguments Trump has put forth that make you think Trump feels he's above the law.

The immunity one is a biggie, I'd say. But his insistence that he's innocent of all charges, despite being found guilty, does attest to the view that the law shouldn't apply to him. Still, I'll admit that's my interpretation, you are free, of course, to feel otherwise, even to believe that Trump has never done a single negative thing in his entire life, if you wish. Your call.

MrMoe said:
Why do I need to criticize Biden in the process? I'm criticizing you for believing a conspiracy theory.

If you want me to believe you're being even-handed in your assessment of both candidates, then criticizing Biden for things Trump is even more guilty of doesn't demonstrate that very well. Now, granted, you're under no obligation to defend Trump...even though you seem quite committed to doing so. Still, that's your right.

MrMoe said:
Even bad people should be defended when lies are spread about them, do you agree? I'm not going to keep quiet just because I don't personally like Trump. And because the other member here who dislike Trump certainly aren't going to say it.

I don't believe I've uttered a single lie about Trump in this entire exchange, but you are still free to continue your defense of him no matter what I say.

MrMoe said:
If there's plenty of "not lukewarm" criticism I don't see the need to contribute.

So don't. Your call.

MrMoe said:
An opinion can also be a claim.

Not really. A claim needs to be supported with evidence of some sort, an opinion does not.

MrMoe said:
If you're judging just by the debate, but people aren't going to judge just going by the debate. There are many more lies Biden has told over the years. Fact-checks | PolitiFact

Yeah, let's check those numbers, shall we? 130 for Biden, 783 for Trump. Talk to me when Biden comes close to Trump's numbers if you want to really compare them.

MrMoe said:
Like I keep saying, I'm not here for Trump, I'm here for Biden.

So you say. I haven't said a single word in defense of Biden whatsoever, though, so your point remains unclear. Unless you're intending to defend Trump, and in that regard, you seem to be working overtime. If you'd only responded to my initial post by saying you didn't like Biden, I'd have just said, fine and moved on.

So, if you truly want me to believe you're not here to defend Trump, maybe you should stop defending him. Then, this exchange would be a lot shorter, and we wouldn't be boring poor Bradskii and Pommer.

MrMoe said:
There are plenty of people criticizing Trump in this Forum right now. I've noticed the majority of members here appear to be left wing. There are fewer right wingers. So to paraphrase Star Wars, I came here to "bring balance to the force".

How's that workin' out for ya?

MrMoe said:
No they're not. They're about equal. Biden is showing his narcissism right now by refusing to step down even though it's causing division in his party. I believe you're wearing rose-tinted glasses when viewing Biden.

Let me see...Biden is continuing to be a candidate for the office he's currently holding, Donald Trump told a crowd of people assembled in Washington DC that he actually won the election he'd lost, without even a shred of evidence (and despite losing 60 court cases challenging the results), and "if you don't fight like hell, you're not going to have a country anymore," then hid in the White House while they rioted and stormed the Capitol.

That's "about equal" by you?

-- A2SG, I'd say your glasses aren't simply rose-tinted, they're completely blanked out, with videos of Trump implanted within them.....

MrMoe · Jul 16, 2024

A2SG said:
That might explain why he pled guilty, I suppose.

Yes.

A2SG said:
What, Clarence Thomas' concurring opinion on special counsel appointments isn't enough for you? To say nothing of the SCOTUS ruling on presidential immunity? But, if you recall, what I said was I felt Trump thinks he's above the law, and shouldn't be held accountable for his criminal actions. That, I feel, has been borne out pretty clearly. You're free to disagree, of course. I know how much you feel the need to defend Donald Trump.

Someone agreeing with Trump is your evidence of him manipulating the Justice system in his favor? Going by that silly logic, Biden is manipulating MSNBC because they agree with him.

A2SG said:
So? You're free to not believe it, if you wish. Trump must be defended at all costs, right?

Everyone should be defended against false or unfounded accusations.

A2SG said:
I certainly never called them that.

But that's what they are regardless.

A2SG said:
Sure, anything's possible. He might even give out candy, for all I know. Still, if given the opportunity to meet him, I'd turn it down. Maybe I'll suggest you to take my place, though.

Why would you turn it down?

A2SG said:
Ah. I've yet to see anyone on the left devote the kind of slavish, ardent support for Joe Biden as the MAGA faithful demonstrate for Trump. At least, no one's lining up to buy Biden NFTs or pieces of his suit, and his campaign events have far less attendance than Trump rallies do. But you're certainly free to interpret the actions of those on the left however you wish to.

Anecdotal evidence. Just because you've never met one doesn't mean they don't exist.

A2SG said:
I compare the two to see which one is worse than the other. And Trump comes out worse by pretty much every measure I can think of.

You are, of course, free to make your own estimation.

You didn't explain how you are estimating. How do you judge what is worse?

A2SG said:
I guess we'll see come November, won't we?

Judging by the polling numbers right now, voting for Biden or RFK would just be rearranging deck chairs on the Titanic. Seems like Trump is going to win.

A2SG said:
Maybe to a partial extent, but not mostly, no. My vote for someone other than Trump comes largely from his actions during his term as President, and even more so his actions following the 2020 election.

What actions?

A2SG said:
You're free to confirm anything you wish based on my lack of a response.

As to the conviction, well, 12 jurors examined the evidence and found him guilty on 34 counts. If you, or those other individuals you mentioned, want to feel all 12 jurors are engaged in some sort of political conspiracy, that's your business. I guess you people have a more vivid imagination than even I do.

When did I say the jury was involved in a political conspiracy? You do realize people don't need to be involved in a political conspiracy to have a bias or personal agenda, right? Seems the one with the vivid imagination is you.

A2SG said:
The immunity one is a biggie, I'd say. But his insistence that he's innocent of all charges, despite being found guilty, does attest to the view that the law shouldn't apply to him. Still, I'll admit that's my interpretation, you are free, of course, to feel otherwise, even to believe that Trump has never done a single negative thing in his entire life, if you wish. Your call.

He has a right to protest his innocence. That doesn't equate to "the law shouldn't apply to him" . There are people who have been wrongfully imprisoned. If those people insisted they were innocent of all charges, does that attest to the view that the law shouldn't apply to them?

A2SG said:
If you want me to believe you're being even-handed in your assessment of both candidates, then criticizing Biden for things Trump is even more guilty of doesn't demonstrate that very well. Now, granted, you're under no obligation to defend Trump...even though you seem quite committed to doing so. Still, that's your right.

"Even more guilty"? Didn't know there were degrees of guilt. Do you think George Washington is even more dead than Abraham Lincoln?

A2SG said:
I don't believe I've uttered a single lie about Trump in this entire exchange, but you are still free to continue your defense of him no matter what I say.

Not you personally but others including Biden have. For example the very fine people lie. He keeps claiming Trump called neo-nazis very fine people even though CNN told him during the debate that had been debunked.

A2SG said:
Not really. A claim needs to be supported with evidence of some sort, an opinion does not.

Then why are you upset that Trump says he won the 2020 election? It's just his opinion after all.

A2SG said:
Yeah, let's check those numbers, shall we? 130 for Biden, 783 for Trump. Talk to me when Biden comes close to Trump's numbers if you want to really compare them.

Politifact hasn't compiled all lies told by both, so who knows what the actual number really is.

A2SG said:
So you say. I haven't said a single word in defense of Biden whatsoever, though, so your point remains unclear.

I'm not here to defend Biden. Is that clear enough?

A2SG said:
Unless you're intending to defend Trump, and in that regard, you seem to be working overtime. If you'd only responded to my initial post by saying you didn't like Biden, I'd have just said, fine and moved on.

I've never met Biden so I can't say whether I like him or not. But I can say he is a terrible president.

A2SG said:
So, if you truly want me to believe you're not here to defend Trump, maybe you should stop defending him. Then, this exchange would be a lot shorter, and we wouldn't be boring poor Bradskii and Pommer.

Like I keep telling you, I'm not here to defend Trump. I'm here to talk about what a terrible president Biden is.

A2SG said:
How's that workin' out for ya?

Good so far.

A2SG said:
Let me see...Biden is continuing to be a candidate for the office he's currently holding, Donald Trump told a crowd of people assembled in Washington DC that he actually won the election he'd lost, without even a shred of evidence (and despite losing 60 court cases challenging the results),

Why do you have a problem with Trump's opinion? As you said "A claim needs to be supported with evidence of some sort, an opinion does not."

A2SG said:
and "if you don't fight like hell, you're not going to have a country anymore," then hid in the White House while they rioted and stormed the Capitol.

Fight like hell ≠ break the law. Trump also Tweeted on that day: "I am asking for everyone at the U.S. Capitol to remain peaceful. No violence!"

A2SG said:
That's "about equal" by you?

Yes. Both won't accept reality. Both have said irresponsible things. Biden said “it’s time to put Trump in a bullseye.” Days before the assassination attempt on Trump.

A2SG said:
-- A2SG, I'd say your glasses aren't simply rose-tinted, they're completely blanked out, with videos of Trump implanted within them.....

Not sure what that's supposed to imply. That I watch a lot of Trump videos? I watch a lot of political videos, both of Trump and Biden.

A2SG · Jul 16, 2024

MrMoe said:
Someone agreeing with Trump is your evidence of him manipulating the Justice system in his favor? Going by that silly logic, Biden is manipulating MSNBC because they agree with him.

No, but it all points to Trump seeming to believe he's above the law, and that he shouldn't be held accountable for his criminal acts. At least, that's how I interpret it. You're free to interpret in some other way, if you prefer.

MrMoe said:
Everyone should be defended against false or unfounded accusations.

I'm not accusing anyone of anything. I'm only spouting my opinion. No one is required to care about it one way or the other. I'd be very surprised if Trump is even slightly aware of a thing I've ever said here. Surprised, heck, I'd be shocked beyond belief!

MrMoe said:
But that's what they are regardless.

You are, of course, free to interpret them any way you wish.

MrMoe said:
Why would you turn it down?

Because it's about as likely to happen as my being invited to spend the night with Valerie Bertinelli.

MrMoe said:
Anecdotal evidence. Just because you've never met one doesn't mean they don't exist.

Sure. And they're all probably in a bowling league with Bigfoot and the Jersey Devil. Ya never know, right?

MrMoe said:
You didn't explain how you are estimating. How do you judge what is worse?

I have a special scale. It's nice, it even has my initials engraved on it.

MrMoe said:
Judging by the polling numbers right now, voting for Biden or RFK would just be rearranging deck chairs on the Titanic. Seems like Trump is going to win.

Then the country will be the loser. Oh well. But, we've endured worse. Can't think of an instance off hand, but I suppose it's not impossible.

MrMoe said:
What actions?

What, you haven't heard about what Trump has been doing all this time? It was in all the papers.

MrMoe said:
When did I say the jury was involved in a political conspiracy?

You claimed that some people felt the verdict was "politically motivated to hurt Trump." That suggests it was planned for political purposes, rather than simply being a result of viewing the evidence at the trial. To my mind, that sounds like you, or those other people, believe it was conspiracy.

Though, I could be wrong. What did you mean by that, if I didn't correctly surmise your intent?

MrMoe said:
You do realize people don't need to be involved in a political conspiracy to have a bias or personal agenda, right? Seems the one with the vivid imagination is you.

Yep, I do have one. Comes with being a writer, I suppose. Still, as plots go, the one you're implying here sounds even too farfetched for David Baldacci. And he's come up with some corkers, for sure!

MrMoe said:
He has a right to protest his innocence. That doesn't equate to "the law shouldn't apply to him".

Sure, he has the right. And sure, that doesn't necessarily mean he thinks the law doesn't apply. But considering his actions, his words, and his overall attitude during all of his legal battles, I have come to the personal, subjective opinion that he feels he's above the law, and should not be held accountable for his criminal actions. You are, of course, free to feel otherwise. I know you always seek to defend him, no matter what. You do you, buddy.

MrMoe said:
There are people who have been wrongfully imprisoned. If those people insisted they were innocent of all charges, does that attest to the view that the law shouldn't apply to them?

Are you trying to suggest that Trump is innocent of all the many charges he's been found guilty of, in several trials to date, over the last several years?

If so...I've got some pieces of a suit I'd like to sell you. The come from someone famous, I swear!

MrMoe said:
"Even more guilty"? Didn't know there were degrees of guilt. Do you think George Washington is even more dead than Abraham Lincoln?

You criticize Biden for lying 130 times, but defend Trump, who has lied 783 times (at last count). By that measure, I'd say Trump is even more guilty of lying than Biden. Further, Trump has been indicted several times, and has multiple guilty verdicts under his belt. Biden has not been indicted for anything, and has not been found guilty even once.

Now, you are perfectly free to add up those figures yourself and come to a different conclusion if you want to. Just don't expect me to agree with it.

MrMoe said:
Not you personally but others including Biden have. For example the very fine people lie. He keeps claiming Trump called neo-nazis very fine people even though CNN told him during the debate that had been debunked.

Okay. So complain to them. I don't know what you expect me to do about it.

MrMoe said:
Then why are you upset that Trump says he won the 2020 election? It's just his opinion after all.

If all he did was voice an opinion on an internet message board like you and I are doing, no one would have a problem with it. But he did more than that. And he's currently under indictment for some of those actions, awaiting trial.

MrMoe said:
Politifact hasn't compiled all lies told by both, so who knows what the actual number really is.

So why imply you have any idea what the actual number might be? If you have a valid reason to suspect the difference is other than reported by Politifact, feel free to offer that reason. But if all you have is idle speculation based on a lack of factual evidence, well....

MrMoe said:
I'm not here to defend Biden. Is that clear enough?

Fine with me. I've never had a problem with that.

MrMoe said:
I've never met Biden so I can't say whether I like him or not. But I can say he is a terrible president.

Fine. You're perfectly entitled to hold that opinion, same as I would be for whomever is the leader of wherever you're from.

MrMoe said:
Like I keep telling you, I'm not here to defend Trump.

Then you might want to consider tapering off on your defenses of him, because you do it often.

MrMoe said:
I'm here to talk about what a terrible president Biden is.

Fine. You may want to note that I haven't argued against any of those points, then.

MrMoe said:
Good so far.

Cool. Coolcoolcool.

MrMoe said:
Why do you have a problem with Trump's opinion? As you said "A claim needs to be supported with evidence of some sort, an opinion does not."

I have no problem with his opinion. It's his actions I have a problem with. And I'm not the only one, as he's under indictment for some of them.

MrMoe said:
Fight like hell ≠ break the law. Trump also Tweeted on that day: "I am asking for everyone at the U.S. Capitol to remain peaceful. No violence!"

Yeah, he tweeted that after his words on the ellipse said otherwise.

MrMoe said:
Yes.

You need a better measuring device, my friend.

MrMoe said:
Both won't accept reality. Both have said irresponsible things. Biden said “it’s time to put Trump in a bullseye.” Days before the assassination attempt on Trump.

I think I heard he explained his intent behind that. I know you were upset that Biden misinterpreted Trump's words in a previous example, so you may want to look into that. If you're interested in being fair, that is. Or not. Your call.

But, regardless, it does seem far-fetched if your implication is that Biden is somehow responsible for the shooting, even in an indirect way. Still, you're free to interpret anything anyway you wish to.

MrMoe said:
Not sure what that's supposed to imply. That I watch a lot of Trump videos? I watch a lot of political videos, both of Trump and Biden.

Don't worry about it, then.

-- A2SG, no skin off my nose....

MrMoe · Jul 17, 2024

A2SG said:
No, but it all points to Trump seeming to believe he's above the law, and that he shouldn't be held accountable for his criminal acts. At least, that's how I interpret it. You're free to interpret in some other way, if you prefer.

An interpretation based on your anti-Trump bias rather than any evidence.

A2SG said:
I'm not accusing anyone of anything. I'm only spouting my opinion. No one is required to care about it one way or the other. I'd be very surprised if Trump is even slightly aware of a thing I've ever said here. Surprised, heck, I'd be shocked beyond belief!

Then why did you bring up Trump believing the 2020 election was stolen? it's just his opinion. No one is required to care about it one way or the other, but it seems you do.

A2SG said:
You are, of course, free to interpret them any way you wish.

Not my interpretation, It's the dictionary definition.

A2SG said:
Because it's about as likely to happen as my being invited to spend the night with Valerie Bertinelli.

Are you saying you would turn that unlikely event down if it did happen?

A2SG said:
Sure. And they're all probably in a bowling league with Bigfoot and the Jersey Devil. Ya never know, right?

You don't believe these "Blue MAGA" types exist?

A2SG said:
I have a special scale. It's nice, it even has my initials engraved on it.

Dodging the question with sarcasm I see. How does this special scale measure what is worse?

A2SG said:
What, you haven't heard about what Trump has been doing all this time? It was in all the papers.

What has he been doing all this time?

A2SG said:
You claimed that some people felt the verdict was "politically motivated to hurt Trump."

Yes, that's what you refer to as an opinion.

A2SG said:
That suggests it was planned for political purposes, rather than simply being a result of viewing the evidence at the trial. To my mind, that sounds like you, or those other people, believe it was conspiracy.

Though, I could be wrong. What did you mean by that, if I didn't correctly surmise your intent?

I wasn't talking about the jury. You brought up the jury. I was talking about everyone else watching from the outside. They felt the conviction (not the trail, as you incorrectly stated) was politically motivated to hurt Trump.

A2SG said:
Yep, I do have one. Comes with being a writer, I suppose. Still, as plots go, the one you're implying here sounds even too farfetched for David Baldacci. And he's come up with some corkers, for sure!

You mean the US government being used for nefarious purposes? If you consider that farfetched you need to read learn the history of the US Government.

A2SG said:
Sure, he has the right. And sure, that doesn't necessarily mean he thinks the law doesn't apply. But considering his actions, his words, and his overall attitude during all of his legal battles, I have come to the personal, subjective opinion that he feels he's above the law, and should not be held accountable for his criminal actions. You are, of course, free to feel otherwise. I know you always seek to defend him, no matter what. You do you, buddy.

I would love to know what actions, words, and overall attitude during all of his legal battles led you to that conclusion.

A2SG said:
Are you trying to suggest that Trump is innocent of all the many charges he's been found guilty of, in several trials to date, over the last several years?

If so...I've got some pieces of a suit I'd like to sell you. The come from someone famous, I swear!

No that's not what I'm suggesting.

This is what you said: "But his insistence that he's innocent of all charges, despite being found guilty, does attest to the view that the law shouldn't apply to him."

I'm simply asking you since you believe Trump protesting his innocence attests to the view that the law shouldn't apply to him, does that mean you believe other's protesting their innocence attests to the view that the law shouldn't apply to them?

A2SG said:
You criticize Biden for lying 130 times, but defend Trump, who has lied 783 times (at last count).

You keep repeating that number, but we don't know how accurate that is because Politfact doesn't compile every lie ever told by the candidates.

A2SG said:
By that measure, I'd say Trump is even more guilty of lying than Biden. Further, Trump has been indicted several times, and has multiple guilty verdicts under his belt. Biden has not been indicted for anything, and has not been found guilty even once.

Now, you are perfectly free to add up those figures yourself and come to a different conclusion if you want to. Just don't expect me to agree with it.

You confusing guilt with severity of the offence. They are both guilty of lying. No such thing as "more guilty".

That leads me to the flaw in your argument. You're ignoring the severity of the offence. If someone told you a little white lie that they liked your shirt but in reality thought it looked horrible, but another person told you a family member was responsible for a serious crime. Which would have more impact on your life?

A person could tell you a hundred white lies that have no impact on your life but another can tell one lie that can severely impact your life. You keep bringing up the number of lies both have told as if that shows Trump is far worse but that doesn't take into account the severity of the lies.

A2SG said:
Okay. So complain to them. I don't know what you expect me to do about it.

I expect you to clutch your pearls like you do when Trump lies.

A2SG said:
If all he did was voice an opinion on an internet message board like you and I are doing, no one would have a problem with it. But he did more than that. And he's currently under indictment for some of those actions, awaiting trial.

He did more than that? What are those things he did?

A2SG said:
So why imply you have any idea what the actual number might be? If you have a valid reason to suspect the difference is other than reported by Politifact, feel free to offer that reason. But if all you have is idle speculation based on a lack of factual evidence, well....

I don't remember every implying I had an idea what the actual number might be. Both are guilty of lying. It's only you who keeps focusing on the number.

A2SG said:
Then you might want to consider tapering off on your defenses of him, because you do it often.

Stop bringing him up in this thread about Biden and I'll stop. Deal?

A2SG said:
Fine. You may want to note that I haven't argued against any of those points, then.

When I bring up Biden's wrongdoings, you bring up Trump's wrongdoings. That's called deflection. It can be used to take away focus from the topic of the thread (which in this case is Biden). If you're going to continue this conversation I challenge you to do it without bringing up Trump. See if you can do it.

A2SG said:
I have no problem with his opinion. It's his actions I have a problem with. And I'm not the only one, as he's under indictment for some of them.

What were his actions?

A2SG said:
Yeah, he tweeted that after his words on the ellipse said otherwise.

The ellipse? Don't know what you're referring to here.

A2SG said:
You need a better measuring device, my friend.

You still haven't explained how you measure which is worse. You seem to be dodging the question with sarcastic comments. I can't trust someone's advice that I need "a better measuring device" when you can't even tell me how your "measuring device" works.

A2SG said:
I think I heard he explained his intent behind that. I know you were upset that Biden misinterpreted Trump's words in a previous example, so you may want to look into that. If you're interested in being fair, that is. Or not. Your call.

You think you heard? You sound like Biden who doesn't know if he watched the debate afterwards or not. I'm assuming you mean the NBC interview. He repeated the lie about Trump's very fine people comment. Not a misinterpretation at this point.

A2SG said:
But, regardless, it does seem far-fetched if your implication is that Biden is somehow responsible for the shooting, even in an indirect way. Still, you're free to interpret anything anyway you wish to.

Left wingers call it "dog whistling" and "stochastic terrorism". They believe it's possible and not far-fetched at all.

A2SG · Jul 17, 2024

MrMoe said:
An interpretation based on your anti-Trump bias rather than any evidence.

If I have an "anti-Trump bias," it came from an assessment of the evidence, eg his record and performance as President and actions afterward. Prior to the 2016 election, I didn't care much about Trump one way or the other.

MrMoe said:
Then why did you bring up Trump believing the 2020 election was stolen? it's just his opinion. No one is required to care about it one way or the other, but it seems you do.

Again, as I said before, I don't care about his opinions. It's his actions that concern me. And I'm not the only one, as he's under indictment for some of those actions, awaiting trial.

MrMoe said:
Not my interpretation, It's the dictionary definition.

I'm in the dictionary now? Imagine that....

MrMoe said:
Are you saying you would turn that unlikely event down if it did happen?

Yeah, I probably would turn down an invitation to spend the night with Valerie Bertinelli. I'm happily married. Now, had she asked about thirty years ago....

MrMoe said:
You don't believe these "Blue MAGA" types exist?

I'm sure they're leading the league in strikes, well ahead of the Chubacabras.

MrMoe said:
Dodging the question with sarcasm I see. How does this special scale measure what is worse?

By comparing them. I put them on the scale, a pointer points to "bad egg" as a horn goes off, and that's how I know.

MrMoe said:
What has he been doing all this time?

Sounds like you have some catching up to do!

MrMoe said:
Yes, that's what you refer to as an opinion.

Yup.

MrMoe said:
I wasn't talking about the jury. You brought up the jury.

Well, who else found him guilty on all 34 counts? Here's a hint: it wasn't Joe Biden.

MrMoe said:
I was talking about everyone else watching from the outside.

None of them had a say in the matter.

MrMoe said:
They felt the conviction (not the trail, as you incorrectly stated) was politically motivated to hurt Trump.

And who decided on the verdict of guilty, and thus convicted him? The jury.

MrMoe said:
You mean the US government being used for nefarious purposes? If you consider that farfetched you need to read learn the history of the US Government.

But we're not talking about the government doing something here. The verdict came from the jury, 12 citizens picked by both sides and determined as capable of rendering a fair verdict. They found Trump guilty on all 34 counts, not the US government. If you want to claim the conviction was politically motivated, you'll have to show that all 12 jurors were willing participants in the scheme.

If, instead, you're just muttering your own uninformed opinion, that's all right then. That's much easier to ignore.

MrMoe said:
I would love to know what actions, words, and overall attitude during all of his legal battles led you to that conclusion.

I sincerely doubt that. See, I've been paying attention during this exchange of ours, and I know you're only looking to defend Trump. So I'm not going to bother answering that. Suffice to say, you and I have already seen the same stuff, and have already come to two different conclusions. I see no reason to think any other outcome is gonna happen, and I'm really not interested your defenses of him.

MrMoe said:
No that's not what I'm suggesting.

This is what you said: "But his insistence that he's innocent of all charges, despite being found guilty, does attest to the view that the law shouldn't apply to him."

I'm simply asking you since you believe Trump protesting his innocence attests to the view that the law shouldn't apply to him, does that mean you believe other's protesting their innocence attests to the view that the law shouldn't apply to them?

I guess it would depend on the things they do beyond simply claiming they are innocent. As I've said, it isn't Trump's opinions that concern me, it's his actions. Including the ones he's been indicted for.

MrMoe said:
You keep repeating that number, but we don't know how accurate that is because Politfact doesn't compile every lie ever told by the candidates.

It's accurate to the extent that Politifact has provided documentation and evidence for every one. So we know these lies actually exist, and have been demonstrated. If you want to imagine there are any more, it's on you to provide similar documentation if you want me to accept your imagination as anything close to reality.

MrMoe said:
You confusing guilt with severity of the offence. They are both guilty of lying. No such thing as "more guilty".

So one lie is the same as 700 lies, in your opinion?

Sorry, but I don't agree.

MrMoe said:
That leads me to the flaw in your argument. You're ignoring the severity of the offence. If someone told you a little white lie that they liked your shirt but in reality thought it looked horrible, but another person told you a family member was responsible for a serious crime. Which would have more impact on your life?

Wait a second...didn't you just argue that there is no such thing as "more guilty"?

You're arguing both sides here. Tell you what...figure out whether or not one lie is the same as 700, and get back to me when you've decided.

MrMoe said:
A person could tell you a hundred white lies that have no impact on your life but another can tell one lie that can severely impact your life. You keep bringing up the number of lies both have told as if that shows Trump is far worse but that doesn't take into account the severity of the lies.

Remember this:

A2SG said:
As we've concluded, everyone lies. Some more than others. Trump continues to spread the lie that the 2020 election was stolen, and that lie had far more serious repercussions than your example had.

So....why complain about one lie, but not the other, far more serious one?

I've compared lies, both in number and severity. Trump comes out far, far ahead in both.

MrMoe said:
I expect you to clutch your pearls like you do when Trump lies.

Nah, I don't do that when stuff that happens all the time continues to keep happening.

MrMoe said:
He did more than that? What are those things he did?

You keep defending Trump as much as you do, and then you expect me to believe you don't know the stuff he's done?

Nope, not buyin' it.

MrMoe said:
I don't remember every implying I had an idea what the actual number might be. Both are guilty of lying. It's only you who keeps focusing on the number.

You said you believed Trump and Biden were "about equal" regarding lies. I was trying to show you how wrong that belief is. By measuring the number of lies, and the severity of lies.

MrMoe said:
Stop bringing him up in this thread about Biden and I'll stop. Deal?

You're free to stop any time you want to. I'm not forcing you to respond.

MrMoe said:
When I bring up Biden's wrongdoings, you bring up Trump's wrongdoings.

Sure, when they are comparable. And in those cases, Trump comes out far worse. Then you go on to defend Trump, and I don't even try to defend Biden at all.

Lather, rinse, repeat...

MrMoe said:
That's called deflection. It can be used to take away focus from the topic of the thread (which in this case is Biden). If you're going to continue this conversation I challenge you to do it without bringing up Trump. See if you can do it.

Remember my initial comment? That's all that needed to be said. If you want to simply regard our entire exchange since then as off-topic and unnecessary, and move on from it, I won't object.

MrMoe said:
What were his actions?

Read the indictment, if you truly don't know.

MrMoe said:
The ellipse? Don't know what you're referring to here.

You're kidding, right?

MrMoe said:
You still haven't explained how you measure which is worse. You seem to be dodging the question with sarcastic comments. I can't trust someone's advice that I need "a better measuring device" when you can't even tell me how your "measuring device" works.

I'm being sarcastic because you're asking a ridiculous question. Tell me, how do you think I'm measuring which candidate is worse?

How do you?

MrMoe said:
You think you heard? You sound like Biden who doesn't know if he watched the debate afterwards or not. I'm assuming you mean the NBC interview. He repeated the lie about Trump's very fine people comment. Not a misinterpretation at this point.

Never mind. You're obviously not interested enough to actually read what I wrote.

MrMoe said:
Left wingers call it "dog whistling" and "stochastic terrorism". They believe it's possible and not far-fetched at all.

So take it up with them. I don't speak for them, remember?

-- A2SG, and I know I've never used either of those terms......

MrMoe · Jul 18, 2024

A2SG said:
If I have an "anti-Trump bias," it came from an assessment of the evidence, eg his record and performance as President and actions afterward. Prior to the 2016 election, I didn't care much about Trump one way or the other.

Which are?

A2SG said:
Again, as I said before, I don't care about his opinions. It's his actions that concern me. And I'm not the only one, as he's under indictment for some of those actions, awaiting trial.

It seems these indictments are the only thing that make Trump worse than Biden in your eyes. So does this mean you were you a Trump supporter in 2016 before these indictments were a thing?

A2SG said:
I'm in the dictionary now? Imagine that....

You're belief that Trump is manipulating the law in his favor using his lawyers is called a conspiracy theory and yes that's in the dictionary.

A2SG said:
I'm sure they're leading the league in strikes, well ahead of the Chubacabras.

Didn't answer the question, just more deflection. You don't believe these "Blue MAGA" types exist?

A2SG said:
By comparing them. I put them on the scale, a pointer points to "bad egg" as a horn goes off, and that's how I know.

This just tells me you can't explain your own process.

A2SG said:
Well, who else found him guilty on all 34 counts? Here's a hint: it wasn't Joe Biden.

None of them had a say in the matter.

But they do have opinions.

A2SG said:
And who decided on the verdict of guilty, and thus convicted him? The jury.

But we're not talking about the government doing something here. The verdict came from the jury, 12 citizens picked by both sides and determined as capable of rendering a fair verdict. They found Trump guilty on all 34 counts, not the US government. If you want to claim the conviction was politically motivated, you'll have to show that all 12 jurors were willing participants in the scheme.

The jury don't need to be participants in a scheme. Ever heard of the term "useful idiots"?

A2SG said:
If, instead, you're just muttering your own uninformed opinion, that's all right then. That's much easier to ignore.

The irony of this statement is thick given that you've been claiming Trump is manipulating the law in his favor without any evidence.

A2SG said:
I sincerely doubt that. See, I've been paying attention during this exchange of ours, and I know you're only looking to defend Trump. So I'm not going to bother answering that. Suffice to say, you and I have already seen the same stuff, and have already come to two different conclusions. I see no reason to think any other outcome is gonna happen, and I'm really not interested your defenses of him.

Simple solution. If you stop talking about Trump I will stop defending him. This thread is about Biden anyway. The title makes this very clear.

A2SG said:
I guess it would depend on the things they do beyond simply claiming they are innocent. As I've said, it isn't Trump's opinions that concern me, it's his actions. Including the ones he's been indicted for.

Which are?

A2SG said:
It's accurate to the extent that Politifact has provided documentation and evidence for every one. So we know these lies actually exist, and have been demonstrated.

No one is disputing that.

A2SG said:
If you want to imagine there are any more, it's on you to provide similar documentation if you want me to accept your imagination as anything close to reality.

You actually believe Politifact has compiled ever single lie told both candidates have ever told and that they haven't missed any? To quote you, I've got some pieces of a suit I'd like to sell you.

It took Snopes eight years to debunk the " Trump called neo-nazis and white supremacists the very fine people" lie. who knows what lies Politfact has yet to debunk.

No, Trump Did Not Call Neo-Nazis and White Supremacists 'Very Fine People'

However, the accuracy of what Trump did claim – that there were "very fine people on both sides" of the 2017 Unite the Right debacle – is in question.

www.snopes.com

For someone who claims to have a strong imagination it's very strange that you struggle with this.

A2SG said:
So one lie is the same as 700 lies, in your opinion?

Sorry, but I don't agree.

It depends severity of the lie, like the example I gave you.

A2SG said:
Wait a second...didn't you just argue that there is no such thing as "more guilty"?

Read what I told you carefully "You confusing guilt with severity of the offence. They are both guilty of lying. No such thing as "more guilty"".

I'm talking the severity of the lie. Both are guilty of lying. There is no such thing as "more guilty" just like there is no such thing as one dead person being more dead than another dead person.

A2SG said:
You're arguing both sides here. Tell you what...figure out whether or not one lie is the same as 700, and get back to me when you've decided.

See above reply to alleviate your confusion.

A2SG said:
Remember this:

I've compared lies, both in number and severity. Trump comes out far, far ahead in both.

Are the repercussions more serious than what Biden said about covid?

This was just posted by another member on this forum.

I wonder how many people got covid and possibly even died because they believed this. Ironically Biden got covid again.

A2SG said:
Nah, I don't do that when stuff that happens all the time continues to keep happening.

That makes sense. That's why you don't to it when Biden continues to lie.

A2SG said:
You keep defending Trump as much as you do, and then you expect me to believe you don't know the stuff he's done?

Nope, not buyin' it.

He's done a lot of stuff. I'm just wanting specifics.

A2SG said:
You said you believed Trump and Biden were "about equal" regarding lies. I was trying to show you how wrong that belief is. By measuring the number of lies, and the severity of lies.

So far you've given me a number from a website that you believe has complied every lie (unlikely) and have yet to prove Trumps lies are more severe.

A2SG said:
You're free to stop any time you want to. I'm not forcing you to respond.

So is that a no from you then? You won't stop bringing up Trump?

A2SG said:
Sure, when they are comparable. And in those cases, Trump comes out far worse. Then you go on to defend Trump, and I don't even try to defend Biden at all.

Lather, rinse, repeat...

You're basically admitting you're using the "not as bad as" fallacy and can't defend Biden without bringing up Trump.

A2SG said:
Remember my initial comment? That's all that needed to be said. If you want to simply regard our entire exchange since then as off-topic and unnecessary, and move on from it, I won't object.

No I don't remember you initial comment. It's been a long conversation. But I'm glad you're willing to get back on the topic of Biden and stop talking about Trump.

A2SG said:
You're kidding, right?

No. What are you referring to?

A2SG said:
I'm being sarcastic because you're asking a ridiculous question. Tell me, how do you think I'm measuring which candidate is worse?

How do you?

You thing asking someone how they measure which candidate is worse is a ridiculous question? I think that's a completely reasonable question.

I measure them by what they done for the country. If they've made it better or worse. Biden's disastrous handling of the border alone is enough to make him worse than Trump. He has allowed millions of illegal immigrants to flood the country and some have even killed American citizens.

Also his cognitive decline is so obvious now and far worse than any cognitive decline in Trump, RFK or any other candidate currently in the race.
He shouldn't be running for president.

A2SG said:
Never mind. You're obviously not interested enough to actually read what I wrote.

Here's what you wrote: "I think I heard he explained his intent behind that. I know you were upset that Biden misinterpreted Trump's words in a previous example, so you may want to look into that. If you're interested in being fair, that is. Or not. Your call."

What did I miss?

A2SG said:
So take it up with them. I don't speak for them, remember?

-- A2SG, and I know I've never used either of those terms......

What makes you think I have a problem with them on that issue? I'm just pointing out Biden can be somehow responsible for the shooting, even in an indirect way, according to others.

A2SG · Jul 18, 2024

MrMoe said:
Which are?

Did it hurt when you fell off the turnip truck earlier today?

Come on. You know what Trump's done. Everyone does. I'm not going to rehash it, so you can offer more defenses of him.

MrMoe said:
It seems these indictments are the only thing that make Trump worse than Biden in your eyes.

Not the only thing, but they do exist, and they show this isn't just a bias on my part. These are actionable, criminal, unlawful acts, and his guilt will be decided in court. Well, eventually. Hopefully. I guess we'll have to see.

MrMoe said:
So does this mean you were you a Trump supporter in 2016 before these indictments were a thing?

Before Trump ran for president, he was just some buffoon whose brain was transplanted into Bill the Cat's body. I laughed at him for a moment, then went about my day and thought no more about him. I never even watched the Apprentice.

MrMoe said:
You're belief that Trump is manipulating the law in his favor using his lawyers is called a conspiracy theory and yes that's in the dictionary.

Again, the manipulation seems to be going on for him, not by him. Clarence Thomas appears to be the chief architect for that part. It just looks to me that Trump simply believes he's above the law, and should not be held accountable for his actions, and others are ready to make sure that he isn't held accountable. And even more stand ready and willing to defend him, no matter what. You, for example.

MrMoe said:
Didn't answer the question, just more deflection. You don't believe these "Blue MAGA" types exist?

I'm sure they bought up every single piece of Biden's suit that was for sale.

MrMoe said:
This just tells me you can't explain your own process.

More that I don't think it's a serious question, so I'm not taking it seriously.

Do you seriously expect me to believe you don't understand the concept of an individual looking at different sets of criteria and coming to a conclusion about which ones may be better or worse than others?

MrMoe said:
But they do have opinions.

So? People have opinions about who should win the Super Bowl, that doesn't mean their opinion has any bearing on who will win.

MrMoe said:
The jury don't need to be participants in a scheme. Ever heard of the term "useful idiots"?

Oh really? So, who made the jury render 34 guilty verdicts if they weren't actually participants in the process?

Man, talk about conspiracy theories...this is even more ridiculous than anything I've heard concocted.

MrMoe said:
The irony of this statement is thick given that you've been claiming Trump is manipulating the law in his favor without any evidence.

Not quite what I claimed...but if it bothers you, feel free to ignore it.

MrMoe said:
Simple solution. If you stop talking about Trump I will stop defending him. This thread is about Biden anyway. The title makes this very clear.

I never asked you to defend him. I simply stated that I "REALLY don't like" him, and you took it from there. If you didn't feel the need to defend him, that would have been the end of it.

MrMoe said:
Which are?

The actions he's been indicted for. Among others. If you seriously don't know what those actions are, I suggest you read up on the subject, because a lot has happened.

Of course, I don't believe for a second that you aren't aware of them, but this is the game you're playing. I'm just not playing it with you.

MrMoe said:
No one is disputing that.

Cool.

MrMoe said:
You actually believe Politifact has compiled ever single lie told both candidates have ever told and that they haven't missed any? To quote you, I've got some pieces of a suit I'd like to sell you.

I never said they did. But if you want me to believe Biden has told 500+ more lies that Politifact missed, and that Donald Trump hasn't told the same amount, or more, then you're gonna have to provide evidence for that. Otherwise, I'll just assume you're making it all up, and ignore it. Balls in your court, buddy.

MrMoe said:
It took Snopes eight years to debunk the " Trump called neo-nazis and white supremacists the very fine people" lie. who knows what lies Politfact has yet to debunk.

No, Trump Did Not Call Neo-Nazis and White Supremacists 'Very Fine People'

However, the accuracy of what Trump did claim – that there were "very fine people on both sides" of the 2017 Unite the Right debacle – is in question.

www.snopes.com

For someone who claims to have a strong imagination it's very strange that you struggle with this.

No struggles here. I know Politifact isn't able to compile a complete, exhaustive list of every single lie each individual has ever told, and I'm under no illusion their list is such a thing. But, I also have no reason to believe that, were such a list to be compiled, the comparative ratio of lies between these two men wouldn't be similar, or close enough. Especially since, by all indications, Trump lies so often, just about every time he opens his mouth, that I don't believe he even cares if what he says is true or not.

MrMoe said:
It depends severity of the lie, like the example I gave you.

And I've yet to hear Biden utter a single lie that has the severity, or the effect on the entire nation, as the one Trump has continuously spouted about the 2020 election, and still spouts to this day.

MrMoe said:
Read what I told you carefully "You confusing guilt with severity of the offence. They are both guilty of lying. No such thing as "more guilty"".

I responded to that already. Maybe you didn't read it yet. I'll wait.

MrMoe said:
I'm talking the severity of the lie. Both are guilty of lying. There is no such thing as "more guilty" just like there is no such thing as one dead person being more dead than another dead person.

But a person can only die once. He can lie any number of times. By number, and by severity (as I addressed), Trump still comes out far, far ahead.

MrMoe said:
See above reply to alleviate your confusion.

Already addressed.

MrMoe said:
Are the repercussions more serious than what Biden said about covid?

Yes.

MrMoe said:
This was just posted by another member on this forum.

I wonder how many people got covid and possibly even died because they believed this. Ironically Biden got covid again.

Biden isn't a physician, nor is he an expert on infectious diseases. I don't know about you, but I don't look to him for medical advice, and I'd be surprised if there are many who do.

MrMoe said:
That makes sense. That's why you don't to it when Biden continues to lie.

I don't clutch pearls in either case, though it simply doesn't happen nearly as often with Biden as it does with Trump.

MrMoe said:
He's done a lot of stuff. I'm just wanting specifics.

Try seeking out the indictments, if you really want to know. You don't need me to tell you what Trump's been up to.

MrMoe said:
So far you've given me a number from a website that you believe has complied every lie (unlikely) and have yet to prove Trumps lies are more severe.

When did I ever say Politifact has compiled every lie? Please try to refrain from making stuff up.

And I'm not trying to prove Trump's lies are more severe...the truth of that is evident for all who have observed US politics since the 2020 election. But, you're free to interpret the same events differently, if that's your choice.

MrMoe said:
So is that a no from you then? You won't stop bringing up Trump?

I don't have to bring up the subject, it's still being discussed. If you no longer wish to discuss it, feel free to stop doing so. I will cease responding.

MrMoe said:
You're basically admitting you're using the "not as bad as" fallacy and can't defend Biden without bringing up Trump.

I've never even tried to defend Biden. Not once. If you don't like him, that's fine by me. Why my not liking Trump isn't fine by you, and you feel the need to constantly defend him, I have no idea. So far, anyway, nothing you've said has changed my mind about the guy.

MrMoe said:
No I don't remember you initial comment. It's been a long conversation. But I'm glad you're willing to get back on the topic of Biden and stop talking about Trump.

You said: "That's super cruel. You're willing to wheel out Biden like Dianne Feinstein just because you don't like the other guy."

To which I responded: "Well, to be fair, it isn't just because we don't like the other guy, it's because we REALLY don't like the other guy."

Then you asked about my reasons for not liking Trump, and here we are.

If you'd rather just harp on and on about how bad Biden is, I doubt I'd feel the need to respond. So, balls in your court.

MrMoe said:
No. What are you referring to?

The Elllipse is a park across from the White House in Washington DC. Trump gave a speech there a while back. You may have heard of it.

MrMoe said:
You thing asking someone how they measure which candidate is worse is a ridiculous question? I think that's a completely reasonable question.

If you were truly interested in the process, sure. But you're not. You're only interested in defending Trump, because I said I didn't like him. So...

MrMoe said:
I measure them by what they done for the country. If they've made it better or worse. Biden's disastrous handling of the border alone is enough to make him worse than Trump. He has allowed millions of illegal immigrants to flood the country and some have even killed American citizens.

Also his cognitive decline is so obvious now and far worse than any cognitive decline in Trump, RFK or any other candidate currently in the race.
He shouldn't be running for president.

(see what I did there?)

MrMoe said:
Here's what you wrote: "I think I heard he explained his intent behind that. I know you were upset that Biden misinterpreted Trump's words in a previous example, so you may want to look into that. If you're interested in being fair, that is. Or not. Your call."

What did I miss?

When I said "his intent behind that"...what was I referring to?

MrMoe said:
What makes you think I have a problem with them on that issue?

Dunno. You brought it up.

MrMoe said:
I'm just pointing out Biden can be somehow responsible for the shooting, even in an indirect way, according to others.

Oooookay then.

-- A2SG, movin' right along, doog-a-doon doog-a-doon....

MrMoe · Jul 19, 2024

A2SG said:
Did it hurt when you fell off the turnip truck earlier today?

Come on. You know what Trump's done. Everyone does. I'm not going to rehash it, so you can offer more defenses of him.

Like I've said, Trump has done a lot of things. Can't have a conversation if I don't know what they are.

A2SG said:
Not the only thing, but they do exist, and they show this isn't just a bias on my part. These are actionable, criminal, unlawful acts, and his guilt will be decided in court. Well, eventually. Hopefully. I guess we'll have to see.

Other indictments? So basically what I just said.

A2SG said:
Before Trump ran for president, he was just some buffoon whose brain was transplanted into Bill the Cat's body. I laughed at him for a moment, then went about my day and thought no more about him. I never even watched the Apprentice.

What made him a buffoon in your eyes?

A2SG said:
Again, the manipulation seems to be going on for him, not by him. Clarence Thomas appears to be the chief architect for that part.

Okay, so provide evidence to back that up.

A2SG said:
It just looks to me that Trump simply believes he's above the law, and should not be held accountable for his actions, and others are ready to make sure that he isn't held accountable.

Again, provide evidence that this is what Trump believes.

A2SG said:
And even more stand ready and willing to defend him, no matter what. You, for example.

If he's guilty, he's guilty. I won't defend him on any crimes he's committed. I'm just asking what evidence do you have for your conspiracy theory.

A2SG said:
I'm sure they bought up every single piece of Biden's suit that was for sale.

I'll take this reply as " I don't want to out my own side so I'll play dumb".

A2SG said:
More that I don't think it's a serious question, so I'm not taking it seriously.

Do you seriously expect me to believe you don't understand the concept of an individual looking at different sets of criteria and coming to a conclusion about which ones may be better or worse than others?

There's always a reason why people come to different conclusions though. Do you seriously expect me to believe you don't understand the concept there are different reasons for people coming to different conclusions?

A2SG said:
So? People have opinions about who should win the Super Bowl, that doesn't mean their opinion has any bearing on who will win.

I'm not disputing that.

A2SG said:
Oh really? So, who made the jury render 34 guilty verdicts if they weren't actually participants in the process?

Man, talk about conspiracy theories...this is even more ridiculous than anything I've heard concocted.

Is the fact that New York is a deep blue state where people have shouted "New York hates you" at Trump, a conspiracy theory to you?

A2SG said:
Not quite what I claimed...but if it bothers you, feel free to ignore it.

I'm not going to ignore it if you're going to state it while in a conversation with me.

A2SG said:
I never asked you to defend him.

Never claimed you did.

A2SG said:
I simply stated that I "REALLY don't like" him, and you took it from there.

Then now that you've made that clear I expect you'll stop talking about him in this thread. But I doubt you will. The way you keep bringing him up in this conversation it's almost like someone with a secret crush.

A2SG said:
If you didn't feel the need to defend him, that would have been the end of it.

And if you stop bringing him up in this thread about Biden that would be the end of it.

A2SG said:
The actions he's been indicted for. Among others. If you seriously don't know what those actions are, I suggest you read up on the subject, because a lot has happened.

Of course, I don't believe for a second that you aren't aware of them, but this is the game you're playing. I'm just not playing it with you.

We've already been talking about the indictments. What are the others?

A2SG said:
I never said they did. But if you want me to believe Biden has told 500+ more lies that Politifact missed,

When did I claimed that? You pulled that number out of nowhere.

A2SG said:
and that Donald Trump hasn't told the same amount, or more, then you're gonna have to provide evidence for that.

You're straw manning what I said. Never said Donald Trump hasn't told the same amount, or more.

A2SG said:
Otherwise, I'll just assume you're making it all up, and ignore it. Balls in your court, buddy.

Saying Politifact hasn't compiled every lie told by either candidate isn't "making things up" it's provable. The quote below by Biden saying "you're not going to get covid if you have these vaccine." Has not been fact checked by Politfact as of now.

A2SG said:
No struggles here. I know Politifact isn't able to compile a complete, exhaustive list of every single lie each individual has ever told, and I'm under no illusion their list is such a thing. But, I also have no reason to believe that, were such a list to be compiled, the comparative ratio of lies between these two men wouldn't be similar, or close enough. Especially since, by all indications, Trump lies so often, just about every time he opens his mouth, that I don't believe he even cares if what he says is true or not.

If they did compile such a list it would probably number in the thousands for both, making the difference between them negligible.

A2SG said:
And I've yet to hear Biden utter a single lie that has the severity, or the effect on the entire nation, as the one Trump has continuously spouted about the 2020 election, and still spouts to this day.

"You're not going to get covid if you have these vaccine." Fact: More people have died under Biden than under Trump. Who knows how many among those Americans died because they believed what Biden said and didn't take extra measures to protect themselves.

Even if it was just one person, Biden has blood on his hands.

A2SG said:
But a person can only die once. He can lie any number of times. By number, and by severity (as I addressed), Trump still comes out far, far ahead.

Again your talking about severity of the offence. Both men are equally guilty of lying.

A2SG said:
Yes.

How so?

A2SG said:
Biden isn't a physician, nor is he an expert on infectious diseases.

Then why did he say that?

A2SG said:
I don't know about you, but I don't look to him for medical advice, and I'd be surprised if there are many who do.

But he does get information for those who are experts. He has a chief medical advisor.

Also, you're the one who said "I've never even tried to defend Biden. Not once." Looks like you've broken that.

A2SG said:
I don't clutch pearls in either case, though it simply doesn't happen nearly as often with Biden as it does with Trump.

Funny that you're so fixated on numbers just like Trump.

A2SG said:
Try seeking out the indictments, if you really want to know. You don't need me to tell you what Trump's been up to.

We're already talking about the indictments. I thought you would bring up something else.

A2SG said:
When did I ever say Politifact has compiled every lie? Please try to refrain from making stuff up.

You: "It's accurate to the extent that Politifact has provided documentation and evidence for every one. So we know these lies actually exist, and have been demonstrated. If you want to imagine there are any more, it's on you to provide similar documentation if you want me to accept your imagination as anything close to reality."

You think anything outside Politfact's list is my imagination.

A2SG said:
And I'm not trying to prove Trump's lies are more severe...the truth of that is evident for all who have observed US politics since the 2020 election. But, you're free to interpret the same events differently, if that's your choice.

The appeal to common sense fallacy.

A2SG said:
I don't have to bring up the subject, it's still being discussed. If you no longer wish to discuss it, feel free to stop doing so. I will cease responding.

Why do you feel the need to keep responding?

A2SG said:
I've never even tried to defend Biden. Not once.

This comment did age well fast.

A2SG said:
If you don't like him, that's fine by me. Why my not liking Trump isn't fine by you, and you feel the need to constantly defend him, I have no idea. So far, anyway, nothing you've said has changed my mind about the guy.

A lot of people live in echo chambers of their own making and have their minds changed once they come out of that echo chamber. For example J.D. Vance was once a "never Trumper" now he's Trumps VP. Maybe go out of your comfort zone, maybe watch media that isn't left wing.

A2SG said:
You said: "That's super cruel. You're willing to wheel out Biden like Dianne Feinstein just because you don't like the other guy."

To which I responded: "Well, to be fair, it isn't just because we don't like the other guy, it's because we REALLY don't like the other guy."

Then you asked about my reasons for not liking Trump, and here we are.

If you'd rather just harp on and on about how bad Biden is, I doubt I'd feel the need to respond. So, balls in your court.

You don't seem to understand the concept of thread topics. This thread is about Biden and his weighing whether to continue in the race. So I'm obviously going to "harp on" about him.

A2SG said:
The Elllipse is a park across from the White House in Washington DC. Trump gave a speech there a while back. You may have heard of it.

Did Trump tell people to break the law before that speech?

A2SG said:
If you were truly interested in the process, sure. But you're not.

You seem to think you're some kind of psychic or a mentalist. You're not. You're way off.

A2SG said:
You're only interested in defending Trump, because I said I didn't like him. So...

I've told you before, I'm not here to defend Trump, but you insist on bringing him up to take away attention from Biden. Stop bringing Trump up and I'll stop defending him.

A2SG said:
(see what I did there?)

? No idea what you're talking about here.

A2SG said:
When I said "his intent behind that"...what was I referring to?

You tell me. You're the one who wrote it.

A2SG said:
Dunno. You brought it up.

You're the one who said "So take it up with them." Seems like you assumed I had an issue with what the believed. I don't.

A2SG said:
Oooookay then.

-- A2SG, movin' right along, doog-a-doon doog-a-doon....

This might be the first time I've seen cognitive dissonance in written form.

A2SG · Jul 19, 2024

MrMoe said:
Like I've said, Trump has done a lot of things. Can't have a conversation if I don't know what they are.

But Trump's off topic. remember?

When I bring up Biden's wrongdoings, you bring up Trump's wrongdoings. That's called deflection. It can be used to take away focus from the topic of the thread (which in this case is Biden). If you're going to continue this conversation I challenge you to do it without bringing up Trump. See if you can do it.

Were you serious?

Tell you what...I'm game if you are.

Let's see....nothing about Trump, and I'm not going to start defending Biden from whatever it is you have a problem with...

And....we're left with....

-- A2SG, have a nice day!

Biden is weighing whether to continue in the race

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