The theology of gerontocracy ...

Xeno.of.athens · Jun 28, 2024

Having watched the presidential debate, and not caring to make a comment about party politics, all I have to say on the debate is that the debate amounted to saying:

we are old and wise and can stand up 90 minutes, so vote for us!

Indeed, the scriptures urge both Christians and Israelites to honor the elderly and cherish their wisdom. The debate emerges over whether this principle is absolute or if there might be a point when someone is too aged to govern a nation.

Scripture teaches respect for the elderly, as seen in Leviticus 19:32, which instructs people to stand up before the gray head and honor the face of an old man, emphasizing the importance of showing reverence and care to senior citizens.

As voters seek divine wisdom on their journey to the ballot box, these teachings remain a guiding light.

Clare73 · Jun 28, 2024

Xeno.of.athens said:
Having watched the presidential debate, and not caring to make a comment about party politics, all I have to say on the debate is that the debate amounted to saying:

we are old and wise and can stand up 90 minutes, so vote for us!
Indeed, the scriptures urge both Christians and Israelites to honor the elderly and cherish their wisdom. The debate emerges over whether this principle is absolute or if there might be a point when someone is too aged to govern a nation.

Who asserts that the elderly should govern just because they are elderly?
The principle of honoring the elderly and cherishing their wisdom has nothing to do with competency to be president of a country.
Governance is about competence, not about age.

Xeno.of.athens said:
Scripture teaches respect for the elderly, as seen in Leviticus 19:32, which instructs people to stand up before the gray head and honor the face of an old man, emphasizing the importance of showing reverence and care to senior citizens.

As voters seek divine wisdom on their journey to the ballot box, these teachings remain a guiding light.

These teachings have nothing to do with competency to govern a nation.
They are about respecting the elderly as persons, about not dismissing them as insignificant, but honoring them instead.

The Liturgist · Jun 29, 2024

My personal feeling is that President Biden is seriously ill or suffering from severe cognitive decline and needs our prayers, and we should pray for both candidates as we are obliged to do.

In the Orthodox Church we pray for the head of state and all civil authorities, whether we personally agree with them or not.

Richard T · Jun 29, 2024

Xeno.of.athens said:
Having watched the presidential debate, and not caring to make a comment about party politics, all I have to say on the debate is that the debate amounted to saying:

we are old and wise and can stand up 90 minutes, so vote for us!
Indeed, the scriptures urge both Christians and Israelites to honor the elderly and cherish their wisdom. The debate emerges over whether this principle is absolute or if there might be a point when someone is too aged to govern a nation.

Scripture teaches respect for the elderly, as seen in Leviticus 19:32, which instructs people to stand up before the gray head and honor the face of an old man, emphasizing the importance of showing reverence and care to senior citizens.

As voters seek divine wisdom on their journey to the ballot box, these teachings remain a guiding light.

Look at Eli who deferred to his sons as Priests; Samuel who deferred to his sons as judges. People did age out in the bible and turned it over to others. The two examples I give though are both negative. Elijah to Elisha was positive though and a good example. Good leaders help mentor their replacements. Likewise, those being mentored need to show respect. Neither Trump or Biden have any solid replacements at this time, though Trump i think has a chance in the next cycle. Harris I think was a weak choice. She will go the way of Dan Quayle I think.

Biden fails miserably because his cabinet and VP licks were very poor. I can't think of anyone that is going to lead much beyond their current position in the Democratic party except perhaps some of the current Governors.

I sure hope Trump has Gabbard, Rubio, Noem, Burgum, Pompeo (again) and some others that can work together and be appealing in the future either as VP or in cabinet positions.

Xeno.of.athens · Jun 29, 2024

Richard T said:
Look at Eli who deferred to his sons as Priests; Samuel who deferred to his sons as judges. People did age out in the bible and turned it over to others. The two examples I give though are both negative. Elijah to Elisha was positive though and a good example. Good leaders help mentor their replacements. Likewise, those being mentored need to show respect. Neither Trump or Biden have any solid replacements at this time, though Trump i think has a chance in the next cycle. Harris I think was a weak choice. She will go the way of Dan Quayle I think.

Biden fails miserably because his cabinet and VP licks were very poor. I can't think of anyone that is going to lead much beyond their current position in the Democratic party except perhaps some of the current Governors.

I sure hope Trump has Gabbard, Rubio, Noem, Burgum, Pompeo (again) and some others that can work together and be appealing in the future either as VP or in cabinet positions.

I did intend the thread to be theological and only glance at current politics because they are so heated, and the debate spurred me to write the original post. Now I am wondering why Mr Trump still attracts some Christians as a potential leader. I ask because honesty and integrity seem like paramount attributes for any leader and if no potential leader has them then can a Christian in good conscience elect them?

Jamdoc · Jun 29, 2024

Xeno.of.athens said:
Having watched the presidential debate, and not caring to make a comment about party politics, all I have to say on the debate is that the debate amounted to saying:

we are old and wise and can stand up 90 minutes, so vote for us!
Indeed, the scriptures urge both Christians and Israelites to honor the elderly and cherish their wisdom. The debate emerges over whether this principle is absolute or if there might be a point when someone is too aged to govern a nation.

Scripture teaches respect for the elderly, as seen in Leviticus 19:32, which instructs people to stand up before the gray head and honor the face of an old man, emphasizing the importance of showing reverence and care to senior citizens.

As voters seek divine wisdom on their journey to the ballot box, these teachings remain a guiding light.

Wisdom is good but the ravages of the curse on these finite bodies takes its toll and there does come a point when men get too old, and it makes them less capable as leaders.
People should respect the elderly, but that doesn't mean the oldest person should be leader.

David was young when he was made king.

Clare73 · Jul 1, 2024

Xeno.of.athens said:
I did intend the thread to be theological and only glance at current politics because they are so heated, and the debate spurred me to write the original post. Now I am wondering why Mr Trump still attracts some Christians as a potential leader. I ask because honesty and integrity seem like paramount attributes for any leader and if no potential leader has them then can a Christian in good conscience elect them?

No one is sinless.

Give to Caesar what belongs to Caesar, and to God what belongs to God.

Xeno.of.athens · Jul 1, 2024

Clare73 said:
No one is sinless.

Give to Caesar what belongs to Caesar, and to God what belongs to God.

That reply does not make any sense.

bbbbbbb · Jul 2, 2024

Xeno.of.athens said:
That reply does not make any sense.

Nor to myself in the context of this thread. :scratch:

Xeno.of.athens · Jul 3, 2024

Clare73 said:
No one is sinless.

Give to Caesar what belongs to Caesar, and to God what belongs to God.

Xeno.of.athens said:
That reply does not make any sense.

bbbbbbb said:
Nor to myself in the context of this thread.

I think it was a political comment.

bbbbbbb · Jul 3, 2024

Xeno.of.athens said:
I think it was a political comment.

Probably, but, as you pointed out, the theme of your thread is not primarily focused on the current American presidential race. In fact, one can easily expand it to cover such institutions which are ruled by aged people as the British monarchy and the papacy.

Clare73 · Jul 3, 2024

Xeno.of.athens said:
I think it was a political comment.

The qualifications for a minister are not necessarily the qualifications for a politician (post #7).

Ministry is about spiritual competence, governance is about secular competence, neither is about age (gerontocracy), per se.

bbbbbbb · Jul 3, 2024

Clare73 said:
The qualifications for a minister are not necessarily the qualifications for a politician.

Ministry is about God's calling, governance is about secular competence.

Nevertheless, it would be foolish to imagine that a young man with a freshly minted D. D. as well as a calling from God is just as capable of ministry as a man with thirty years of pastoral ministry, perhaps without a D. D. but with a calling from God.

Clare73 · Jul 3, 2024

bbbbbbb said:
Nevertheless, it would be foolish to imagine that a young man with a freshly minted D. D. as well as a calling from God is just as capable of ministry as a man with thirty years of pastoral ministry, perhaps without a D. D. but with a calling from God.

Relevance to post #12?

bbbbbbb · Jul 3, 2024

Clare73 said:
Relevance to post #12?

You attempted to draw a dichotomy between God's calling and competency, did you not? I do not see the rationale behind the concept that because a man believes that he is called by God, he has no need to develop competency within the standard parameters of society as a whole.

To the point of this thread, is there a culture of gerontocracy today within secular governance (including secular democracies as well as monarchies and non-democratic governments)? As I noted earlier, this discussion could be expanded to include religious hierarchies such as the papacy, as well.

Clare73 · Jul 3, 2024

bbbbbbb said:
You attempted to draw a dichotomy between God's calling and competency, did you not?

Actually, the dichotomy is between qualifications (spiritual) for a minister and qualifications (natural) for a politician.

The qualifications for a minister are not required for the politician.
I do not use ministerial qualifications to evaluate a politician, I use secular qualifications for that evaluation.

bbbbbbb · Jul 3, 2024

Clare73 said:
Actually, the "dichotomy" is between qualifications (spiritual) for a minister and qualifications (natural) for a politician.

Here are the qualifications given in scripture for an elder/overseer (there are no scriptural qualifications given for a pastor, priest, or minister) -

I Timothy 2:2 An overseer, then, must be above reproach, the husband of one wife, temperate, prudent, respectable, hospitable, able to teach, 3 not addicted to wine or pugnacious, but gentle, peaceable, free from the love of money. 4 He must be one who manages his own household well, keeping his children under control with all dignity 5 (but if a man does not know how to manage his own household, how will he take care of the church of God?), 6 and not a new convert, so that he will not become conceited and fall into the condemnation incurred by the devil. 7 And he must have a good reputation with those outside the church, so that he will not fall into reproach and the snare of the devil.

There is nothing here about being called by God, is there? Nor do I see anything about formal education. What I see here is a set of standards not at all unlike standards for any managerial job. There is a relative age limit - not a new convert, but no upper limit, apart from the ticklish situation if an overseer's wife dies and he is no longer "the husband of one wife". There is also the debatable item concerning children. If the children grow up and leave the home, does that mean he is no longer qualified?

Please provide me with any other list of qualifications from scripture if you have them for discussion. Thank you.

Clare73 · Jul 3, 2024

bbbbbbb said:
Here are the qualifications given in scripture for an elder/overseer (there are no scriptural qualifications given for a pastor, priest, or minister) -

I Timothy 2:2 An overseer, then, must be above reproach, the husband of one wife, temperate, prudent, respectable, hospitable, able to teach, 3 not addicted to wine or pugnacious, but gentle, peaceable, free from the love of money. 4 He must be one who manages his own household well, keeping his children under control with all dignity 5 (but if a man does not know how to manage his own household, how will he take care of the church of God?), 6 and not a new convert, so that he will not become conceited and fall into the condemnation incurred by the devil. 7 And he must have a good reputation with those outside the church, so that he will not fall into reproach and the snare of the devil.

There is nothing here about being called by God, is there? Nor do I see anything about formal education. What I see here is a set of standards not at all unlike standards for any managerial job. There is a relative age limit - not a new convert, but no upper limit, apart from the ticklish situation if an overseer's wife dies and he is no longer "the husband of one wife". There is also the debatable item concerning children. If the children grow up and leave the home, does that mean he is no longer qualified?

Please provide me with any other list of qualifications from scripture if you have them for discussion. Thank you.

Thanks. . .see posts #7 and #12 (the issue).

Xeno.of.athens · Jul 3, 2024

Clare73 said:
The qualifications for a minister are not necessarily the qualifications for a politician (post #7).

Ministry is about spiritual competence, governance is about secular competence, neither is about age (gerontocracy), per se.

Voting is about what?

There is a theology behind what one chooses to support.

bbbbbbb · Jul 3, 2024

Xeno.of.athens said:
Voting is about what?

There is a theology behind what one chooses to support.

If one's faith does not mold one's entire life then there may be reason to question the reality of that faith. Like it or not, our politicians have asserted their professed religious beliefs into the public sphere.

The theology of gerontocracy ...

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I will give you the keys of the Kingdom of heaven.

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Blood-bought

I will give you the keys of the Kingdom of heaven.

Well-Known Member

I will give you the keys of the Kingdom of heaven.

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Blood-bought

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Blood-bought

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Blood-bought

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Blood-bought

I will give you the keys of the Kingdom of heaven.

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