Persistent Rumors’ of ‘Stringent, Radical’ Suppression of Traditional Latin Mass Grow Stronger

Michie · Jun 26, 2024

Traditionalist Catholic websites and media began discussing last week what they describe as “persistent rumors” of a planned Vatican document, which is supposedly meant to suppress entirely the celebration of the extraordinary form of the liturgy, often called the “Traditional Latin Mass.”

Credit: Thoom / Shutterstock.
The current round of speculation began in earnest when Rorate Caeli, a traditionalist website, carried a post last week citing “the most credible sources” to say that a “Vatican document with a stringent, radical, and final solution banning the Traditional Latin Mass” exists and was being pushed for papal approval.

The post did not include details about the alleged document’s provisions, who had drafted it, or on whose instructions, but did claim that “the same ideologues who imposed [the 2021 motu proprio] Traditionis Custodes and its implementation… are still frustrated with its apparently slow results” and were pressing for news restrictions by Pope Francis.

The Pillar has not been able to confirm the existence of such a document. But curial officials in Rome hear many of the same rumors, and pay attention to American Catholic media of all kinds, so many of them are now discussing whether the Vatican will really impose new restrictions on the more ancient forms of the liturgy — and if so, what any new policies might hope to achieve.

And some officials said that in their view, any new policies will have to be weighed carefully against the pushback they provoke, both from those committed to the TLM, and those concerned with the reach of papal authority.

Continued below.

Is there a secret plan to suppress the TLM — again?

And if more restrictions are coming, what could they hope to achieve?

www.pillarcatholic.com

AlexB23 · Jun 26, 2024

Michie said:
Traditionalist Catholic websites and media began discussing last week what they describe as “persistent rumors” of a planned Vatican document, which is supposedly meant to suppress entirely the celebration of the extraordinary form of the liturgy, often called the “Traditional Latin Mass.”

Credit: Thoom / Shutterstock.
The current round of speculation began in earnest when Rorate Caeli, a traditionalist website, carried a post last week citing “the most credible sources” to say that a “Vatican document with a stringent, radical, and final solution banning the Traditional Latin Mass” exists and was being pushed for papal approval.

The post did not include details about the alleged document’s provisions, who had drafted it, or on whose instructions, but did claim that “the same ideologues who imposed [the 2021 motu proprio] Traditionis Custodes and its implementation… are still frustrated with its apparently slow results” and were pressing for news restrictions by Pope Francis.

The Pillar has not been able to confirm the existence of such a document. But curial officials in Rome hear many of the same rumors, and pay attention to American Catholic media of all kinds, so many of them are now discussing whether the Vatican will really impose new restrictions on the more ancient forms of the liturgy — and if so, what any new policies might hope to achieve.

And some officials said that in their view, any new policies will have to be weighed carefully against the pushback they provoke, both from those committed to the TLM, and those concerned with the reach of papal authority.

Continued below.

Is there a secret plan to suppress the TLM — again?

And if more restrictions are coming, what could they hope to achieve?

www.pillarcatholic.com

Until the document is released, we should wait and see. The Pope has too much power in my opinion.

chevyontheriver · Jun 26, 2024

AlexB23 said:
Until the document is released, we should wait and see.

Of course.

AlexB23 said:
The Pope has too much power in my opinion.

Too much power or abusing the power he rightfully has? Not sure which. He is reckless.

He would be making a huge mistake going ahead with this. Lots of plain Catholics who have never even gone to a TLM mass will see such a move as spiteful, mean, nasty, and unnecessary.

What will I do? Probably accept that his ruling will be a mistake and if I am bound by obedience to it I will try to obey, praying for the day when sanity can return.

AlexB23 · Jun 26, 2024

chevyontheriver said:
Of course.

Too much power or abusing the power he rightfully has? Not sure which. He is reckless.

He would be making a huge mistake going ahead with this. Lots of plain Catholics who have never even gone to a TLM mass will see such a move as spiteful, mean, nasty, and unnecessary.

What will I do? Probably accept that his ruling will be a mistake and if I am bound by obedience to it I will try to obey, praying for the day when sanity can return.

If I was a priest who did a Latin Mass, and the Pope banned me from doing it, I will still do the Latin mass, but have a projector screen in my church with English translation to skirt the rules. No wonder why Protestants do not like Popes. I am not liking his overreach either, as a Catholic.

chevyontheriver · Jun 26, 2024

AlexB23 said:
If I was a priest who did a Latin Mass, and the Pope banned me from doing it, I will still do the Latin mass, but have a projector screen in my church with English translation to skirt the rules. No wonder why Protestants do not like Popes. I am not liking his overreach either, as a Catholic.

Many Latin masses have already been forced out of the parish church, sometimes to a basement or a hall, and sometimes off parish property.

Young priests have to ask permission of their bishop, who in turn has to ask permission of the Vatican. No guarantee the answer will be a 'yes'.

Bishops have to stop priests from putting anything about a TLM in their bulletins. This according to new Vatican rules.

A parish that had a TLM going during Covid, one of the only places where one could go to mass at the time, now has an English mass instead in that time slot. Victory I guess. Hispanics and Anglos could attend the same mass. Now they are separated by language where they were united by language before.

Think of the Orthodox, who always have some reason to stay distant from us. Could they trust the pope not to shut down their distinctive liturgy? We could be pursuing a Lutheran Ordinariate. But what Lutheran would feel absolutely safe from a pope shutting that all down in favor of uniformity? Perhaps the FSSP and ICK will be safe in this, perhaps the Anglican Ordinariate will be safe too, and perhaps all of the other Catholic rites with different liturgical practices will be safe. But who knows.

Apparently the document is already written and the plan is to hatch it July 16th, the three year anniversary of Traditiones custodes. By the way, a possible translation of the title is 'Jailers of the Tradition' rather than the suggested 'Custodians of the Tradition/. It feels like that. And pope Francis probably sings Pete Rodriguez' 'I Like It Like That'. ( A Mi Me Gusta Asi)

AlexB23 · Jun 26, 2024

chevyontheriver said:
Many Latin masses have already been forced out of the parish church, sometimes to a basement or a hall, and sometimes off parish property.

Young priests have to ask permission of their bishop, who in turn has to ask permission of the Vatican. No guarantee the answer will be a 'yes'.

Bishops have to stop priests from putting anything about a TLM in their bulletins. This according to new Vatican rules.

A parish that had a TLM going during Covid, one of the only places where one could go to mass at the time, now has an English mass instead in that time slot. Victory I guess. Hispanics and Anglos could attend the same mass. Now they are separated by language where they were united by language before.

Think of the Orthodox, who always have some reason to stay distant from us. Could they trust the pope not to shut down their distinctive liturgy? We could be pursuing a Lutheran Ordinariate. But what Lutheran would feel absolutely safe from a pope shutting that all down in favor of uniformity? Perhaps the FSSP and ICK will be safe in this, perhaps the Anglican Ordinariate will be safe too, and perhaps all of the other Catholic rites with different liturgical practices will be safe. But who knows.

Apparently the document is already written and the plan is to hatch it July 16th, the three year anniversary of Traditiones custodes. By the way, a possible translation of the title is 'Jailers of the Tradition' rather than the suggested 'Custodians of the Tradition/. It feels like that. And pope Francis probably sings Pete Rodriguez' 'I Like It Like That'. ( A Mi Me Gusta Asi)

Even though I do not know Latin, it is sickening what is happening to the Catholic church in 2024. Oh wait, all denominations are going through the worst days. Protestants are going full LGTV, while Catholics are trying to undo traditions. Is this the end times, cos churches have not gone through such a big change all simultaneously like this before, except for 1517 AD and 1054 AD.

Remind me when July 16th arrives, cos that is only 20 days away or so.

For reference, here is Pete Rodriguez' 'I Like It Like That'. ( A Mi Me Gusta Asi), which I might have heard a long time ago.

chevyontheriver · Jun 26, 2024

AlexB23 said:
Even though I do not know Latin, ...

Latin is easy.

AlexB23 said:
... it is sickening what is happening to the Catholic church in 2024. Oh wait, all denominations are going through the worst days. Protestants are going full LGTV, while Catholics are trying to undo traditions. Is this the end times, cos churches have not gone through such a big change all simultaneously like this before, except for 1517 AD and 1054 AD.

Yes, but then as now there are people who pray hard and keep the whole mess from collapsing.

AlexB23 said:
Remind me when July 16th arrives, cos that is only 20 days away or so.

OK. I really hope someone clues in the pope that he would be making too big of a mess on this.

AlexB23 said:
For reference, here is Pete Rodriguez' 'I Like It Like That'. ( A Mi Me Gusta Asi), which I might have heard a long time ago.

That is exactly the one! When I say I go Latin sometimes I mean it.

AlexB23 · Jun 27, 2024

chevyontheriver said:
Latin is easy.

Yes, but then as now there are people who pray hard and keep the whole mess from collapsing.

OK. I really hope someone clues in the pope that he would be making too big of a mess on this.

That is exactly the one! When I say I go Latin sometimes I mean it.

Yeah, someone has got to tell the Pope that this is a total mess.

chevyontheriver · Jun 27, 2024

AlexB23 said:
Yeah, someone has got to tell the Pope that this is a total mess.

He has a small and tight circle of hand picked advisors. Yes men who want to stay in the inner circle.

Wolseley · Jun 27, 2024

For the life of me, I cannot understand the problem with the Latin Mass. So people want the old Latin Mass---so what? What on earth does it hurt to let them have the Latin Mass???

Does it damage the Church? No. Does it undermine the authority of the Church? No. Does it present any problems at all, outside of petulant pique on the part of those who dislike it? No. So what's the problem? What possible harm does it cause to let the people who want the old Latin Mass to have their Latin Mass??? It would seem to me to cause more harm in trying to suppress it, in that it drives traditionalist Catholics away from the Church.

I can understand Bergoglio's heartache with it, because he's a Jesuit, and as we all know, the Jesuits never left the Summer of Love---they still think they're being trendy by their edginess and rebellious attitudes, even though the "Spirit of Vatican II" has been dead and buried even longer than Nancy Pelosi; but, they keep digging it up and giving it a new coat of spray paint to try to keep it going just....a....little....longer.

Frankie allows open schism in Germany, he soft-pedals sexual perversions, he drags pagan idols into St. Peter's Basilica, and he bad-mouths Americans, calling us backwards and other charming sobriquets, but for ordinary, devout people who simply want a Mass they can reverently worship in, oh, no, he has to come down on that with both feet and wipe it out!!!

I just don't get it.

Akita Suggagaki · Jun 27, 2024

chevyontheriver said:
Latin is easy.

Sure, if you have a translation.

fide · Aug 2, 2024

Wolseley said:
For the life of me, I cannot understand the problem with the Latin Mass. So people want the old Latin Mass---so what? What on earth does it hurt to let them have the Latin Mass???

Does it damage the Church? No. Does it undermine the authority of the Church? No. Does it present any problems at all, outside of petulant pique on the part of those who dislike it? No. So what's the problem? What possible harm does it cause to let the people who want the old Latin Mass to have their Latin Mass??? It would seem to me to cause more harm in trying to suppress it, in that it drives traditionalist Catholics away from the Church.

I can understand Bergoglio's heartache with it, because he's a Jesuit, and as we all know, the Jesuits never left the Summer of Love---they still think they're being trendy by their edginess and rebellious attitudes, even though the "Spirit of Vatican II" has been dead and buried even longer than Nancy Pelosi; but, they keep digging it up and giving it a new coat of spray paint to try to keep it going just....a....little....longer.

Frankie allows open schism in Germany, he soft-pedals sexual perversions, he drags pagan idols into St. Peter's Basilica, and he bad-mouths Americans, calling us backwards and other charming sobriquets, but for ordinary, devout people who simply want a Mass they can reverently worship in, oh, no, he has to come down on that with both feet and wipe it out!!!

I just don't get it.

I realize that this thread is "ancient" - but looking at it again, and your comment that "the Spirit of Vat. 11" is dead and buried: praise God if it were so, but it is not and never will be. It is imposible for "progressives" to be at peace with faithful Traditional Catholics - just as impossible, I would say, for there to be lasting peace in the Middle East or for the Swamp to love Trump. To look to find the ultimate spirit guiding anti-Traditionalists, or the secular political Swamp, or the anti-Israel radicals of the world, you will see the same spirit: evil.

It may sound to be a strange example/comparison, but consider the radical anti-gun obsession of the political progressives, and compare them to the anti-TLM Mass obsession of the religiously "progressive" Catholics. Both manifestations of "progressivism" look with disdain and contempt at the "backward-looking" traditional troublers of the peace who resist the obsession of the left's "their way or the highway" bottom line. How so? both the secular progressives and the religious progressives want to disarm their traditionalist enemy. 1) The TLM strengthens faithful catechized Catholics spiritually. Lex orandi. lex credenti! 2) Private ownership of guns - the 2nd Amendment - ultimately enables self-defense of the law-abiding patriotic citizenry. The left, in whatever sphere of society they rule, wants everyone under them weak, and as ignorant as possible, so as to be pliant subjects subservient to them - the very well-fed and comfortable ruling class.

The Way of Jesus is so different:

Mrk 10:42 And Jesus called them to him and said to them, "You know that those who are supposed to rule over the Gentiles lord it over them, and their great men exercise authority over them.
Mrk 10:43 But it shall not be so among you; but whoever would be great among you must be your servant,
Mrk 10:44 and whoever would be first among you must be slave of all.
Mrk 10:45 For the Son of man also came not to be served but to serve, and to give his life as a ransom for many."

RileyG · Aug 2, 2024

AlexB23 said:
If I was a priest who did a Latin Mass, and the Pope banned me from doing it, I will still do the Latin mass, but have a projector screen in my church with English translation to skirt the rules. No wonder why Protestants do not like Popes. I am not liking his overreach either, as a Catholic.

There is usually a hand missal where you can follow along. No projector necessary.

AlexB23 · Aug 2, 2024

RileyG said:
There is usually a hand missal where you can follow along. No projector necessary.

Nice. A missal would save money over having to change projector bulbs.

Persistent Rumors’ of ‘Stringent, Radical’ Suppression of Traditional Latin Mass Grow Stronger

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