Whoso eats my flesh, and drinks my blood, has eternal (AGE-LASTING) life; and I will raise him up at (TO) the last day.

orbiter · Jun 24, 2024

Peace in Christ.

The Greek word for “eternal” is “αἰώνιον”…transliterated “aiōnion”. “aionion” = AGE-LASTING or age-during. It should not be translated as “eternal” for it has a limited duration….an age. Most bibles have mistranslated the word into “everlasting” or “eternal.”

John 6:47 KJV
(47) Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life.

John 6:47
Young's Literal Translation
'Verily, verily, I say to you, He who is believing in me, hath life age-during;

The gospel is not about “dying and going to Heaven”. It is about having “eternal life”…that is, an age-lasting life… now in this earth and now in this current mortal body we are living in.

It is in this present, evil age that Jesus is delivering us out of by having an age-lasting life. This age shall not mortally destroy us as He renders death idle for us now. Salvation is now.

Galatians 1:4
Young's Literal Translation
who did give himself for our sins, that he might deliver us out of the present evil age, according to the will of God even our Father,

Our Savior…our Deliverer that delivers us out of this present evil age…has “abolished” death (that is, rendering it idle.) We shall NEVER mortally die into the rest of this age through His sacrifice that He made for us. He delivers us out of this present evil age by giving our mortal bodies an age-lasting life so as to never experience death. He died for us so that we do not have to.

2 Timothy 1:10
Young's Literal Translation
and was made manifest now through the manifestation of our Saviour Jesus Christ, who indeed did abolish death, and did enlighten life and immortality through the good news,

It is about our mortal body now. We have an age-lasting life now in it. He is raising/standing us up TO (not “at”) the last day. The last day = the end of this age. We are kept mortally standing here throughout the rest of this age to the last day of it.

John 6:54
(54) Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal (AGE-LASTING) life; and I will raise him up at (TO) the last day.

Those who shall endure (stay behind) unto the end (the end of this age) shall be saved. They stay behind in this earth by being preserved mortally alive unto the end of the age.

Mat 24:13-14 KJV
(13) But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.
(14) And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.

And those who mortally endure unto the end of this age (at the “last trump”) shall have their mortal bodies changed into immortal….never experiencing death at all until that moment. This mortal body (having never died) must put on immortality at the very end of this age. Until then, we LIVE BY FAITH which keeps our mortal bodies alive until then.

1Co 15:52-53 KJV
(52) In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
(53) For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

NewLifeInChristJesus · Jun 24, 2024

orbiter said:
Peace in Christ.

The Greek word for “eternal” is “αἰώνιον”…transliterated “aiōnion”. “aionion” = AGE-LASTING or age-during. It should not be translated as “eternal” for it has a limited duration….an age. Most bibles have mistranslated the word into “everlasting” or “eternal.”

John 6:47 KJV
(47) Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life.

John 6:47
Young's Literal Translation
'Verily, verily, I say to you, He who is believing in me, hath life age-during;

The gospel is not about “dying and going to Heaven”. It is about having “eternal life”…that is, an age-lasting life… now in this earth and now in this current mortal body we are living in.

It is in this present, evil age that Jesus is delivering us out of by having an age-lasting life. This age shall not mortally destroy us as He renders death idle for us now. Salvation is now.

Galatians 1:4
Young's Literal Translation
who did give himself for our sins, that he might deliver us out of the present evil age, according to the will of God even our Father,

Our Savior…our Deliverer that delivers us out of this present evil age…has “abolished” death (that is, rendering it idle.) We shall NEVER mortally die into the rest of this age through His sacrifice that He made for us. He delivers us out of this present evil age by giving our mortal bodies an age-lasting life so as to never experience death. He died for us so that we do not have to.

2 Timothy 1:10
Young's Literal Translation
and was made manifest now through the manifestation of our Saviour Jesus Christ, who indeed did abolish death, and did enlighten life and immortality through the good news,

It is about our mortal body now. We have an age-lasting life now in it. He is raising/standing us up TO (not “at”) the last day. The last day = the end of this age. We are kept mortally standing here throughout the rest of this age to the last day of it.

John 6:54
(54) Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal (AGE-LASTING) life; and I will raise him up at (TO) the last day.

Those who shall endure (stay behind) unto the end (the end of this age) shall be saved. They stay behind in this earth by being preserved mortally alive unto the end of the age.

Mat 24:13-14 KJV
(13) But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.
(14) And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.

And those who mortally endure unto the end of this age (at the “last trump”) shall have their mortal bodies changed into immortal….never experiencing death at all until that moment. This mortal body (having never died) must put on immortality at the very end of this age. Until then, we LIVE BY FAITH which keeps our mortal bodies alive until then.

1Co 15:52-53 KJV
(52) In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
(53) For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

The undeniable authority on the meaning of Kione Greek words disagrees with you...

In the NT αἰώνιος (with the rare → ἀΐδιος) is used in the sense of eternal in three ways.

1. It is used of God: τοῦ αἰωνίου θεοῦ (R. 16:26, → αἰών, 200). As a predicate of God αἰώνιος contains not merely the concept of unlimited time without beginning or end, but also of the eternity which transcends time.

2. In the latter sense it is used also of divine possessions and gifts. In 2 C. 4:18 the things which are seen (τὰ βλεπόμενα) are compared to the things which are not seen as things temporal (πρόσκαιρα) to things eternal. The same view is developed in Hb., e.g., in 9:14: the πνεῦμα is the πνεῦμα αἰώνιον (“eternal Spirit”) because divine. In the same connection we should mention αἰώνιος δόξα, 2 Tm. 2:10; 1 Pt. 5:10; αἰώνιον βάρος δόξης, 2 C. 4:17; cf. Wis. 10:14; τιμὴ καὶ κράτος αἰώνιον (doxologically), 1 Tm. 6:16; εὐαγγέλιον αἰώνιον, Rev. 14:6; παράκλησις αἰωνία. 2 Th. 2:16; διαθήκη αἰώνιος, Hb. 13:20 (very common in the LXX, as in Gn. 9:16; 17:7; Ex. 31:16; Lv. 24:8; 2 Βασ‌. 23:5); σωτηρία αἰώνιος, Hb. 5:9; Mk. 16 (short ending); cf. Is. 45:17; αἰωνία λύτρωσις, Hb. 9:12; αἰώνιος κληρονομία, Hb. 9:15.

3. The expression αἰώνιος βασιλεία (2 Pt. 1:11) forms a transition to the use of αἰώνιος as a term for the object of eschatological expectation: ζωὴ αἰώνιος, αἰώνιος κληρονομία, Hb. 9:15; αἰώνιοι σκηναί of the place of blessedness, Lk. 16:9; οἰκία αἰώνιος ἐν τοῖς οὐρανοῖς of the heavenly body, 2 C. 5:1. If in such expressions αἰώνιος has the full sense of divine eternity, in τὸ πῦρ τὸ αἰώνιον, Mt. 18:8; 25:41; Jd. 7 (cf. 4 Macc. 12:12), κόλασις αἰώνιος, Mt. 25:46; ὄλεθρος αἰώνιος, 2 Th. 1:9; αἰώνιον ἁμάρτημα, Mk. 3:29 (eternally unforgivable sin) it has in the first instance only the sense of “unceasing” or “endless.” But an expression like κρίμα αἰώνιον, Hb. 6:2 (cf. αἰωνίου κρίσεως, Mk. 3:29, ΑΚΜΠ) shows that here, too, it extends beyond the purely temporal meaning.

4. The concept of eternity is weakened in χρόνοι αἰώνιοι, R. 16:25; 2 Tm. 1:9; Tt. 1:2. This expression is simply a variant of αἰῶνες in the eternity formulae. The phrase in Phlm. 15: ἵνα αἰώνιον αὐτὸν ἀπέχῃς (“that thou shouldest receive him for ever”) reminds us of the non-biblical usage (→ 208) and of οἰκέτης εἰς τὸν αἰῶνα (עֶבֶד עוֹלָם) “slave for life” in Dt. 15:17.

[Sasse, H. (1964–). αἰών, αἰώνιος. In G. Kittel, G. W. Bromiley, & G. Friedrich (Eds.), Theological dictionary of the New Testament (electronic ed., Vol. 1, pp. 208–209). Eerdmans.]

And the undiniable Authority on everything disagrees with you...

27 My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me. 28 And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand. 29 My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of My Father’s hand. 30 I and My Father are one. [The New King James Version (Jn 10:26–30). (1982). Thomas Nelson.]

tonychanyt · Jun 24, 2024

orbiter said:
It should not be translated as “eternal” for it has a limited duration

What limitation?

ESV, John 6:

54 Whoever feeds on my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day.

Strong's Greek: 166. αἰώνιος (aiónios) — 71 Occurrences

BDAG:
① pert. to a long period of time, long ago
② pert. to a period of time without beginning or end, eternal of God
③ pert. to a period of unending duration, without end

On Biblehub, 29 versions used "eternal", 2 used "everlasting", 5 used something else.

orbiter · Jun 24, 2024

Peace in Christ.

Thanks for reading.

We must go to the Greek and not rely on our English-translated bibles where the meanings of many words have been trans-interpreted. Men have translated the bible according to what they thought it meant or by their own private interpretation.

Ok…let us look at 2nd Corinthians 4:18. The “things not seen” are faith and hope. We walk by faith not by sight. Hope that is seen is not hope.

2Co 4:18 KJV
(18) While we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen: for the things which are seen are temporal; but the things which are not seen are eternal (AGE-LASTING).

They are “eternal”….that is, age-lasting …as faith and hope keep us mortally alive for the duration of the remainder of this evil age we are living in.

The just shall LIVE by faith. We live until the coming redemption of this mortal body which is changed into immortal. We are to hope and have faith in these things. We do not mortally die until then. We have “eternal life” NOW in this age. But we must have faith in these things. We must believe in the truth of the good news.

I am using the YLT translation as well as it correctly interprets the word “aionion” as “age-during” rather than “eternal” or “everlasting”.

An “age” is a limited duration. There is a “coming age” after this one ends. We are currently living in an evil age that Jesus delivers us out of via giving our mortal bodies an “age-lasting” life. We continue to live into the coming age.

Young's Literal Translation
we not looking to the things seen, but to the things not seen; for the things seen are temporary, but the things not seen are age-during.

In the next chapter, it describes what is not being seen….that is, FAITH. It is faith that gives us an “age-lasting” life in this mortal body. We walk by faith (something not seen) and not by sight. We believe into Jesus who will change our vile body to be fashioned like unto His.

2Co 5:7 KJV
(7) (For we walk by faith, not by sight)

Also in 2nd Corinthians 5, Paul speaks of the “spirit of faith” (something not seen). The just shall live (being kept mortally alive) by faith until the redemption of their mortal body.

2Co 4:13 KJV
(13) We having the same spirit of faith, according as it is written, I believed, and therefore have I spoken; we also believe, and therefore speak;

What are we to wait and hope for?

The redemption of our mortal bodies which are kept alive now by faith in Christ. T

he redemption happens at the end of this age…hence, we have an age-lasting life in this mortal body until that moment arrives. We live by faith and hope in this. Hope that is seen is not hope.

Rom 8:23-25 KJV
(23) And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.
(24) For we are saved by hope: but hope that is seen is not hope: for what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for?
(25) But if we hope for that we see not, then do we with patience wait for it.

We are sealed with the Holy Spirit of THE (definite article) promise.

What is the promise? The promise of an age-lasting life UNTIL the redemption of the mortal body…the purchased possession. It is that Spirit that dwells in us that makes alive our mortal bodies…giving it the age-lasting life.

Eph 1:13-14 KJV
(13) In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
(14) Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.

It is the “eternal”…that is, the age-lasting…. Spirit that we are sealed with until the redemption of the mortal body. Jesus gave Himself for us through that age-lasting Spirit so that might have that same Spirit keep us alive by His sacrifice throughout the remainder of this age.

Heb 9:14 KJV
(14) How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal (AGE-LASTING) Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?

The age-lasting Spirit is the “earnest” of the inheritance of the redemption of the mortal body. It is age-lasting as by it we are to live an age-lasting life in this earth. It makes alive our mortal bodies for the duration of this age until the moment of the redemption.

Rom 8:11 KJV
(11) But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.

oikonomia · Jun 26, 2024

orbiter said:
Peace in Christ.

Thanks for reading.

We must go to the Greek and not rely on our English-translated bibles where the meanings of many words have been trans-interpreted. Men have translated the bible according to what they thought it meant or by their own private interpretation.

Ok…let us look at 2nd Corinthians 4:18. The “things not seen” are faith and hope. We walk by faith not by sight. Hope that is seen is not hope.

2Co 4:18 KJV
(18) While we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen: for the things which are seen are temporal; but the things which are not seen are eternal (AGE-LASTING).

Paul is establishing opposites - temporary verses not temporary. You are changing that to temporary verses temporary for age-lasting
is simply a longer temporary.

Thankyou for reading as well.

I submit a song to the passage -

orbiter said:
They are “eternal”….that is, age-lasting …as faith and hope keep us mortally alive for the duration of the remainder of this evil age we are living in.

The contrast Paul is establishing there in 2 Cor. 4:18 is
seen and temporary verses unseen and eternal.

You are making it "seen and temporary verses unseen and still temporary (lasting until some age's end) ".

orbiter said:
The just shall LIVE by faith. We live until the coming redemption of this mortal body which is changed into immortal. We are to hope and have faith in these things. We do not mortally die until then. We have “eternal life” NOW in this age. But we must have faith in these things. We must believe in the truth of the good news.

I believe the New Testament teaches that the believers have eternal life now because they have the Son of God.
This eternal life is in the Son of God whom must become ours and we His.

He who has the Son has the life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have the life.
I have written these things to you that you may know that you have eternal life,
to you who believe into the name of the Son of God. (1 John 5:12,13)

The Apostle Paul said for him to live was Christ (him living out Christ and Christ living through him).
But for him to die was gain.
For to me, to live is Christ and to die is gain. (Phil. 1:21)

Though until resurrection, rapture, and transfiguration he temporarily lose his physcal body expects in that
state to be with Christ. That must be an factor of him saying to die is gain (far better).
But I am constrained between the two, having the desire to depart and be with Christ, for this is far better; (v.23)

As long as he has Christ whether in this physical body or temporarily unclothed without it he has Christ.
To have the Son of God is to have eternal life. (1 John 5:12,13)

For Paul to have the Spirit of Christ is to have One whom he will have forever.
For whether in his physical body or temporarily without it awaiting resurrection, he has One whom the triune God has
given to be with us forever - from now on - for eternity.
And I will ask the Father, and He will give you another Comforter, that He may be with you forever, (John 14:16)

I am responding to your post as I read along. I hope I am making a connection tp your overall concept.

orbiter said:
I am using the YLT translation as well as it correctly interprets the word “aionion” as “age-during” rather than “eternal” or “everlasting”.

Usually I run into this preference of renderings from universalists. Maybe I'll meet an exception in you?
We do have from the Apostle Paul a reference to an age without end or world without end. Don't we?

To him be glory in the church by Christ Jesus throughout all ages, world without end. Amen. (Eph. 3:21 Webster)
Or as YLT would render it.
to Him is the glory in the assembly in Christ Jesus, to all the generations of the age of the ages. Amen.

The age of the ages would be all and any age on out into perpetuity.

orbiter said:
An “age” is a limited duration. There is a “coming age” after this one ends. We are currently living in an evil age that Jesus delivers us out of via giving our mortal bodies an “age-lasting” life. We continue to live into the coming age.

Ephesians 3:21 would be infinite duration. Look what he says is the operation of God in that endless age of all ages.
But to Him who is able to do superabundantly above all that we ask or think, according to the power which operates in us,
To Him be the glory in the church and in Christ Jesus unto all the generations forever and ever. Amen. (Recovery Version)

orbiter said:
Young's Literal Translation
we not looking to the things seen, but to the things not seen; for the things seen are temporary, but the things not seen are age-during.

In the next chapter, it describes what is not being seen….that is, FAITH. It is faith that gives us an “age-lasting” life in this mortal body. We walk by faith (something not seen) and not by sight. We believe into Jesus who will change our vile body to be fashioned like unto His.

2Co 5:7 KJV
(7) (For we walk by faith, not by sight)

The mortal life is had by all human beings regardless of whether they have faith or not.

You say it is faith that gives us "age-lasting" life.
But those who have not faith in Christ just as much have this "age-lasting" mortal life.

Those who walk by sight and not faith have a mortality which in all likelihood unless they repent and see the Lord come again,
will last for the duration of their lifespan. Then it will terminate in physical death.

I don't think your appeal to faith and walking by faith takes the eternal out of eternal life.
And this eternal life is a Person - the Son of God whom the saved have from the moment of regeneration on out into eternity.

He who has the Son has the life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have the life.
I have written these things to you that you may know that you have eternal life,
to you who believe into the name of the Son of God. (1 John 5:12,13)

You have some more written. I think this response from me so far expresses what I want to
tell you up this point.

For the most part, especially in John's writings eternal life is equal to the Person of the Son of God Himself.
Matthew, I think, contains something of an exception. Or maybe a caveat would be a better word.

The whole word of God contains together Paul's, Matthew's and John's revelation given to them by the Triune God.

orbiter · Jun 26, 2024

oikonomia said:
Paul is establishing opposites - temporary verses not temporary. You are changing that to temporary verses temporary for age-lasting
is simply a longer temporary.

Thankyou for reading as well.

I submit a song to the passage -

The contrast Paul is establishing there in 2 Cor. 4:18 is
seen and temporary verses unseen and eternal.

You are making it "seen and temporary verses unseen and still temporary (lasting until some age's end) ".

I believe the New Testament teaches that the believers have eternal life now because they have the Son of God.
This eternal life is in the Son of God whom must become ours and we His.

He who has the Son has the life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have the life.
I have written these things to you that you may know that you have eternal life,
to you who believe into the name of the Son of God. (1 John 5:12,13)

The Apostle Paul said for him to live was Christ (him living out Christ and Christ living through him).
But for him to die was gain.
For to me, to live is Christ and to die is gain. (Phil. 1:21)

Though until resurrection, rapture, and transfiguration he temporarily lose his physcal body expects in that
state to be with Christ. That must be an factor of him saying to die is gain (far better).
But I am constrained between the two, having the desire to depart and be with Christ, for this is far better; (v.23)

As long as he has Christ whether in this physical body or temporarily unclothed without it he has Christ.
To have the Son of God is to have eternal life. (1 John 5:12,13)

For Paul to have the Spirit of Christ is to have One whom he will have forever.
For whether in his physical body or temporarily without it awaiting resurrection, he has One whom the triune God has
given to be with us forever - from now on - for eternity.
And I will ask the Father, and He will give you another Comforter, that He may be with you forever, (John 14:16)

I am responding to your post as I read along. I hope I am making a connection tp your overall concept.

Usually I run into this preference of renderings from universalists. Maybe I'll meet an exception in you?
We do have from the Apostle Paul a reference to an age without end or world without end. Don't we?

To him be glory in the church by Christ Jesus throughout all ages, world without end. Amen. (Eph. 3:21 Webster)
Or as YLT would render it.
to Him is the glory in the assembly in Christ Jesus, to all the generations of the age of the ages. Amen.

The age of the ages would be all and any age on out into perpetuity.

Ephesians 3:21 would be infinite duration. Look what he says is the operation of God in that endless age of all ages.
But to Him who is able to do superabundantly above all that we ask or think, according to the power which operates in us,
To Him be the glory in the church and in Christ Jesus unto all the generations forever and ever. Amen. (Recovery Version)

The mortal life is had by all human beings regardless of whether they have faith or not.

You say it is faith that gives us "age-lasting" life.
But those who have not faith in Christ just as much have this "age-lasting" mortal life.

Those who walk by sight and not faith have a mortality which in all likelihood unless they repent and see the Lord come again,
will last for the duration of their lifespan. Then it will terminate in physical death.

I don't think your appeal to faith and walking by faith takes the eternal out of eternal life.
And this eternal life is a Person - the Son of God whom the saved have from the moment of regeneration on out into eternity.

He who has the Son has the life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have the life.
I have written these things to you that you may know that you have eternal life,
to you who believe into the name of the Son of God. (1 John 5:12,13)

You have some more written. I think this response from me so far expresses what I want to
tell you up this point.

For the most part, especially in John's writings eternal life is equal to the Person of the Son of God Himself.
Matthew, I think, contains something of an exception. Or maybe a caveat would be a better word.

The whole word of God contains together Paul's, Matthew's and John's revelation given to them by the Triune God.

Peace in Christ.

Hi oikonomia,

Thank you for the song! Thank you for being kind as well.

I will address your other thoughts later as I am pressed for time today.

Paul’s ultimate comparison is what we are looking at: things which are seen vs. things which we don’t see.

The things of this world that we literally see with our literal eyes are as a vapor (very temporary) and not age-lasting (indeed a “longer temporary”). This is the exact point being discussed in 2 Corinthians 4:18 .

What is “age-lasting” is that which endures to the very end of this current age. It has a limited duration. Those who endure to the end of this age, the same are saved.

We must get rid of the word “eternal” in our understanding as the precise Greek word means “age-lasting”. This present age has an ending….and the next age has a beginning.

The people of this world do not live mortally to the end of this age…but those who will do the will of God do mortally live until then.

Our mortal bodies are temporary because flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God. Mortality is only for this age…to the end of this age. An age-lasting life applies only to our mortal lives in this age.

So faith and hope keep our mortal bodies alive (age-lasting life) until we are changed into immortal at the very end of this present evil age. We do not perish…mortally die…as we continue to live to the redemption moment.

Faith and hope are age-lasting ….for the “longer temporary” ….for both are completed at the end of this age at the redemption of our mortal bodies (the changing them over from the temporary mortal to the never-ending immortal) and inherit the kingdom of God.

We fix our eyes on Jesus as Jesus is the Author and COMPLETER (to finish) our faith. So the things not seen are definitely age-lasting (not “eternal” as understood by most) as they are for the duration of this age while we live out this current age in our mortal bodies.

2Co 4:18 KJV
(18) While we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen: for the things which are seen are temporal; but the things which are not seen are eternal (age-lasting).

The just (righteous) walk by faith and not be what they see. The just shall LIVE by faith. They do not put their faith in what they literally see with their literal eyes.

Those who see with their literal eyes are “blind” to the gospel.

They see that glittering, big fancy church on the hill and its large congregation and think that Jesus and the true gospel must be being preached there when they are not.

But that is where we are being deceived by our own eyes into thinking that we are inheriting “eternal life” by going there but are instead being led down the broad way to our mortal destruction by false prophets.

In contrast, those who are “blind” to what they see in this fleeting world may SEE…understand.

They walk by faith and not by what they see with their literal eyes. They are not awed by what they see in this world but have faith in things hoped for.

John 9:39 KJV
(39) And Jesus said, For judgment I am come into this world, that they which see not might see; and that they which see might be made blind.

Things of this world are passing away now. They are temporal. This is a present-tense thing as nobody who focuses on this world (the lust of the eyes) has an age-lasting life. Their mortal, earthly lives are temporal as a vapor and not the longer age-lasting life to be had by those who live by faith.

The lust of the eyes of the things in this world is “temporal”. The world and its lusts pass away like a vapor for nothing we literally see in this world will keep you mortally alive for the duration of this age.

The things of this world seen with our literal eyes all pass away in the present tense. People of this world (who love this world) only exist “for a while” and not for the duration of this present age.

1Jn 2:15-17
(15) Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him.
(16) For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world.

But he that does the will of God abides INTO THE AGE….to the very end of this age.

This is temporary as this present “age” has an ending.

An age-lasting life speaks of our MORTAL BODY’S age-during life to the end of this age. An age-lasting life in the mortal body is much longer compared to a temporal, worldly life. The mortal body does not die when one does the will of God but lives to the very end of this age

(17) And the world passeth away, and the lust thereof: but he that doeth the will of God abideth for ever (into the age).

Young's Literal Translation
and the world doth pass away, and the desire of it, and he who is doing the will of God, he doth remain -- to the age.

The devil had SHOWN Jesus all the kingdoms of the world and the glory of them. Those who look at such things do not last the rest of this age. Their lives are cut short from this earth. They enjoy sin for only a “season” and then their mortal bodies are cut down from this earth in the judgment of God.

Mat 4:8-9 KJV
(8) Again, the devil taketh him up into an exceeding high mountain, and sheweth him all the kingdoms of the world, and the glory of them;
(9) And saith unto him, All these things will I give thee, if thou wilt fall down and worship me.

To be continued..

oikonomia · Jun 27, 2024

orbiter said:
Paul’s ultimate comparison is what we are looking at: things which are seen vs. things which we don’t see.

When Christ was dispensed into Paul he received something called "the inner man".
That is the life of Christ working His way out from his innermost spiritual being, migrating its influence more and more
throughout his soul and eventually his body. This process of Christ as life spreading, migrating, invading more and more outward into
the rest of his soul and body is the renewing of the inner man.

The outer man is suffering the decaying which is an affliction. But the more powerful moving into the outer man of Christ, the old man is
being overcome with a process resulting in something not temporary or of affliction but eternal - everlasting and triumphantly glorious.

The first of three related comparisons is with the decaying outer man and the renewing inner man in verse 2 Cor. 4:16.
Therefore we do not lose heart; but though our outer man is decaying, yet our inner man is being renewed day by day. (v.16)
That is the decay of the old and outward being superceded by the renewal of the new an inner.

The second comparison is related to the first. the momentary lightness of this discomforting affliction verses the eternal weightiness of the splendour, the glory of God manifest in and throughout the whole being of the saved.
For our momentary lightness of affliction works out for us, more and more surpassingly, an eternal weight of glory, (v.17)
The suffering is actually assisting the Christians who is incentivized to be strengthened into the inner realm of Christ renewing migration into his being.

The third comparison also related in the contrast between the seen temporary (like the temporary trials and afflictions) verses the unseen
final destiny to which all believers are headed which is never ending and eternal.
Because we do not regard the things which are seen but the things which are not seen; for the things which are seen are temporary, but the things which are not seen are eternal. (v.18)

Again:
1.) The inner man's renewing must prevail over the outer man's decaying - v.16
2.) The eternal weight of the glory of God manifested in man must prevail over the comparitively light affliction of the old man's decaying. (v.17)
3.) The unseen inevitable and eventual splendour to come must prevail over the seen decaying of the outer old man of the Adamic Christless nature. (v. 18)

You began your response with the wish of "peace in Christ" to me. Don't then tamper with this biblical hope of the New Testament's
proclamation of victory of Christ's life triumphantly swallowing up the temporary, seen, momentary decay of the old man.
For also, we who are in this tabernacle groan, being burdened, in that we do not desire to be unclothed, but clothed upon, that what is mortal may be swallowed up by life. (2 Cor. 5:4)

The three comparisons which Paul outlines reminds very much of John's promise that we do not yet manifested what we
will be as manifest sons of God. But we know we will be like this Son of God.

Beloved, now we are children of God, and it has not yet been manifested what we will be. We know that if He is manifested, we will be like Him because we will see Him even as He is. (1 John 3:2)

Paul's comparison also echoes the man manifestation of the sons of God for which we Christians and all creation for that matter groan in
expectation.

For I consider that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the coming glory to be revealed upon us.
For the anxious watching of the creation eagerly awaits the revelation of the sons of God.
For the creation was made subject to vanity, not of its own will, but because of Him who subjected it,
In hope that the creation itself will also be freed from the slavery of corruption into the freedom of the glory of the children of God. (Rom. 8:18-21)

The guarantee of this outcome is the pledge of the Spirit of Christ as the foretaste and appetizer of the final full taste of the enjoyment
of God's life saturating us.

And not only so, but we ourselves also, who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan in ourselves, eagerly awaiting sonship, the redemption of our body. (Rom. 8:23)

He who has also sealed us and given the Spirit in our hearts as a pledge. (2 Cor. 1:22)

We do not passively wait but cooperate by allowing and not hindering this renewing, purifying, and saturation of our personalities via
the sanctification process. This requires endurance, longsuffering, unseen hope, rejoicing, praising, and eager expectation of obedience to the life of Christ working its way throughout our being.

For we were saved in hope. But a hope that is seen is not hope, for who hopes for what he sees?
But if we hope for what we do not see, we eagerly await it through endurance. (Rom. 8:24,25)

And everyone who has this hope set on Him purifies himself, even as He is pure. (1 John 3:3)

This life of Christ is the excellent treasure of the power of divine life within the earthen vessel of our decaying outer man.
But we have this treasure in earthen vessels that the excellency of the power may be of God and not out of us. (2 Cor. 4:7)

The more Paul and his co-workers lead by example the more this life flows out from them into his audience.
His own endurance, longsuffering, obedience through trials actually enhances his apostotic ministry of Christ as divine life to the church.

Always bearing about in the body the putting to death of Jesus that the life of Jesus also may be manifested in our body.
For we who are alive are always being delivered unto death for Jesus’ sake that the life of Jesus also may be manifested in our mortal flesh. So then death operates in us, but life in you. (2 Cor. 4:10-12)

For length's sake I stop here.

oikonomia · Jun 27, 2024

orbiter said:
We must get rid of the word “eternal” in our understanding as the precise Greek word means “age-lasting”. This present age has an ending….and the next age has a beginning.

If I understand you rightly, you are asking me to do this:
where I see "eternal life" or "eternal" in the New Testament I must understand that that means until the end of the duration of the church age.

I cannot make this adjustment in my reading of the oracles of the New Testament.
This would be a mistake. I think you are asking this - "Now there is a present age which will come to an end. Eternal life is about the lasting through and until the termination of this present age. - It is an age-lasting life."

Orbiter, this is a mistake to think this way. It is no mistake to understand the church age, the present age or dispensation (if you will) will come to an end. Substituting "age-lasting" as a proper Greek language definition for "eternal life" is a linquistic debate I will not say too much to. But the other implications philosophical and theological to this interpretation are destructive to the New Testament revelation.

orbiter said:
The people of this world do not live mortally to the end of this age…but those who will do the will of God do mortally live until then.

What are you going to do with Jesus telling His disciples that some of them would be killed during the church age?
Are you going to say they did not the will of God?

And you will be delivered up even by parents and brothers and relatives and friends, and they will put some of you to death. (Luke 21:16)

orbiter said:
Our mortal bodies are temporary because flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God.

God's economy is the dispensing of His eternal life and nature in Christ into our entire being.
This saturation of the Triune God into man is prevailing and must swallow up eventually mortality.
The life we have now and forever as we have now and forever the Son of God in whom this life is.
And God wants the believers to know that they have this life from now on if they have the Son of God.

He who has the Son has the life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have the life.
I have written these things to you that you may know that you have eternal life,
to you who believe into the name of the Son of God. (1 John 5:12)

orbiter said:
Mortality is only for this age…to the end of this age. An age-lasting life applies only to our mortal lives in this age.

You seem to be saying:
1.) where you see eternal life read age-lasting (only through the current church age)
2.) this eternal life aka "age-lasting" life is only relevant to the temporary church age which must conclude.

I am not going to make this shift in reading into eternal life this concept.
I would urge you not to do this or teach this way.

If the medicine you prescribe for some ailment is worse than the ailment something is wrong.
You highlight other legitimate concerns you have for the Christian church.
But your remedy of shifting the understanding of eternal life to temporary age-lasting life is not a good medicine.
It does more harm. It obscures and obfuscates requiring you much manuevoring to rationalize.

orbiter said:
So faith and hope keep our mortal bodies alive (age-lasting life) until we are changed into immortal at the very end of this present evil age. We do not perish…mortally die…as we continue to live to the redemption moment.

I cannot say I understand this that well.
I showed you Jesus predicted some quite faithful and obedient disciples would be persecuted and killed in the church age.

Yet the process of God's life spreading and saturating their souls would be thier saving through endurance.
To die in cowardice is undesireable to us. If it be that we die in martyrdom surely Christ has strengthened us inwardly with the support
of His spreading, invading, saturating life in the soul. The soul is saved from the maladies of Adam. And the body will be resurrected
and transfigured.

Some will live to see the Lord Jesus return and never taste physical death. Not all the saints will be asleep in death.
There are are a minority of the total church which will be alive and left remaining.

I fear that the dfficulty in fully grasping your rational is not evidence to its profundity but more an indication that it doesn't work well.

orbiter said:
Faith and hope are age-lasting ….for the “longer temporary”

Unbelief and no faith are "age-lasting" in that regard as well.
Rather think Christ is the eternal life - period.

You cannot read the Gospel of John and miss that John's burden is to present the truth Jesus Christ IS the eternal life.

In Him was life, and the life was the light of men. (John 1:4)

Jesus said to him, I am the way and the reality and the life; (John 14:6a)

Jesus said to her, I am the resurrection and the life; (John 11:25a)

Jesus said to them, I am the bread of life; (John 6:35a)

I have come that they may have life and may have it abundantly. (John 10;10b)

Yet a little while and the world beholds Me no longer, but you behold Me; because I live, you also shall live. (John 14:19)

orbiter said:
….for both are completed at the end of this age at the redemption of our mortal bodies (the changing them over from the temporary mortal to the never-ending immortal) and inherit the kingdom of God.

Are you actually saying your "age-lasting" life of eternal life comes to an end at the end of the church age?

orbiter said:
We fix our eyes on Jesus as Jesus is the Author and COMPLETER (to finish) our faith.

Now this I have to say Amen to. Surely all through second Corinthians Paul is giving a example of how
he and his co-workers keep their eyes on Jesus through all their trials.

Looking away unto Jesus is the way to run the Christian race whether we believers expire or stand here until we see the Lord come back to the earth.
Never do we graduate from keeping our eyes on the Author and Perfector of our faith - Jesus.

orbiter · Jun 27, 2024

Peace in Christ.

To all who read: we must have peace….even if we don’t see eye-to-eye. This is a must if we truly follow Christ. Let us not grieve His Holy Spirit.

Eph 4:30-32 KJV
(30) And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.
(31) Let all bitterness, and wrath, and anger, and clamour, and evil speaking, be put away from you, with all malice:
(32) And be ye kind one to another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, even as God for Christ's sake hath forgiven you.

I ask you (and all who read) to just ponder in your mind for a while what I’m trying to say (and badly at that) before outright rejecting it.

You seem to be grasping most of what I’m trying to say rather than just reading the headline and assume the rest (as most do in these forums) Again, thank you for your time in reading and comprehending.

The “outward man” that Paul is talking about here in 2nd Corinthians 4:16 is the “old man” that behaves in the flesh that needs to be put off.

The “outer man” is equal to “living after the flesh” for that is where the flesh is located (the outer man). When we live after the flesh (the outer man), we mortally die. When we live after the inward Spirit, that Spirit gives our mortal bodies life….an age-lasting life.

The old/outer man “which is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts” must decay away as the inner man gets renewed day by day. We must be renewed in the spirit of our minds. We "faint not"....not becoming weary in well doing.

2Co 4:16-17 KJV
(16) For which cause we faint not; but though our outward man perish, yet the inward man is renewed day by day.
(17) For our light affliction, which is but for a moment, worketh for us a far more exceeding and eternal weight of glory;

2nd Corinthians 4:16 is comparable to what is being said Ephesians 4:22-23. The “outer man” = the “old man”. The “inward man” = renewed in the spirit of the mind (which is inward).

Eph 4:21-23 KJV
(21) If so be that ye have heard him, and have been taught by him, as the truth is in Jesus:
(22) That ye put off concerning the former conversation the old man, which is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts;
(23) And be renewed in the spirit of your mind;

The outer man (the old man) is to be put off as we are to always bear about in the body the dying of the Lord Jesus (keeping of the “daily” sacrifice….dying to sin), so that the life also of Jesus might be made manifest in our body.

His life from within shines outwardly to the mortal flesh which gives it life.

This inner man of Christ is to be made manifest/shine outwardly to the mortal flesh which keeps us alive with an age-lasting life.

Our mortal flesh is kept alive as it is His life that allows this mortal body to keep standing here in this world to the very end of this age we are living in.

2Co 4
(10) Always bearing about in the body the dying of the Lord Jesus, that the life also of Jesus might be made manifest (shine) in our body.
(11) For we which live are alway delivered unto death for Jesus' sake, that the life also of Jesus might be made manifest (shine) in our mortal flesh.

The “light affliction” is the persecution that one receives for living godly in Christ Jesus. This light affliction is only temporary.

2Co 4: KJV
(8) We are troubled on every side, yet not distressed; we are perplexed, but not in despair;
(9) Persecuted, but not forsaken; cast down, but not destroyed;

All that will live godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution….but we are not to render evil for the evil of the persecutors.

2Ti 3:11-12 KJV
(11) Persecutions, afflictions, which came unto me at Antioch, at Iconium, at Lystra; what persecutions I endured: but out of them all the Lord delivered me.
(12) Yea, and all that will live godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution.

The “outer man” (old man) does not fight back with evil against those who persecute as he thoroughly decays away.
We do not any longer behave the way the old man used to behave in his wrath, envy and strife…living after the flesh…living after the outer man.

The outer man must decay away completely and the inner man takes over which gives our outer mortal bodies life.

The “light affliction” is but for a moment (persecution is only momentary) and works for us a far more exceeding and “eternal” (AGE-LASTING) weight of glory. We shall keep living throughout this present age when we put on the new man (as the outer man decays completely away) as we keep living to the very end where we then put on immortality.

Let us not become weary in well doing....letting the outer man perish away.

2Co 4:16-17 KJV
(16) For which cause we faint not; but though our outward man perish, yet the inward man is renewed day by day.
(17) For our light affliction, which is but for a moment, worketh for us a far more exceeding and eternal (age-lasting) weight of glory;

To those who by patient continuance in well doing seek for that glory. They seek honor and immorality. They seek an age-lasting life. The “outer man” decays away with that persistence in well doing.

Rom 2:7
(7) To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal (age-lasting) life:

Those who will continue to sow to his flesh (the OUTER MAN) shall of the flesh reap "corruption"...decay in the outer flesh. He that sows to the Spirit (the inner dwelling of His Spirit) shall reap life age-lasting in his mortal body if we do not become weary in well doing. The "outer man"...living according to the flesh... must decay away so that our mortal bodies do not.

Gal 6:8-9 KJV
(8) For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life (age-lasting) everlasting.
(9) And let us not be weary in well doing: for in due season we shall reap, if we faint not.

We must be renewed in the inner spirit of our mind in order to receive the truth of the gospel. This is the “new wine” ….the truth of the gospel….that must be put in “new bottles” (the inner renewed mind). We must let go of the things we have been receiving….the preaching of the word of men who have misinterpreted the Scriptures.

The Word of Truth is not put into “old bottles”…those who behave in the old man’s ways…for the Word of Truth will burst the bottles and spill out and the bottles will perish. The old man will “burst” out in wrath and evil speaking. They will not retain what they have heard. The mortal bodies of such will perish.

Luk 5:37-39 KJV
(37) And no man putteth new wine into old bottles; else the new wine will burst the bottles, and be spilled, and the bottles shall perish.

The new wine of the Word of Truth is put into new bottles….those who renew the spirit of their minds in order to receive that Word of Truth. Those who receive it are preserved as they will receive an age-lasting life in their mortal bodies.

(38) But new wine must be put into new bottles; and both are preserved.

No man who is still drinking in the preaching of earthly-minded men desire the new for they think that the “old” denominational doctrines are better.

(39) No man also having drunk old wine straightway desireth new: for he saith, The old is better.

We must gird up the loins of our mind….at the disclosure of Jesus Christ who is the One who speaks to us from Heaven as He opens up the Scriptures to our minds.

1Pe 1:13-16 KJV
(13) Wherefore gird up the loins of your mind, be sober, and hope to the end for the grace that is to be brought unto you at the revelation of Jesus Christ;

We are to be “obedient”…that is, attentive hearing (Greek: hupakoē = “attentive hearing”) children and not fashion ourselves according to the former lusts in our ignorance of the Word of Truth. The “old man” must be put away. The “outer man” must decay away completely as we are renewed in the inner man…the inner spirit of the mind...and hear His Word and believe and live an age-lasting life.

(14) As obedient children, not fashioning yourselves according to the former lusts in your ignorance:
(15) But as he which hath called you is holy, so be ye holy in all manner of conversation;
(16) Because it is written, Be ye holy; for I am holy.

oikonomia · Jun 28, 2024

orbiter said:
Peace in Christ.

To all who read: we must have peace….even if we don’t see eye-to-eye. This is a must if we truly follow Christ. Let us not grieve His Holy Spirit.

Amen. He is our peace as well as our eternal life.

orbiter said:
Eph 4:30-32 KJV
(30) And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.
(31) Let all bitterness, and wrath, and anger, and clamour, and evil speaking, be put away from you, with all malice:
(32) And be ye kind one to another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, even as God for Christ's sake hath forgiven you.

I find this edifying and terrific advice. Don't forget to pray for us.

orbiter said:
I ask you (and all who read) to just ponder in your mind for a while what I’m trying to say (and badly at that) before outright rejecting it.

I certainly am. Let us be mutual about this.

orbiter said:
You seem to be grasping most of what I’m trying to say rather than just reading the headline and assume the rest (as most do in these forums) Again, thank you for your time in reading and comprehending.

For me, I am not sure why the definition of "age-lasting" is so important to some dear Christians.
I ask myself "Why now are some so intent to define eternal life as "age-lasting" life?
I think there are other ways to highlight some of the things they wish to convey without this insisted upon definition.

orbiter said:
The “outward man” that Paul is talking about here in 2nd Corinthians 4:16 is the “old man” that behaves in the flesh that needs to be put off.

Yes. I have one. Like you brother, we need to be strengthened INTO our inner man.
That He would grant you, according to the riches of His glory, to be strengthened with power through His Spirit into the inner man, (Eph. 3:16)

Allow me to submit another song on this verse.

orbiter said:
The “outer man” is equal to “living after the flesh” for that is where the flesh is located (the outer man).

Yes. It helps to stand upon the truth that our old man has in fact been crucified with Christ.
This is made real in the Spirit with out spirit - the inner man. This reality becomes practically grasped as we are
strengthened into the inner man and built up with one another in the Spirit.

orbiter said:
When we live after the flesh (the outer man), we mortally die. When we live after the inward Spirit, that Spirit gives our mortal bodies life….an age-lasting life.

I am with you that to "give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit that indwells us" is the apostle's remedy for
the terrible troubles of the body of sin forcing him to do what he hates in chapter 7. And this giving of divine life to our
moral bodies empowers us to overcome the practices of the body Paul speaks of in his former struggle in chapter 7.

Formerly I was taught that Romans 8:11 just pertained to resurrection. This is too limiting and postponing
too much grace and empowerment we must enjoy today.

orbiter said:
The old/outer man “which is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts” must decay away as the inner man gets renewed day by day. We must be renewed in the spirit of our minds. We "faint not"....not becoming weary in well doing.

2Co 4:16-17 KJV
(16) For which cause we faint not; but though our outward man perish, yet the inward man is renewed day by day.
(17) For our light affliction, which is but for a moment, worketh for us a far more exceeding and eternal weight of glory;

2nd Corinthians 4:16 is comparable to what is being said Ephesians 4:22-23. The “outer man” = the “old man”. The “inward man” = renewed in the spirit of the mind (which is inward).

Eph 4:21-23 KJV
(21) If so be that ye have heard him, and have been taught by him, as the truth is in Jesus:
(22) That ye put off concerning the former conversation the old man, which is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts;
(23) And be renewed in the spirit of your mind;

The outer man (the old man) is to be put off as we are to always bear about in the body the dying of the Lord Jesus (keeping of the “daily” sacrifice….dying to sin), so that the life also of Jesus might be made manifest in our body.

His life from within shines outwardly to the mortal flesh which gives it life.

I am glad you also noticed that though glorification and transfiguration await us in the future, it is normal that Christ's life
should be manifested in our mortal bodies in our living. Though Paul was imprisoned and chained in a embarrising way still Christ was magnified in his body. Christ was observed in his reactions, in his endurance and longsuffering, in his love and insistence in rejoicing regardless.
On this side of transfiguration we should be magnifying glasses making Jesus larger in the eyes of those who belittle Him.

This was possible through the prayers of the saints and the bountiful supply of the indwelling Spirit of Jesus Christ impowering
him inwardly.

So that my bonds have become manifest as being in Christ among the whole Praetorian guard and to all the rest. (Phil. 1:13)

For I know that for me this will turn out to salvation through your petition and the bountiful supply of the Spirit of Jesus Christ,
According to my earnest expectation and hope that in nothing I will be put to shame, but with all boldness, as always, even now Christ will be magnified in my body, whether through life or through death. (Phil. 1:19,20)

orbiter said:
This inner man of Christ is to be made manifest/shine outwardly to the mortal flesh which keeps us alive with an age-lasting life.

There's that perculiar expression again "age-lasting life".
Anyway surely we are on the same page that it should be normal that Christ be manifested in our living.
And this manifestation should deepen, expand, and grow. One day if we are overcoming it will be rewarded with splendor in glorification.

This manifestation of the glory can be postponed. It cannot be put off forever indefinitely.
By the time of the new heaven and new earth all those indwelt with the Triune God will together and corporately manifest
the glory of God mingled with man.

orbiter said:
Our mortal flesh is kept alive as it is His life that allows this mortal body to keep standing here in this world to the very end of this age we are living in.

2Co 4
(10) Always bearing about in the body the dying of the Lord Jesus, that the life also of Jesus might be made manifest (shine) in our body.
(11) For we which live are alway delivered unto death for Jesus' sake, that the life also of Jesus might be made manifest (shine) in our mortal flesh.

The “light affliction” is the persecution that one receives for living godly in Christ Jesus. This light affliction is only temporary.

2Co 4: KJV
(8) We are troubled on every side, yet not distressed; we are perplexed, but not in despair;
(9) Persecuted, but not forsaken; cast down, but not destroyed;

All that will live godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution….but we are not to render evil for the evil of the persecutors.

I do think it is important to realize not any kind of trouble qualifies here.
I mean I have had lots of trials which we just the result of my own bad choices or stupidity.

The sufferings Paul speaks of are related to him living Christ in a Christ opposing world.
If you suffer for bad behavior or lose your job and suffer, well, that probably is just a lesson for you to live righteously in Christ rather than
unrighteously in Adam.

So the suffering Paul speaks of as the decaying to his outer man are the consequences of his living godly unto Christ.
They were the price of him living a consecrated life unto God not the concequences of living simply as a typical fallen man in Adam.

orbiter said:
2Ti 3:11-12 KJV
(11) Persecutions, afflictions, which came unto me at Antioch, at Iconium, at Lystra; what persecutions I endured: but out of them all the Lord delivered me.
(12) Yea, and all that will live godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution.

There you have it. I was fired a couple of times for doing poorly at my job. That was not affliction of suffering persecution.
That was suffering for other reasons. That kind of suffering is the common lot of all people.

Sometimes I was under qualified. But ambition and anxiety for money led me into that suffering.
Latter I grew in the Lord and learned to trust Him as a Father who knew all my needs.
And I concentrated more on seeking first His kingdom and His righteousness and God would faithfuly add all necessary things.

I only mention my experience because I think I learned that not all of our sufferings are for Christ.
However, as we are on the path to maturity we can concecrate ALL of our situations to gain more Christ.

oikonomia · Jun 28, 2024

orbiter said:
The “outer man” (old man) does not fight back with evil against those who persecute as he thoroughly decays away.

Actually, the old adamic outer man DOES want to fight back, self vindicate.
It is in the new man that one can leave vindication up to God.
The meek can be empowered to turn the other cheek. The old man is not able to do this usually.
To be strengthened into the inner man one can leave the balancing scales of justice with God.

We know the meek shall inherit the earth.

orbiter said:
We do not any longer behave the way the old man used to behave in his wrath, envy and strife…living after the flesh…living after the outer man.

Yes. It takes going through the "curriculum" of the Father's educating. We have opportunities to learn. Then we have more opportunities. And the Lord expands and growns in us. And His purpose to build us up together is achieved let alone the individual sense of victory.

If we bear the cross one day the cross will bear us.
The cross we bear to terminate the old man will one day hold us up high above typical old man reactions.
The Christian life is more in how we react then in how we act, in my experience.

orbiter said:
The outer man must decay away completely and the inner man takes over which gives our outer mortal bodies life.

The “light affliction” is but for a moment (persecution is only momentary) and works for us a far more exceeding and “eternal” (AGE-LASTING) weight of glory. We shall keep living throughout this present age when we put on the new man (as the outer man decays completely away) as we keep living to the very end where we then put on immortality.

I still don't get your preference to this expression.
But quite well put are some other things you share here.

AGE-LASTING ? ? What is the "AGE" ? - the church age, the millennial age, the age of the ages?

I tried to show eternal life is a Person, the Lord Jesus Himself.
You know we become mingled with Him when we are re-born.
He who is joined to the Lord is one spirit. (1 Cor. 6:17)

That is the beginning of Him saturating, sanctifying, filling, spreading out and growing into our entire being.

Let me ask you this. Do the angels have this eternal life? Do the angels have this "age-lasting" life ?
How would you answer? Angels never die. But they also do not have Christ living in them.
Regenerated human beings have the Triune God living in them as thier eternal life.

So an angel has an everlasting life. But I do not believe they have what the sons of God in the church and/or the New Jerusalem have -
Jesus Himself in His pneumatic form as their eternal life.

orbiter said:
Let us not become weary in well doing....letting the outer man perish away.

2Co 4:16-17 KJV
(16) For which cause we faint not; but though our outward man perish, yet the inward man is renewed day by day.
(17) For our light affliction, which is but for a moment, worketh for us a far more exceeding and eternal (age-lasting) weight of glory;

Great encouraging fellowship here.

orbiter said:
To those who by patient continuance in well doing seek for that glory. They seek honor and immorality. They seek an age-lasting life. The “outer man” decays away with that persistence in well doing.

Rom 2:7
(7) To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal (age-lasting) life:

Maybe I'll come back to Romans 2:7 latter.

orbiter said:
Those who will continue to sow to his flesh (the OUTER MAN) shall of the flesh reap "corruption"...decay in the outer flesh. He that sows to the Spirit (the inner dwelling of His Spirit) shall reap life age-lasting in his mortal body if we do not become weary in well doing. The "outer man"...living according to the flesh... must decay away so that our mortal bodies do not.

Gal 6:8-9 KJV
(8) For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life (age-lasting) everlasting.
(9) And let us not be weary in well doing: for in due season we shall reap, if we faint not.

Because the eternal age does not commence until the intervening time of the millennial kingdom,
the overcoming ones who sow to grace in the Spirit rather than continue sowing to the flesh, will be rewarded in the millennium.

This reward is the reaping of enjoying the manifestation of the eternal life and glory for a thousand years.
It is like graduating on time when one is suppose to as opposed to having to go to "summer school" to graduate latter.

So Paul speaking to Christians in the churches in Galatians tells them on no uncertain terms - it has consequences to not
obey the indwelling grace. It makes a difference to the next age whether they will reap the reward of the millennial kingdom
or be saved with discipline and loss of reward.

If anyone’s work which he has built upon the foundation remains, he will receive a reward;
If anyone’s work is consumed, he will suffer loss, but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire. (1 Cor. 3:14,15)

orbiter said:
We must be renewed in the inner spirit of our mind in order to receive the truth of the gospel. This is the “new wine” ….the truth of the gospel….that must be put in “new bottles” (the inner renewed mind). We must let go of the things we have been receiving….the preaching of the word of men who have misinterpreted the Scriptures.

This is a genuine question:
Is there the hint here that if I do not take "age-lasting" as the definition of eternal then I must be not receiving the truth of the gospel?

orbiter said:
The Word of Truth is not put into “old bottles”…those who behave in the old man’s ways…for the Word of Truth will burst the bottles and spill out and the bottles will perish. The old man will “burst” out in wrath and evil speaking. They will not retain what they have heard. The mortal bodies of such will perish.

I have understood the old wine skins to be traditional religious organizations rather than the organic living Body of Christ which
is the proper container for the Christ living people.

Is not taking "age-lasting" as the better definition of eternal an indicartion of new wine bursting out of old wine skins?

orbiter said:
Luk 5:37-39 KJV
(37) And no man putteth new wine into old bottles; else the new wine will burst the bottles, and be spilled, and the bottles shall perish.

The new wine of the Word of Truth is put into new bottles….those who renew the spirit of their minds in order to receive that Word of Truth. Those who receive it are preserved as they will receive an age-lasting life in their mortal bodies.

Are you saying that taking "age-lasting" as the definition of eternal is an indication of the renewal of the mind?

orbiter said:
(38) But new wine must be put into new bottles; and both are preserved.

No man who is still drinking in the preaching of earthly-minded men desire the new for they think that the “old” denominational doctrines are better.

If I do not use "age-lasting" every time I read eternal life is that being "earthly minded" and thinking in denominational doctrinal terms?

orbiter said:
(39) No man also having drunk old wine straightway desireth new: for he saith, The old is better.

We must gird up the loins of our mind….at the disclosure of Jesus Christ who is the One who speaks to us from Heaven as He opens up the Scriptures to our minds.

1Pe 1:13-16 KJV
(13) Wherefore gird up the loins of your mind, be sober, and hope to the end for the grace that is to be brought unto you at the revelation of Jesus Christ;

I would like to submit one more song "Peace be to the brothers and love with faith"

Thanks for the fellowship.

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Whoso eats my flesh, and drinks my blood, has eternal (AGE-LASTING) life; and I will raise him up at (TO) the last day.

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