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Cultural Meltdown: The Secular Roots of Our Moral Crisis

epostle

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About the Book…​


In this incisive work, Bill Donohue pulls no punches as he contends that our moral crisis is a reflection of two competing visions of morality — one religious and the other secular. The former is grounded in our Judeo-Christian tradition, the latter in radical notions of liberty and equality that are tearing us asunder.

Donohue explains how the religious vision acknowledges belief in God, truth, human nature, natural law, moral absolutes, and Original Sin. It understands the limits of the human condition and thus rejects the notion that human perfectibility can be realized on earth. The secular vision believes none of this, and its adherents are bent on destroying the last vestiges of our religious heritage.

Weaving together examples from the earliest centuries to the Enlightenment to modern times, Donohue seamlessly lays out how to restore our moral code so that the mainstreaming of madness is terminated and rolled back.

What They’re Saying….​


“In this much-needed book, Bill Donohue calls on Catholics, Evangelicals, Orthodox Jews, Mormons, and Muslims to stand up for their beliefs—for their own sakes and for the good of the country.”
—Mary Ann Glendon
“As a sociologist, Bill Donohue understands what happens to a society when the ‘sacred canopy’ of religion is ripped away. He offers a way to extricate ourselves and our communities from the nihilism of a society without God.”
—Anne Hendershott, Ph.D.
“Donohue’s response to our advanced cultural meltdown is not pessimism but pugnacity, in a full-throated defense of the Catholic vision of moral law as the basis of a good moral order.”
—Fr. Paul Sullins, Ph.D.
“Like the prophets, Donohue skewers bad guys—doers of evil and sowers of confusion—with consistent vigor and style.”
—Russell Shaw
“Bill Donohue tells us who the thinkers and activists are who are trying to destroy our Judeo-Christian civilization.”
— Fr. Gerald E. Murray

 

Astrid

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Without a few of those dreadful radicals and
notions of (shudder) liberty and
equality there'd still be public
executions for petty theft, divine right of
kings, inquisition, witch burning, and, women's
rights? Ha. Liberty ? Only for rulers.

As for your " secular" opposition to truth, human nature and law- that charge is far more, with less calimny and more truth, directed at religious institutions.
In point of fact it's absurd.

Attempting to impose moral absolutes always gets the opposite.

You cannot identify an absolute that i can't show
how it goes terribly wrong.

" destroy last vestiges". Nonsense.

But such rhetoric as yours, identifying fellow citizens as
people of consumate evil who must be destroyed
for God and kingdom - that just may help to do it
The last vestige bit, that is.

For lo, and as I've warned before, we in Asia are here in our billions. We're smart, we're ambitious, were hungry and
we are NOT sentimental about your "culture".

Go ahead and tear eachother to pieces in the name of
God.
No book or flaming sword- angel will protect whoever is
left when someone more purposeful shows up to take over.
 
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Bradskii

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belief in God, truth, human nature, natural law, moral absolutes, and Original Sin. It understands the limits of the human condition and thus rejects the notion that human perfectibility can be realized on earth.

Let's have a browse though Bill's list.

I'm not sure that anyone needs to believe in God to live a good life. Could I ask you if you would if you didn't? Would you be able to tell right from wrong? Is how you act determined by your hope for heaven or your fear of hell?

Human nature...well we generally understand human nature to some extent. The better angels of our nature and the demons that we sometimes see are there to be examined. In the believers and unbelievers both. I'm absolutely certain that following a particular religion doesn't give you any greater insight.

Moral absolutes? Would you steal your neighbours gun to prevent him shooting his wife?

Original sin. Hmm, I'm not going to take the rap for someone I don't think existed doing something I don't think happened against the express orders of someone I don't think exists.

The limits of human condition. Gee, there's a long way to go before we finally leave the savannah behind. So I think everyone should be aware of our present limits.

And I think I'm with you on human perfectibility. Has anyone actually claimed this?

And this is some coincidence. I'll actually be in your home town of Hamilton next week. Any suggestions for a couple of good bars and restaurants?
 
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Occams Barber

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—Mary Ann Glendon
“As a sociologist, Bill Donohue understands what happens to a society when the ‘sacred canopy’ of religion is ripped away.
When 'the sacred canopy of religion gets ripped away' ignorance, bigotry and judgementalism often go with it.

OB
 
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Bradskii

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When 'the sacred canopy of religion gets ripped away' ignorance, bigotry and judgementalism often go with it.

OB
Interesting quote here from Bill re priests raping children: https://www.catholicworldreport.com...rgy-sexual-abuse-homosexuality-and-the-media/

'What I’m saying is that gays, more so than heterosexuals, are more likely to abuse minors. And this is clearly the case in the Catholic Church.

And it is immaturity—sexual and emotional immaturity—that leads to this kind of sexual abuse, because these guys are stunted, and their psycho-sexual development hits a plateau. They can’t identify with anybody beyond adolescent age, which is why they associate with them. And, in some cases, molest them. That’s the God’s honest truth.

And I want them (the public) to learn that were it not for the homosexual molesters, we wouldn’t have had this problem in the first place.'

Plus, from here: https://www.catholicleague.org/wp-content/uploads/2018/08/PA-GRAND-JURY-REPORT-DEBUNKED1.pdf

'Most of the alleged victims were not raped: they were groped or otherwise abused, but not penetrated...'

Well, that's fine, then.
 
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eleos1954

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About the Book…​


In this incisive work, Bill Donohue pulls no punches as he contends that our moral crisis is a reflection of two competing visions of morality — one religious and the other secular. The former is grounded in our Judeo-Christian tradition, the latter in radical notions of liberty and equality that are tearing us asunder.

Donohue explains how the religious vision acknowledges belief in God, truth, human nature, natural law, moral absolutes, and Original Sin. It understands the limits of the human condition and thus rejects the notion that human perfectibility can be realized on earth. The secular vision believes none of this, and its adherents are bent on destroying the last vestiges of our religious heritage.

Weaving together examples from the earliest centuries to the Enlightenment to modern times, Donohue seamlessly lays out how to restore our moral code so that the mainstreaming of madness is terminated and rolled back.

What They’re Saying….​


“In this much-needed book, Bill Donohue calls on Catholics, Evangelicals, Orthodox Jews, Mormons, and Muslims to stand up for their beliefs—for their own sakes and for the good of the country.”
—Mary Ann Glendon
“As a sociologist, Bill Donohue understands what happens to a society when the ‘sacred canopy’ of religion is ripped away. He offers a way to extricate ourselves and our communities from the nihilism of a society without God.”
—Anne Hendershott, Ph.D.
“Donohue’s response to our advanced cultural meltdown is not pessimism but pugnacity, in a full-throated defense of the Catholic vision of moral law as the basis of a good moral order.”
—Fr. Paul Sullins, Ph.D.
“Like the prophets, Donohue skewers bad guys—doers of evil and sowers of confusion—with consistent vigor and style.”
—Russell Shaw
“Bill Donohue tells us who the thinkers and activists are who are trying to destroy our Judeo-Christian civilization.”
— Fr. Gerald E. Murray

Subjective morality is the belief that moral principles and values are dependent on individual opinions, personal beliefs, cultural norms, and societal contexts. In this view, what is considered right or wrong can vary from person to person and culture to culture.

We have subjective morality ... there are many people who are not "religious" but their basic moral values often are in line with basic biblical moral teachings. Religion (worship) should not be forced on anyone. Just because there is a biblical moral teaching that is embraced by society doesn't make religion the driving factor ... ie ... most of us can agree it's not morally acceptable to murder someone .... religious or not.

Governments do not have the competence to enforce morality although they often attempt to legislate it. Morality is a social phenomenon which may be reflected in some laws, and some laws may try to enforce a particular moral position on one people group or another.

It's a conundrum - it's a clash - not resolvable by government.

Socially acceptable behavior, refers to the actions that are generally viewed as being appropriate to engage in when in the presence of other people. Social norms are not static and evolve over time in response to changing values, beliefs, and circumstances.
Traditionally morality was measured by what the majority think, do or act ... can't say this is the case today. ??? The government champions minority groups (not just race) who are marginalized (not saying this is wrong necessarily) ... so this flips the traditional on it's head. So ... is traditional morality going to become the marginalized group at some point?

We can make all the laws we want to outlaw what is considered immoral actions by some (perhaps many), but it will not make a dent on the behaviors in our society. There will always be a push back ... from one group or another. Seems there won't be an end to it. ??

The world is very chaotic and I am skeptical ... I don't see it getting better (as far as traditional values are concerned). Hope I'm wrong on that point . ???

Changing cultures and a clash thereof ... no end to it as far as I can see ???
 
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epostle

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Cultural Meltdown: The Secular Roots of Our Moral Crisis​

Amazon review:

In this incisive work, Bill Donohue pulls no punches as he contends that our moral crisis is a reflection of two competing visions of morality — one religious and the other secular. The former is grounded in our Judeo-Christian tradition, the latter in radical notions of liberty and equality that are tearing us asunder.

Donohue explains how the religious vision acknowledges belief in God, truth, human nature, natural law, moral absolutes, and Original Sin. It understands the limits of the human condition and thus rejects the notion that human perfectibility can be realized on earth. The secular vision believes none of this, and its adherents are bent on destroying the last vestiges of our religious heritage.

Weaving together examples from the earliest centuries to the Enlightenment to modern times, Donohue seamlessly lays out how to restore our moral code so that the mainstreaming of madness is terminated and rolled back. You will find answers about:
  • The immorality of legal decisions and their after-effects
  • The connection between freedom and truth — and the secret to their restoration
  • Whether all cultures and civilizations are morally equal
  • The balance between individual rights and the common good
  • The importance of natural law and reason in guiding society
  • What is filling the void of secularization (You will be shocked!)
Additionally, Donohue exposes religious bigotry toward Christians in America and sounds the alarm for governmental accountability since free speech is no longer tolerated when it opposes the approved narrative. The secular vision, he further attests, embraces and promotes radical ideas about sexuality that work to the detriment of individuals and society. Donohue explains how accepting the postmodern, sexually decadent views of “intellectual visionaries” has historically led to violent chaos in other cultures — and may well do so again.

Donohue probes the deep-seated animus that secular intellectuals hold against Western civilization —the United States in particular — and concludes that many have simply given up on their utopian dreams and turned to anarchism and nihilism. He stirringly reveals how their deeply flawed vision of man and society is the source of what ails us and how we will have to recapture our religious roots to restore normalcy. There is no third way.
 
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epostle

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I think we'd all prefer your review. Plus any comments that you might have on the posts that have addressed the claims made by Bill.
I went to Shopper's Drug Mart yesterday and there's a gay rainbow theme all over the store. The same when I went to the bank. I see corporations using their profits endorsing an ideology that is eroding the social order, and shoving it in my face everywhere you look.

God doesn't measure the infinite value of human beings based on sexual preferences. The Pope met with transvestites and told them that, which was followed by a media circus. There's a media blackout on the deaths and diseases peculiar to the LTBGXYZ; it's a lethal lifestyle that nobody talks about. This excludes those with same sex attractions who live holy and chaste lives; they are not sexually confused.
I have no right to publicly object without being charged with a hate crime.
We live in a cultural dictatorship run by elites, where moral relativism is a recycled Golden Calf.
The Church is not the enemy of LTBGXYZ's, but they want us to be. Look what happened at an L.A. Dodgers baseball game last year with the Sisters of Perpetual Indulgence. Sheer mockery. I think the Dodgers lost money on that fiasco.

“I am glad that we are talking about ‘homosexual people’ because before all else comes the individual person, in his wholeness and dignity. And people should not be defined only by their sexual tendencies: let us not forget that God loves all his creatures and we are destined to receive his infinite love.”​
Pope Francis,
We don't shoot our wounded.
 
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Occams Barber

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I went to Shopper's Drug Mart yesterday and there's a gay rainbow theme all over the store. The same when I went to the bank. I see corporations using their profits endorsing an ideology that is eroding the social order, and shoving it in my face everywhere you look.

God doesn't measure the infinite value of human beings based on sexual preferences. The Pope met with transvestites and told them that, which was followed by a media circus. There's a media blackout on the deaths and diseases peculiar to the LTBGXYZ; it's a lethal lifestyle that nobody talks about. This excludes those with same sex attractions who live holy and chaste lives; they are not sexually confused.
I have no right to publicly object without being charged with a hate crime.
We live in a cultural dictatorship run by elites, where moral relativism is a recycled Golden Calf.
The Church is not the enemy of LTBGXYZ's, but they want us to be. Look what happened at an L.A. Dodgers baseball game last year with the Sisters of Perpetual Indulgence. Sheer mockery. I think the Dodgers lost money on that fiasco.

“I am glad that we are talking about ‘homosexual people’ because before all else comes the individual person, in his wholeness and dignity. And people should not be defined only by their sexual tendencies: let us not forget that God loves all his creatures and we are destined to receive his infinite love.”​
Pope Francis,
We don't shoot our wounded.
Given diatribes like this we shouldn't be surprised that people are walking away from Christianity.

OB
 
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Astrid

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Given diatribes like this we shouldn't be surprised that people are walking away from Christianity.

OB
I hope nobody would think any of that has
anything to do with Christianity.
 
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Bradskii

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God doesn't measure the infinite value of human beings based on sexual preferences.
Neither do I. Nor should you.

But now you have got that off your chest you can now concentrate on answering to the responses to Bills complaints. And thinking about some decent recommendations for a cold one or two in Hamilton.
 
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seeking.IAM

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I see corporations using their profits endorsing an ideology that is eroding the social order, and shoving it in my face everywhere you look.

I don't think they are endorsing an ideology. I think they are trying to obtain the good will of their LGBTQ employees while doing focused marketing to a population segment that spends money. Most corporations (save maybe Hobby Lobby and Chik-Fil-A) don't really care too much about ideologies. Most just care about what benefits them.
 
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rturner76

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I think the sword cuts both ways. On one hand, a secular government protects the freedom of people to live by whatever moral code they choose (within the law). Also, the same secular freedom protects any particular religious belief that one chooses to live by (within the law). So the secular rule does not require nor prevent anyone from living by the tenants of their personal morality as long as they adhere to the law of the society. I think it's the best way to allow the highest number of people to live as they wish, again provided they do not victimize members of said society illegally.
 
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Brihaha

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I went to Shopper's Drug Mart yesterday and there's a gay rainbow theme all over the store. The same when I went to the bank. I see corporations using their profits endorsing an ideology that is eroding the social order, and shoving it in my face everywhere you look.

God doesn't measure the infinite value of human beings based on sexual preferences. The Pope met with transvestites and told them that, which was followed by a media circus. There's a media blackout on the deaths and diseases peculiar to the LTBGXYZ; it's a lethal lifestyle that nobody talks about. This excludes those with same sex attractions who live holy and chaste lives; they are not sexually confused.
I have no right to publicly object without being charged with a hate crime.
We live in a cultural dictatorship run by elites, where moral relativism is a recycled Golden Calf.
The Church is not the enemy of LTBGXYZ's, but they want us to be. Look what happened at an L.A. Dodgers baseball game last year with the Sisters of Perpetual Indulgence. Sheer mockery. I think the Dodgers lost money on that fiasco.

“I am glad that we are talking about ‘homosexual people’ because before all else comes the individual person, in his wholeness and dignity. And people should not be defined only by their sexual tendencies: let us not forget that God loves all his creatures and we are destined to receive his infinite love.”​
Pope Francis,
We don't shoot our wounded.

When I see rainbows anywhere, I am reminded they are a gift and a promise from God. Accentuate the positives rather than dwelling on your negative perceptions. Rainbows are gifts from God. It is truly sad how people choose to let hatred and resentment triumph over love for the gift from God. It is a choice. I like how Lenny Kravitz puts it...
Let Love Rule.
 
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essentialsaltes

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Donohue explains how the religious vision acknowledges belief in God, truth, human nature, natural law, moral absolutes, and Original Sin. It understands the limits of the human condition and thus rejects the notion that human perfectibility can be realized on earth. The secular vision believes none of this
Similar to Bradskii, I was struck by the list. As a card carrying secular, here's my take:

*belief in God: I do not believe in any gods. ❌

*belief in truth: I believe in truth. ✅

*belief in human nature: I believe we can characterize human beings, so yes there is a human nature. ✅

*belief in natural law: 'natural law' has a plethora of potential meanings, and a penumbra of potential baggage, but if (following Hobbes) it means ""a precept, or general rule, found out by reason, by which a man is forbidden to do that which is destructive of his life, or takes away the means of preserving the same; and to omit that by which he thinks it may best be preserved."" then yes I believe in natural law. ✅

*belief in moral absolutes: I do not believe in moral absolutes independent of context, and Bill probably doesn't either. If killing in self-defense is justified, then killing is not absolutely wrong. ❌✅

*belief in Original Sin: Nope. ❌

So I think there is actually much more shared among secular and religious worldviews than Donahue allows for in his strawman of secularism.
 
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essentialsaltes

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I went to Shopper's Drug Mart yesterday and there's a gay rainbow theme all over the store. The same when I went to the bank. I see corporations using their profits endorsing an ideology that is eroding the social order, and shoving it in my face everywhere you look.

Which of the 'religious' tenets does this disobey? I think it fits right in.

Studying human nature, we see that some people are attracted to the same sex.
"It's okay to be gay." expresses a moral absolute.
As a matter of reason, we can see that (regardless of our own feelings), there's no reason to prevent gay people from pursuing happiness in the way they want. As a matter of natural law, people should pursue their natural inclinations if they do no injury.
 
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ViaCrucis

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I think "secularism" is a convenient bogeyman for the moral failings of religious institutions, when those institutions are more interested in scoring culture points and winning political games.

Dr. King said that when the Church tries to be master or arm of the state, it loses its prophetic zeal, and becomes an irrelevant club.

More importantly: the Church is never about having the "better morality". The Church, if she is true, is true because there is a Jewish Carpenter that rose from the dead.

-CryptoLutheran
 
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epostle

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Have you ever heard these words: ‘What is true for you is not true for me’ -- ‘Don’t impose your values on me’ -- ‘You have no right to tell me what to do’? Sure you have. These words are very popular. Unfortunately, they have been taught in schools. How many teachers have you heard say, “Come on guys, don’t be scared. There is no right or wrong opinions.”

This is from the idea called relativism. Relativism is the philosophy that denies absolutes or what is really true. There are four kinds of relativism: metaphysical, epistemological, moral, and religious. The metaphysical relativism is the claim that there are no absolutes in reality; epistemological is that there are no absolutes in knowledge; morality is the denial of moral absolutes; and religious is the clam that there is no true religion. We are going to deal mostly with moral relativism in this essay. But first, I must refute the propositions ‘what is true for you is not true for me’ and ‘there is no right or wrong opinion.’

The first proposition, what is true for you is not true for me, is self-contradictory since it asserts an absolute, which is, what is true for you is not true for me. In other words, is it absolutely true that what is true for you is not true for me? Again, it asserts an absolute, making it self-contradictory.

The second proposition, that there is no right or wrong opinions, is a wrong proposition too. Let me give an example of an opinion that can either be right or wrong. If someone says, ‘In my opinion, Osama Bin Laden is dead,’ can he be right or wrong? If Osama is dead, then he is right, if not, then he is wrong. He might not know if he is right or wrong, but he is either right or wrong. Both cannot be true at the same time. Therefore the proposition that there is no right or wrong opinion is false.

Let us start with moral relativism. Moral relativism is the belief that there are no moral absolutes; that morality is relative to something (i.e. individual or society). The other philosophy is called moral absolutism, that there are moral absolutes. Moral means what we ought to do and ought not to do. The question is whether they are absolute or relative. They cannot be both right at the same time, so one must be true. Here are some arguments for relativism.

Argument #1

Values differ from culture to culture. What is right in one culture is not right for another. Since they differ from culture to culture, we can conclude that values are relative.

Response: This argument assumes what it is supposed to be proving; that is, values differ from culture to culture. It doesn’t. What they differ about is what they think value is or their opinions on values. As I have shown before, opinions can be wrong. If one culture believes that murdering six million Jews is morally right, it doesn’t make it so. Also, if this is true, then how can we condemn the Nazis? If there is no objective standard to apply to, then we ought not to condemn them because it would be meaningless. The only reason why we can condemn some things such as the holocaust is that we presuppose an objective or absolute standard that everyone ought to apply to.

Second, this argument presupposes that one should always obey the culture in which he lives in. If my culture says that slavery is okay, does it make it so? Slavery was once permitted by the Supreme Court in the United States. However, we all know that slavery is wrong. So what made us overturn that decision? The answer is that there is a higher law than the civil law in which the government ought to apply to. This is what we call the natural law or moral law. Morality is not dependent on the government, but the government is dependent on the morality.

Argument #2

People have different values. Some believe for example that the death penalty is right and some don’t. Therefore values are relative.

Response: This is pretty much the same thing with the first argument. People can be wrong on what they believe in. If one believes murdering women is okay, we condemn that person. Since we condemn people, it shows that we presuppose an objective value.

Argument #3

Morality is determined by situations. For example, lying is wrong. But lying to the Nazis where the Jews are is right. Since situations are relative and changing, then morality is relative and changing.

Response: Morality is not determined by situations, but conditioned by it. It determines it partly, not wholly. There are three things that make a moral act good or bad: situation, motive, and the act itself. All this means is that one should apply objective principles to situations. Also, this does not prove moral relativism, but situational relativism. For example, murder is wrong, but one must murder someone for self-defense.

What situation does is making a deed right. Killing for self-defense makes killing not murder. Therefore killing for self-defense is not wrong. Also, lying to the Nazis isn’t lying at all because the Nazis don’t have the right to know where the Jews are. Another point people think is true is that good intentions is enough. It is not. Hitler had good intentions, but his actions were not. A good intention can make a deed good, but a good intention does not make a bad deed good.

Argument #4

Morality comes from evolution. Groups that developed morality survived. “Survival for the Fittest” explains it all.

Response: This violates a basic law of all science: the law of causality. It puts more in the effect than the cause. It says that morality comes from non-morality. This is absurd. Therefore it is false. It is also an assumption since biology doesn’t explain anything how or why the mind works, but what happens. Morality doesn’t depend on physical or natural science, but metaphysics, the study of reality or being. Right depends on what is (i.e. animal rights, human rights, etc).

Rebuttal to Response to Argument #4

A greater can come from a less. A person who is older is much smarter, much fatter, and much older than a baby. Also, children tend to be better than their parents. Also, army can come from non-army.

Response to Rebuttal: The example of the person getting older is just growth. Also, if one looks at all the causes, such as all the education and food, it shows that the greater did not come from the less. One must add all the causes. The Mona Lisa is not caused by Da Vinci’s brush. The brush is just an instrument and there is more in Da Vinci than Mona Lisa. Same goes for the army. First, there must be an idea. Then, there must some kind of organized people to make up all the weapons. And then there is all the training one must have. So the army did come from something.

Arguments for Moral Absolutism

Even though the arguments for moral relativism are refuted, it can still be true. To show it isn’t, one must offer some kind of argument for moral absolutism as well. This is what we would look at now.

Argument #1

The first moral experience we have is absolute. For example, we believe the good for ourselves or for the humanity. However we may disagree on how to accomplish this is a different story. Also, there is never a kind of culture that had a totally different kind of values. Honesty, courage, cooperation, wisdom, and self-control has never thought to be evil, while things like lying, theft, murder, torture, and selfishness was never thought to be good. Some may have different definitions of them, but all agree on those points.

Argument #2

The second argument is from moral language. We condemn wrong actions and praise good actions. We say things like “That is not fair!” or “You are wrong!” Those are imperative words and it appeals to a universal or objective standard. This proves that either moral absolutism is true or that all moral argument is impossible and meaningless. But moral argument is possible. Therefore moral absolutism is true.

Argument #3

This argument shows that relativistic morality is self-contradictory. There are no other alternatives to absolute morality because there is no other kind of morality, but no morality at all, just feelings, or conventions, or consensus, or games, or social approval. Absolute morality is saying something like three-sided triangle. If it isn’t three sided, it isn’t a triangle.

Argument #4

The last argument is the practical self-contradictory argument. This argument finds a self-contradiction in a relativist’s practice. Relativists try convincing us that relativism is true. But that is exactly the problem. They suggest that relativism is really right and absolutism really wrong. This is what absolutism is. They assert an absolute. They also condemn actions, which show that they appeal to an absolute.



Read more: https://www.catholicfidelity.com/moral-relativism-refuted-by-apolonio/
 
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