Great tribulation, then rapture

KevinT · Jun 11, 2024

tonychanyt said:
...
The following seems to be the chronological order of events:

End of physical days, space-time dimensions changed

New heavens and new earth established.

I'm not sure about the the universe being swapped out.

2 Peter 3:10
But the day of the Lord will come like a thief. The heavens will disappear with a roar; the elements will be destroyed by fire, and the earth and everything done in it will be laid bare.

This could be the universe going up with a bang, or it could be what Peter was shown, from an earthly point of view. Heaven could be the sky above him.

Rev 6:12
And I looked when He broke the sixth seal, and there was a great earthquake; and the sun became as black as sackcloth made of hair, and the whole moon became like blood; 13 and the stars of the sky fell to the earth, as a fig tree drops its unripe figs when shaken by a great wind. 14 The sky was split apart like a scroll when it is rolled up, and every mountain and island was removed from its place.

Here we have the sky itself being split apart like a scroll, which does sound like the universe being reshaped. But it then also talks about members of our solar system still being present (the sun and moon). And the stars (remote suns) are not really likely to collide with the earth. More likely a meteor shower(?).

Zechariah 14:4
On that day his feet will stand on the Mount of Olives, east of Jerusalem, and the Mount of Olives will be split in two from east to west, forming a great valley, with half of the mountain moving north and half moving south.

Here we have the coming of the Messiah causing great changes to a mountain in Israel. This could be before the destruction of the universe. But it seems to me to be of a different tenor.

I object to the entire universe being reformed because I feel the universe is inhabited by other members of God's creation. Some of these are the "stars" that the dragon's tail flung to the earth (Rev 12:4).

So options I see are

This universe really is empty, and God made it for us to fill. His other creations live is some other universe. So the entire universe will be swapped out. (Possible, but doesn't seem necessary)
The universe contains God's other creations, but everyone is going to get a new home when everything is recreated. (Seems like a waste of all the efforts everyone made of their own worlds, just because ours screwed up).
God is not going to revise the entire universe, but rather just Earth. And the visions shown to Bible writers were of destruction of our world, which seemed like everything to them.
Something else I haven't thought of.

KT

tonychanyt · Jun 11, 2024

KevinT said:
I'm not sure about the the universe being swapped out.

Have you read Liu Cixin's Three Body trilogy? It's got some crazy stuff in there

Jan001 · Jun 14, 2024

tonychanyt said:
reference?

Here is one. This is not how I learned of it though.

Nero as the Antichrist

FirstCenturyBibleTruths · Jun 14, 2024

The great tribulation or great calamity is God’s punishment of the nations for their idolatry, violence and evil. It is further indicated in Revelation 14/8-11; 14/17-20; 16/14-21 as coming upon “great Babylon” - the symbol used to describe this whole world led as it is by false religions, particularly the false Christianity which controls most of Europe, creating great confusion amongst ordinary people – Babylon means ‘confusion’, Genesis 11/9.

Will the believers waiting for their Lord have to suffer this trouble, or will they be spared? The likelihood is that present-day believers will live through this time of trouble, indeed that they have already begun to do so. Jesus promised that for the elect's sake that time would be shortened (Mark 13:20). But those who finally stand approved before the Judge are those "which came out of the great tribulation, and they washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb" (Revelation 7:14).

As that trouble increases, and God pours out His wrath upon the earth, there are indications that true believers will be sheltered from that outpouring. Isaiah describes the great shake-up of human society when God intervenes:

"Come, my people, enter into thy chambers. . . hide thyself as it were for a little moment, until the indignation be over past. For, behold, the LORD cometh out of his place to punish the inhabitants of the earth for their iniquity" (24:18-23, 26:20,21).

Yes, there will still be death during the thousand years. Jesus and the saints will be immortal, but the rest of the earth's population will be mortal, dying creatures, even though their life expectancy will dramatically increase. The information given in the Bible about the thousand years describes a wonderful era of peace, safety, contentment and health when Jesus is King. But it is still not a time of complete perfection. Death, and therefore sin too, will still exist.

Despite the Book of Revelation being written in symbolic language, some aspects of the message are obvious and easily understood:

Jesus Christ will live and reign over the nations of the world;
His faithful disciples will share this work with him;
The Devil (or Satan) (SIN) will be bound throughout this time; so The nations will no longer be deceived.
Other events are also described, which are to occur at the end of the thousand years:
Satan (SIN ) will be loosed from his prison to deceive the nations again;
Some of those nations will gather together in battle against Jesus and his helpers, and will be destroyed by God; and finally
Sin and death will be removed from the earth forever.

However, not everyone will be pleased with the new arrangements. This is difficult to understand in view of the prosperity and peace which will be experienced by so many; but just as Jesus was rejected when he first preached the gospel of the kingdom, so there will be some who will say in their hearts, 'We don't want this man to rule over us'.

At the end of the thousand years, opportunity will be given for these thoughts to have full expression. The symbolic language of Revelation puts it like this: "When the thousand years have expired, Satan (SIN BEING THE ADVERSARY) will be released from his prison and will go out to deceive the nations" (Revelation 20:7). Sin and associated death being seen in the earth again, though only for a short while, contrasts life in the millennium when ‘a child shall die at a hundred’ – Isa 65:20

As the previous era of deceit was ended when Jesus and the saints began widely to spread the Word of God and His Law, it will only re-commence if the teaching of God's Word is once more suspended. It appears that at the end of the thousand years Jesus and the saints will retreat from all parts of the world into the city of Jerusalem (Revelation 20:9). Their absence from government will allow rebels once more to deceive the nations and "gather them together to battle" (Revelation 20:8).

The armies of those who choose to fight against Jesus and the saints will approach Jerusalem, where they will be decisively destroyed: "They went up on the breadth of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city. And fire came down from God out of heaven and devoured them" (Revelation 20:9).

This final destruction of all opposition will lead to a second resurrection and judgement of all who have lived during the thousand years: "I saw the dead, small and great standing before God, and books were opened. And another book was opened, which is the Book of Life. And the dead were judged according to their works ... anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire" (Revelation 20:12-15).

It will be impossible for anyone to claim that they have been treated badly or unfairly. Ample opportunity will be given during the thousand years to understand God's ways and to see the benefit of their widespread application. Those who reject His law will also be fully aware of the consequences of their rejection.

Only when the final rebellion has been stilled, and after the second resurrection and judgement have taken place, can the last action of the thousand years be accomplished: "Death and hell were cast into the lake of fire" (The second death the grave gone forever) and destroyed. "There shall be no more death, nor sorrow, nor crying. There shall be no more pain, for the former things have passed away" (Revelation 21:4). All the world's troubles will be ended-there will be no more crying, and real and lasting peace will extend throughout the earth.

Hope This Helps

FirstCenturyBibleTruths

Semper-Fi · Jun 14, 2024

tonychanyt said:
As for the millennium reign, presently I assume it is only symbolic and not literal.

I find the millennium reign is real and all over the bible.
Ezekiel discusses a prince [Christ] , in the future
when He will rule this Earth (Ezekiel 45:8).
People will never again be oppressed by their rulers.

"Thy Kingdom come" The Good news of the coming Kingdom of God to earth.
After human misrule causes great tribulation that almost wipes out civilization.

The living Christ is coming as “King of kings and Lord of lords” (Revelation 19:11-21),
to put down the rebellion of warring nations (Revelation 17:14), and establish God’s
world-ruling government over all nations (Daniel 2:44; 7:9, 13-14, 18, 22, 27; Isaiah 9:7).

He went away (to heaven) to be coronated, and to return to Earth (Luke 19:12-27).
He will then be on the Earth—Zechariah 14:3-4, 1 Thessalonians 4:16 (Nahum 1:5)

“We give thee thanks, O Lord God Almighty, which art, and wast, and art to come;
because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned” (Revelation 11:17)
“The mountains quake at him, and the hills [will] melt…” (Nahum 1:5), (Rev. 16:18)

x
The seventh angel sounds-Kingdoms of current world become Christs (Rev 11:15)
Will commit thy government into his hand, established with judgement and jutice.
(Isaiah 22:21) Of the increase of his government and peace there shall be no end,
upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom,...(Isaiah 9:7)

He shall return to Earth in clouds Acts 1:9-11(Matthew 24:30). Just as He is
returning (1Thes 4:14-17), the dead in Christ will rise in a resurrection,
made immortal—including all the prophets of old (Luke 13:28).

Beginning of future rule and world government “And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them,
and judgment was given unto them…and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years”
(Revelation 20:4).(Isaiah 11:2-4) And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he
shall separate them one from another,...Matthew 25:32

Jesus said: “And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will
I give power over the nations: And he shall rule them with a rod of iron…” (Rev 2:26-27).
And again, “To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne [on this Earth]”
(Revelation 3:21; Luke 1:32-33). And, “…we shall reign on the earth” (Revelation 5:10).

And I appoint unto you a kingdom, as my Father hath appointed unto me;(Luke 22:29)
Some resurrected saints will rule over 10 cities, some over five (Luke 19:12-19)
Saints shall take the kingdom, and possess the kingdom for ever, (Daniel 7:18)
We shall inherit the earth. (Psalms 25:13-22:26, 37:9, 22,29) not flesh and blood.

-A Kingdom appointed to the saints , made rulers over some cities.
the glorified saints of God made perfect, cities will be ruled by spirit beings.

It was round about eighteen thousand measures: and the name
of the city from that day shall be, The Lord is there. (Ezekiel 48:35)

17At that time they shall call Jerusalem the throne of the Lord; and
all the nations shall be gathered unto it, to the name of the Lord, to Jerusalem:
neither shall they walk any more after the imagination of their evil heart.

Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go
no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city
of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God:
and I will write upon him my new name.

And the Gentiles shall see thy righteousness, and all kings thy glory: and thou shalt
be called by a new name, which the mouth of the Lord shall name. (Isaiah 62:2)

-Jerusalem, the future headquarters city of the Earth (Haggai 2:6-8)
-Land Beneath Sea Reclaimed, converted to Jerusalem(Isaiah 60:5, 11:15).
World’s gold and silver reserves under the seas for beautiful decorations there.
-Gods latter house shall be greater than of the former (Haggai 2:9)
-Jerusalem is uniquely describes as being “compact together,” tall 122:3

-Desolate land shall be tilled - will be like the garden of Eden (Ezekiel 36:34-35)
-Build the waste cities-fresh produce-drink there own wine-farming (Amos 9:14)
-Waste cities “filled with flocks of men” being very social(Ezekiel 36:36-37-38)
-Superhighways between major cities (Isaiah 19:23)

-Cities being crime-free , dwell safely-none be made afraid (Ezekiel 34:28-Micah 4:4)
-No more Violence, nor wasting, nor destruction (Isaiah 60:18)
-Cities overflow with prosperity (Zechariah 1:17) -Equitable property distribution
- every man shall own his vine and fig tree (Micah 4:4-Lev25) and

-“Joy and gladness-thanksgiving-the voice of melody (Isaiah 51:3)(Jeremiah 33:10-11)
-Where old men and old women dwell -full of boys and girls playing (Zechariah 8:4-5)
-No lion shall be there, nor any ravenous beast shall go up (Isaiah 35:9 )
-There will be Shepherds and local animal husbandry (Jer. 33:12)

-Pure Water—Fertile Deserts where trees grow (Isaiah 35)
-No more hunger-He will raise up a plant of renown (Ezekiel 34:29)
-A new sharp threshing instrument -the mountains made small(Isaiah 41:14-16)
-If any thrist and seek water, the God of Israel will not forsake them. (ver 17-18)

Trees planted and growing-consider and understand that the [Eternal] hath
done this, and the Holy One of Israel hath created it” . (verse 19-20)

--All will speak the same language, a pure language from God (Zephaniah 3:9).
God will also destroy the idols, Ezekiel 30:13, Micah 5:10-15, Zechariah 13:2

Thy graven images also will I cut off, and thy standing images out of the midst
of thee; and thou shalt no more worship the work of thine hands.

The whole earth is at rest, and is quiet: they break forth into singing. (Isaiah 14:7)
"All the earth shall worship thee, and shall sing unto thee; they shall sing to thy name."

And He is not one to go back on His word (Isaiah 55:11)

Jan001 · Jun 15, 2024

Semper-Fi said:
I find the millennium reign is real and all over the bible.
Ezekiel discusses a prince [Christ] , in the future
when He will rule this Earth (Ezekiel 45:8).
People will never again be oppressed by their rulers.

"Thy Kingdom come" The Good news of the coming Kingdom of God to earth.
After human misrule causes great tribulation that almost wipes out civilization.

The living Christ is coming as “King of kings and Lord of lords” (Revelation 19:11-21),
to put down the rebellion of warring nations (Revelation 17:14), and establish God’s
world-ruling government over all nations (Daniel 2:44; 7:9, 13-14, 18, 22, 27; Isaiah 9:7).

He went away (to heaven) to be coronated, and to return to Earth (Luke 19:12-27).
He will then be on the Earth—Zechariah 14:3-4, 1 Thessalonians 4:16 (Nahum 1:5)

“We give thee thanks, O Lord God Almighty, which art, and wast, and art to come;
because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned” (Revelation 11:17)
“The mountains quake at him, and the hills [will] melt…” (Nahum 1:5), (Rev. 16:18)

x
The seventh angel sounds-Kingdoms of current world become Christs (Rev 11:15)
Will commit thy government into his hand, established with judgement and jutice.
(Isaiah 22:21) Of the increase of his government and peace there shall be no end,
upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom,...(Isaiah 9:7)

He shall return to Earth in clouds Acts 1:9-11(Matthew 24:30). Just as He is
returning (1Thes 4:14-17), the dead in Christ will rise in a resurrection,
made immortal—including all the prophets of old (Luke 13:28).

Beginning of future rule and world government “And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them,
and judgment was given unto them…and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years”
(Revelation 20:4).(Isaiah 11:2-4) And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he
shall separate them one from another,...Matthew 25:32

Jesus said: “And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will
I give power over the nations: And he shall rule them with a rod of iron…” (Rev 2:26-27).
And again, “To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne [on this Earth]”
(Revelation 3:21; Luke 1:32-33). And, “…we shall reign on the earth” (Revelation 5:10).

And I appoint unto you a kingdom, as my Father hath appointed unto me;(Luke 22:29)
Some resurrected saints will rule over 10 cities, some over five (Luke 19:12-19)
Saints shall take the kingdom, and possess the kingdom for ever, (Daniel 7:18)
We shall inherit the earth. (Psalms 25:13-22:26, 37:9, 22,29) not flesh and blood.

-A Kingdom appointed to the saints , made rulers over some cities.
the glorified saints of God made perfect, cities will be ruled by spirit beings.

It was round about eighteen thousand measures: and the name
of the city from that day shall be, The Lord is there. (Ezekiel 48:35)

17At that time they shall call Jerusalem the throne of the Lord; and
all the nations shall be gathered unto it, to the name of the Lord, to Jerusalem:
neither shall they walk any more after the imagination of their evil heart.

Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go
no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city
of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God:
and I will write upon him my new name.

And the Gentiles shall see thy righteousness, and all kings thy glory: and thou shalt
be called by a new name, which the mouth of the Lord shall name. (Isaiah 62:2)

-Jerusalem, the future headquarters city of the Earth (Haggai 2:6-8)
-Land Beneath Sea Reclaimed, converted to Jerusalem(Isaiah 60:5, 11:15).
World’s gold and silver reserves under the seas for beautiful decorations there.
-Gods latter house shall be greater than of the former (Haggai 2:9)
-Jerusalem is uniquely describes as being “compact together,” tall 122:3

-Desolate land shall be tilled - will be like the garden of Eden (Ezekiel 36:34-35)
-Build the waste cities-fresh produce-drink there own wine-farming (Amos 9:14)
-Waste cities “filled with flocks of men” being very social(Ezekiel 36:36-37-38)
-Superhighways between major cities (Isaiah 19:23)

-Cities being crime-free , dwell safely-none be made afraid (Ezekiel 34:28-Micah 4:4)
-No more Violence, nor wasting, nor destruction (Isaiah 60:18)
-Cities overflow with prosperity (Zechariah 1:17) -Equitable property distribution
- every man shall own his vine and fig tree (Micah 4:4-Lev25) and

-“Joy and gladness-thanksgiving-the voice of melody (Isaiah 51:3)(Jeremiah 33:10-11)
-Where old men and old women dwell -full of boys and girls playing (Zechariah 8:4-5)
-No lion shall be there, nor any ravenous beast shall go up (Isaiah 35:9 )
-There will be Shepherds and local animal husbandry (Jer. 33:12)

-Pure Water—Fertile Deserts where trees grow (Isaiah 35)
-No more hunger-He will raise up a plant of renown (Ezekiel 34:29)
-A new sharp threshing instrument -the mountains made small(Isaiah 41:14-16)
-If any thrist and seek water, the God of Israel will not forsake them. (ver 17-18)

Trees planted and growing-consider and understand that the [Eternal] hath
done this, and the Holy One of Israel hath created it” . (verse 19-20)

--All will speak the same language, a pure language from God (Zephaniah 3:9).
God will also destroy the idols, Ezekiel 30:13, Micah 5:10-15, Zechariah 13:2

Thy graven images also will I cut off, and thy standing images out of the midst
of thee; and thou shalt no more worship the work of thine hands.

The whole earth is at rest, and is quiet: they break forth into singing. (Isaiah 14:7)
"All the earth shall worship thee, and shall sing unto thee; they shall sing to thy name."

And He is not one to go back on His word (Isaiah 55:11)

Jesus appears on earth only two times. He does not come to earth to physically reign in Jerusalem for a literal one thousand years before his second appearance at the end of time.

The first time Jesus appeared on earth was in the first century AD when he became incarnated. He was then crucified and died in order to forgive our sins. He rose from the dead and ascended into heaven and was seated at the right hand of God. Jesus is king over all the kings of the earth right now.

Revelation 1:4-5
John,
To the seven churches in the province of Asia:
Grace and peace to you from him who is, and who was, and who is to come, and from the seven spirits before his throne, 5 and from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, the firstborn from the dead, and the ruler of the kings of the earth.

The second time will be when Jesus appears at the end of time on Judgment Day, the Day of the Lord.

Hebrews 9:28 so Christ was sacrificed once to take away the sins of many; and he will appear a second time, not to bear sin, but to bring salvation to those who are waiting for him.

Jesus is reigning in heaven right now, with his angels and his saints, over all the kings of the earth, and he will reign from heaven until the Day of the Lord, which is Judgment Day. This is the so-called millennial reign. It is the time period between Jesus' first appearance on earth and his future second appearance on earth.

On the Day of the Lord, Jesus will give every human an immortal body.

1 Corinthians 15:20-26 But Christ has indeed been raised from the dead, the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep. 21 For since death came through a man, the resurrection of the dead comes also through a man. 22 For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive. 23 But each in turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him. 24 Then the end will come, when he hands over the kingdom to God the Father after he has destroyed all dominion, authority and power. 25 For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet. 26 The last enemy to be destroyed is death.

1 Corinthians 15:51-53 Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed— 52 in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed. 53 For the perishable must clothe itself with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality.

1 Thessalonians 4:14-18 For we believe that Jesus died and rose again, and so we believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in him. 15 According to the Lord’s word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16 For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever. 18 Therefore encourage one another with these words.

Almost all of the Book of Revelation symbolically foretells God's destruction of the temple, of Jerusalem, and of the Jewish people because they rejected Jesus Christ as their Messiah. This occurred in the first century AD.

Postvieww · Jul 7, 2024

Jan001 said:
The early Christians believed that Nero, the Roman Emperor who was known for his cruelty and persecution of Christians, was the antichrist. The gematria of his name adds up to 666,

And many in more recent times have said presidents and others were the man of sin all claiming to have figured it out. The man of sin has not yet been revealed when he is you will know it. 2 Thessalonians 2

tailgator · Jul 9, 2024

tonychanyt said:
Matthew 24:

Christians will experience the great tribulation.

How long will the great tribulation last?

I don't know exactly, but it counts in days, not years.

Would you know if you were in the early stages of tribulation?

Only with hindsight:

One can even include possible redeemable people on other planets.

More detail of the 2nd coming is described in 1 Thessalonians 4:

John 6:

Revelation 1:

John 5:

2 Peter 3:

The following seems to be the chronological order of events:

The great tribulation

2nd coming of Christ on the clouds on the last day

The dead in Christ resurrected

Live believers caught up (rapture).

The wicked resurrected for judgment

Both believers and unbelievers witness Christ coming on the clouds

Believers comes down from the clouds to the earth with Jesus

End of physical days, space-time dimensions changed

New heavens and new earth established.

As for the millennium reign, I assume it is only symbolic and not literal.

In the 19th century, John Darby placed rapture before the great tribulation. He described a secret coming (rapture) to gather believers, followed by a visible return at the end of the tribulation period. In the 20th century, this doctrine was exploited by the Left Behind film series. I do not put much weight on this doctrine.

The great tribulation which is a nuclear war takes place after the tribulation (persecution of the saints in Israel).The tribulation lasts 3.5 years .
The great tribulation will.probsbly only lasts days as it will not take the United states armed forces more than days to annihilate everything in the middle east.The only people left in the promised.lamd will be them who are saved.

The tribulation starts in Daniel 11:33
Daniel 11:33
Wise leaders will give instruction to many, but these teachers will die by fire and sword, or they will be jailed and robbed.

The great tribulation begins in Daniel 12:1
Daniel 12:1
And at that time Michael the great prince shall stand up, that stands over the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of tribulation, such tribulation as has not been from the time that there was a nation on the earth until that time: at that time thy people shall be delivered, even every one that is written in the book.

It is at this time of great tribulation that Daniels people(everyone found written,)are delivered.

tonychanyt · Jul 9, 2024

tailgator said:
The great tribulation which is a nuclear war takes place after the tribulation (persecution of the saints in Israel).The tribulation lasts 3.5 years .
The great tribulation will.probsbly only lasts days as it will not take the United states armed forces more than days to annihilate everything in the middle east.The only people left in the promised.lamd will be them who are saved.

The tribulation starts in Daniel 11:33
Daniel 11:33
Wise leaders will give instruction to many, but these teachers will die by fire and sword, or they will be jailed and robbed.

The great tribulation begins in Daniel 12:1
Daniel 12:1
And at that time Michael the great prince shall stand up, that stands over the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of tribulation, such tribulation as has not been from the time that there was a nation on the earth until that time: at that time thy people shall be delivered, even every one that is written in the book.

It is at this time of great tribulation that Daniels people(everyone found written,)are delivered.

So when is the rapture?

tailgator · Jul 9, 2024

tonychanyt said:
So when is the rapture?

Jesus said he will come after the tribulation and send forth his angles to gather together his elect.That is the rapture.
The sound of the trumpet in Mathew 24:31 below is the last trump Paul spoke of.

Mathew 24

29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Jan001 · Jul 10, 2024

Postvieww said:
And many in more recent times have said presidents and others were the man of sin all claiming to have figured it out. The man of sin has not yet been revealed when he is you will know it. 2 Thessalonians 2

Perhaps they knew it back then.

Paul wrote that epistle for first century Christians.

2 Thessalonians 2:1-4 Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to him, we ask you, brothers and sisters, 2 not to become easily unsettled or alarmed by the teaching allegedly from us—whether by a prophecy or by word of mouth or by letter—asserting that the day of the Lord has already come. 3 Don’t let anyone deceive you in any way, for that day will not come until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the man doomed to destruction. 4 He will oppose and will exalt himself over everything that is called God or is worshiped, so that he sets himself up in God’s temple, proclaiming himself to be God.

The temple was destroyed in 70 AD. It was already made obsolete by Jesus' New Covenant in 33 AD.

We Christians are God's temples on earth. If the Jews build another temple on earth, it will definitely not be God's temple.

1 Corinthians 6:19 Do you not know that your bodies are temples of the Holy Spirit, who is in you, whom you have received from God? You are not your own;

1 Corinthians 3:16 Don’t you know that you yourselves are God’s temple and that God’s Spirit dwells in your midst?

Please note that Paul does not say that the gathering together of God's people with Jesus will be immediately after the rebellion occurs or immediately after the man of lawlessness proclaims himself to be God. Jesus states that no one knows or can know ahead of time when his second coming will occur. Mark 13:32

Time will tell.

Postvieww · Jul 10, 2024

Jan001 said:
Please note that Paul does not say that the gathering together of God's people with Jesus will be immediately after the rebellion occurs or immediately after the man of lawlessness proclaims himself to be God.

I didn't use the word "immediately".

Jan001 said:
Jesus states that no one knows or can know ahead of time when his second coming will occur. Mark 13:32

Only says no man knows the day or hour. To imply more than that is adding to scripture.

Jan001 · Jul 10, 2024

Postvieww said:
I didn't use the word "immediately".

I didn't say you did.

My point was that there can be thousands of years between the man of lawlessness's appearance on earth and Jesus' second appearance on earth at the end of time.

Jan001 · Jul 10, 2024

Postvieww said:
Only says no man knows the day or hour. To imply more than that is adding to scripture.

I am allowed to have my opinions about what the Scriptures mean, just as you are allowed to have yours. It is not adding to the Scriptures to do this. I looked at other Scriptures pertaining to the same subject and combined them in my answer.

Matthew 24:1-3 Jesus left the temple and was walking away when his disciples came up to him to call his attention to its buildings. 2 “Do you see all these things?” he asked. “Truly I tell you, not one stone here will be left on another; every one will be thrown down.” 3 As Jesus was sitting on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to him privately. “Tell us,” they said, “when will this happen, and what will be the sign of your coming and of the end of the age?”

I answered the third question that Jesus' disciples asked, “Tell us,” they said, “when will this happen, and what will be the sign of your coming and of the end of the age?”

The 1st question concerned the destruction of the temple. Jesus said it would happen in their generation. Matthew 24:34
The 2nd question concerned the coming of God's judgment upon Jerusalem and its temple. The sign was the Roman armies surrounding Jerusalem. Luke 21:20, Matthew 24:15
The 3rd question concerned the coming of Jesus at the end of time which is also the end of the church age on earth. Matthew 28:20, 1 Corinthians 15:52 The sign of his coming at the end of time will be the trumpet's sound.

The coming of Jesus at the end of time:

Matthew 24:36-44
“But about that day or hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father. 37 As it was in the days of Noah, so it will be at the coming of the Son of Man. 38 For in the days before the flood, people were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, up to the day Noah entered the ark; 39 and they knew nothing about what would happen until the flood came and took them all away. That is how it will be at the coming of the Son of Man. 40 Two men will be in the field; one will be taken and the other left. 41 Two women will be grinding with a hand mill; one will be taken and the other left.
42 “Therefore keep watch, because you do not know on what day your Lord will come. 43 But understand this: If the owner of the house had known at what time of night the thief was coming, he would have kept watch and would not have let his house be broken into. 44 So you also must be ready, because the Son of Man will come at an hour when you do not expect him.

We are in the last days now. We have been in the last days for 2000 years.

Hebrews 1:2 but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom also he made the universe.

1 Corinthians 15:22-25 For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive. 23 But each in turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him. 24 Then the end will come, when he hands over the kingdom to God the Father after he has destroyed all dominion, authority and power. 25 For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet.

Postvieww · Jul 11, 2024

Jan001 said:
I didn't say you did.

My point was that there can be thousands of years between the man of lawlessness's appearance on earth and Jesus' second appearance on earth at the end of time.

I don’t think so! 2 Thessalonians 2:8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:

Spiritual Jew · Jul 11, 2024

Douggg said:
There will be Christians who will experience the great tribulation. But only those Christians who miss the rapture, or become Christians after rapture.

Christians who miss the rapture? You can't be taken seriously when you say things like this.

Postvieww · Jul 11, 2024

Spiritual Jew said:
Christians who miss the rapture? You can't be taken seriously when you say things like this.

View attachment 351411

One has to take that position to explain away some passages of scripture.

Oseas · Jul 11, 2024

Douggg said:
There will be Christians who will experience the great tribulation. But only those Christians who miss the rapture, or become Christians after rapture.

Spiritual Jew said:
Christians who miss the rapture? You can't be taken seriously when you say things like this.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~.

Certainly. That's a ridiculous message that will never happen, it will never be fulfilled, it's a mockery. --> The Holy Spirit has nothing to do with such ridiculous message posted by Douggg. It's a derision.

The theory "the Rapture shall happen before the 7 year Tribulation period"" it is incorrect completely.

In fact, the Theory is wrong completely, and all will see this very soon, as soon as be elected the next and last Pope, and manifestation of the MAN Beast of the earth-Revelation 13:11- who has two horns like a lamb(a false lamb, a false messiah(John 5:43-47), and he speaks as dragon. The last week, week 70th Daniel 9:24-27 will LITERALLY be fulfiled with the manifestation of the MAN of sin, son of perdition, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders-2Thessalonians 2:3-12.

Many shall be PURIFIED, and made white, and TRIED;
but the wicked shall do wickedly:
none of the wicked shall understand;
the wise shall understand.

Let us be ready with the sharp Sword the Lord has given us-Hebrews 4:12-13
GET READY

Jan001 · Jul 12, 2024

Postvieww said:
I don’t think so! 2 Thessalonians 2:8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:

Apocalyptic language. This is not meant to be literal.

The NT was written specifically for 1st century Christians.

Jesus came in judgment in the late 60s through 70 AD.

The Great Tribulation happened within the generation of the apostles. All but one of them were martyred.

The following events occurred in the 1st century AD:

Matthew 24:14-22 And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in all the world as a witness to all the nations, and then the end will come. 15 “Therefore when you see the ‘abomination of desolation,’ spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place” (whoever reads, let him understand), 16 “then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. 17 Let him who is on the housetop not go down to take anything out of his house. 18 And let him who is in the field not go back to get his clothes. 19 But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days! 20 And pray that your flight may not be in winter or on the Sabbath. 21 For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the world until this time, no, nor ever shall be. 22 And unless those days were shortened, no flesh would be saved; but for the elect’s sake those days will be shortened.

Romans 1:8 First, I thank my God through Jesus Christ for you all, that your faith is spoken of throughout the whole world.

Acts 2:5 And there were dwelling in Jerusalem Jews, devout men, from every nation under heaven.

The end of the temple came in 70 AD.

Oseas · Jul 12, 2024

Jan001 said:
Jesus came in Judgment in the late 60s through 70 AD.

Is it true? No, it's not. What matters and prevails is the Word of my Lord JESUS: John 12:47-49
47... I came not to Judge the world, but to save the world.
48 He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my Words, hath One that Judgeth him: the Word that I have spoken, the same shall Judge him IN THE LAST DAY. (that is the seventh and last Day-the Lord's Day, or seventh and last millennium. This Day/Millennium just arrived.
49 For I have not spoken of myself; but the Father which sent me, he gave me a commandment, what I should say, and what I should speak.

Therefore, you should say the same as JESUS said, no?

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