Who Decides - God or Us?

CoreyD · May 19, 2024

For the past 10 years, I have been meeting persons who have the view that you do not have to take things in the Bible literally. They have the view that you get to decide if it's literal or not, and in most cases, people take almost everything in the Bible symbolic, from Genesis through to Revelation.

Is this righteous, or godly, and is it acceptable to God? Who decides if an account is literal of symbolic? God's word, or us?
2 Timothy 3:16, 17

All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, so that the servant of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work.

According to scripture, it is God who decides, and any of us who thinks differently, is not allowing ourselves to be corrected, and trained in righteousness, to be thoroughly equipped for every good work.
It's as bad as it sounds, so we want to take it seriously.

Let's consider, a few examples where persons have decided that a literal account does not need to be taken literally, but can be viewed as figurative, of a symbolic representation.
Let's start with Jonah, since I just came from a thread, where some take this view.

Is the account of Jonah a literal account, or symbolic?
Matthew 12:38-42; Luke 11:29-32

Jesus - the son of God said:
The men of Nineveh will stand up at the judgment with this generation and condemn it, for they repented at the preaching of Jonah; and now something greater than Jonah is here.

The word of God tells us the account of Jonah is literal - it actually is a real event that occured in history, which God had recorded, and which his servants benefited from, and used. These were real people with a real story.
If we go against that, we are not allowing ourselves to be corrected, and trained in righteousness, to be thoroughly equipped for every good work.

Are Adam and Eve allegorical characters, or real people?
Genesis 1:27; Mark 10:6-8; Acts 17:24-26; Romans 5:14; 1 Corinthians 15:22; 1 Corinthians 15:44-49; 1 Timothy 2:13, 14; Jude 14, 15Genesis 1:27; Mark 10:6-8; Acts 17:24-26; Romans 5:14; 1 Corinthians 15:22; 1 Corinthians 15:44-49; 1 Timothy 2:13, 14; Jude 14, 15

Without question, the word of God tells us that Adam and Eve were real people, and the account is not allegorical.
The events really took place in history, which God had recorded for the benefit of his servants.
If we go against that, we are not allowing ourselves to be corrected, and trained in righteousness, to be thoroughly equipped for every good work.

Jesus said to the Pharisees abd Scribes,

“Well did Isaiah prophesy of you hypocrites, as it is written:

‘This people honors Me with their lips, But their heart is far from Me. And in vain they worship Me, Teaching as doctrines the commandments of men.’

For laying aside the commandment of God, you hold the tradition of men..."

Mark 7:6-8

We don't want to make the word of God invalid. This is a grave sin, and separates us from God, according to Jesus.
However, this is what happens when we insist on our own interpretation - thinking that we have the right to interpret the Bible. This is the result of the deviation from first century Christianity, to everyone having a monopoly on God's word, resulting in thousands of splinter sects having their own interpretation of God's word.

The word of God has been made invalid, by those who insist that the two accounts above are symbolic and not literal.
It's important to look at some more, for our benefit, so I'll do that in a moment.

CoreyD · May 19, 2024

Was Noah and the flood a literal historical account, or an allegorical story?
Genesis 5:28-32; Genesis 11:10; 1 Chronicles 1:1-5; Isaiah 54:8, 9; Ezekiel 14:14; Ezekiel 14:19, 20; Matthew 24:36-39; Luke 3:23-38; Luke 17:26-30; Hebrews 11:7; 1 Peter 3:18-20; 2 Peter 2:5

God himself; Jesus Christ the son of God; three Prophets of God; four disciples of Christ, all refered to the person and genealogy of Noah, and the flood account as historically real - not allegorical.

The apostle Peter said:
For if God did not spare the angels having sinned, but having cast them down to Tartarus, in chains of gloomy darkness, delivered them, being kept for judgment;
and He did not spare the ancient world, but preserved Noah, a herald of righteousness, one of eight, having brought the flood upon the world of the ungodly

2 Peter 2:4, 5

God said:
In a surge of anger I hid My face from you for a moment, but with everlasting kindness I will have compassion on you,” says the LORD your Redeemer. “For to Me this is like the days of Noah, when I swore that the waters of Noah would never again cover the earth. So I have sworn that I will not be angry with you or rebuke you.“

Isaiah 54:8, 9

If any of us insist that Noah and the flood are allegorical, we are contradicting God and his word - making the word of God invalid by our own doctrine.
Is contradicting God a righteous thing to do?
Romans 3:4

...let God be true, and every man a liar, as it has been written: "That You may be justified in Your words, and will prevail in Your being judged."

timothyu · May 19, 2024

The bottom line is who's will are we to put first... God's or our own?

CoreyD · May 27, 2024

Is the book of Job allegorical, or an actual event recorded as history?
Ezekiel 14:14
Even if these three men, Noah, Daniel, and Job, were in it, they would deliver only themselves by their righteousness,” says the Lord GOD.

Ezekiel 14:20
then as surely as I live, declares the Lord GOD, even if Noah, Daniel, and Job were in it, they could not deliver their own sons or daughters. Their righteousness could deliver only themselves.

God, lists Job, among righteous Noah, and Daniel.
God himself declared Job as a blameless and upright man, one who fears God and shuns evil. Job 1:8

James 5:11
Behold, we count blessed those having persevered. You have heard of the perseverance of Job, and you have seen the outcome from the Lord, that the Lord is full of compassion and is merciful.

The faithful disciple James, wrote to the congregation of the example of Job, which highlights the compassion and mercy of God.

Neither God, not his servants consider Job fictional.
If we do, we need to adjust our thinking, to be in line wih God's.

What about taking symbolism, or allegorical passages as literal? Some do this. So, it's important to look at these also.
Are the rich man and Lazarus the beggar real characters or allegorical?

Luke 15:1-32
1 Then all the tax collectors and the sinners drew near to Him to hear Him. 2 And the Pharisees and scribes complained, saying, “This Man receives sinners and eats with them.” 3 So He spoke this parable to them, saying:

4 “What man of you, having a hundred sheep, if he loses one of them, does not leave the ninety-nine in the wilderness, and go after the one which is lost until he finds it? 5 And when he has found it, he lays it on his shoulders, rejoicing. 6 And when he comes home, he calls together his friends and neighbors, saying to them, ‘Rejoice with me, for I have found my sheep which was lost!’ 7 I say to you that likewise there will be more joy in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine just persons who need no repentance.

8 “Or what woman, having ten silver coins, if she loses one coin, does not light a lamp, sweep the house, and search carefully until she finds it? 9 And when she has found it, she calls her friends and neighbors together, saying, ‘Rejoice with me, for I have found the piece which I lost!’ 10 Likewise, I say to you, there is joy in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.”

11 Then He said: “A certain man had two sons. 12 And the younger of them said to his father, ‘Father, give me the portion of goods that falls to me.’ So he divided to them his livelihood. 13 And not many days after, the younger son gathered all together, journeyed to a far country, and there wasted his possessions with prodigal living. 14 But when he had spent all, there arose a severe famine in that land, and he began to...

31 “And he said to him, ‘Son, you are always with me, and all that I have is yours. 32 It was right that we should make merry and be glad, for your brother was dead and is alive again, and was lost and is found.’ ”
30 But as soon as this son of yours came, who has devoured your livelihood with harlots, you killed the fatted calf for him.’

31 “And he said to him, ‘Son, you are always with me, and all that I have is yours. 32 It was right that we should make merry and be glad, for your brother was dead and is alive again, and was lost and is found.’ ”

Luke 16:1-31
1 He also said to His disciples: “There was a certain rich man who had a steward, and an accusation was brought to him that this man was wasting his goods. 2 So he called him and said to him, ‘What is this I hear about you? Give an account of your stewardship, for you can no longer be steward.’

19 “There was a certain rich man who was clothed in purple and fine linen and fared sumptuously every day. 20 But there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, full of sores, who was laid at his gate, 21 desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man’s table. Moreover the dogs came and licked his sores. 22 So it was that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels to Abraham’s bosom. The rich man also died and was buried. 23 And being in torments in Hades, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.

Jesus does not break from his parables, to say, "Well now, let me tell you a true story..."
Therefore, there is no valid reason for persons to claim that the rich man and Lazarus, is a literal account.
There is actually no reason to argue about this.
Persons simply want this to be a literal account in order to support their unscriptural beliefs.
There is no way for such persons to prove that Jesus switched from parables to a historical event. That's their imagination.

So, we can move on to something else.

Diamond72 · May 29, 2024

CoreyD said:
They have the view that you get to decide if it's literal or not, and in most cases, people take almost everything in the Bible symbolic, from Genesis through to Revelation.

Maybe people who have never been to sunday school. All they teach the children is the literal Bible. They do not learn the symbolic meaning until they grow up and start to attend the services in the sanctuary.

BBAS 64 · May 31, 2024

Good day, CoreyD

You may find this series helpful, Knowing Scripture with RC Sproul

Knowing Scripture - R.C. Sproul

Knowing Scripture shows us that it is the privilege and duty of every believer to diligently study God's Word. It reminds us that along with this privilege c...

www.youtube.com

IN Him

Bill

CoreyD · Jun 1, 2024

BBAS 64 said:
Good day, CoreyD

You may find this series helpful, Knowing Scripture with RC Sproul

Knowing Scripture - R.C. Sproul

Knowing Scripture shows us that it is the privilege and duty of every believer to diligently study God's Word. It reminds us that along with this privilege c...

www.youtube.com

IN Him

Bill

Thanks. Can you explain why I would, please.

CoreyD · Jun 16, 2024

Are the twelve thrones and twelve tribes at Matthew 19:28 literal, or symbolic?

Matthew 19:28

And Jesus said to them, "Truly I say to you that in the regeneration, when the Son of Man shall sit down upon His throne of glory, you having followed Me, you also will sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

Luke 22:28-30

28 You are those who have stood by me in my trials. 29 And I confer on you a kingdom, just as my Father conferred one on me, 30 so that you may eat and drink at my table in my kingdom and sit on thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

1 Corinthians 6::2

Do you not know that the saints will judge the world? And if you are to judge the world, are you not competent to judge trivial cases?

Revelation 20:4

I saw thrones on which were seated those who had been given authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony about Jesus and because of the word of God. They had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

Revelation 20:6

Blessed and holy are those who share in the first resurrection! The second death has no power over them, but they will be priests of God and of Christ, and will reign with Him for a thousand years.

Revelation 3:21

To the one who overcomes, I will grant the right to sit with Me on My throne, just as I overcame and sat down with My Father on His throne.

Daniel 7:27

Then the kingship and dominion and majesty of all the kingdoms under the heavens shall be given to the people of the holy ones of the Most High, Whose kingship shall be an everlasting kingship, whom all dominions shall serve and obey.”

Revelation 5:10

“And you have made them a Kingdom, Priests and Kings to our God, and they shall reign over The Earth.”

What we know from the scriptures :

The Saints (Holy ones) will rule in the kingdom with Christ. Daniel 7:13, 13, 27
They are to "sit on thrones" Luke 22:30; "sit on twelve thrones" Matthew 19:28; "sit on Jesus' throne" Revelation 3:21.
The holy ones are not just twelve (12). Revelation 18:20; Colossians 1:1-4; Philippians 4:22; Ephesians 2:19

So, since the holy ones (Saints) are more than twelve (12), and they sit on Jesus' throne, the reference to the number 12 in relation to the thrones, is not literal, but symbolic, as is the case in Revelation 21:10-14.

They also are the same kings and priests that are given authority to judge, and rule with Christ for the 1,000 years. Revelation 20:4, 6; 1 Corinthians 6:2
These are the conquerors who stick with Jesus in his trials. Luke 22:28-30
Revelation 14:4

They follow the Lamb wherever He goes. They have been redeemed from among men as firstfruits to God and to the Lamb.

These number 144,000 Revelation 14:1

Is the number 144,000 literal, or symbolic?

Revelation 7:2-9

2 And I saw another angel ascending from the east, with the seal of the living God. And he called out in a loud voice to the four angels who had been given power to harm the land and the sea:

3 “Do not harm the land or sea or trees until we have sealed the foreheads of the servants of our God.”

4 And I heard the number of those who were sealed, 144,000 from all the tribes of Israel:

9 After these things I looked, and behold, a great multitude, which no one was able to number it, out of every nation, and tribes, and peoples, and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, having been clothed with white robes, and palm branches in their hands.

13 Then one of the elders addressed me: “These in white robes,” he asked, “who are they, and where have they come from?”

14 And I said to him, "My lord, you know." And he said to me, "These are the ones coming out of the great tribulation, and they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

15 Because of this, 'They are before the throne of God, and serve Him day and night in His temple; and the One sitting on the throne will tabernacle over them.

17 because the Lamb in the center of the throne will shepherd them, and He will lead them to fountains living of waters, and God will wipe away every tear from their eyes.'"

The Saints numbering 144,000 are contrasted with a multitude that cannot be counted.
It's reasonable then to conclude that the number is literal, since it is contrasted with a literal multitude, which no one was able to count.
They are also described as a little flock, Luke 12:32

The 144,000 are taken out of the twelve tribes of Israel. Revelation 7:4 They have been redeemed from among men as firstfruits to God and to the Lamb. Revelation 14:4
A multitude from every nation, tribe, peoples, and tongues, is then seen before the throne serving God, and they are shepherded by the lamb to waters of life, and God wipes out every tear from their eyes.
This corresponds to Revelation 21:1-4 Please see this post.

Thus, the 1,000 year rule of Christ, which includes a judgment, and involves shepherding people to eternal life, is the same as Matthew 19:28 -
Jesus said to them, “Truly, I say to you, in the new world English Standard Version / in the renewal of all things Berean Standard Bible / in the regeneration Berean Literal Bible, when the Son of Man will sit on his glorious throne, you who have followed me will also sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.
See The 1,000 Year Judgment & Beyond.

The 12 tribes of Israel, mentioned in Matthew 19::28; Luke 22:30; Revelation 7:5-8, is not a literal number, but is the same as the great multitude that no one could number.
These are the people who will be ruled nd judged during Christ's 1,000 year rule, when the Saints are judging with him.

BelieveItOarKnot · Jun 20, 2024

CoreyD said:
Adam and Eve were real people, and the account is not allegorical.

There is no need to understanding any account only 1 way. Paul shows us clearly in Gal 4:21-24 that the lives of Abraham, Sarah, Isaac, Hagar, Ishmael and the Law was what? Allegory.

Were they also literal people within literal events? Of course. But their lives were steeped in allegory.

God Himself spoke to and through the prophets using "similitudes." Hos 12:10

Heavenly matters are largely matters of the thoughts and intents of the heart, and of our perceptions, internally.

Jesus constantly taught in parables, only providing the inside story to His disciples.

There is undoubtedly allegory/parable in Genesis on many many counts. For example, there was no tree that by itself could convey eternal life. To believe so would make multiple God's able to grant eternal life. That tree must allegorically connect to God.

I could go on at length, but even with Adam and Eve, there is every reason to believe Mark 4:15 happened to them both, just as Jesus said happens. They were real people, caught up in the reality of parable.

Yes, parables and allegory are LITERAL. These are not fairytales. They concern matters perceived, but unseen

IF any reader perceived that a single scripture, Mark 4:15 was and is a literal real happening, for not only themselves, but every person who was in the Bible and who ever lived other than God Himself, such will never see literal surface life the same way again.

Ever

BelieveItOarKnot · Jun 20, 2024

CoreyD said:
Jesus does not break from his parables, to say, "Well now, let me tell you a true story..."
Therefore, there is no valid reason for persons to claim that the rich man and Lazarus, is a literal account.
There is actually no reason to argue about this.

It is both allegorical and literal. You're just pushing against the obvious and trying to force it one way or the other when it's both.

Abraham was deployed in the account. Was Abraham literal? Of course.

Was the devil involved in that account? Yes, it has to be so because Jesus explained in Mark 4:13 that in order to understand "all parables" we have to understand the parable of Mark 4:15 in which there is an invisible player, the DEVIL. That's a big part of the reason we have the information conveyed in parables and allegories, because these accounts deal with unseen actors, the devil and his messengers. Where did Jesus show us these bad actors reside?

Why, in people! It's the most obvious matter in the entirety of the Gospels. Yet these bad actors are all unseen.

Anywhere in the Bible we read a "like" or an "as" it's automatically into allegory/parable zone.

BelieveItOarKnot · Jun 20, 2024

CoreyD said:
Was Noah and the flood a literal historical account, or an allegorical story?

If any of us insist that Noah and the flood are allegorical, we are contradicting God and his word - making the word of God invalid by our own doctrine.
Is contradicting God a righteous thing to do?
Romans 3:4

You are simply mistaking a very elemental principle laid out by Paul about how God works.

God's Methodology is called by Paul, first the natural, then the spiritual. The principle is laid out in great detail 1 Cor 15

In Noah's account, yes, literal for sure. But within that account is what is called a foreshadow of another Spiritual Event. That foreshadow event (yet to come) is even listed, isolated by a prophet in a beautiful way in the O.T.

Jesus even referred to that event with an "as in the days of Noah." Was there an "AS" in the Noah account? Oh yes indeedy there is. And it's a whopper. Even Jesus depicted the Noah event as a foreshadow, yet to come

But Jesus has firm and fixed rules to understanding parables. If any person is not a disciple, they will never get the inside story. Even if it's laid out before their literal eyes, in literal black print on white paper. They will not see, hear, perceive or believe it and in fact denial and unbelief of Jesus' Own Words will be written across their lips, almost immediately

CoreyD · Jun 20, 2024

BelieveItOarKnot said:
There is no need to understanding any account only 1 way.

You mean, we can understand it anyway we please?

BelieveItOarKnot said:
Paul shows us clearly in Gal 4:21-24 that the lives of Abraham, Sarah, Isaac, Hagar, Ishmael and the Law was what? Allegory.

The scriptures say, "These things are being taken figuratively". Galatians 4:24
What things?
For it is written that Abraham had two sons, one by the slave woman and the other by the free woman. His son by the slave woman was born according to the flesh, but his son by the free woman was born as the result of a divine promise. Galatians 4:22, 23

That's it.

BelieveItOarKnot said:
Were they also literal people within literal events? Of course. But their lives were steeped in allegory.

I did not read their lives were steeped in allegory. Just the part of their life where divine intervention was made, that related to God's will and his promise.

BelieveItOarKnot said:
God Himself spoke to and through the prophets using "similitudes." Hos 12:10

Yes.

BelieveItOarKnot said:
Heavenly matters are largely matters of the thoughts and intents of the heart, and of our perceptions, internally.

Pardon me.
Now, I know this is something that comes from your head, and I don't have a clue what it means, so I think you will have to explain that, if you want me to understand what you said.

BelieveItOarKnot said:
Jesus constantly taught in parables, only providing the inside story to His disciples.

True. Mark 4:34

BelieveItOarKnot said:
There is undoubtedly allegory/parable in Genesis on many many counts. For example, there was no tree that by itself could convey eternal life. To believe so would make multiple God's able to grant eternal life. That tree must allegorically connect to God.

It's good to see you made that observation.

BelieveItOarKnot said:
I could go on at length, but even with Adam and Eve, there is every reason to believe Mark 4:15 happened to them both, just as Jesus said happens. They were real people, caught up in the reality of parable.

I guess there is every reason to believe that Mark 4:15 happened to Cain, Korah, Judas, Hymenaeus, and Philetus...
No.
Take a look at what Jesus said...
Mark 4:10-17
10 But when He was alone, those around Him with the twelve asked Him about the parable. 11 And He said to them, “To you it has been given to know the mystery of the kingdom of God; but to those who are outside, all things come in parables, 12 so that

‘Seeing they may see and not perceive,
And hearing they may hear and not understand;
Lest they should turn,
And their sins be forgiven them.’ ”

13 And He said to them, “Do you not understand this parable? How then will you understand all the parables? 14 The sower sows the word. 15 And these are the ones by the wayside where the word is sown. When they hear, Satan comes immediately and takes away the word that was sown in their hearts. 16 These likewise are the ones sown on stony ground who, when they hear the word, immediately receive it with gladness; 17 and they have no root in themselves, and so endure only for a time. Afterward, when tribulation or persecution arises for the word’s sake, immediately they stumble.

See, we don't decide. God does.
Jesus explained. It refers to those who receive the word with joy, but cave in under the pressure of tribulation and persecution, and allow Satan to snatch it away from them.
This does not apply to Adam and Eve.

If however, we want to make the decision, God allows us free rein... to hang ourselves.
There are a lot of Biblical experts gone out there into the world. Jesus and John refers to them as false prophets. Matthew 24:11; 1 John 4:1

So, you go ahead and make your decision. As for me. I'd rather let God decide, than hang myself.

BelieveItOarKnot said:
Yes, parables and allegory are LITERAL. These are not fairytales. They concern matters perceived, but unseen

Can you tell me which dictionary you are using.
I can't find any that agrees with your statement.
Allegory

noun

The representation of abstract ideas or principles by characters, figures, or events in narrative, dramatic, or pictorial form.
A story, picture, or play employing such representation. John Bunyan's Pilgrim's Progress and Herman Melville's Moby-Dick are allegories.
A symbolic representation.
"The blindfolded figure with scales is an allegory of justice."
A figurative sentence or discourse, in which the principal subject is described by another subject resembling it in its properties and circumstances. The real subject is thus kept out of view, and we are left to collect the intentions of the writer or speaker by the resemblance of the secondary to the primary subject.
Anything which represents by suggestive resemblance; an emblem.
Similar: emblem
A figure representation which has a meaning beyond notion directly conveyed by the object painted or sculptured.
The representation of abstract principles by characters or figures.
A picture, book, or other form of communication using such representation.

Literal
Adjective
Opposite
fictional ; fictitious ; figurative ; metaphorical ; nondocumentary ; nonfactual ; nonhistorical ; unhistorical ; approximate ; ...imaginative ; inaccurate ; ...imaginary ; mythical ; fanciful ; imagined ; invented ; ...symbolic ...allegorical ...made up ; product of someone's imagination ...

BelieveItOarKnot said:
IF any reader perceived that a single scripture, Mark 4:15 was and is a literal real happening, for not only themselves, but every person who was in the Bible and who ever lived other than God Himself, such will never see literal surface life the same way again.

Ever

Sorry?

CoreyD · Jun 20, 2024

BelieveItOarKnot said:
It is both allegorical and literal. You're just pushing against the obvious and trying to force it one way or the other when it's both.

Abraham was deployed in the account. Was Abraham literal? Of course.

Was the devil involved in that account? Yes, it has to be so because Jesus explained in Mark 4:13 that in order to understand "all parables" we have to understand the parable of Mark 4:15 in which there is an invisible player, the DEVIL. That's a big part of the reason we have the information conveyed in parables and allegories, because these accounts deal with unseen actors, the devil and his messengers. Where did Jesus show us these bad actors reside?

Why, in people! It's the most obvious matter in the entirety of the Gospels. Yet these bad actors are all unseen.

Anywhere in the Bible we read a "like" or an "as" it's automatically into allegory/parable zone.

BelieveItOarKnot said:
You are simply mistaking a very elemental principle laid out by Paul about how God works.

God's Methodology is called by Paul, first the natural, then the spiritual. The principle is laid out in great detail 1 Cor 15

In Noah's account, yes, literal for sure. But within that account is what is called a foreshadow of another Spiritual Event. That foreshadow event (yet to come) is even listed, isolated by a prophet in a beautiful way in the O.T.

Jesus even referred to that event with an "as in the days of Noah." Was there an "AS" in the Noah account? Oh yes indeedy there is. And it's a whopper. Even Jesus depicted the Noah event as a foreshadow, yet to come

But Jesus has firm and fixed rules to understanding parables. If any person is not a disciple, they will never get the inside story. Even if it's laid out before their literal eyes, in literal black print on white paper. They will not see, hear, perceive or believe it and in fact denial and unbelief of Jesus' Own Words will be written across their lips, almost immediately

You decide.

BelieveItOarKnot · Jun 20, 2024

CoreyD said:
You mean, we can understand it anyway we please?

The scriptures say, "These things are being taken figuratively". Galatians 4:24
What things?
For it is written that Abraham had two sons, one by the slave woman and the other by the free woman. His son by the slave woman was born according to the flesh, but his son by the free woman was born as the result of a divine promise. Galatians 4:22, 23

That's it.

I did not read their lives were steeped in allegory. Just the part of their life where divine intervention was made, that related to God's will and his promise.

Yes.

Pardon me.
Now, I know this is something that comes from your head, and I don't have a clue what it means, so I think you will have to explain that, if you want me to understand what you said.

True. Mark 4:34

It's good to see you made that observation.

I guess there is every reason to believe that Mark 4:15 happened to Cain, Korah, Judas, Hymenaeus, and Philetus...
No.
Take a look at what Jesus said...
Mark 4:10-17
10 But when He was alone, those around Him with the twelve asked Him about the parable. 11 And He said to them, “To you it has been given to know the mystery of the kingdom of God; but to those who are outside, all things come in parables, 12 so that

‘Seeing they may see and not perceive,
And hearing they may hear and not understand;
Lest they should turn,
And their sins be forgiven them.’ ”

13 And He said to them, “Do you not understand this parable? How then will you understand all the parables? 14 The sower sows the word. 15 And these are the ones by the wayside where the word is sown. When they hear, Satan comes immediately and takes away the word that was sown in their hearts. 16 These likewise are the ones sown on stony ground who, when they hear the word, immediately receive it with gladness; 17 and they have no root in themselves, and so endure only for a time. Afterward, when tribulation or persecution arises for the word’s sake, immediately they stumble.

See, we don't decide. God does.
Jesus explained. It refers to those who receive the word with joy, but cave in under the pressure of tribulation and persecution, and allow Satan to snatch it away from them.
This does not apply to Adam and Eve.

If however, we want to make the decision, God allows us free rein... to hang ourselves.
There are a lot of Biblical experts gone out there into the world. Jesus and John refers to them as false prophets. Matthew 24:11; 1 John 4:1

So, you go ahead and make your decision. As for me. I'd rather let God decide, than hang myself.

Can you tell me which dictionary you are using.
I can't find any that agrees with your statement.
Allegory

noun

The representation of abstract ideas or principles by characters, figures, or events in narrative, dramatic, or pictorial form.

A story, picture, or play employing such representation. John Bunyan's Pilgrim's Progress and Herman Melville's Moby-Dick are allegories.

A symbolic representation.
"The blindfolded figure with scales is an allegory of justice."

A figurative sentence or discourse, in which the principal subject is described by another subject resembling it in its properties and circumstances. The real subject is thus kept out of view, and we are left to collect the intentions of the writer or speaker by the resemblance of the secondary to the primary subject.

Anything which represents by suggestive resemblance; an emblem.
Similar: emblem

A figure representation which has a meaning beyond notion directly conveyed by the object painted or sculptured.

The representation of abstract principles by characters or figures.

A picture, book, or other form of communication using such representation.

Literal
Adjective
Opposite
fictional ; fictitious ; figurative ; metaphorical ; nondocumentary ; nonfactual ; nonhistorical ; unhistorical ; approximate ; ...imaginative ; inaccurate ; ...imaginary ; mythical ; fanciful ; imagined ; invented ; ...symbolic ...allegorical ...made up ; product of someone's imagination ...

Sorry?

Satan is deployed in a parable: Mark 4:15

Is Satan real or not? Simple question. Yes or no?

Abraham, Sarah, Isaac, Hagar, Ishmael and the law are stated by Paul to be an allegory. Were these people and the law real/literal or not? Another yes or no

You wouldn't be the first believer to not understand the fact that "Bible" allegories and parables are real and contain real characters, such as Abraham in Luke 16's parable of the rich man and Lazarus or the other citings herein

CoreyD · Jun 20, 2024

BelieveItOarKnot said:
Satan is deployed in a parable: Mark 4:15

Is Satan real or not? Simple question. Yes or no?

Abraham, Sarah, Isaac, Hagar, Ishmael and the law are stated by Paul to be an allegory. Were these people and the law real/literal or not? Another yes or no

You wouldn't be the first believer to not understand the fact that "Bible" allegories and parables are real and contain real characters, such as Abraham in Luke 16's parable of the rich man and Lazarus or the other citings herein

OarKnot... Can I call you that?
I believe you have a zeal for God.

I have to go right now, but I will leave you with a question, but first there is one thing we have to get straight, before we can have further discussion.
We need to get our terms right. You did not respond to my query.

Can you tell me which dictionary you are using.
I can't find any that agrees with your statement.
Allegory

noun

The representation of abstract ideas or principles by characters, figures, or events in narrative, dramatic, or pictorial form.
A story, picture, or play employing such representation. John Bunyan's Pilgrim's Progress and Herman Melville's Moby-Dick are allegories.
A symbolic representation.
"The blindfolded figure with scales is an allegory of justice."
A figurative sentence or discourse, in which the principal subject is described by another subject resembling it in its properties and circumstances. The real subject is thus kept out of view, and we are left to collect the intentions of the writer or speaker by the resemblance of the secondary to the primary subject.
Anything which represents by suggestive resemblance; an emblem.
Similar: emblem
A figure representation which has a meaning beyond notion directly conveyed by the object painted or sculptured.
The representation of abstract principles by characters or figures.
A picture, book, or other form of communication using such representation.

Literal
Adjective
Opposite
fictional ; fictitious ; figurative ; metaphorical ; nondocumentary ; nonfactual ; nonhistorical ; unhistorical ; approximate ; ...imaginative ; inaccurate ; ...imaginary ; mythical ; fanciful ; imagined ; invented ; ...symbolic ...allegorical ...made up ; product of someone's imagination ...

Do you agree with this - literal is opposite to allegory, and an allegory is a story that is not real?

Let's get that clear first.
i hope to hear you and talk to you later.
Good night.

BelieveItOarKnot · Jun 20, 2024

CoreyD said:
You did not respond to my query.

You want to play literal only or allegory only (or in the later case only parable, similitude, figures, types)

Just pointing out it's a dead end query

CoreyD · Jun 25, 2024

BelieveItOarKnot said:
You want to play literal only or allegory only (or in the later case only parable, similitude, figures, types)

Just pointing out it's a dead end query

Not answering simple questions, is a dead end to meaningful conversation, and discussion.
That's why the Pharisees refused to answer Jesus. They felt, since they did not give an answer, they somehow escape notice, that they did not want to admit the truth, as it exposed their error.
However, the audience were not as unintelligent as the Pharisees thought.

Going with the correct definition, an allegory is not a literal account, but a story, or representation of, or figurative description of a subject.
Now that we have that clear...

Because God - the one above heaven and earth - the supreme, used earthly things as a figurative representation of heavenly (things of the spirit), for example, Galatians 4:21-24, and Hebrews 8:3-5 that does not mean we have liberty to use this method, whenever, or wherever, it pleases us to do so.

At Mark 4:1-9 we read this:

1 Again Jesus began to teach by the lake. The crowd that gathered around him was so large that he got into a boat and sat in it out on the lake, while all the people were along the shore at the water’s edge. 2 He taught them many things by parables, and in his teaching said: 3 “Listen! A farmer went out to sow his seed. 4 As he was scattering the seed, some fell along the path, and the birds came and ate it up. 5 Some fell on rocky places, where it did not have much soil. It sprang up quickly, because the soil was shallow. 6 But when the sun came up, the plants were scorched, and they withered because they had no root. 7 Other seed fell among thorns, which grew up and choked the plants, so that they did not bear grain. 8 Still other seed fell on good soil. It came up, grew and produced a crop, some multiplying thirty, some sixty, some a hundred times.”

9 Then Jesus said, “Whoever has ears to hear, let them hear.”

The illustration has many representations of subjects.

The farmer, is figurative, and represents something, or someone. Who? The sower (Mark 4:14) That could be Jesus, and any of his disciples.
The seed, is figurative, and represents something. What? The word. (Mark 4:14)
Those along the path, in rocky places, among thorns, and in good soil are figurative, and represents something. What? People who hear the word. (Mark 4:15-20)
The birds, are figurative, and represents something. What? Satan the Devil, who comes and takes away the word that was sown in those people along the path.
The sun comes up and scorches the plants that sprung up in rocky places.

The sun's scorching heat, is figurative, and represents trouble or persecution that comes because of the word.
The plants that sprung up, but have no root, is figurative, and represents those who don't last very long. Their joy is short-lived, because they gave up.

The thorns figuratively represents worries of this life, the deceitfulness of wealth and the desires for other things. These choke out the word. In other words, the people allowed these thing to put the word in secondary place, rather than seek God's kingdom first.
Finally, the good soil - people whose heart retain the word, produce a crop - some thirty, some sixty, some a hundred times what was sown. More seed.

Now that we have looked at it together, and we are not reading with our own ideas embedded in the text, do you see that Jesus did not use Satan as an allegory, as Satan is not in the parable. Rather, Satan is represented as the birds in the parable. Jesus used the birds in the parable, just as he used the sun in the parable, and seeds, and so on.
These represent the subjects Jesus had in mind - the word, preachers, and the people preached to; and the things that will prove to be a challenge for growth - Satan, persecution, and trials, materialism, anxieties of life, lack of faith, and so on.

However, even if Satan was used in Jesus' illustration, it is still a story, used to illustrate something, and so, Satan would be used to represent a subject other than Satan. The listener has to use discernment in order to find out who, or what Satan represents. Satan would not represent Satan, just as Hagar, and Sarah, represented Something.
The difference between the illustrations or parables Jesus used, and that particular one God used, is that God chose to use an actual event, to illustrate a spiritual situation.

God also employs the use of illustrations that are not real, but the representations are real. Like the cooking pot Ezekiel 24:1-6, and many hundreds of other illustrations God used.
Each representation in each illustration, was used to signify something.
This is how illustrations work.

I hope that clears things up a bit.

BelieveItOarKnot · Jun 26, 2024

an allegory is not a literal account, but a story,

You spent a lot of time telling me I wasn't answering your questions when the fact is you took a hard left turn avoiding scriptural statements that directly refute your obvious errant conclusion quoted above.

Your are welcome to pick up the obvious counter scriptures to your conclusion anytime, or, as you claimed, avoid them entirely

And I just provided a warm up drill. There's a mountain of scriptural evidence showing allegories, parables and figures are quite literal and concern unseen agents called the devil and his messengers

So maybe you can cut to the chase and show your position cards on whether these agents are real, firstly, and whether they are addressed by scripture using allegory and parable

Start there and I'll see how deep you can dive on this subject or if your positions just wallow around in literal land on the surface only.

CoreyD · Jun 26, 2024

BelieveItOarKnot said:
You spent a lot of time telling me I wasn't answering your questions when the fact is you took a hard left turn avoiding scriptural statements that directly refute your obvious errant conclusion quoted above.

Your are welcome to pick up the obvious counter scriptures to your conclusion anytime, or, as you claimed, avoid them entirely

And I just provided a warm up drill. There's a mountain of scriptural evidence showing allegories, parables and figures are quite literal and concern unseen agents called the devil and his messengers

So maybe you can cut to the chase and show your position cards on whether these agents are real, firstly, and whether they are addressed by scripture using allegory and parable

Start there and I'll see how deep you can dive on this subject or if your positions just wallow around in literal land on the surface only.

I don't understand.
I asked you to show me which dictionary you are using to define allegory as literal, and you have not done so.

I provided the definition which is universal.
If you are saying you disagree with this, then I don't know where to go from here.
I cannot use what's in your head because you believe it.
We have to use what is actually factual, if we are to get anywhere meaningful.

Using an account as an allegory, does not make an allegory literal. It just means someone used a real situation as an allegory, to signify something of a greater significance. God did that.
On his level, we expect that, because the spiritual plane is higher, and he is revealing his will.

Other than that, I have addressed everything you said, and there is nothing you said that refutes the facts I mentioned.
I think the ball is in your court, because the facts are not drawn from our mind, and used as a basis for a conclusion.
No scholar is going to come to you to tell them an allegory is literal, or both literal, and figurative.

Right now, anyone can look at the trees, and birds, and use them as an allegory to show you something significant.
The trees and birds are not the allegory. The person uses the tress and birds as an allegory... They represent something else. Like Hagar, and Sarah.

I can't get any clearer than that.
Your turn to play the ball... not in your court though. That's a definite lost.

atpollard · Jun 26, 2024

CoreyD said:
Are the twelve thrones and twelve tribes at Matthew 19:28 literal, or symbolic?

Both. There are 12 literal tribes at the time Jesus walked the earth and the Apostles (and friends) wrote scripture. Those 12 tribes were also SYMBOLIC (even then) as a reference to the whole nation of God's Chosen People (even though most of the tribes were either scattered or intermarried with pagans by then ... that whole "Samaritan" vs Jew" thing). So when they speak of the 12 tribes, they are using it the same way ... it refers to a real people and to the collective "Chosen People of God" (whom Jesus redefined to cut off some "old branches" and graft in some "wild branches").

The issue in understanding scripture is to understand it from the point of view of those to whom it was written. TRUTH is eternal, but language and idioms are specific to a culture. So it is more than "symbolic" but much of it is not quite "literal". When we say "it was raining cats and dogs" we are not describing "symbolic rain" or "literal animals". The "12 Tribes" and the "eye of a needle" are similar.

Who Decides - God or Us?

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Dispensationalist 72

Contributor

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Rom 11:32-God bound everyone to disobedience so...

Rom 11:32-God bound everyone to disobedience so...

Rom 11:32-God bound everyone to disobedience so...

Well-Known Member

noun​

Well-Known Member

Rom 11:32-God bound everyone to disobedience so...

noun​

Well-Known Member

noun​

Rom 11:32-God bound everyone to disobedience so...

Well-Known Member

Rom 11:32-God bound everyone to disobedience so...

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Similar threads

noun

noun

noun