Peru Declares Transgender People Mentally Ill

MehGuy said:

Personally I'm unsure/ in the middle regarding the legitimacy of transgenderism and I'm non-religious myself. In reality I suspect a decent chunk of non-religious people are in the same position too.

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How are you harmed by it?

BCP1928 said:

How are you harmed by it?

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Depends on the circumstances. If a trans person isn't socially pressuring me to confirm to their viewpoint, I'd say no harm is being done to me personally.

MehGuy said:

Depends on the circumstances. If a trans person isn't socially pressuring me to confirm to their viewpoint, I'd say no harm is being done to me personally.

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So you regard accepting a person as who they want to be as harmful to yourself? No, I'm not challenging you or asserting that you are wrong. I would really like to know the answer.

BCP1928 said:

The abnormal is only a problem when it is harmful. When it is not harmful then you have to make a religious issue out of it to make it a problem.

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But it is potentially harmful. If someone is prescribed a drug or a surgery, particularly at an age where there's such little regard for thinking about the long term impacts of something, and they mess up their internal organs or do something that can't be un-done because they're not thinking clearly...that's harm is it not?

I'm not religious so I'm not coming to it from a religious angle here.

There are externalities and potential negative effects anytime you're talking about drugs/surgery, and any time you're suggesting that the rest of society has to make accommodations and wear blinders, else "bigot".

I voice a lot of the same objections to the Ozempic craze we're seeing right now (and even more so when stories started getting published about people receiving Ozempic as young as 12-14).

If a doctor was prescribing that to people too loosely, and without enough consideration for long term effects, we'd call that irresponsible, the same way we would if an orthopedist was recommending back surgery to a disproportionately high number of people.


It should be noted that we (both as a society...and in terms of the eggshells the medical community walks on) are very different than how we'd approach anything else where an adolescent or even young adult was "sure of something".

There's a reason doctors won't typically do vasectomies on younger men who aren't married and don't have any kids yet. (I had to go to 3 different ones before I could get mine and I was over 30). The reason for that is understandable. You ask any 18-22 year old college guy, the prospect of "I'll never want kids, I love partying, and this means I'll be able to do it as much as I want and not have to worry about getting anyone pregnant" sounds awesome to a lot of people that age. And that thing that they're absolutely sure about at 19, could very well be a source of regret 10-15 years later.


I understand there is a lot of religious objections to it for reasons of "sexual immorality", but those haven't been my arguments.


Take alcohol for instance, most of use have positions that have just as much overlap with prohibitionist side than to the libertarian side all things considered. Because there's a degree of overlap doesn't mean any argument in favor of common sense alcohol restriction is coming from a "temperance movement" ideology.

BCP1928 said:

So you regard accepting a person as who they want to be as harmful to yourself? No, I'm not challenging you or asserting that you are wrong. I would really like to know the answer.

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If I have to confirm due to peer pressure.. yeah I consider it harmful to myself. I'm sure some people are not harmed by it. But those who value thinking for themselves, I don't see why that wouldn't harm them.

RileyG said:

It sounds like the country of Peru has common sense.

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Does it?

I'm not sure the govt of Peru has a track record of producing many terrific things. The exec branch has been astonishingly corrupt. Not sure theyre the ones youd want to look to for validation of your cherished positions.

durangodawood said:

Does it?

I'm not sure the govt of Peru has a track record of producing many terrific things. The exec branch has been astonishingly corrupt. Not sure theyre the ones youd want to look to for validation of your cherished positions.

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It looks like they have common sense in regards to men pretending to be women or vice versa.

BCP1928 said:

And how are they harmed by it? As far as I can tell, I am not harmed by the existence of trans people. Of course, trans people have been harmed by ideologues on both sides of the issue, which is especially troublesome for children, but the acceptance of trans people in society for who they want to be does me no harm at all.

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It’s nonsense. Telling children they can actually be girls and vice versa only confuses them. It’s immensely, spiritually harmful. It’s not ok.

BCP1928 said:

So you regard accepting a person as who they want to be as harmful to yourself? No, I'm not challenging you or asserting that you are wrong. I would really like to know the answer.

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How can it be who they are when they cannot accept how they were born?

The hypocrisy of the transgender movement blows my mind.

MehGuy said:

Personally I'm unsure/ in the middle regarding the legitimacy of transgenderism and I'm non-religious myself. In reality I suspect a decent chunk of non-religious people are in the same position too.

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Thank you. That doesn’t surprise me one bit.

RileyG said:

It looks like they have common sense in regards to men pretending to be women or vice versa.

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Seems to me connecting your cherished position to corrupt (or incompetent or tyrannical) institutions doesnt really put that position in a great light. It tempts one to view that position in a negative light more than anything.

MehGuy said:

Personally I'm unsure/ in the middle regarding the legitimacy of transgenderism and I'm non-religious myself. In reality I suspect a decent chunk of non-religious people are in the same position too.

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I am sure of the legitimacy of being transgender. This comes from knowing a person who is trans and knowing some important parts of their life history.

That said, I think there's also a certain amount of faddism afoot among hs age kids, at an age when learning about and establishing who you are has always been fraught. I think this has the potential to be harmful if they choose irreversible treatments.

But for some people Im quite sure its entirely genuine and more real than trying to stay attached to birth certificate identity.

ThatRobGuy said:

But it is potentially harmful. If someone is prescribed a drug or a surgery, particularly at an age where there's such little regard for thinking about the long term impacts of something, and they mess up their internal organs or do something that can't be un-done because they're not thinking clearly...that's harm is it not?

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Of course it is, as I have already stipulated.

ThatRobGuy said:

I'm not religious so I'm not coming to it from a religious angle here.

There are externalities and potential negative effects anytime you're talking about drugs/surgery, and any time you're suggesting that the rest of society has to make accommodations and wear blinders, else "bigot".

I voice a lot of the same objections to the Ozempic craze we're seeing right now (and even more so when stories started getting published about people receiving Ozempic as young as 12-14).

If a doctor was prescribing that to people too loosely, and without enough consideration for long term effects, we'd call that irresponsible, the same way we would if an orthopedist was recommending back surgery to a disproportionately high number of people.


It should be noted that we (both as a society...and in terms of the eggshells the medical community walks on) are very different than how we'd approach anything else where an adolescent or even young adult was "sure of something".

There's a reason doctors won't typically do vasectomies on younger men who aren't married and don't have any kids yet. (I had to go to 3 different ones before I could get mine and I was over 30). The reason for that is understandable. You ask any 18-22 year old college guy, the prospect of "I'll never want kids, I love partying, and this means I'll be able to do it as much as I want and not have to worry about getting anyone pregnant" sounds awesome to a lot of people that age. And that thing that they're absolutely sure about at 19, could very well be a source of regret 10-15 years later.


I understand there is a lot of religious objections to it for reasons of "sexual immorality", but those haven't been my arguments.


Take alcohol for instance, most of use have positions that have just as much overlap with prohibitionist side than to the libertarian side all things considered. Because there's a degree of overlap doesn't mean any argument in favor of common sense alcohol restriction is coming from a "temperance movement" ideology.

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Nor have they been my arguments, though plenty of people are making such arguments. But we are not talking about harm to trans persons, but about harm to those around them caused by having to go along with it. What is that harm?

durangodawood said:

I am sure of the legitimacy of being transgender. This comes from knowing a person who is trans and knowing some important parts of their life history.

That said, I think there's also a certain amount of faddism afoot among hs age kids, at an age when learning about and establishing who you are has always been fraught. I think this has the potential to be harmful if they choose irreversible treatments.

But for some people Im quite sure its entirely genuine and more real than trying to stay attached to birth certificate identity.

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There is also, as I have noticed, a trend amongst kids to adopt an androgynous personal style--not trans kids or gay kids, just kids who don't want to be put into the "manly" man or the "girly" woman boxes because they can see what a nuisance it all is. They are answering the implied question "Are you a man or a woman" with a silent "Decline to state." Good strategy for kids caught up in a culture war, I think.

RileyG said:

How can it be who they are when they cannot accept how they were born?

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They know how they were born. They know what reproductive organs they have. They just don't want to live the role that society attaches to those organs. How are you harmed by that?

RileyG said:

The hypocrisy of the transgender movement blows my mind.

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Remember, we are not talking about trans people being harmed, but how their existence harms those around them.

durangodawood said:

Seems to me connecting your cherished position to corrupt (or incompetent or tyrannical) institutions doesnt really put that position in a great light. It tempts one to view that position in a negative light more than anything.

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Cherished position? It’s common sense, in my opinion. I admit, I don’t know much about. Peru, but I know they are doing the right thing in regards to LGBT issues.

Just my opinion and my opinion only.

BCP1928 said:

They know how they were born. They know what reproductive organs they have. They just don't want to live the role that society attaches to those organs. How are you harmed by that?

Remember, we are not talking about trans people being harmed, but how their existence harms those around them.

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They demand we accept their lifestyle or else. It’s ridiculous.

They bring it upon themselves by their own choices.

RileyG said:

Cherished position? It’s common sense, in my opinion. I admit, I don’t know much about. Peru, but I know they are doing the right thing in regards to LGBT issues.

Just my opinion and my opinion only.

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"Common sense" is inferences we draw from everyday experience. For most people, I would propose that actually knowing a trans person is beyond their everyday experience. This is where so called common sense is more about assumptions than reality.

RileyG said:

They demand we accept their lifestyle or else. It’s ridiculous.

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Maybe, but how does it harm you to do it?

RileyG said:

They bring it upon themselves by their own choices.

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Bring what? The only choice they make is to try and live openly as who they are or to hide it.

BCP1928 said:

Maybe, but how does it harm you to do it?

Bring what? The only choice they make is to try and live openly as who they are or to hide it.

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It’s not who they are. They literally have to take hormones for the rest of their lives or their normal sexual characteristics will take over. It’s all make-believe.