Peru Declares Transgender People Mentally Ill

Chesterton · May 20, 2024

This is in contradiction of the World Health Organization.

Peru classifies transgender identities as 'mental health problems' in new law

Protesters pushed back against the Peruvian Health Ministry’s new gender identity classifications, which contradict the World Health Organization’s guidance.

www.nbcnews.com

Handmaid for Jesus · May 20, 2024

Chesterton said:
This is in contradiction of the World Health Organization.

Peru classifies transgender identities as 'mental health problems' in new law

Protesters pushed back against the Peruvian Health Ministry’s new gender identity classifications, which contradict the World Health Organization’s guidance.

www.nbcnews.com

I agree to a point. It is more spiritually ill than mentally ill.

Chesterton · May 20, 2024

Handmaid for Jesus said:
I agree to a point. It is more spiritually ill than mentally ill.

I guess there're two ways of looking at it. They claim they suffer from dysphoria. Any word starting with the prefix "dys" is an illness, as in dysentery or muscular dystrophy. So, Peru is correct.

The alternative is that the Left just wants to legitimize transgenderism by playing with words that they really don't mean, and so they protest when you take them seriously, in which case they just got hoisted by their own petard.

Friedrich Rubinstein · May 20, 2024

If I'm not mistaken the DSM-5 categorizes gender dysphoria as a mental disorder, doesn't it?

Edit: Sorry, just finished the article. It mentions it in the very last paragraph.

RocksInMyHead · May 20, 2024

Chesterton said:
I guess there're two ways of looking at it. They claim they suffer from dysphoria. Any word starting with the prefix "dys" is an illness, as in dysentery or muscular dystrophy. So, Peru is correct.

Funnily enough, this is addressed in the final paragraph of your article:

In the United States, the American Psychiatric Association has used the terminology “gender dysphoria” in its Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders since 2013 — replacing “gender identity disorder” — focusing on the distress related to transgender people’s experiences, rather than on the identities themselves.

The article also includes further clarification from the Peruvian government that makes it clear this is a bit more complex than you're implying:

On May 11, the Peruvian Health Ministry released a statement, insisting that the update is to ensure comprehensive mental health interventions.

“The ministry ratifies its position that gender and sexual diversity are not diseases.” it stated. “In this framework, we express our respect for gender identities, as well as our rejection of the stigmatization of sexual diversity in the country.”

Did you read the whole thing, or just the headline?

ThatRobGuy · May 20, 2024

I think there's some overloading & dishonesty happening from both factions for the conversation with regards to what Peru is doing.

A) They're packing in additional designators (like they're labelling "cross-dressing" as part of it, cross-dressing is something that can be detached from gender identity disorders... if that actually was the case, every 80's hair metal band would have a "mental disorder" according to that. And there are certain people who aren't trans (like gay men and women) who tend to dress in ways that are little more "flamboyant" or "butch" that may get caught up in the mix, but don't have gender identity issues.

B) There's, I think, legitimate concern that moves like this could be the precursor to legitimizing poor treatment of people, or limiting the treatment options they seek for themselves.

On the flip side,
A) The advocates and protestors suggesting that "this needs to be normalized", and "this shouldn't be viewed as a condition" is undercutting their own arguments that suggested that this was a personal medical decision between them and their doctor.

B) Saying "this goes against the WHOs guidance" undercuts it further, as you don't need buy-in from the top health ministry in the world with regards to how to handle things that are "completely normal, and not in anyway indicative of a problem"

It sounds like Peru's case isn't all that different from our own, where you have two ideologically driven factions trying to argue past each other, and using disingenuous ploys.

There's some bigotry coming from the "anti" side, because they lump it in with some sort of sexual deviancy (and anything perceived to be in that category is going to draw ire from more puritanical types)

There's some on the "pro" and "anti" sides that like to flip flop between whether or not it's a medical/mental condition.

"It's willful perversion!" "No it's not!, it's a medical and mental health situation that should be between patients and doctors"

"It's normal" "No it's not!, it's a mental health condition!"

RocksInMyHead · May 20, 2024

Friedrich Rubinstein said:
If I'm not mistaken the DSM-5 categorizes gender dysphoria as a mental disorder, doesn't it?

It does, but it defines "gender dysphoria" as the distress related to transgender identity, not the identity itself.

ThatRobGuy · May 20, 2024

RocksInMyHead said:
It does, but it defines "gender dysphoria" as the distress related to transgender identity, not the identity itself.

But doesn't deliberate obfuscation like that tend to muddy the waters?

That'd be like implying that the core issue with schizophrenia is "the distress related to hearing voices and seeing things that aren't there, not the imagined voices themselves"

It's not hard to see why they changed their phrasing, they're attempting to give the impression that the main source of distress is almost exclusively from the poor treatment they're getting from others rather than the inherent distress many would have even if society was 100% welcoming.

Chesterton · May 20, 2024

RocksInMyHead said:
Funnily enough, this is addressed in the final paragraph of your article:

The article also includes further clarification from the Peruvian government that makes it clear this is a bit more complex than you're implying:

Did you read the whole thing, or just the headline?

RocksInMyHead said:
It does, but it defines "gender dysphoria" as the distress related to transgender identity, not the identity itself.

This is just talking in circles. Like saying muscular dsytrophy is defined as the distress related to ... muscular dystrophy.

Friedrich Rubinstein · May 20, 2024

RocksInMyHead said:
It does, but it defines "gender dysphoria" as the distress related to transgender identity, not the identity itself.

Sure, but that's also a bit misleading. The Venn diagram of people who identify as transgender and those who experience distress related to their identity is virtually a congruent circle. The distress these people experience is the reason why they require hormone treatment, gender-affirming surgeries or even just "social acceptance".

RocksInMyHead · May 20, 2024

ThatRobGuy said:
But doesn't deliberate obfuscation like that tend to muddy the waters?

That'd be like implying that the core issue with schizophrenia is "the distress related to hearing voices and seeing things that aren't there, not the imagined voices themselves"

It's not hard to see why they changed their phrasing, they're attempting to give the impression that the main source of distress is almost exclusively from the poor treatment they're getting from others rather than the inherent distress many would have even if society was 100% welcoming.

The distinction is that schizophrenia is treatable via medication (i.e. you can make a schizophrenic "normal" again). The same cannot be said for transgender identity - it can't currently be "cured" other than by making the genitals match the identity (or at least allowing the person to live as the opposite gender). If, in the future, a cure is identified, then the DSM will be amended to reflect that.

However, that's probably a fairly low priority for researchers - unlike schizophrenics (or people with BPD, depression, and most other mental disorders), people dealing with transgender identity don't represent a threat to themselves or others, and aside from the societal consequences, there are no real negatives to allowing a person with transgender identity to live as the gender they identify with. Since medications - especially those for mental disorders - frequently have serious side effects, the favored way of addressing the issue is working towards societal acceptance.

ThatRobGuy · May 20, 2024

RocksInMyHead said:
The distinction is that schizophrenia is treatable via medication (i.e. you can make a schizophrenic "normal" again). The same cannot be said for transgender identity - it can't currently be "cured" other than by making the genitals match the identity (or at least allowing the person to live as the opposite gender). If, in the future, a cure is identified, then the DSM will be amended to reflect that.

Correct, but that doesn't mean that it's not possible to cure it down the road...one of the points of contention I've had with the various debates on it is that researchers and the higher-ups in the various social/soft-sciences fields have been almost exclusively rallying around the notion that affirmation is "THE" approach to it, and to suggest that its even something in need of "curing" gets viewed as "offensive" or "transphobic"

To even suggest "hey, this is what we've got right now, but let's keep looking, we may be able to cure it some day" would be viewed as offensive by some.

RocksInMyHead said:
However, that's probably a fairly low priority for researchers - unlike schizophrenics (or people with BPD, depression, and most other mental disorders), people dealing with transgender identity don't represent a threat to themselves or others, and aside from the societal consequences, there are no real negatives to allowing a person with transgender identity to live as the gender they identify with. Since medications - especially those for mental disorders - frequently have serious side effects, the favored way of addressing the issue is working towards societal acceptance.

But there are some potential consequences...

When a condition overlaps with a societal tone that suggests that it's something that should be a source of pride or empowerment or allows one to figuratively "sit at the cool table", it muddies the waters a bit, and for certain clinics/clinicians, as the old saying goes "everything looks like a nail to a person who only has hammers" and we run the risk of overprescribing some of these treatments.

While it's not a perfect parallel, I would say it has some resemblances to the ADD/ADHD situation with regards to the part I find concerning.

Are ADD/ADHD things that are very real conditions that warrant treatment and certain accommodations for the people who are afflicted with it? Absolutely Yes.

Was there something of a "contagion" aspect where as soon as Billy's parents were told by Jimmy's parents "you know, after the doctor diagnosed our son with ADHD and gave him these meds, he started doing much better in school and some of his behavior problems diminished", Billy's parents said "gee, our son isn't doing great in school either and has some issues, maybe he has ADHD, let's take him to the doctor"?
Also Yes.

What I'd prefer to also not see happen is to have this particular topic go the way of the "healthy at any size/beautiful at any size" movement. Where there's something we all know is a problem and not normal, and have to not only pretend it is normal, but also pretend it's something that should be a source of pride and empowerment, else, be accused of being "fat phobic" or accused of "hating fat people", and then we end up in conversations about how it's bigoted that airplanes charge people for two seats, etc...

Larniavc · May 20, 2024

Chesterton said:
Any word starting with the prefix "dys"

Apart from dystopia, of course.

Chesterton · May 20, 2024

Larniavc said:
Apart from dystopia, of course.

A dystopian society is by definition a sick society.

rockytopva · May 20, 2024

The quality of children depends upon a good upbringing. If we have a bad generation arise it was because of a bad upbringing. I have often wondered if the United States were invaded by China the Chinese would have their hands full of bad people to deal with.

RileyG · May 20, 2024

It sounds like the country of Peru has common sense.

BCP1928 · May 20, 2024

ThatRobGuy said:
Correct, but that doesn't mean that it's not possible to cure it down the road...one of the points of contention I've had with the various debates on it is that researchers and the higher-ups in the various social/soft-sciences fields have been almost exclusively rallying around the notion that affirmation is "THE" approach to it, and to suggest that its even something in need of "curing" gets viewed as "offensive" or "transphobic"

To even suggest "hey, this is what we've got right now, but let's keep looking, we may be able to cure it some day" would be viewed as offensive by some.

But there are some potential consequences...

When a condition overlaps with a societal tone that suggests that it's something that should be a source of pride or empowerment or allows one to figuratively "sit at the cool table", it muddies the waters a bit, and for certain clinics/clinicians, as the old saying goes "everything looks like a nail to a person who only has hammers" and we run the risk of overprescribing some of these treatments.

While it's not a perfect parallel, I would say it has some resemblances to the ADD/ADHD situation with regards to the part I find concerning.

Are ADD/ADHD things that are very real conditions that warrant treatment and certain accommodations for the people who are afflicted with it? Absolutely Yes.

Was there something of a "contagion" aspect where as soon as Billy's parents were told by Jimmy's parents "you know, after the doctor diagnosed our son with ADHD and gave him these meds, he started doing much better in school and some of his behavior problems diminished", Billy's parents said "gee, our son isn't doing great in school either and has some issues, maybe he has ADHD, let's take him to the doctor"?
Also Yes.

What I'd prefer to also not see happen is to have this particular topic go the way of the "healthy at any size/beautiful at any size" movement. Where there's something we all know is a problem and not normal, and have to not only pretend it is normal, but also pretend it's something that should be a source of pride and empowerment, else, be accused of being "fat phobic" or accused of "hating fat people", and then we end up in conversations about how it's bigoted that airplanes charge people for two seats, etc...

The abnormal is only a problem when it is harmful. When it is not harmful then you have to make a religious issue out of it to make it a problem.

RileyG · May 20, 2024

BCP1928 said:
The abnormal is only a problem when it is harmful. When it is not harmful then you have to make a religious issue out of it to make it a problem.

Religious issue, eh? Plenty of secular people do not accept trans ideology. Men are men and women are women.

MehGuy · May 20, 2024

RileyG said:
Religious issue, eh? Plenty of secular people do not accept trans ideology. Men are men and women are women.

Personally I'm unsure/ in the middle regarding the legitimacy of transgenderism and I'm non-religious myself. In reality I suspect a decent chunk of non-religious people are in the same position too.

BCP1928 · May 20, 2024

RileyG said:
Religious issue, eh? Plenty of secular people do not accept trans ideology. Men are men and women are women.

And how are they harmed by it? As far as I can tell, I am not harmed by the existence of trans people. Of course, trans people have been harmed by ideologues on both sides of the issue, which is especially troublesome for children, but the acceptance of trans people in society for who they want to be does me no harm at all.

Peru Declares Transgender People Mentally Ill

Whats So Funny bout Peace Love and Understanding

You can't steal my joy

Whats So Funny bout Peace Love and Understanding

Well-Known Member

God is innocent; Noah built on a floodplain!

Part of the IT crowd

God is innocent; Noah built on a floodplain!

Part of the IT crowd

Whats So Funny bout Peace Love and Understanding

Well-Known Member

God is innocent; Noah built on a floodplain!

Part of the IT crowd

"Encourage him to keep talking. He's hilarious."

Whats So Funny bout Peace Love and Understanding

Love to pray! :)

Veteran

Well-Known Member

Veteran

A member of the less neotenous sex..

Well-Known Member

Similar threads