the Thief on the cross is a perfect picture of salvation, the simplicity that is in Christ

Cockcrow said:

Why would God include this story then about the thief, if it didn't mean anything for today. you say he died sinless, but the bible says in Romans 3:23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God. salvation is not about dying sinless, obviously your born again spirit is sinless, but we still have the flesh which is why the bible tells us to put on the new man, but nobody is 100% sinless right now, when they die and their spirit departs to be with Christ then yes that spirit is sinless, but not our flesh. the flesh stays behind. and eventually we will be given a new body. because this body we have currently is not sinless or perfect.

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The thief died sinless because all of his sins had been forgiven by Jesus. Afterwards he was unable to sin anymore. It's difficult to commit a sin while you're hanging on a cross. It's just like everyone else whom Jesus forgave. He said, "your sins are forgiven. Now go and sin no more". If any of those people had fallen over dead after he forgave them they would have died sinless. All of their previous sins had been pardoned. We receive that same pardon nowadays through baptism.

Cockcrow said:

that makes zero sense, we are all sinners until the moment of death. If you want to say sinless in the spirit I agree our spirit is sinless, but the flesh is not sinless. Paul said in my flesh dwelleth no good thing. Christ said the spirit is willing, but the flesh is weak. and no baptism doesn't save you. Believing on the Lord Jesus Christ saves you.

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1Pe 3:21 - There is also an antitype which now saves us—baptism (not the removal of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God), through the resurrection of Jesus Christ,

Mar 16:16 - “He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned.

Dan Perez said:

We do know that Christ told the thief , that he would be with Christ in Paradise and then his body went to the grave !!

All that died before the THIEF went to a place called HELL , .

So where will all people go to those saved by GRACE go ??

dan p

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Prior to the cross, they went to Hades or Paradise.

Lexicon :: Strong's G86 - adēs​

ᾅδης​

Transliteration
adēs (Key)
Pronunciation
hah'-dace

Part of Speech
proper locative noun
Root Word (Etymology)
From ἄλφα (G1) (as negative particle) and εἴδω (G1492)

There were two sides and a veil between them. Lazarus went to Paradise, a shadow of Heaven.
The Rich man went to Hades a shadow of Hell.

Peace and Blessings

HTacianas said:

Act 2:38 Then Peter said to them, “Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins;

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Excellent!
Now look up all the times Baptism is used in scripture. Then divide when it is Water based and When it is Spirit based. And when you are not sure.

Peace and Blessings

HTacianas said:

1Pe 3:21 - There is also an antitype which now saves us—baptism (not the removal of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God), through the resurrection of Jesus Christ,

Mar 16:16 - “He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned.

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So, if one is in the desert, and has the gospel shared with him, but there is no water for baptism for miles or hundreds of miles, the person could still die, unsaved, because the physical properties of water and full immersion is not available. All the while, the Baptism of the Holy Spirit sits widely by waiting for enough water.

Peace and Blessings

TPop said:

Excellent!
Now look up all the times Baptism is used in scripture. Then divide when it is Water based and When it is Spirit based. And when you are not sure.

Peace and Blessings

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There has always been two baptisms. One in water for forgiveness of previous sins, the other baptism in the Holy Spirit through the laying on of hands. See especially the account of Philip the Deacon and the men of Samaria in Acts 8.

TPop said:

So, if one is in the desert, and has the gospel shared with him, but there is no water for baptism for miles or hundreds of miles, the person could still die, unsaved, because the physical properties of water and full immersion is not available. All the while, the Baptism of the Holy Spirit sits widely by waiting for enough water.

Peace and Blessings

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Actually, according to the Didache, the sprinkling of water is acceptable.

HTacianas said:

There has always been two baptisms. One in water for forgiveness of previous sins, the other baptism in the Holy Spirit through the laying on of hands. See especially the account of Philip the Deacon and the men of Samaria in Acts 8.

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Water Baptism is not for the forgiveness of any sin. It is simply an outward sign of obedience and newness in life.

Baptism of the Holy Spirit, where the Holy Spirit indwells us is at the moment of Salvation. Not by laying on of hands.
It is the same reality for all Children of God. Just like there is one Faith and one Father. There is one Baptism by the Holy Spirt into one body.

[1Co 12:12-13 KJV] 12 For as the body is one, and hath many members, and all the members of that one body, being many, are one body: so also [is] Christ. 13 For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether [we be] Jews or Gentiles, whether [we be] bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.

Peace and Blessings

HTacianas said:

Actually, according to the Didache, the sprinkling of water is acceptable.

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John the Baptist stood in a river and sprinkled water on people?

Peace and Blessings

Aaron112 said:

Did the Almighty Creator from Whom All Life Comes
ever forget something ? Let alone something important ! ?

When in the Bible someone turned to Him, Did He Provide the place also to be immersed, or not ?

Even in Russia, over hundreds of years, whenever anyone turned to Him and repented, He provided a place to be immersed in Jesus' Name, ... ... ...

and they were immersed in Jesus' Name, even if / though at times/ it was in freezing river, and at times they had to break thru ice...... God Always Provides.

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Or it was Baptism of the Holy Spirit, which is part of Salvation and is always done right then and there.

As a physical aspect, water baptism can be put off for days, months, or years. Those that put it off, were not saved? Were partially saved? Not saved till they got water baptized at a later time?
Please tell me.

Peace and Blessings

TPop said:

Water Baptism is not for the forgiveness of any sin. It is simply an outward sign of obedience and newness in life.

Baptism of the Holy Spirit, where the Holy Spirit indwells us is at the moment of Salvation. Not by laying on of hands.
It is the same reality for all Children of God. Just like there is one Faith and one Father. There is one Baptism by the Holy Spirt into one body.

[1Co 12:12-13 KJV] 12 For as the body is one, and hath many members, and all the members of that one body, being many, are one body: so also [is] Christ. 13 For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether [we be] Jews or Gentiles, whether [we be] bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.

Peace and Blessings

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So now explain to us why the bible says to be baptized for the remission of sins. And then explain to us what happened with the men of Samaria, including Simon Magus.

And by the way, there is no such mention of "outward sign of obedience and newness of life" anywhere in the new testament nor anywhere in the history of Christianity.

Cockcrow said:

that makes zero sense, we are all sinners until the moment of death. If you want to say sinless in the spirit I agree our spirit is sinless, but the flesh is not sinless. Paul said in my flesh dwelleth no good thing. Christ said the spirit is willing, but the flesh is weak. and no baptism doesn't save you. Believing on the Lord Jesus Christ saves you.

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The early church understood "belief" and "be baptized" to mean the exact same thing because a true belief involved the converted being baptized immediately or ASAP without exception. To say "when you believed" meant the exact same thing as "when you were baptized" to the early church and the apostles.

Belief is of no use to you if you refuse the answer of "What must we do to be saved" and, likewise, baptism is of no use to you if you do not believe. This is the logic of Mark 16:16 wherein salvation is given through belief AND baptism. "Even the demons believe and shudder".

Without baptism in water and of the Spirit, there is no unification with Christ in death, no admission into the Body, no forgiveness of sins, no "born again", no indwelling of the Spirit, no "newness of life/new creation", no release from the Law, etc.

TPop said:

Excellent!
Now look up all the times Baptism is used in scripture. Then divide when it is Water based and When it is Spirit based. And when you are not sure.

Peace and Blessings

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There exists no division between the water and Spirit. Jesus did not divide the two and neither can you.

There is but one baptism (Ephesians 4:5); the same baptism Jesus was baptized with in water and of Spirit (Mark 10:39).

Thomas Helwys, the founder of the Baptist church, had this to say: "And our Savior Christ says, ‘Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.’ (John 3) And Hebrews 10:22, ‘Let us draw near with a true heart in assurance of faith, our hearts being pure from evil confidence, and washed in our bodies with pure water.’

Here is the true baptism set down, which is the baptism of amendment of life for the remission of sins. And here is the true matter where men must be washed, which is water and the Holy Ghost, that is pure from an evil conscience, and washed with water. Therefore can you not divide the water and the Spirit in this baptism. Christ has joined them together, and he that denies washing, or is not washed with the Spirit is not baptized, because we see the baptism of Christ is to be washed with water and the Holy Ghost.”

Every single conversion account in the New Testament involves the converted being baptized in water, "for the remission of their sins", immediately.

TPop said:

So, if one is in the desert, and has the gospel shared with him, but there is no water for baptism for miles or hundreds of miles, the person could still die, unsaved, because the physical properties of water and full immersion is not available. All the while, the Baptism of the Holy Spirit sits widely by waiting for enough water.

Peace and Blessings

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Doctrine and truth is not based on a hypothetical situation you can imagine up. Scripture teaches the necessity of water baptism for salvation, and I will continue to teach such and let God deal with any exceptions should there ever be one.

TPop said:

Or it was Baptism of the Holy Spirit, which is part of Salvation and is always done right then and there.

As a physical aspect, water baptism can be put off for days, months, or years. Those that put it off, were not saved? Were partially saved? Not saved till they got water baptized at a later time?
Please tell me.

Peace and Blessings

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There were none that put it off because they understood the necessity and urgency. Every single conversion account involves the converted being baptized in water immediately.

HTacianas said:

So now explain to us why the bible says to be baptized for the remission of sins. And then explain to us what happened with the men of Samaria, including Simon Magus.

And by the way, there is no such mention of "outward sign of obedience and newness of life" anywhere in the new testament nor anywhere in the history of Christianity.

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You yourself said is. There are two types of baptism. One of water which was required by Law for Jesus. Jesus could not be the High Priest without fulfilling the Law. It was a shadow pointing to the Baptism of the Holy Spirit. Water does not save. Faith does.

Then of the Holy Spirit since the day of Pentacost. Water does not save. Faith does. Simon and the men and women believed and were also baptized. But belief was what created the change. Not the water. And then they were baptized/received the Holy Ghost. Because that was the process to display the change so that Gentiles could understand this new thing.

[Act 8:12-19 KJV] 12 But when they believed Philip preaching the things concerning the kingdom of God, and the name of Jesus Christ, they were baptized, both men and women. 13 Then Simon himself believed also: and when he was baptized, he continued with Philip, and wondered, beholding the miracles and signs which were done. 14 Now when the apostles which were at Jerusalem heard that Samaria had received the word of God, they sent unto them Peter and John: 15 Who, when they were come down, prayed for them, that they might receive the Holy Ghost: 16 (For as yet he was fallen upon none of them: only they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.) 17 Then laid they [their] hands on them, and they received the Holy Ghost. 18 And when Simon saw that through laying on of the apostles' hands the Holy Ghost was given, he offered them money, 19 Saying, Give me also this power, that on whomsoever I lay hands, he may receive the Holy Ghost.

Water baptized was a sing.
Then they were baptized/received the Holy Spirit.
Simon knew he was missing something. So he wanted the Holy Spirit also. But not for the right reason. So Simon was water baptized.
Then Simon received the Holy Spirit on Pentacost with the others.

Baptism does not actually mean water. It means immersed. One is a shadow. One is the completed or completes.

Peace and Blessings

bibletruths said:

There exists no division between the water and Spirit. Jesus did not divide the two and neither can you.

There is but one baptism (Ephesians 4:5); the same baptism Jesus was baptized with in water and of Spirit (Mark 10:39).

Thomas Helwys, the founder of the Baptist church, had this to say: "And our Savior Christ says, ‘Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.’ (John 3) And Hebrews 10:22, ‘Let us draw near with a true heart in assurance of faith, our hearts being pure from evil confidence, and washed in our bodies with pure water.’

Here is the true baptism set down, which is the baptism of amendment of life for the remission of sins. And here is the true matter where men must be washed, which is water and the Holy Ghost, that is pure from an evil conscience, and washed with water. Therefore can you not divide the water and the Spirit in this baptism. Christ has joined them together, and he that denies washing, or is not washed with the Spirit is not baptized, because we see the baptism of Christ is to be washed with water and the Holy Ghost.”

Every single conversion account in the New Testament involves the converted being baptized in water, "for the remission of their sins", immediately.

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That is right. Jesus did not divide. Jesus completed the Water Baptism requirement for him to take his position. And then there was the laying on of hands for a period of time up to receiving the Holy Spirit on Pentacost. And then on Pentacost, the Holy Spirit comes without the Laying on of Hands and indwells us and Baptizes us into the Body of Christ.

[1Co 12:13 KJV] 13 For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether [we be] Jews or Gentiles, whether [we be] bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.

You don't fail to receive salvation if you are not water-baptized. Water is for man. Perhaps you are thinking of the Living Water. Also, not of man, and not water from a tub.

Peace and Blessings

I believe the thief is an example that will be imitated to the second coming. In an absolute sense, we may repent up to the moment of death. In daily life most of us work out our salvation ( Philippians 2:12, 1 John 2:1-29 etc.).

bibletruths said:

There were none that put it off because they understood the necessity and urgency. Every single conversion account involves the converted being baptized in water immediately.

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I don't do works based. It is faith based.
So were all those saved always done at the water?
Or where is the verses about needing to quickly find water to complete the salvation process.
You can't just speculate that everyone every saved was right near water because God would make it so.

Peace and Blessings