Evidence of Hebrew Slavery in Egypt?

2PhiloVoid · Feb 16, 2024

So, the Exodus. What can I say? Here's the short of it. As many of us already know, the tendency among secular historians today
is to firmly recognize that there is no evidence for the Exodus account in the Book of, Exodus. They don't see any evidence, and thus, they don't feel confident that any of it ever happened. They often simply take it as an ancient interpolation that a few Semitic groups were jumbled around and moved.

The following video, though, seems to offer up some interesting historical items for our consideration, and it applies to the possible historicity of the Exodus.

Let's watch, and feel free to comment:

Signs of Israelite Slavery in Egypt - The Exodus

by PatternsOfEvidence

public hermit · Feb 16, 2024

We shouldn't expect the Egyptians to corroborate the Hebrew account. The winners write history, and so on, but this is interesting. The biblical account could be tracking truth and we still should not expect to find Egyptian corroboration. Why would the Egyptians recount their own defeat? That is not the stuff of Egyptian history. lol. I wonder about the use of "Semitic peoples." As a term, it hardly;y makes sense pre-Exodus, extra-biblical. That term included Arabs and a whole host of folks in the relevant time period, according to antiquated ways of tracking such things..

public hermit · Feb 16, 2024

public hermit said:
We shouldn't expect the Egyptians to corroborate the Hebrew account. The winners write history, and so on, but this is interesting. The biblical account could be tracking truth and we still should not expect to find Egyptian corroboration. Why would the Egyptians recount their own defeat? That is not the stuff of Egyptian history. lol. I wonder about the use of "Semitic peoples." As a term, it hardly;y makes sense pre-Exodus, extra-biblical. That term included Arabs and a whole host of folks in the relevant time period, according to antiquated ways of tracking such things..

The slave list has names that were biblical and Semitic. Okay, biblical names were also very often Canaanite. If the name includes "El" that is Canaanite in origin.These people lived and mixed together. That doesn't mean Hebrews were not salves in Egypt, but it is far from a definitive showing they were as understood by the Hebrew Scriptures.

2PhiloVoid · Feb 17, 2024

public hermit said:
We shouldn't expect the Egyptians to corroborate the Hebrew account. The winners write history, and so on, but this is interesting. The biblical account could be tracking truth and we still should not expect to find Egyptian corroboration. Why would the Egyptians recount their own defeat? That is not the stuff of Egyptian history. lol. I wonder about the use of "Semitic peoples." As a term, it hardly;y makes sense pre-Exodus, extra-biblical. That term included Arabs and a whole host of folks in the relevant time period, according to antiquated ways of tracking such things..

That's a good point. Historical accounts, as remnants from the Past, shouldn't be expected to always sync up together being that they are human products.

I wonder about the use of "Semitic peoples" too. Some of the way this term is denotated and parsed depends on the historical frame of analysis we choose to apply. Do we study the ancient Egyptian swath of history solely as Secular Humanists or, instead, do we do so as Biblically mindful investigators?

I thought it was interesting in the video how David Rohl mentioned that when contrasting sets of evidence appear that "don't fit" with historical expectations, rather than being held with acknowledgment, they sometimes are set to the side and forgotten or ignored. Like him, though, I'd rather just acknowledge that we have a jumble of fragments that still exist and are there for our re-consideration.

Chesterton · Feb 18, 2024

public hermit said:
We shouldn't expect the Egyptians to corroborate the Hebrew account. The winners write history, and so on, but this is interesting. The biblical account could be tracking truth and we still should not expect to find Egyptian corroboration. Why would the Egyptians recount their own defeat? That is not the stuff of Egyptian history. lol. I wonder about the use of "Semitic peoples." As a term, it hardly;y makes sense pre-Exodus, extra-biblical. That term included Arabs and a whole host of folks in the relevant time period, according to antiquated ways of tracking such things..

Yeah, I've read that although most peoples do it to some extent, the Egyptians were especially bad about exaggerating their victories and achievements, and downplaying or not recording their losses and failures.

Benjamin Müller · Feb 24, 2024

I'm going to play devil's advocate and say the Egyptians didn't do it--that's a Mandela effect.

Isaiah 52:4 For thus says the Lord GOD: “My people went down at first Into Egypt to dwell there; Then the Assyrian oppressed them without cause.

The Pharaoh of the Oppression was an Assyrian. This verse has nothing to do with the Assyrian captivity which God allowed for a cause. This event is specific to the Exodus account. Pharaoh's people said, "Know you not Egypt is destroyed", which must place this at the end of a dynasty.

The Exodus and Revelation are book ends because the Beast Power will have Assyrian roots and oppress Israel again, but instead of Moses, Christ will come to redeem His people and instead of coming down on Mt. Sinai, He will come to the Mt. of Olives.

The only time an Assyrian could have ruled Egypt was during the Hyksos period, placing the Exodus c. 1550 BC. Ancient Writers claim Ahmose was the Pharaoh of the Exodus; I believe he was contemporary with it, but not the Pharaoh of the Exodus. That would have been the final Hyksos Pharaoh.

There are indications in Exodus that the Pharaoh was not Egyptian, such as stating Israel was more and mightier than him and his people. Israel could never outnumber the Egyptians at that time. Pharaoh himself must have been a miniority. The second indication is in the following passage:

Exodus 8:26 And Moses said, “It is not right to do so, for we would be sacrificing the abomination of the Egyptians to the Lord our God. If we sacrifice the abomination of the Egyptians before their eyes, then will they not stone us?

Who does Moses have to explain to Pharaoh the punishment for sacrificing the abominations of the Egyptians (sheep/goats). Pharaoh is suppose to be a type of high priest of the Egyptians gods and should know this already, so why say, "will they not stone us"; just saying, we will be sacrificing lambs and goats should have been enough. Pharaoh should have been like, "Oh, hm, yeah that would be a problem if you did that in the land", but he seemingly doesn't care and Moses has to explain what an offense this would be.

Kylie · Mar 2, 2024

2PhiloVoid said:
So, the Exodus. What can I say? Here's the short of it. As many of us already know, the tendency among secular historians today
is to firmly recognize that there is no evidence for the Exodus account in the Book of, Exodus. They don't see any evidence, and thus, they don't feel confident that any of it ever happened. They often simply take it as an ancient interpolation that a few Semitic groups were jumbled around and moved.

The following video, though, seems to offer up some interesting historical items for our consideration, and it applies to the possible historicity of the Exodus.

Let's watch, and feel free to comment:

Signs of Israelite Slavery in Egypt - The Exodus
by PatternsOfEvidence

The guy who made this, Timothy Mahoney, is a film maker. He is not a theologist, and he is not a historian. So why is his opinion being treated as valid?

2PhiloVoid · Mar 2, 2024

Kylie said:
The guy who made this, Timothy Mahoney, is a film maker. He is not a theologist, and he is not a historian. So why is his opinion being treated as valid?

Ok. And? What does your citation about Timothy Mahoney have to do with the cogency or lack thereof of historical theory presented in the video?

It's not as if my presenting of a SINGLE video is meant to be some kind of definitive answer. No, the MERE presentation of a single video is but an ice breaker, not some finishing conclusion .......................................................................

Kylie · Mar 3, 2024

2PhiloVoid said:
Ok. And? What does your citation about Timothy Mahoney have to do with the cogency or lack thereof of historical theory presented in the video?

It's not as if my presenting of a SINGLE video is meant to be some kind of definitive answer. No, the MERE presentation of a single video is but an ice breaker, not some finishing conclusion .......................................................................

What dioes it have to do?

Simply that I'd like to get my history from an actual HISTORIAN.

Can you show me a HISTORIAN who agrees with the claims he makes?

This video is about as reliable about a plumber making a video about heart surgery.

2PhiloVoid · Mar 3, 2024

Kylie said:
What dioes it have to do?

Simply that I'd like to get my history from an actual HISTORIAN.

Can you show me a HISTORIAN who agrees with the claims he makes?

This video is about as reliable about a plumber making a video about heart surgery.

I think your focus here is misplaced since, if you watch the video, there are two historians presented within it whom you can hear out. Like you, and being the academic that I am, I also prefer to get my information from "actual" Historians of all kinds (as well as Historiographers and Philosophers of History).

That's the point of the video, despite whatever questionable fact remains about its producer. I mean, what you're proposing as a criticism of the video's producer is, as far as I can tell, very nearly an Ad hominem. But for now, I'll give you the benefit of the doubt.

If you don't like what the two historians in the video have to say, then you can feel free to disagree with them.

Neogaia777 · Mar 11, 2024

Bump/following, cause I haven't completely given up on this subject yet, and would like to hear "all views" before definitively concluding, etc.

God Bless.

2PhiloVoid · Mar 12, 2024

Neogaia777 said:
Bump/following, cause I haven't completely given up on this subject yet, and would like to hear "all views" before definitively concluding, etc.

God Bless.

If you're interested in views, then the next thing for you to do is to get current on the historical and archaeological positions on the presence of Israel in history: Minimalists, Centrists, and Maximalists.

rvs · Jul 7, 2024

2PhiloVoid said:
So, the Exodus. What can I say? Here's the short of it. As many of us already know, the tendency among secular historians today
is to firmly recognize that there is no evidence for the Exodus account in the Book of, Exodus. They don't see any evidence, and thus, they don't feel confident that any of it ever happened. They often simply take it as an ancient interpolation that a few Semitic groups were jumbled around and moved.

The following video, though, seems to offer up some interesting historical items for our consideration, and it applies to the possible historicity of the Exodus.

Let's watch, and feel free to comment:

Signs of Israelite Slavery in Egypt - The Exodus
by PatternsOfEvidence

Mud bricks only need 1% straw, while burnt-bake bricks need 50% straw. @common prophets can you explain more, please?

2PhiloVoid · Jul 7, 2024

rvs said:
Mud bricks only need 1% straw, while burnt-bake bricks need 50% straw. @common prophets can you explain more, please?

My apologies, but I'm not clear about which portion of the OP video you're commenting upon?

rvs · Jul 7, 2024

2PhiloVoid said:
My apologies, but I'm not clear about which portion of the OP video you're commenting upon?

Yes I will show you where from video yes
@2PhiloVoid I will timestamp and show
Signs of Israelite Slavery in Egypt - The Exodus
by PatternsOfEvidence

0:24 time stamp in video
create bricks out of mud and straw

My thoughts not enough straw for mud bricks - so no need to gather straw.

This is why I showed that bake-burnt bricks need 50% of straw and need to gather straw, but if mud bricks do not have enough straw, there is a need to gather straw.

I don't think the Hebrews were slaves.
Also, in KMT Egypt, they build with stone, so there is no need for straw.

Is it else where they build with burnt-bake bricks needing a lot of straw?

I brought this to attention due to seeing mud bricks in this video

2PhiloVoid said:
Signs of Israelite Slavery in Egypt - The Exodus
by PatternsOfEvidence

rvs · Jul 7, 2024

Ancient Israel in Egypt and the Exodus

www.academia.edu

The lack of corroborating archaeological evidence in
Egypt and Sinai

Really so James K. Hoffmeier actually thinks lacking evidence of Sinai, what are your thoughts about this @common prophets what about a volcano then, did Moses climb a volcano then? Instead of only a mountain? What are your thoughts, a mountain won't create fire and light type actions. What are your thoughts @2PhiloVoid where could this volcano be?

Also at this same PDF is:
Courtesy of the Louvre
“Paherypedjet son of Paser” is one of the brickmakers who fails to deliver his quota of 2,000 bricks, according to a list on
a leather scroll from the fifth year of Ramesses II, now in the Louvre. The text echoes the Biblical story: Pharaoh, angry at
Moses, stops providing the Israelites with straw for the bricks, leaving them to forage for it on their own but still requiring
them to fulfill the same quota of bricks. Pharaoh says to Moses, “‘Lazy, that’s what you are—lazy! That is why you keep
saying, “Let us go and sacrifice to the Lord.” Now get to work. You will not be given any straw, yet you must produce your
full quota of bricks’” (Exodus 5:18).

This is also in this PDF

Yet these bricks are mud bricks and only needing 1% of straw that's not enough straw so no need to gather straw, how can this cause a Pharaoh claiming lazy.

So where is this place @common prophets needing lots of straw, to make burnt bake bricks, yet still how are there slaves? How?

@2PhiloVoid

Why would a Pharaoh claim lazy for, why?

Who is this Pharaoh, what other thoughts did this Pharaoh have?

Late Date: A Historical Exodus in the Thirteenth Century BC (James K. Hoffmeier)

Exodus 5:7 You are no longer to supply the people with straw for making bricks; let them go and gather their own straw

Yet it must be from somewhere else, because at KMT build with stone and stone doesn't need straw

rvs · Jul 8, 2024

public hermit said:
We shouldn't expect the Egyptians to corroborate the Hebrew account. The winners write history, and so on, but this is interesting. The biblical account could be tracking truth and we still should not expect to find Egyptian corroboration. Why would the Egyptians recount their own defeat? That is not the stuff of Egyptian history. lol. I wonder about the use of "Semitic peoples." As a term, it hardly;y makes sense pre-Exodus, extra-biblical. That term included Arabs and a whole host of folks in the relevant time period, according to antiquated ways of tracking such things..

@public hermit
Exodus from Indus Valley, India, due to drought, the Yadavas, who have the R M124 gene, left from Indus Valley, India, in 1445 BC and traveled to Yisrael.

Exodus took place from the Indus Valley to India to Yisrael, and the Yadavas later changed their name to the Hebrews.

@public hermit you wrote, "Yeah why would the Egyptians recount their own defeat? That is not the stuff of Egyptian history."

My thoughts, There's no defeat, because no slaves., the Yadavas who are the Hebrews weren't slaves to the Egyptians. Instead the KMT land increased that even Yisrael was KMT land as the increase land of the Levant. There's no state of Israel, instead it's increased land of KMT and Israel is derived from the Sanskrit word Ishwaralaya, which means Isha or Krishna God

@common prophets knows a lot more then me, so I'm looking forward hearing from @common prophets about this

rvs · Jul 8, 2024

@public hermit I need to make correction with my message above this message. It won't let me make correction because ran out of time for correction

rvs said:
Exodus took place from the Indus Valley to India to Yisrael, and the Yadavas later changed their name to the Hebrews.

The correction is: Exodus took place from the Indus Valley (India) to Yisrael, and the Yadavas later changed their name to the Hebrews.

Added info: I include more modern name such as India to show location.

common prophets · Jul 8, 2024

See, there are two levels of evidence. One is direct and another is indirect. The direct evidence for slavery would be large constructions of bricks with lots of straw and the indirect evidence as mentioned in this video is about images. But whether those images were widespread, whether they were imagination and what is their background, we don't know. All I can say is that as far as the hard evidence is concerned, we have use of mud bricks only for servant quarters and the like. The palaces and residences of the elite were made with stone. Secondly, even these mud bricks used only 1% straw. So, to my mind why would the Pharaoh ask the Hebrews to gather straw when there was only 1% of straw required for making mud bricks and that too for the housing of the workers such as the Hebrews. So instead of denying them straw, the Pharaoh could simply say, I will not provide you with a house and you make your own house. So, the fact that Pharaoh says that I will not give you straw indicates that straw was a major ingredient and that indicates that this event happened at some place where baked bricks were made. I have visited some baked brick manufacturing kilns in India and they say that about 50% of the cost of making baked bricks is from the fuel or the straw. So, it would make much more sense for the Pharaoh to ask the Hebrews to gather straw if they were located in India, because straw was an important ingredient in making up the baked bricks.

rvs · Jul 25, 2024

public hermit said:
We shouldn't expect the Egyptians to corroborate the Hebrew account. The winners write history, and so on, but this is interesting. The biblical account could be tracking truth and we still should not expect to find Egyptian corroboration. Why would the Egyptians recount their own defeat? That is not the stuff of Egyptian history. lol. I wonder about the use of "Semitic peoples." As a term, it hardly;y makes sense pre-Exodus, extra-biblical. That term included Arabs and a whole host of folks in the relevant time period, according to antiquated ways of tracking such things..

@common prophets and @public hermit

My responds to post from @public hermit
Were the Yadavas from India who traveled to Israel able to write any history?

What about Yadavas from India who traveled to Israel? Is there any R-M124 DNA gene proof that would confirm this? Because the R-M124 DNA gene is found in Jews.

@public hermit
In your post, you wrote Arabs. Do Arabs have any R-M124 DNA genes? Do you know of any?

@public hermit and @common prophets

Topic of thread: Evidence of Hebrew Slavery in Egypt?

I do not think the Hebrews were slaves because they brought gold with them and could cast a golden calf. Slaves do not own gold, and if they do, how did they get it? Through occupation or trading. Slaves are held by the master, who controls all items, including gold. How did slaves bring gold with them? Hebrews earned and/or traded, which they then brought with them when they traveled.

Added information
@common prophets

Are Jews descendants of Lord Krishna?

While discussing this issue with some of Hindu friends and interreligious students, i came to know that some Hindus and scholars these days believe and studying that there is a great possibility of Jews originally as descendants of Lord Krishna. What do you think about this?

www.christianforums.com

2 post in that thread said:
Lord Krishna belongs to Yadava clan. It's believed that many Yadavs after mighty Mahabharata war left India. I am still studying this interreligious connection and have not reached any final conclusion but i believe there is a every possibility.

My question to you @common prophets about this post: was it then that the Yadavas traveled to Israel or was it later?

Evidence of Hebrew Slavery in Egypt?

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Signs of Israelite Slavery in Egypt - The Exodus​

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Signs of Israelite Slavery in Egypt - The Exodus​

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